The Bridge

3:00 PM

That's one of the very reasons a bounty exists. When your question already exists, but the answers don't meet your needs.

Batophobia

@badp nope

Frank

@badp If the preferred solution was on-topic, yes, it would be.

Wipqozn

@Frank But it is on-topic, as far as answers go.

badp

@Frank but again it's encouraging a kind of answer that is allowed

Frank

This bounty is not expanding existing answers. It's jumping to a conclusion, and pulling the question into an off-topic area.

Wipqozn

3:00 PM

I just don't see much of a difference between a user posting a bounty saying "I'd prefer mods" and the OP stating "I'd prefer mods" in their original question.

badp

It's not a bounty that says "100 reps to somebody who can point me to a working, fast, non-fake torrent for this game"

Wipqozn

@Frank What conclusion is that?

Frank

@Wipqozn Please give me a mod that does X.

Rapitor

@badp game modification requests are allowed? what separates them from game recommendations

badp

That would be a bounty that encourages a disallowed answer, and I don't think anyone would try and defend it.

Batophobia

3:01 PM

@Frank So is the bounty on this question also bad?

Wipqozn

@Frank That's not a conclusion. What conclusion are they jumping to with their bounty?

Frank

@Batophobia There were no answers.

badp

@Rapitor From what I understand from the meta discussion, they can be fixed by removing the "game modification" part

Jason Berkan

None of the current answers disable death. Let's focus on that and not on the fact that he asked for a mod to do that.

badp

In the specific case, "how can I disable death with a mod" is OT, but "how can I disable death" is OK, and answers that mention a mod are also OK.

Frank

3:02 PM

@JasonBerkan We can't. That's the problem. He's specifically asking for a mod that meets his criteria.

Batophobia

@Frank So if there were no answers and the same bounty were used, it would be ok?

badp

And if "how can I disable death" is OK, "how can I disable death, if possible mention mod solutions because so and so" seems... OK to me.

Batophobia

@Frank No, he said he PREFERS a mod

badp

It's akin to the Skyrim questions we've had, where people preferred console solutions to unfuck their games but in-game solutions were still perfectly valid anyway

Otherwise we'd have two questions for every glitch in the game, one for Windows and one otherwise

It's perfectly okay to prefer one to the other, but the question has to allow both

so -- should we cancel the bounty?

Rapitor

@badp i vote yes.

badp

3:08 PM

We aren't counting hands here

@badp I vote no.

oh.

@badp We are now.

If we want to count hands we should go to meta. I'm looking for closing arguments, really :)

Wipqozn

VOTING HAS CLOSED

FINAL SCORE: 1-1
RESULT: NO ACTION DUE TO TIE
HANDSOMENESS: WIPQOZN

Batophobia

3:10 PM

@badp I think it's fine

Wipqozn

We should not refund the bounty. It's perfectly fine to say you'd prefer mod answers in a question, and so it should be fine in a bounty as well. It's also worth noting that this is exactly the course of action we want users to take when your question already exists, but doesn't have answers which satisfy you. post a bounty asking for answers which meet your preferred criteria.

Additionally, the bounty poster doesn't have any other solution. He can't ask new question saying he prefers mods since then that would be a duplicate, so his only option left is to post that bounty. If we then say…

If we ever find our selves making a decision which doesn't allow a user to get an answer to a perfectly on-topic question then we need to really step back and rethink that decision, because that's not what we want at all. It goes against the founding principals of Stack Exchange.

Batophobia

Who are you and what have you done with @Wipqozn

Wipqozn

@Batophobia I'm not sure what this means.

Batophobia

shrouded in mystery

Wipqozn

Oh good, @Sterno is just in time to disagree with @Frank.

fredley

3:20 PM

@StrixVaria First draft

Batophobia

So, Borderlands PreSequel comes out Tuesday

And apparently Evil Within

badp

@Batophobia That's preposterous

murgatroid99

@Wipqozn I agree with this, but we have to be careful. If you frame arguments about what we should allow like this, it can unfairly dismiss any argument that a question isn't on topic

Wipqozn

I assume the lack of any further replies means I've won the discussion.

@murgatroid99 I'm not sure I see what you mean.

Batophobia

@badp That's irrelephant

Frank

3:23 PM

@Wipqozn We should refund the bounty, because taken by itself, it pushes the question into an area that we specifically disallow as questions by themselves. It also pre-supposes a specific solution, which is something the asker didn't actually want nor ask for.

badp

@Batophobia You can't ignore the irrelephant behind the mousetain

murgatroid99

@Wipqozn If someone says "this question is off topic" and you respond with that sentence, then it dismisses the argument without hearing it

Wipqozn

What I'm saying is we have a user with aquestion which is on-topic: "How do I do X? I'd prefer a mod solution". Their core question "How do I do X?" has already been asked, but none of the answers meets their criteria. The action they are supposed to take is to post a bounty. If we then say they can't post a bounty, then we're not letting them get an answer to their on-topic question.

@murgatroid99 Not really. I think you misundertood my point, which is why I tried to rephrase it above.

fredley

@StrixVaria Need to adjust the price function so that it scales a bit better, but that's about it.

Frank

@Wipqozn The asker has a question. The bountier has a specific solution he wants. Which is off-topic.

Wipqozn

3:24 PM

@Frank But it's not.

Frank

@Wipqozn As a question, all by itself, yes, it is.

Wipqozn

Mods are not an off-topic solution, nor is stating you prefer a mod solution.

@Frank but it's not. It's an extension to the question.

Frank

@Wipqozn No, it's a hijacking of the question.

Batophobia

@fredley Incremental math, wow

Wipqozn

If this original question didn't exist, and the user asked the exact same question with "I prefer amod" there wouldn't be any problem at all.

Frank

3:25 PM

It pushes it in a direction that was not wanted.

Wipqozn

@Frank Answers are for everyone, not just the asker. That's another user bounties exist.

Frank

@Wipqozn Except the bountier didn't ask the question.

Wipqozn

@Frank which is why bounties exist.

fredley

@Batophobia It's basically finished. It took 30 minutes.

Fastest game development ever

Frank

@Wipqozn No. This hijacks the question, wanting a specific solution to a problem the asker didn't want.

murgatroid99

3:27 PM

@Wipqozn yeah, I'm not explaining myself very well. I agree with you in this situation.

Frank

Great, now @Wipqozn's rubbed off on me.

Batophobia

@Frank Bounties partially exist so you can expand on existing questions without asking duplicates

Jason Berkan

The solution to the bounty is a solution to the original question.

Wipqozn

@Frank I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Frank

@Batophobia Not expand it into an off-topic question.

Wipqozn

3:27 PM

The user is saking for a new solution to the original question.

@Frank But it's not expanded into off-topic.

Frank

@Wipqozn Yes, it is.

Wipqozn

It's expanded into the original question with "I'd prefer a mod" added.

Frank

Mod recommendations, by themselves, without a problem, are off-topic.

Batophobia

@Frank It's not expanding to off topic, it's saying, "I never got an answer that removes death. If there is a mod, that would be great."

Wipqozn

There's nothing wrong with saying you'd prefer a solution which makes use of a mod.

Frank

3:28 PM

@Batophobia That's pre-supposing the solution.

Which is one of the problems with mod recs in the first place.

Batophobia

@Frank No, it's saying "There is no answer that fully solves the problem"

It's no different then asking how to do something WITHOUT mods

MBraedley

@Frank Yes, but preferring to use a mod in order to solve a problem is not off-topic

Frank

@Batophobia No, it's saying, "There is no answer that fully solves my problem." Which, if asked as a standalone question, would get closed.

The custom text doesn't even match the bounty reason chosen.

murgatroid99

@Frank I have to agree with the others here. I think you would be right if they limited the solution space by saying "Only mod answers are correct," but there is nothing wrong in a question with saying some kinds of answers are more useful to you

Frank

@murgatroid99 That's exactly what the bounty text is doing.

Batophobia

3:31 PM

@Frank Which of the answers fully removes dying?

murgatroid99

@Frank Then I don't think you understand the word "preferred" the same as I do

Frank

@Batophobia Doesn't matter. That's not what was asked.

Wipqozn

@Frank Are we talking about the same question...?

> How can I play in survival mode but make it such that things don't hurt? I'm hoping somebody could suggest a way/mod for me that simply takes away damage without getting in the way.

Jason Berkan

@Frank Preferred: A mod that would completely disable death.

Wipqozn

In fact he events mentions mods in the original question.

Frank

3:32 PM

@JasonBerkan Yes, which is off-topic.

It's a totally different question tagging along with the original.

murgatroid99

@Frank Would you be OK with "A method that completely disables death, possibly including a mod"?

Batophobia

@Frank He did not ask for a mod, he asked for a solution, which he would prefer mods

Would you be ok with "A method that completely disables death without mods"?

Jason Berkan

@Frank Completely disabling death is off-topic?

Frank

This is getting into magic word syndrome. Everyone is using the word preferred to justify the bounty's existence.

Batophobia

@JasonBerkan specifically asking for a mod

murgatroid99

3:34 PM

@Frank See, I think you are using the wording to justify removing the bounty

Wipqozn

@Frank Because the word preferred makes ahuge difference.

Frank

The existence of the bounty itself is asking for a mod that meets certain criteria.

murgatroid99

@Frank If the bounty didn't specify that it had to be a mod, would you still want to get rid of it?

Frank

Which will push new answers straight into mod recommendations, regardless of what the asker asked for.

Batophobia

@Frank If they did the opposite and asked for a non-mod solution, would that be ok?

Wipqozn

3:35 PM

@Frank The asker does mention mods in his original question, actually.

> I'm hoping somebody could suggest a way/mod for me that simply takes away damage without getting in the way.

emphasis mine

Frank

@Batophobia No, because that would already be answered in the existing answers, obviating the need for a bounty in the first place.

GnomeSlice

@PrivatePansy You should try Great Permutator

Batophobia

@Frank assume different question where only answer is through a mod

You can't say making a bounty for a strictly vanilla solution is ok while asking for a mod solution is not

Jason Berkan

@Frank It is not. None of the answers currently disable death.

Frank

@Batophobia As long as it actually focused on the problem he was having, without trying to focus on a specific solution, yes, I would be okay with that.

@JasonBerkan But provide plenty of workarounds that solve the problem space. Which is great.

Wipqozn

3:37 PM

@Frank There's nothing wrong with bounties focusing on a specific solution though. That's why bounties exist.

Frank

@Wipqozn If the bounty, by itself, would be an off-topic question, yes, that is wrong.

Batophobia

@Frank This is exactly the case here, just reverse it

Frank

I can't ask one question, go, "Hey, now I want you to give me this solution that's actually off-topic."

Batophobia

@Frank Then rewarding extra rep via bounties is wrong since that is not a real question

Wipqozn

@Frank Okay, let's try this from a different angle. Let's assume this question never existed to begin with. The bounty poster comes along and asks this "How can I play in survival mode but make it such that things don't hurt? I'm hoping somebody could suggest a way/mod for me that simply takes away damage without getting in the way. I'd prefer an answer which makes use of a mod." Would you be okay with that question?

Frank

3:38 PM

@Batophobia Custom text is there to help explain the problem better. Not use it to ask an off-topic question.

GnomeSlice

Ultratron Soundtrack, for those who enjoyed it.

Wipqozn

@Frank Mods aren't off-topic solutions though!

GnomeSlice

Also available as DLC on steam, but that's dumb.

Wipqozn

That's what we're saying.

Frank

@Wipqozn That's the question that was asked. I don't like it, but I'm alright with letting it go.

@Wipqozn as solutions.

Asking for a mod that meets specific criteria, is.

That is what the bounty is doing.

Wipqozn

3:40 PM

@Frank I made an addition ot it, highlighted in bold. Do you think that bolded addition makes the question off-topic?

Batophobia

This seems to continue skirting around a single issue. Should bounties be judged as stand-alone questions?

Wipqozn

@Batophobia No, not at all.

Jason Berkan

@Batophobia No.

Frank

@Wipqozn The highlighted section is irrelevant. It doesn't change the question.

Wipqozn

If a bounty could stand independent from the question then it should have been asked sa it's own question.

Bounties are an addition to the quesiton.

GnomeSlice

3:41 PM

What are we arguing about today?

Wipqozn

@Frank Exactly! That's what we're saying.We're saying that the bounty appends that to the question. It doesn't change the question in anyway.

Frank

Bounties need to at least be held to a higher standard than questions, due to their protected status.

Batophobia

@GnomeSlice The bounty on this question

Frank

@Wipqozn Yes, it does.

That's that's I'm saying.

Wipqozn

@Frank then I'm afraid I don't understand your reasoning at all.

Frank

3:42 PM

It's an XY problem, in an off-topic space.

Wipqozn

@Frank I don't agree at all.

And this just comes back to having a policy which makes it so a user can't get an answer to their perfectly valid on-topic question.

Frank

@Wipqozn If the bountier asked that question, just the bounty text, by itself, would it be on-topic?

GnomeSlice

If you want to add a bounty looking for something a little more specific, I see no issue with that.

The bounty doesn't have to be awarded to the asker's accepted answer.

Batophobia

@Frank Bounty does not equal question

Wipqozn

@Frank: IF the bounty posted asked a new question, which was "I'm looking for a way to completely disable death in Minecraft, because reasons. I'd prefer a solution which makes use of a mod", would you close it as a duplicate?

Frank

3:44 PM

@Batophobia When it changes the problem space, it has to be looked at as a separate entity.

@Wipqozn According to our policy, no, that wouldn't be a dupe.

GnomeSlice

@Frank It just modifies it slightly, but it's just an optional addition to the question. You can still answer it without addressing the bounty's request.

Batophobia

@Frank That would definitely be closed as a dupe

Wipqozn

@Frank Okay, so you think that "disable death" is different than "take no damage"?

Frank

@Batophobia Why? According to our own policy, we only close exact dupes.

GnomeSlice

Man it would be nice if I could participate in this discussion.

Frank

3:45 PM

@Wipqozn According to our policy, it is.

GnomeSlice

Oh well.

Frank

I think it's similar enough to dupe, personally, but not according to our policy.

Sconibulus

"take no damage" does seem different than "disable death", neither is a strict subset of the other

but I can see how most of the answers would overlap

Wipqozn

@Frank Okay, I can see why you could think that.

I disagree, though, especially if you rtead the original question.

Batophobia

@Frank Then that policy is loosely followed

Sconibulus

3:46 PM

"disable death" would probably do something "take no damage" wouldn't, like prevent /kill from working

Wipqozn

The OP has a problem with dying. They want a way to play Minecraft without needing to die, but still needing to collect resources.

GnomeSlice

You guys are arguing semantics

Sconibulus

and "take no damage" might well do something that "disable death" wouldn't, like protect worn armour

Wipqozn

@GnomeSlice I agree. I think that "take no damage" and "disable death" means the same thing in this case.

In both cases the users just want a way to play Minecraft in non-creative mode without dying.

GnomeSlice

Both cases? Are there two questions?

Wipqozn

3:48 PM

We don't need two questions for that. one with "disables death" and "take no damage", because they're both looking for the exact same thing and have the same problem. They just worded it differently.

@GnomeSlice Let me grab you a link, just a sec

28

Q: Minecraft, without the death?

I think Minecraft is fun for its progression. First you start with a plain world that you sculpt, mine and craft to your choosing or (with mods for example) you start with a system that's small, tedious, or inefficient that you upgrade to be large scale and fast. It's this "building up" that I l...

minecraft

Bounty text:

> Preferred: A mod that would completely disable death.

GnomeSlice

Right, that's what I thought we were talking about.

Wipqozn

The bounty poster is different than the asker.

Frank

@Wipqozn And the bounty jumps to a single solution, which is an XY problem, which is one of the reasons we edit questions to bring the problem to the fore.

GnomeSlice

5 mins ago, by GnomeSlice

If you want to add a bounty looking for something a little more specific, I see no issue with that.

4 mins ago, by GnomeSlice

@Frank It just modifies it slightly, but it's just an optional addition to the question. You can still answer it without addressing the bounty's request.

In my opinion

Frank

If we could do that to the bounty, I'd want to see what problem the bountier is trying to solve.

Wipqozn

3:49 PM

@Frank Except it doesn't. Stating you prefer a solution is not the same as saying only provide me with this solution.

GnomeSlice

@Frank Irrelevant.

Frank

Which could make it a dupe. I dunno.

@Wipqozn You're playing magic word syndrome.

Wipqozn

@Frank No, I'm not, at all.

Jason Berkan

@Frank The exact same problem as the original asker - to play without dying. They just want a different solution.

GnomeSlice

@JasonBerkan This.

Wipqozn

3:50 PM

Words have meaning. You can't just dismiss part of the sentence when it's not significant.

Frank

@Wipqozn If the bounty text was just, "I want a mod that completely disables death", would that be a valid bounty?

Batophobia

"Words have [...] the sentence [...] it's not significant."

GnomeSlice

@Frank Sure.

If nobody posted a mod he wanted, the bounty simply wouldn't get awarded

Frank

@JasonBerkan No, it's a different problem space.

GnomeSlice

bounties are a great way to encourage people to go a little extra mile, or look for something more specific

Batophobia

3:52 PM

@Frank It's the same problem space, it's asking for different solutions

Jason Berkan

@Frank Go on. You need more than that to convince me.

Frank

The question is asking something entirely different. He just wants to enjoy survival mode. Of which, there could be many different ways to do it.

I think it's a bit of a broad space, but whatever. I'm alright with the question as is.

Unionhawk

Mronings

What the hell minecraft question are we arguing/talking at frank about this time?

4

GnomeSlice

The bounty is just requesting a slightly more specifically oriented answer, there's nothing wrong with a question having multiple different solutions.

28

Q: Minecraft, without the death?

I think Minecraft is fun for its progression. First you start with a plain world that you sculpt, mine and craft to your choosing or (with mods for example) you start with a system that's small, tedious, or inefficient that you upgrade to be large scale and fast. It's this "building up" that I l...

minecraft

StrixVaria

@fredley I love this game.

GnomeSlice

3:54 PM

The bounty text is what's causing problems.

fredley

@StrixVaria I'm working live on that version, breakage may happen

StrixVaria

@fredley No problem. I only looked at it long enough to understand where you're going with it.

It's lunchtime right now anyway.

Frank

The bountier could be having the having the same problem. I don't know. We have, I think, "I enjoy survival mode. But I don't like death. What mods can disable death entirely?"

fredley

@StrixVaria I'm doing procedurally generated achievements atm

Wipqozn

@Frank Don't assume negative intent.

Frank

3:56 PM

@Wipqozn ...There's no negative intent in there.

Or at least, not that I'm seeing.

Wipqozn

@Frank Off-topic intent, whatever.

Frank

@Wipqozn Well, let me finish, then. :P

Wipqozn

The point is that you're assuming the user is doing something wrong whn you're notsure if they are.

Jason Berkan

@Frank Given that they bountied this question, it is fairly safe to assume they have the same issue, and given that there are different ways to enjoy survival mode, they are asking for more details on one way that has yet to be provided in the answers.

GnomeSlice

@JasonBerkan this

SaintWacko

3:57 PM

The new Nexus 9 tablet looks so pretty

Wipqozn

@JasonBerkan Exactly. To think otherwise is to just assume the asker is doing something wrong for no good reason.

Batophobia

@Frank If you want to quote the bounty, please quote it: "Preferred: A mod that would completely disable death"

Frank

@JasonBerkan I can see where you guys are coming from. You're taking the bounty and the question together as a single entity, which the bounty just prioritizes a single type of solution over another.

Wipqozn

If you want more details on why they want that solution then ask them. Maybe they are having a completely different problem, in which case maybe a new question would be a good idea.

Frank

@Batophobia I'm trying to expand it beyond just the bounty text.

GnomeSlice

3:58 PM

@Frank That's exactly what we're doing.

Wipqozn

However without any other context we should assume the user is having the same problem.

GnomeSlice

Who even cares what problem the user is personally having, as long as it's a valid problem on the site.

Frank

I'm not seeing the bounty as in the same problem space as the actual question, though.

Batophobia

@Frank Which will inject intentions that may not have been meant

Jason Berkan

@Frank Why wouldn't we? They are a single entity.

murgatroid99

3:58 PM

@Frank I think that the bountier wanted a solution that disables death completely, and from the answers a mod seems like the only way to do that

Frank

@Batophobia Yes, I'm making assumptions. You have to, as a separate entity, it would be an off-topic question, no?

46 secs ago, by Frank

I'm not seeing the bounty as in the same problem space as the actual question, though.

Batophobia

@Frank But bounties are attached to questions, so they must be taken with the question

Jason Berkan

@Frank And you still haven't convinced me they aren't.

Wipqozn

@GnomeSlice I agree, but if it's a different problem then one could argue it would be better to ask a whole new question than post a bounty. I don't think that means the bounty should be removed, but I can certainly understand why intent would matter to frank.

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