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2:00 PM
@SQB unfortunately, the most bizarre examples have long been deleted, but they needed to be seen to be believed.
2:10 PM
@Tinkeringbell unfortunately, no. There isn't really a silver bullet here. It might mean a core group of people doing the work until this place attracts more people.
But I think more people are trying than some of you are willing to give credit to - they just might not be as extremely active as you are. I dislike this insinuation you are making that it is just a problem of not caring enough, like there is this core group that cares and no one else cares enough or cares in the right way. And if there are people trying to do that that don't have the
needed privileges or support, then that's a direction to go in. You need to help those people get to the point where they can do those things, if they want to get there
(okay, I dislike that mobile chat does not tell you when you have made a message that is too long)
I think building up that middle ground, of users who might not spend all of their time and energy here, but who have come and have started contributing but just need some guidance on what to do might be the best place to start.
Encourage those people. Leave comments helping them, if they're in chat, point out the things they are doing that are helpful. People need to know what they're doing right just as much as what they're doing that you don't like.
2:15 PM
I get this site has some quality issues so people are really quick to point out what people aren't doing but I think there also needs to be more pointing out when people get it right.
Like okay, we have a problem with HNQ giving people faster access to tools than we'd like because they get tools before they get what the community is trying to do.
Then maybe we push to either get the Rep threshold changed if SE is willing and we make a good case
Or, we just go on a education spree, with the understanding that sometimes some people just will never get it. And knowing when to stop expending energy on those particular people trying to teach them is important.
There is no easy solution. I wish there was because I hate seeing people burn out.
I still think we could benefit from the mods helping out with the stuff that takes too long to be done consistently
Like they do on TWP
But I'm already the Cato of IPS, and everyone knows my position on that, so ah well
2:20 PM
Then you burn out the mods.
@Magisch I think the mods on here are already pretty busy.
The mods already have a lot on their plate. No need to add more.
Yeah, it has to be that they're helping, not doing it all.
Yeah they're pretty busy
Whether It's the mods or the dedicated users, you're having a small handful of people trying to solve all the problems of the site.
2:21 PM
This site already is taking its toll on users, I suspect it is doing the same for mods.
@sphennings Only until we get enough people going to take that over
@sphennings exactly. No matter if the small group is diamonded or not, having a small group at the core doing all the things isn't good.
@Ash all of that sounds amazingly reasonable, yet there is so little we here that that education spree isn't going to happen soon, the rep threshold will probably exclude a part of the we from what they are doing now... Also, helping people get to the point they can have privileges sounds dangerously like handing out upvotes as participation awards...
Ash is right. This can only be solved by getting more casual users to participate in making the site slightly better.
The stats make it look like we have a lot of people with moderation privileges but in reality we have a lot of people who could but just don't. We need to build up the people who care slowly, like TWP did. And to that end we need something to stop-gap the site from falling apart until we get there
2:22 PM
@Magisch I suspect, if I asked, they're trying hard to do this stuff already.
@Tinkeringbell nope, I don't mean give them extra Rep cookies or anything. I mean giving them encouragement, pointing out things they can do and ways they can help with the bits they already have.
I agree with all of you that we should decentralize this as much as possible, but it's not happening right now and a fix isn't feasible in the timeline it takes for the few people who do care to burn out and leave
just my 2 cents on it
@sphennings this is going to likely be a long haul baby steps thing, based on how it has gone so far.
And I think people could work to be a bit more welcoming to people who are in that middle ground.
We might have to relax our ideas of what a perfect site looks like, or change them, and I think there may be room for more wiggle there without sacrificing quality
2:26 PM
@Ash Most of the site parameters to that effect aren't ours to decide
(I apologize in advance, I do have plans with friends in a bit so I might suddenly disappear in the next half hour or so. I do want to keep chatting, so I will make a point to respond to any pings I get when I get home again)
@Magisch I'm not talking Rep thresholds or like changing fundamentals of how SE does the thing to operate because you are right, that would not make sense.
But yeah, we've been having this discussion for a couple weeks now I don't think anything has changed since then so arguing at each other is going to be unhelpful
@Ash If you're saying wiggle room without sacrificing quality, what exactly are you thinking of?
I just know that some of the community has very strict idea on what they want questions and answers to look like
2:29 PM
@Ash Ah the whole pedantry vs. squishy and read between the lines/brainstorm thing

Shog's rules for IPS

Nov 12 '17 at 19:42, 13 minutes total – 38 messages, 1 user, 0 stars

Bookmarked Nov 13 '17 at 8:15 by Magisch

I'm not going to get that started again...
This is what these are based on
@Tinkeringbell basically? Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
@Ash That's still nothing concrete
2:31 PM
@Tinkeringbell because, as I keep saying, there is no one solid silver bullet do this and things will change sort of answer.
@Magisch this is very good guidance!
I like to count myself as one of those users who:

1) asked only questions which became a HNQ (gained rep fast and easy)
2) in some degree flags problematic questions/answers/comments
3) does not participate actively in meta. I read most of the discussions but I do not ask/answer many meta posts
4) thinks the idea of this stack is awesome and would like to see it succeed

Since this discussion is about users like me, ask me anything if you think it helps with our current problem.
@Ash Yeah, but now I still have no idea if you're arguing for 'wiggle room' as in have it be as squishy as possible
@Tinkeringbell hellllllll no.
This site would make terrible jello.
2:32 PM
@Cashbee awesome! Thank you for being willing to help with this.
But I also think there is a space between being jello and being unrelenting concrete.
@Ash This is where these "strict ideas" some users have come from
(sorry, those posted out of order)
@Magisch I figured, but I think sometimes we are kinda hitting a throwing the baby out with the bathwater problem
@Ash Yeah, and I'm curious as to where that line lies because IPS is squishy by nature, so even trying to make it concrete will only give it the consistency of wet concrete...
2:34 PM
@Ash These rules are fundamentally immutable though. We can't make policy outside of that scope
That scope is what enables our site not to be closed
@Magisch I'm not arguing against those rules! I like those rules!
@Tinkeringbell that's the hard part. We kinda are in a soul crushing quicksand phase right now it seems
@Ash Oh? example?
As far as I can see, everyone is trying their best to get people involved...
@Tinkeringbell oh, shit, I phrased that badly
And is getting not(hing) much in return...
2:38 PM
I don't mean people aren't trying. I see that they are. But it's a struggle to get people to actually do the caring, is what I meant
@Ash Yeah well.. you can't make people do stuff ... is something they like to tell me as well, and a reason that has been discussed to close questions.
It's the 90/10 rule. It applies everywhere.
@Tinkeringbell unfortunately, yeah, you can't force people to care
@RichardU that's actually not a bad way of understanding it
@Ash but you CAN get them to STOP caring
2:40 PM
@RichardU yep. You can take the people who care a little and crush them and push them away quite easily.
@RichardU Can you? Then please help me... Might save me a lot of trouble
@Tinkeringbell in any endeavor, 10 percent of the people are going to do 90% of the work.
this is not fun if you're one of them
but it's the way it is.
@Tinkeringbell It's really easy tbh it's happening right now as I see 2 more bad upvoted answers for one where I was able to delete
Alright, I think I gotta get up and do the stuff so I can head out <3 feel free to keep pinging me if needed or wanted, I will respond when I can.
@Tinkeringbell also, it's hard for that 10% to not burn out. There comes a point when you need to realize your own limitations and don't take on too much. Be ready to walk away if things get too messy. If you can step back when it gets to be too much, you can always step forward again, but not if you allow it to burn you out.
2:47 PM
A: Any way to hide questions in Hot Network Questions, based on tag

SQBA good technical solution would be to allow mods to exclude questions from specific tags from appearing on the HNQ. Impact would be low, since filtering is not done per user, so it does not have to take each user's preferences into account. This would simply prevent questions within a tag from ...

My partial solution to the HNQ-problems.
@RichardU Trust me, I'm not going to let it burn me out. I've taken more breaks lately than you can imagine... Although I'm back in chat today, and on meta, I'm going to stay away from main for a while...
Although that may be exactly what some people want, it's what I feel makes life bearable here
@Tinkeringbell never let what others want color your judgment either way.
I wonder if it's taking such a toll on you why you're subjecting yourself to this
@Magisch Well, someone on the internet is wrong, isn't that reason enough? ;)
@Magisch It's not taking a toll on me... Why would you think that?
That's why I take the breaks
2:50 PM
@Tinkeringbell I get that vibe
Btw, I did that long before all this became an issue...
@Magisch Stop reading between the lines then
It's already an issue on this site...
@Tinkeringbell But I only just (figuratively) learned how do to that...
How to do what? Read between the lines or stop doing it?
reading between the lines
it's extremely important at work
@Magisch Well, it's a problem here ... it encourages the entire brainstorming problem
Maybe keep work and SE separated then...
Btw @Cashbee your recent participation is one of the reasons why I think raising reputation thresholds might not be such a good idea, there's a precious few lower rep people caring already, excluding them from certain activities might not help
@Magisch, how's the data coming along? Have you tried anything JAD suggested and did it work?
2:55 PM
@Tinkeringbell tbh no
hard to find the willpower to try parsing arbitrary json with tsql today
-1 for effort then :P
3:25 PM
@Mithrandir You around?
What's up?
I'm confused by a custom comment flag you left.
You said that a user's posted lots of chatty comments but they've only ever posted five total, including deleted ones?
Which... happens to be every single one of their comments, no?
Sure. But only three of them have been posted in recent history. We have users who've posted hundreds of chatty comments and no custom flag, so I was confused why this one user.
I can't keep track of every chatty user... I just happened to notice this one.
@Catija I don't make it a point to search out chatty users. I just happened to notice this one, and flagged them.
3:30 PM
> I don't mean to suggest that I loved you the best
I can't keep track of each fallen robin
3:46 PM
Q: how to raise the discussion level?

miyokuI'm wondering how to switch from from small-talk to more deep talk with people. I know it can be quite blur as there is no real border between the two. But let me explain what i mean by that: In fact, when I discuss with people. I rarely bounce on what they say until something hit me because i j...

3:57 PM
I think IPS is doing far better than what I had imagined when I joined. Which is nice. It does have a lot of room for improvement, though.
@EriktheOutgolfer (coughs) Thanks :)
@Tinkeringbell I mean i have 2.5k rep here currently, but it all comes from 2 questions and 2 answers. I don't think I should have mod tools and all after that. But on the other hand, I have been lurking here since almost the beginning of this stack, and am in the chat when at work. So I do know a little more than other 1-hit-wonders.

Personally I don't see myself as any kind of mod here, and I'm also not too familiar with the policies and discussions that were made a while ago. That is why I flag only very obvious posts/comments. If i'm unsure if I should flag something I ask here.
You do just fine. :)
Help out any way you can.
Hmmm... There's still a little matter of deleting stuff, I left a comment asking about that. I am hoping Magisch can get some data together though (or I might try myself), since I have an inkling there's a few people that are actually trying to do the right thing with the privs they have now (even if that may have been after a one-hit wonder) and it would be a shame if those were banned from doing stuff,
I'm also curious to see how many people above 3k regularly use their privs 'the right way'
There's an interesting discussion on Worldbuilding meta about how to participate on that exchange as a high rep individual.
A lot of that is applicable here too.
4:10 PM
@sphennings A link would be nice then...
Q: What does being a 'Contributor' look like on Worldbuilding?

Tim B   III've been on Worldbuilding now for just (10 minutes as I write this) over 4 months, after noticing the question about lights being needed on space ships in November. I've really enjoyed my time here; sure there have been a few hiccups but for the most part the community has been quite accepting o...

The conclusion of their discussion is that there's a lot that high rep individuals can do but it's not expected for anyone to do all of it.
@sphennings Which is sorta exactly what I've been doing so far, so I'm good. One week I'm busy flagging stuff, the other I'm trying to get a good policy going on meta...
@Tinkeringbell I wasn't directing that at you in particular.
@sphennings Who says that?
Now you're making up that I take everything personally, which I have never done and never will do
@Tinkeringbell I couldn't tell how you were reading that and since you have been singled out in chat before I wanted to be clear that I wasn't trying to do so.
4:17 PM
Which is doing exactly the opposite, singling me out. But whatever, I'd love to see more people do more stuff... even if that means 10 people getting good at 10 different things, as long as there's more people doing more stuff...
@Mithrandir wait, you're Arwen?
But that also ties back to those thresholds: Here you have someone wanting to use ther privs responsibly, so it's easy to say 'here's what you can do, but feel free to pick only one'.... This stack is sorta struggling with the opposite: Lot's of people that don't seem interested in even finding out how to be responsible..
This should be closed
Q: How to convince a family member to stop victimizing themselves?

AsteriaSituation: My grandmother moved away from the bulk of our family almost two (2) years ago now. As the flights are expensive, she only tends to visit a few times a year. However, every time she visits it causes conflict in our family. This is due to her making herself out as the "victim" in any s...

Just doing one thing over and over, like upvoting everything or robo-reviewing, or posting brainstorm answers
(That last category is definitely too big, which also creates an unbalance...)
Why is mod John neither pingable nor invite-able to this room?
4:21 PM
@gparyani They're almost never around in chat... why?
Anything you need them for specifically?
I'm still waiting for a response from them as to why my question was closed.
I have a statement prepared as to why it should be reopened, but want to hear from him first.
You can't force mods to respond. Didn't you make a meta? What was the community consensus there? Mods are supposed to abide by that..
Unless the community is flagrantly wrong
There is one negatively-scored answer and no other answers, so no consensus.
It's still an open discussion.
You can't force them, no... but if we use our powers as a mod to do something, we need to be prepared to explain our choice.
@EriktheOutgolfer Gah! The evil question!
@gparyani Gah! The other evil question!
4:25 PM
But the question is, why do I not have the option to invite them?
True. The answer is only at +7/-9 which means it's got more attention than most meta posts... I think there is apparently some people that found meta on that one, 16 votes is quite extraordinarily
@NVZ evil as to what exactly? just saying that a question is "evil" doesn't imply anything meaningful
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer: How can I respond to well-meaning comments at the gym? by R J on interpersonal.SE (@Tinkeringbell)
@Catija Which is why, it feels strange that John's missing.
I see someone said evil. You rang?
4:26 PM
@gparyani Unfortunately we seem to have a problem on meta with people downvoting answers and not posting an alternative answer.
@Tinkeringbell That answer has several false claims which you can see if you read the conversation linked in a comment on the question. I've pointed those out in my pending statement, which, again, I'm holding off on posting until John, the mod who re-closed my question after it was reviewed as "Leave Open", closed, and reopened.
sorry, false alarm :P just a mod getting their fair judgement from the rest of the community ;P
@sphennings that is most annoying, when you see posts on Meta where there are two answers and 20 down-votes between them
@Tinkeringbell It made it to Hot Meta Posts.
@gparyani How do you know it was reviewed that way? You apparently don't have the rep to view the queue
4:28 PM
@Tinkeringbell Timeline is available to everyone.
@Tinkeringbell I was given a link to the CV review queue item
regardless of rep you can view past reviews
@Catija Ah... I keep forgetting about timeline..
and no, it's not what we call a "post timeline", just past review
4:29 PM
@gparyani well, then the answer is 'simple' in that it was reviewed as leave cloesd last
@Tinkeringbell So why did you review as "Leave Closed" later?
@Tinkeringbell You were one of those reviewers
@gparyani I hate 'how do I ask X to force Y to answer' questions
They're not about 'skills'.
@Tinkeringbell Where did I say that I wanted to "force" them? I didn't say that.
Also, there's probably more wrong, I'll have a look...
@gparyani It's the impression I'm getting from looking at the meta
I asked this a while ago, but I didn't get a response:
Are questions where the answer is "no, don't do this" considered off-topic?
If so, then why so? I didn't know it's not something I should be doing until after I post the question.
4:31 PM
@gparyani Which is why closing a question doesn't carry a rep punishment or something or block you from further participation
@gparyani They are not.
You're making a bigger deal out of it than necessary
if you don't know the answer then why would the question be off-topic because of it
@Tinkeringbell I ideologically believe the question should be reopened, because it sets a precedent.
Your question got closed, and looking at the timeline I'd agree there's no community consensus yet. Which is why you might be correct at wanting a response from John, but I can't guess what's going on in his mind
4:32 PM
(btw superping)
I once recently argued that an SO question of mine from 2013 should be reopened. That initially resulted in it being deleted, but I still argued it should be undeleted.
This was despite the fact that it returned to me a 100-rep bounty I put on it before closing; I still wanted it undeleted, because I believed it should be allowed to stay.
@gparyani What you believe isn't half as important as what the community consensus on such things is, which I'd assume SO has plenty of as it's a full grown site
Now, you can go nuts here because it's a beta, and policies aren't clear... but you'll have to wait for John...
If that's what you want, otherwise go ahead and just post your statement so the community can vet it
@Tinkeringbell This wasn't a clear community consensus. It was closed and reopened, and then after being closed by a mod, someone else posted a meta question asking about it. That received a controversial answer that makes a few false claims. So I'd argue it's not a true consensus.
In the end, it's John who needs to respond to it.
...post your own answer there too then?
16 mins ago, by gparyani
I have a statement prepared as to why it should be reopened, but want to hear from him first.
4:37 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer yup
14 mins ago, by gparyani
But the question is, why do I not have the option to invite them?
@gparyani hm, looks like you have posted nothing over meta
@EriktheOutgolfer Are you looking for the meta post about my question? Someone else posted it.
@Mithrandir You have a different account just for IPS? Mind if I ask why?
this is the meta in question
Q: What makes question 11643, about talking to flight attendants when the plane has a problem, off-topic?

Crafter0800Question 11643: "How can I properly ask a flight attendant what's going on if I know my plane has a problem?" has been voted as "off-topic" by 7 total people now, while has been voted "on topic" by 5. I'm one of the 5 that believes it to be on-topic, but was wondering why it is off topic? The way...

4:40 PM
@Rainbacon Hidden communities
oh that one?
@gparyani I was talking about SO, I am painfully aware there is not enough community or consensus on IPS
> there is no community or consensus on IPS
that's not entirely true
Which is why I said either wait for John or post your 'statement'
@Tinkeringbell The question was eventually kept after I edited it
4:42 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer better?
yeah, the previous revision made it sound like "the site is an absolute, uncontrollable chaos" :P the community is still developing (that's why IPS is still beta)
So why don't I see the option to invite John to this room?
it's John's profile you should go to, not this room's info page
@EriktheOutgolfer No, I'm at his profile, and it lacks the usual "invite this user to" button.
It's there for me. Maybe it's reputation related?
4:45 PM
isn't there an "invite this user to" button under the 6 numbers?
@EriktheOutgolfer Nope
hm, looks like I can't invite him here either
+1 I feel like this is a good fallback, normally it's better to confront the issue directly, but if one can't (because family or some other silliness) this can be a good way of discouraging this stuff without overt disagreement — Maxim 1 min ago
#12053 Maxim (2540 rep) | A: Saying no to frequent but trivial favors (score: 0) | posted 5 hours ago by Sandy C (366 rep)
Matched regex(es) [""]
@IPSCommentBot uh, serious?
4:48 PM
Why is its parent site set to CS Educators?
maybe because it's used for multiple sites?
@EriktheOutgolfer that's a bit broken - it's supposed to just show the pattern itself if no reason was provided. cc @thesecretmaster
@EriktheOutgolfer +1 comments get a no longer needed flag..
@gparyani 'cause the developer is a CSE mod
that's what I suspected too
4:49 PM
@IPSCommentBot Matched regex [""] niice
so, now it will eventually start to flag every comment which contains "?
that is one complex regex pattern
@EriktheOutgolfer flags have to be done manually
not that flag :P of course it can't flag with <15 rep
4:51 PM
@Tinkeringbell Can you explain my screenshot, then?
It actually matched the pattern (\+1|\-1) that I added earlier today.
If it does go haywire and post every comment into here, I'll ban it from the room ;)
@Mithrandir \ before -? why
@gparyani Apparently you're somehow not allowed that, I don't know exactly why
also, it can be shortened to ([+-]1)
4:52 PM
I think it's because you're an RO
no, I'm not a RO and I can reproduce
@EriktheOutgolfer I'm no regex guru :P
it's just that it shows for other rooms, not this one
@EriktheOutgolfer just wanted to ask that
@Mithrandir I'm a golfer :P but seriously if you don't keep regexes short they will turn into a huge mess
4:53 PM
I can only invite them to charcoal ...
@Tinkeringbell Perhaps it's an option set for just this room, to only allow ROs to invite? I hopped into another room and it allows me to invite them.
oh, and it can also be shortened to [+-]1
So apparently I can't force them in here too, but at least I get an invite button
Can I have a link to John's profile?
9 mins ago, by gparyani
there is no "The Awkward Silence" in the list
so, uh, we have to superping or something?
4:55 PM
Not exactly. I'm pretty sure Catija saw it and will pass the message along if it's important enough
well, any user who votes to close should be able to explain why, not just mods
Which is probably why the answer already there has 7 upvotes
you mean 8
Which is better than seven answers stating the same over and over
4:57 PM
(no, it wasn't me)
(Also... Pssst. Anybody who hammers a question closed can be pinged in the comments like an editor.)
@Mithrandir Evidence?
nothing to "pssst" here :P
@Mithrandir Oh, that's a nice harassment feature :/
@gparyani it's on Meta.SE somewhere
4:57 PM
25 secs ago, by gparyani
@Mithrandir Evidence?
@Tinkeringbell indeed.
(I like when people "pssst" while it doesn't change the visibility of a message)
pssst.. me 2
Found it:
Q: How do comment @replies work?

GnomeHow do the comment replies (aka "pinging users") work? Who can I send an @reply to? How do I respond to a specific user when entering my comment? Will they be notified? What do people mean when they talk about "pinging" another user? Related: How do I view the recent replies to things I hav...

> For questions: The moderator or gold badge holder who closed or reopened the question. Users who have closed or reopened a question without a binding close vote (i.e. without a gold tag badge or a moderator vote) cannot be notified.
4:59 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer Would create a lot of chaos if people could decrease visibility of their messages from others...
The best you could do is 'ignore user' although even that shows people replying

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