@BartSilverstrim Well the 2.2L was like having 4 hamsters on wheels under the hood. The 2.3L was like having a real engine, small as it was.

@BartSilverstrim, it is an extremely complicated issue, and the problem is a lot of people simply don't care to educate themselves about all the facets, but harp on "executive pay" and "welfare queens" and any one of a number of other things that make good press, but when it comes down to it, are not the "biggest" problems, just the most visible

I knew someone who Dynoed their 2.2L stock; GM rated it at 110HP, but his dynoed at ~70WHP.

Private-sector companies aren't inherently evil, they just like to maximize stockholder value as opposed to customer interests. Public companies aren't inherently evil either, but they have (generally) no interest in maximizing stock holder value, so they aren't run "efficiently"

@Aaron If I'm the CEO of a company that gainfully employees thousands of people and provides a useful service or product, chances are I'm working 80 hour weeks, don't take vacation, and have a shitload of weight resting on me. You sure as shit better believe that I want some serious compensation.

HA! New Friday vid? youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=KlyXNRrsk4A

What they don't understand is that if companies can't pay a lot to attract top execs, shit is just going to fall apart.

@Aaron Welfare Queens and Executive Pay are problems though... I'm really not sure that Education alone would fix them.

I'm not so sure about that, necessarily. That's the picture painted by people of CEO's, but there's some other research about that too...

Unless you're HP and your CEO tries to kill all of your products. Then you're kinda screwed either way.

@MarkM, true as well - you never hear about all the execs that are doing a good job

There are business people who are really addicted to running businesses.

But there is evidence that most "successful" CEO's are sociopaths.

@BartSilverstrim Uh.. "Published on Jun 12, 2011"

@MarkM That doesn't happen to the rest of the world... Why would it happen in the US?

@ChrisS, if "executive pay" is a problem, don't buy shares in that company. If you like the dividends and ROI that company gives you, well, then, you have to decide if you value your "values" or your profits

I've posed this question before and didn't get any satisfactory answers, @ChrisS

Most executive pay that comes from the boards are also heavily influenced by the CEO and boards in a circle jerk fashion.

America is the only place where a CEO makes 100's of times more than their employees.

On average.

@Aaron When you're only choice are Companys A, B, and C; and they're all paying their CEO 15% of Revenue... What choice do you have?

We also have corporations that take bailout money and then pay execs that ran their businesses into the ground millions in "go away" parachutes.

I'm going to go occupy the union and get some food. Back in a few.

Are you talking as a "customer" or as an "investor"

@BartSilverstrim Exactly, we're not talking about supply and demand; we're talking about the good old boys doing each other favors.

These same people turn around and say you get what you deserve and get what you work for...Bank of America paid that guy what, four million to leave?

@Aaron Both, or Either...

I wish I could get paid four million dollars to be fired.

@ChrisS, then I would buy shares and bring up an amendment to the board

And I'd like to know what the definition of work really hard is. I know farmers that work really hard, and they didn't get shit until the gas companies leased their land.

@Aaron Amendment denied. Ha ha, you aren't in the Good Old Boys club.

@ChrisS, the board doesn't vote on amendments, the shareholders do

Oh, and social mobility is low in America too. For the most part the "work hard to get ahead" thing is a function of social class, not how hard you work.

How many shareholders are voting on this? Common shares or one of the other share types with voting privileges or favored voting status?

@Aaron You have insufficient votes to actually accomplish anything... See previous statement. =]

I see these things in my stock proxy and annual reports all the time

lol @ South Korean Parliament

(And yes, I do fill them out and return them)

And how many of the shares are actually divvied out in common stock compared to the people that between them own 30% or more of the company still?

they are always brawling

one of them let off a tear gas canister to try to stop a vote

(I especially vote yes on the ones for my company that allow the compensation committee to hand out more stock awards)

@BartSilverstrim I partially disagree; but social mobility is heavily hindered by the "baggage" you inherit from your starting social class

It's great to see people who still believe in the system. They're the ones that blame you for not voting for the president or congressmen, not understanding that you're voting for a red herring. Do you want to elect a fox or a wolf to watch the hen house?

@ChrisS: There are studies on social mobility in America. Overall it's very low.

@Aaron You're a good stock owner; unfortunately, that's not normal.

The barrier to success for people is quite high if you're not born into a successful family to begin with.

You really think Palin's kid would be making this much cash if not for her idiot mom? Or the Hilton's?

Or the whole Bush family? Kennedy's?

My lord if you read what Bush Jr's life was before the white house it was like he was functionally retarded. He's the only guy to not be able to strike oil in Texas and STILL got tons of money from it.

Right; I guess my point is that for most people, it's a choice. They might be heavily influenced by their current situation. But it's still their choice.. Something like smoking, you might be addicted, but that next cigarette ain't gonna light itself.

There are exceptions, but on average, you're going to be stuck where you are without a good bit of luck.

Bad choice of analogy when your parents smoke and you're stuck in the house :-)

They're deep frying a turkey for lunch. I can smell it.

@BartSilverstrim Actually I think that's a good analogy. =]

There's a bit of a cultural desire to blame people for everything, blame themselves. While discounting outside influence. Yes, it's your fault for lighting up. But what about the people that told you how cool it was? And your peers? Even Fred Flintstone sold cigarettes for awhile. They were "okay."

We overestimate our lack of bias.

I've been watching more closely now that I have a kid...the influence of ads.

It's amazing.

I cut off our satellite now and we don't have TV ads, but he gets them at his grandparents. My god...I didn't realize just how PERVASIVE ads are and what we do to react to them.

We are constantly bombarded with things that influence our behaviors. And I think that helped us get to where we are.

Fast food? cheap, easy, convenient...fattening.

BUT IT'S YOUR FAULT YOU'RE FAT, FATTY!

Here, have another big mac...

Ever watch those ads? The food they eat is in the same quantities as the average person would eat to actually OVEReat.

But the imagery is so ingrained and "normal" that we eat what we think is a normal portion, when in reality it's not.

But it's YOUR fault you didn't research it on your own! It's not our fault our ads and average portion sizes are three to five times what they were 25 years ago.

I've always wondered why commercials targeted at children are allowed in certain countries

Hey, McDonalds removed the "super size option" from the menu in response! They're on our side, right!

(cause they aren't in norway)

Moves away from the smoking stereotypes, but it sticks with the simple, boiled down "personal responsibility" argument.

I'll see your "It's my fault" advertising and raise you a "It's McD's fault the coffee was too hot" for $100M.

It's your fault you bought a house you can't afford! Even though the bank okayed the loans, knowing you probably couldn't afford it, and the people who can barely do math or figure out what an APR is took their word for it.

Trying to explain credit to my gf is a fucking chore

Because like most people, she's focused on what she wants, not how to get it.

Speaking on those loans, I am somewhat mystified by the people who "have been in a house for 20 years, and now the bank is taking it from me!"

@BartSilverstrim My Credit Union was very up front with the max loan and reasonable max numbers. I could loan a max of about twice what they recommended I spend on a house.

like on Marketplace Money, for example

We want houses. We're told that's a mark of success in America. So we go to the bank and go through the steps to get a house, they said this would be okay, sign the papers, and viola', own a house.

Thats one reason, the other is because any math above 1 + 1 is a challenge for her. And that's ok, because she has an amazing art mind....just sucks terribly at math

turns out they always say in the fine print "oh by the way, they refinanced to take advantage of the equity in the house to blahblahblahblah"

@Aaron I annoyed my car dealer so much by reading every line in my loan agreement that he took off an extra $1k if I read quicker...I didn't anyway

LUNCH TIME!! =]

We (average people) trusted the bankers to know what they're doing with money and if they said this was okay, we nod and sign.

@Shads0, play her the SNL skit: consumerist.com/2007/04/…

Don't tell me that you've read every line of a software agreement :-)

@Aaron Ever try to convince a stubborn woman she doesn't need something?....

But what if I have the money now, can I buy it? Yes. Ok, same situation, but take the money away, same answer" No. This sounds hard!

Just trust it and nod and move on...

@BartSilverstrim Ok, I won't tell you

Well, there's always some freak out there.

@Shads0, I didn't say that it would have any effect, but it would make you laugh, that's for sure

I like being a freak >=D

But on average, the attitude of "screw them if they're too stupid because I was smart enough not to fall for it" is very selfish and narcissistic. When the community fails, everyone will be effected eventually.

Selfish and narcissistic? Why, my son, you've just defined capitalism!

storagereview.com/intel_bringing_trim_support_raid0_rst_115

Crime rates, businesses no longer getting sales because people can't afford buying, taxes fall...

consumer SSD's in raid10 on pizza box servers suddenly got a bit more interesting..

well, taxes don't fall, but income does as people just don't pay them.

Hell, just because my parents don't read their phone bill, I read it one day and found they were overpaying by $200 because of these random companies that got the info and were charging us for "25MB of voicemail", you'd be surprised how little people read.

That's the thing I hear when I hear people saying that others are entitled and stupid for getting into debts and trouble. There are people that have definitely overstepped bounds and have been obviously stupid, but there are many others that really were average people who believed what they were told was alright, and in a way were manipulated into it.

@BartSilverstrim, property taxes fall due to lowered assesments and that's how all the localities are in all the trouble they're in now

And dismissing the problem when it is widespread, and affecting more and more of the community, is plain stupid. It'll eventually kill the community.

Shit, we over spent on park and schools when we had all sorts of rising property values, what do we now ??!!??

Basically it's not a question of whether it's their own fault or not (I don't hear too many people asking who enabled them in the first place...) but rather, what can be done to fix the damage?

@BartSilverstrim I dunno man. I feel that I'm accountable for every dollar that I spend and every dollar in debt that I take on. It's not some banker's fault if I get into trouble. Loans are simple math. Everyone knows their income. Everyone should be able to figure out what their means are.

I'm not so sure it's that easy, that loans are that simple.

Sometimes you are in position A when you get it, but later you're in position B.

The problem is figuring out "means" for things that have variable expenses, or variable income

Such as healthcare? Some don't expect cancer to bankrupt you.

@BartSilverstrim Doesn't matter. The first thing that I ask is worst-case scenerio. If I can't make it work worst-case, I don't do it.

see variable expenses: medical problems! variable income: medical problems!

We just had a shitload of people lose their homes because of flooding not seen in 30 years.

@MarkM, define worst case.. if you get fired and can't find work, you're fairly SOL

I mean, I can't afford a mortgage working at a mcdonalds

@Aaron I'm talking about the people that took loans out that had interest rates variable up to 20%

Shit like that is just stupid

@MarkM, it is stupid

I don't know what the one guy here has for a position...he JUST got hire as a teacher. Lost his leg literally months before getting the job.

@MarkM, and now the 8 houses around you have been foreclosed on and sold in short sales, which pushes down your property value.. what do you do.. .WHAT DO YOU DO

@BartSilverstrim Accidents happen. Losing your job happens. Cancer happens. I don't know what you expect the government to do about it though.

@Aaron BUY THEM ALL

Gentrification at it's finest :)

There's some really crappy things that happen. And even if you are the "smart one" that did everything "right" and so you don't have to worry about your finances...what happens when the rest of your community suffers? If our tax base goes under, what will my employer do when it comes time to cut jobs?

@MarkM: Many European countries, as I understand it, actually help with income assurance.

You have a base standard of living...and you find work.

Or, what happens when Detroit declares your neighborhood a do-over and just says "forget it" and change the whole thing into a park

America generated X jobs last year, but there's like X+10,000 people looking to fill those slots.

They pay a little more in taxes than we do, but they get more services out of it.

Jesus someone on Facebook was asking online if she should go to the doctor or not for chest/arm pains.

because she probably doesn't have insurance to cover it...

@Aaron Detroit is looking up. They're building a robocop statue after all.

I still don't know if she went or just popped some aspirin and took a nap.

@BartSilverstrim Many European countries pay substantially more taxes than we do.

They also get substantially more benefits :-)

More holiday, more services, etc.

You pays your money and you gets your services

Here, we want guns instead of services

Right now I see my taxes lining the pockets of corporate interests.../cough

@MarkM, sadly I don't think they will actually build that statue

There's this myth that independence and self-reliance gets things done in America. That's not the case. That's the myth of the old west and manifest destiny and it's great for keeping people in line.

There are things that don't work when done under a capitalist system, and there are people making tons of money sitting on their asses while claiming it's from smarts and hard work.

@Aaron Then they should just trade Matt Stafford and Calvin Johnson and roll over and die, because they have no hope without Robocop.

We have congress people making money off investment portfolios while not even doing the jobs they're elected to do.

Most of those uber-wealthy are doing it through trading and investments and other "invisible" means.

I'm sorry, but when working hard involves flying across the country to talk to other guys in 130K suits over drinks, that's not working hard to me.

Investing and trading isn't a bad way to make money

it just has a very high cost barrier to entry

No, it's not per se. But don't claim that it's because of hard work. Hard work means ending the night with advil and muscle ointments.

Hard work means losing your hair because you're stressing out.

Don't tell me that someone who cashed a payday that is 130x what his employees just cashed has it that hard.

So the only work that is hard work is physical work?

When he can retire tomorrow and live comfortably while his employees are living check to check, I don't want to hear it.

I said stressing out as well.

That isn't limited to physical work.

oh dear - this serverfault.com/questions/333548/… got into our newsletter :(

But what is their hard work? I've asked that before too.

Picks stuff up and puts it down?

oh dear - this serverfault.com/questions/333548/… got into our newsletter :(

Managing an organization of 10,000 people probably has some amount of stress involved with it - I can't say it's a responsibility I'd want for any amount of money

"He deserves the money he makes..." why? Did the guy that ran a local restaurant but ended up failing not work hard enough?

But do you know what it involves?

Or are you speculating?

Is the job hard because you don't know what it entails?

Do you go to someone whose business failed and just say you should have worked harder?

Productivity in America is higher now than in the past...

yet our buying power is stagnant.

@Iain Sigh. "Where does email to *@example.com go?" "It goes to the fucking example.com mail server, where did you think it went?"

For those of you who know what Wawa is, get their tomato soup when you have a chance, its f**#$@#$ing orgasmic

I can't say that I would want to make decisions that could affetct other people's jobs - should we expand to South America or not? If yes, and it works out, then everyone is happy. If yes, and it doesn't, people may lose their job because we spent too much capital instead of holding onto it

We are working harder and getting more done yet aren't getting paid more for it...why?

@Shads0 I saw they had Lobster Bisque the other day.

sorry for the double posting - chat is being flakey for me atm

@Shads0 I always go there wanting to get something new and I always leave with the buffalo chicken flatbread

@Shads0 where are you located?

@BartSilverstrim, we aren't getting "more money", but consumer prices of "stuff" have gone way way down

That's your problem if you don't want to make that decision, really. That's what the job is.

@PeterGrace Not a fan of seafood

?

There's only about 50 that I pass on the way wo work

@PeterGrace southern jersey

Our buying power has been stagnant...

@Shads0 ah, howdy neighbor. SEPA here like MarkM.

@MarkM I was the same with the meatball sub until i tried the breaded chicken parm, delicious

@BartSilverstrim, because you want to keep your job, and right now the supply of jobs is a lot lower then the demand?

Gas prices are rising overall, which means higher prices...

Zoredache is closer to the mark :-)

@PeterGrace Aye, I saw you talking about commuting from Pottstown to NY the other day, I have to call you moderately to extremely insane

Unions and workers are at a disadvantage now compared to the 60's/70's...the business has the advantage.

@Shads0 @MarkM the breaded chicken parm is FANTASTIC. I was a big fan of the turkey, bacon and ranch ciabatta melt but it wasn't on the menu the other day.

@BartSilverstrim, sure, see: boeing saying "fuck off" to seattle and building a plant in SC

@PeterGrace You gotta demand that s** :) I have had the fortune of having a wawa directly across the street from me, then a gas one opened up a mile down the road from that, heaven in a store

"we've had it with the strikes, and we warned you about it. Our customers, you know, the people who pay your salary, want their planes on time"

As for the making decisions bit, well, when you have enough money to retire without a care, chances are you can make decisions like who builds what where and manage people however you see fit. See, they don't care.

@PeterGrace It's gobbler season anyway. Anyone that goes to a Wawa for a sandwich and doesn't get a gobbler is a communist.

There is no such thing as being company loyal much anymore. Again, supported by studies.

@MarkM you know, I still have yet to get a gobbler. Are they good?

Used to be that you identified yourself as an IBM'er or working for HP...you were a company man. Now you're an IT guy.

@MarkM Stalin is my leader then, I get ridicule for this everytime I say it, but I hate turkey.

Companies are very willing to cut your job.

On average, anyway.

@PeterGrace It's turkey, stuffing, gravy and cranberry sauce on a shorty roll. How can it not be good?

Bottom line :-) And like I said, do a search for CEO sociopath.

There's a book on it.

@Shads0 Good thing you're pro at marching in lockstep, you fascist.

@MarkM truth, but their stuffing is kinda meh.

Sociopathy doesn't mean keeping bodies in the basement.

@BartSilverstrim, sure they are, make everyone else work harder, and they'll be scared of losing their jobs too

@PeterGrace Yeah, it's not mom's stuffing, that's for sure. It's good on the sandwich though

Probably not the best work environment if you're there just out of fear...

But really I'm curious what's going to come of OWS.

Maybe riots.

That could be interesting.

If they riot, it will just put the nail in the coffin about it all

Destroy the whole ideal

I don't know.

and confirm beliefs that they just feel entitled

Wait...how does rioting = entitlement?

This was from a girl I work with. I laughed my ass off.

By rioting, it shows you have a violent intent, and with today's media, it will give them all the fire they need to spin the whole movement that way

I don't think there's an entitlement per se, just an extremely unfocused fist-shaking and saying "everything is wrong!"

Here I thought rioting was a manifestation of mob mentality...how is it entitlement?

As funny as I thought that facebook status was, I want to be clear that I do not condone pepper spraying babies.

@MarkM Yes you do, you just don't want to be sued

You should salt them first so they cook more evenly.

I'm an olive oil guy

Rioting doesn't mean entitlement.

it's the environment! No, it's executive pay! No, it's medical care! No, it's student loans!

Although there are a number of companies that are awfully entitled to our tax money.../ahem...

Ooh! Looky! A problem that doesn't have a simple solution!...wonder how that happened...

Not directly, no. But with media coverage, they can spin it to mean so as in "They're rioting so they're just upset they didn't get what they want, what entitled babies" and then all the idiots that don't take the news with a grain of salt as they should or watch TMZ as their news will believe it.

Media will always spin stuff. Do yourself a favor and don't immediately buy into it :-)

Don't even watch the news anymore, been kinda in a news blackout because I don't know what I can trust as credible

The news in America is owned by only a few conglomerates mostly now.

Smaller companies were bought up.

You and I may be smart enough to do that, but my uncle still believes 9-11 is a job done by the government and my mother thinks that there are public schools in Iraq teaching kids to shoot at anything red, white, and blue.

They are the 99% :-)

If that's the case then you're cementing my slight idea that the 99% are just whiny morons that need to get a job

I don't have an answer. I just laid out a number of problems contributing to the situation.

You hate your family?

Nice guy... :-p

That's a long story, but most of them >.>

Everyone's stupid about something.

I still don't understand taxes. Or half the memos I get sent. Blah blah blah sign here.

But right now I'm more angry at the fuckers who wired this building, I plugged in a new phone line for someone, and it killed a line that a guy had on a different floor

I think we need to finally ratify the Congressional Apportionment Amendment, which would force there to be 1 rep for every 40k people. With far more reps, it would be far more difficult to corrupt any single individual.

But for the most part, it's fairly obvious that the playing field is uneven.

Economically, socially, etc...it's not fair.

@Zoredache you then only have to corrupt the majority of the reps

And it's bullshit that you're told all you have to do is work hard to get ahead.

@BartSilverstrim dealing drugs is hard work

There are a lot of people that worked hard and got nowhere or had it yanked from under them.

@Zoredache nah it's just more costly to achieve your goals

@Shads0, but it would be more expensive...