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12:27 AM
@Ash Nice to know I'm not talking to myself, but doesn't really address the concern.
 
Ash
I'm not entirely sure what your concern is, to be truly honest
 
That the community is slowly dissolving as more and more people are becoming fed up.
 
Ash
12:43 AM
Sometimes that happens - it's easy to be excited when sites start, but some of them lose steam when they fail for whatever reason to get that critical mass of people so that it's not the same like tiny handful of humans doing all the work.
Although, I will caution against assuming the chat community comprises the entirety of a site's community.
 
Of course... the standard SE lines...
 
Ash
Sometimes, they're standard because we've seen this happen over and over
What do you want to hear, here?
Chat doesn't and won't ever show you every facet of a community because some people never ever hit chat.
And sometimes, people do burn out because sites fail to thrive.
Not every site will be a magic success out of the gate. Some take a while to find their legs.
This is a soft squishy site in terms of topic. It's going to take more work and more dedication to keep on a constrained and workable path, because it's very open ended.
Other sites don't have that issue, because their topic has more defined edges.
 
I'm aware of all that. This isn't my first time... Just voicing my frustration.
 
Ash
Alright, but I'm allowed to reply, as well.
You asked "what happened to the community".
So since you phrased it as a question...I was answering said question.
 
"The community" as in the group of folks who used to be hella dedicated, that seem to be dropping like flies and being replaced by people who are flatly clueless, or people who don't really seem to give much of a shit.
 
Ash
12:54 AM
They're likely burning out, because they've taken on all this work and it's hard if you don't ever get the help you need from new blood. No man is an island and all that stuff.
Like especially here I think it's harder because like...so many people want IPS advice, because we're all a bunch of terrified little meat sacks who just want to be happy and have things go well
 
@apaul Dude... it's Sunday. Chill.
 
Ash
But being able to give that sort of advice in a way that's clearly and constructively helpful is a whole different set of skills.
ANd helping people refine their IPS stuff to actually not just be a panicked flail of "someone is upset and it is all broken" is another set of skills.
 
@Catija You know as well as I do that this has been going on for a good while.
 
Ash
Also, it's the weekend. A lot of sites get hella weekend quiet.
Like I keep telling people here - you gotta find a way to build a community that eventually draws people in. And sometimes, that means taking the people who "don't give a shit" in the way you want them to give shits and teaching them what giving a shit here looks like.
2
 
How's that been working out so far?
 
Ash
12:59 AM
You can't just declare people lost causes out of the gate just because they don't care about this immediately with whatever you define as the right amount of caring in the right ways.
 
Hey, apaul... Let me put some words up for you:
> Stupid people with their stupid answers. Can't you figure out that this is unnecessary and rude or do you need someone to show you?
 
Ash
@apaul If you just wanna fight with me, that's cool.
We can do that.
If you'd like to have constructive discussion, we can do that too.
If you're convinced this site is hopeless....it's going to fail.
If you can't be the one to fight the good fight anymore, and you gotta lay that sword down because you're out of HP? FIne.
That's okay.
 
I guess I'm losing hope. And ya, I've been losing patience too.
 
Ash
Either the site finds people to take up the sword, or it doesn't, or maybe it figures out a different way to go that isn't what you thought but works well enough for it to do what it needs to for the people who are still here.
If you find yourself constantly upset and frustrated and out of patience, then maybe you gotta go "okay, I gotta step back and not touch this" because otherwise you risk chasing away people that could be shaped into good community contributors because you don't give them a chance
And that's hard.
I remember when Pokemon Go came out and we were getting piles and piles and piles of these godawful questions because people found us and were just bombarding us with shit about every tiny thing that went wrong.
It got to the point where we literally had Meta debates about declaring the whole thing off topic because people were tired.
 
Seems like most of our resources are being poured into "educating" users who are just hear to screw around. We've certainly identified a few, but ya, we'll do that instead of anything remotely productive.
 
Ash
1:06 AM
But some people persevered, and we duped a lot of crap, and eventually we could mostly tell who was here that would honestly want to do the thing, and who was just here because it was a text box that they could put letters into.
@apaul It's a hard line, especially with IPS.
You're going to get the trolls because lolz people are funny and have problems lolz let's mock them and waste time
but also, you run a risk of people not knowing how to say what's really going on (the whole friend of my friend sort of thing) so they don't exactly tell the right truth out loud for fear of being identified or ridiculed or what have you.
And people are not always going to agree what that looks like.
(I know you're annoyed with the turtle thing.)
 
The turtle thing was minor at best.
 
Ash
It was just the most recent one I could think of (my memory is kinda wonky so specific things don't stick always so well)
Like there's a lot of things I'd theoretically ask here that would make good questions but I don't, because enough people know me that it would make things less comfortable for me than I'd like.
 
More talking about a lot of our top users disappearing or falling silent while we hand hold known trolls...
 
Ash
Ah. I don't think that's as much of a problem as a few people seem to think
I also think people conflate "trolls" with "people who have no IPS skills"
Or who are just honestly misguided and kinda lost and kinda flailing about because no one has ever challenged their worldviews before.
I think also you're sticking two problems together that are separate things.
Basically, we have a burnout problem because we aren't getting in the new people to support and help the old guard.
 
Nah... There's at least one... Tends to play clueless awfully well, but they're definitely known and they seem to deliberately derail things on the regular.
 
Ash
1:19 AM
And there's also the potential problem of people misguidedly trying to create community by rewarding the wrong sorts of behaviour in an attempt to get and keep whoever's closest
(Also, one person alone does not a large scale problem make)
 
It does when it's allowed to fester.
 
Ash
Then people have to be clearer about shutting it down.
Like collectively.
And it can't just be a moderator thing, either.
 
Yes people are getting burnt out, but there are underlying reasons for that. When we hand hold users that we know are screwing with us, we allow them to stick around and accrue enough rep to "contribute to moderation" which compounds the problems.
 
Ash
All I can say is then stop holding their hand.
If this is an ongoing problem with more than one user, perhaps a case can be made that rep thresholds are currently too low, who knows.
(but if you're going to ask for a change for core functioning, you're going to need a lot more than "I don't like that this one person gets to have things", obviously)
Stop responding to the person, stop feeding their posts (downvote floods, comments, responses, whatever), lay clear boundaries. Don't give them the attention.
And negative attention still counts. Constantly alluding them like this still also counts - whoever it is will read this and they're going to realize they're pushing your buttons.
Basically, stop giving them the buttons.
 
Cause booting them obviously isn't an option...
I'll remove the buttons.
So long and thanks for all the fish.
 
NVZ
2:15 AM
Interesting discussion
 
 
2 hours later…
4:03 AM
I would say IPS older/more experienced members are burning out for a slightly different reason, I don't think the questions are exactly getting worse and worse. It is more that they are staying the same. IPS compared to the rest of SE is one of the subjects that you can
- can't just research, you improve through experience. And as older members get more experienced, new people join and ask the same base IPS questions that have always been getting asked.
and naturally it would get tiring. Since it is much harder to determine the 'facts', or successes and failures, it also makes our collective knowledge on the subject a bit slower to grow than other subjects
i think...
 
4:29 AM
0
Q: How to convince a family member to stop victimizing themselves?

AsteriaSituation: My grandmother moved away from the bulk of our family almost two (2) years ago now. As the flights are expensive, she only tends to visit a few times a year. However, every time she visits it causes conflict in our family. This is due to her making herself out as the "victim" in any s...

 
 
3 hours later…
7:13 AM
morning
 
A J
afternoon
 
7:31 AM
7 hours ago, by Ash
Like I keep telling people here - you gotta find a way to build a community that eventually draws people in. And sometimes, that means taking the people who "don't give a shit" in the way you want them to give shits and teaching them what giving a shit here looks like.
@Ash any genious plans on how to do so?
@Jesse, IPS can be researched, there's tons of sources out there on how to improve certain skills... Yes, our questions are getting worse, or I would not have found as much older questions to link to in my "Let's talk with X about Y to have Z happen' meta...
I seriously considered deleting my account this weekend. There's too much stupid stuff going on here, and I've been called 'emotionally attached' way too often, just for voicing my opinion or distancing myself when it looks like it's going no where.
But I'll just try and remember this:
Feb 12 at 16:06, by Catija
Actually means "Let the entire site die a horrible death"
And I'm not going to let that happen. I've never given up on anything, if you fail you haven't tried hard enough.
So all of you can try and tell me to go away or not take things seriously or not be concerned as much as you like, so you can have the site to frolick upon, it's not going to happen.
I'll be here, and I'll be working my ass of to get this stupid thing into shape. Because that's how I was raised, and that's an attitude this site can use a whole lot more of...
 
... seems I have a lot of reading on meta to catch up on
Somehow meta here is even more dry then on SO
 
Not just people telling other people 'yeah, you can magically fix it by building a community'... If anyone has the magic spell for that, share it, because I have tried, other's have tried and people just aren't doing it...
For me, the only thing I'm 'tired' of and that's 'wearing me out' would be that there are people working hard for this site, but they don't have the buttons and power, or support, to enforce things like a back it up rule or have questions ask about skills instead of problems...
 
@Tinkeringbell You do have the highest level of privilege a user can have sans moderator powers
 
Now if anyone knows where I can get a community that wants to do that, please send me a link..
@Magisch And it's not enough...
 
As do I, apart from the number of delete votes
@Tinkeringbell At that point you're either arguing for more moderators (and having them take a more active role) or against the model of stackexchange itself
 
7:42 AM
@Magisch 'support'... as in I can vote all I like, it's going to be overriden by whatever anyways...
I'm fine with having only three moderators...
 
Catija suggested something about this on meta
There's actually a really easy way to change this... by asking for the graduation-level privilege triggers. If users with 500 rep (who often have only ever posted one or two things on the site ever) can't close or reopen vote, then we've made them unable to act on their poor concept of what this site is actually about. The only reason there's disagreement on what's acceptable quality here is because reputation is pitifully easy to acquire and people who want to answer bad but "fun" questions, can do so merely by voting to reopen. — Catija ♦ 14 hours ago
I'm not convinced how good of an idea this is, but I'll pull some stats from SEDE to find out
 
> If users with 500 rep (who often have only ever posted one or two things on the site ever) can't close or reopen vote, then we've made them unable to act on their poor concept of what this site is actually about.
That's not the problem here... Even among the people with 5k+ rep there are only a very few that are acutally working on this site
 
@Magisch I'd be all in support of that except that then I won't be able to VTC :P
 
@Mithrandir And I won't see deleted posts
 
And my last answer reached HNQ and I got over 500 rep from that alone, so it's not like it will solve stuff
 
7:45 AM
Alas, making an omelette breaks a few eggs
 
If anything, it will severely limit the few people that are actually voting to delete bad stuff..
 
@Tinkeringbell I'm gonna pull some data if that could potentially work
For you nothing but the number of delete votes you get would change though
 
Take a look at the last few questions that bounced between open/closed... the people voting to reopen or robo reviewing in the queues have enough rep to keep those privileges even after the treshold is raised...
 
@Catija Do you really think the answer to an outstanding quality problem here is to allow fewer people to close and delete? I'd like to see some stats of how many users that'd be impacted by this regularly reopen trash. — Magisch 11 mins ago
I have a hunch it won't make a lot of difference, but I'm going to try and find out exactly
 
Great. That'll take away the few community members that are here, and leave me with more work to do, more arguments to make and blame to take.

Furthermore, it'll most likely send even more users on a reputation hunt....
Like we're not having a FGITW syndrome going on already
It might stop people from downvoting because 'oh no, my precious rep'
Or more upvotes as participation awards..
 
JAD
7:55 AM
@Catija I think it might work at first, but it's very much fighting the symptoms instead of the root cause. — JAD 5 mins ago
 
NVZ
Hello
 
JAD
I think inconsistent moderation is a symptom of not enough meta participation, not of not enough main participation
 
NVZ
I have this great view of the world's tallest building from my new office. :)
 
JAD
the latter is fixed by raising rep requirements
the former isn't
it's only delayed
 
NVZ
Oh, sorry, I'm interrupting some discussion it seems
So are we going to raise the rep Vs privileges levels now? I better hurry to 10k.
Gah! 20k I'll need
 
I've had Ed Sheeran's song, "Perfect", playing in my head all day long ...
 
@D.Hutchinson And what does that have to do with the discussion that was going on?
@Magisch I'd be curious to see the SEDE data once you have it, but right now it's not sounding promising ...
Just take a look at the user page, sorted by all-time rep. apaul and anongoodnurse have already quit the site. kategregory and monica are barely ever on meta/chat...
Same goes for andreirom...
Of the people on that page, a few are in chat and sometimes participate on meta, but it's like almost nothing...
I really think that it's like @JAD said, fighting the symptoms instead of the root cause, the only good thing I can think of is that it may buy some time..
 
@Tinkeringbell I just found out close votes aren't included in the vote table anymore
 
JAD
unlikely, if anything it'll grow the feeling of a clique
 
@Magisch That's a nice start :/
 
JAD
8:11 AM
because suddenly you limit the moderation to a group that's already dominant in trying to enforce 'their' rules
 
@JAD Meh... It's only me, Catija, Magisch and HDE that are on the front page of users that are actually trying to make the site work..
The rest you never see writing answers on meta
 
Yeah I can't get these stats
A CM would have to do it
 
NVZ
Oh my
I'm totally confused
 
JAD
@Tinkeringbell JessK and Anne Daunted are on meta every now and then
 
Well, time to go manual. Work through the review queues, and look at timeline of the last 10 posts or so...
 
8:14 AM
sighs
 
JAD
sphennings as well
 
@JAD alright, some are there sometimes...
But again, I don't really see them trying to make the site work... the big battles are fought by just a very few users...
and higher reputation thresholds don't seem like a good idea since it would exclude those few lower rep users that are actively trying as well..
 
I wonder where I show up in these stats.
 
NVZ
@Mithrandir tell me about it
 
8:16 AM
You're not on the frontpage of users anyway
 
Heh.
 
Which is like the problem I just mentioned... from the frontpage users only a few are trying to fight, the rest occasionally chimes in, or does nothing at all.
So rep thresholds don't sound like a solution here..
 
Anyone really good at parsing with regex in sql queries?
 
NVZ
Time heals all
 
A J
@Tinkeringbell Participation is
@Magisch Can try.
 
NVZ
8:17 AM
Site evolves in time
 
JAD
@Magisch T-sql (SEDE) has very little regex capabilities
 
NVZ
@Magisch Mithrandir might know
 
"{""Voters"":[{""Id"":110,""DisplayName"":""curiousdannii""},{""Id"":10454,""Di‌​splayName"":""D.Hutchinson""},{""Id"":345,""DisplayName"":""NVZ""},{""Id"":6037,"‌​"DisplayName"":""Alina Cretu""},{""Id"":33,""DisplayName"":""John""}]}"
This is the jumbled mess the close records are stored in
I need a way to split these into User ID X closed Y Question
 
@NVZ I know nothing about SQL.
 
A J
@Magisch That's a JSON string
 
JAD
8:19 AM
@Magisch lemme see if I can find a way
 
NVZ
@Magisch what's that? What's my name doing there?
 
JAD
patindex(pattern, string) returns the index of a match
with substring you can then select a piece of a string based on that index
 
@AJ I know nothing about parsing JSON with tsql
 
A J
@Magisch And I don't know about T-SQL. :/
 
JAD
so here you would match patindex('""Id"":', json)
 
NVZ
8:22 AM
You know nothing, Jon Snow
 
JAD
and then something like substring(json, patindex('""Id"":', json) + 7, 5)
not sure how that works with multiple matches though
you can then match the substring on the users table: left join users on substring like cast(users.id as varchar) + '%'
 
So apparently there are 34 answers with a positive score with a body length of less than 200 characters.
 
A J
@Mithrandir Ohh
@Mithrandir done
 
A J
Can't cast delete vote until it reaches -1.
 
JAD
@Mithrandir would it be useful to change the link in those autocomments to the relevant post on the big list of expectations to answers? interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/a/2423/2262
 
A J
8:55 AM
All done from my side.
 
JAD
9:10 AM
D:
-4
A: I dreamed you did so and so. Why did you do that? - How to react?

user2497TL;DR: Dreams are cognitive processes that deal with ensuring survival, including emotional survival. They are problem solving processes. Mine has done that a few times. I just ask her whether she experienced this in reality, or in a dream. Then I reassure her I love her, and embrace her lovingl...

 
0
Q: Politely refuse to help someone?

user8979192Put simply, I am the smart guy at school and people always want my help. I don't want to be rude, but they pester me and I try to escape but I can't; I ending spending entire lunch or something helping do a task that they were supposed to themselves (homework questions, homework tasks) so I just ...

 
@JAD Gross
Nothing in that answer is factually wrong from the theory used (I think anyways) but it's really really disgusting me for some reason I can't put my finger on
 
It's the latest comment that does it for me :/
I'm wondering what anongoodnurse has to do with it..
 
JAD
probably something on parentingSE?
 
I have no clue. I just custom mod flagged that one..
Now we wait until one wakes up...
 
JAD
I slapped r/a flags on the bunch
maybe a bit overkill, but w/e
 
10:08 AM
@Tinkeringbell Meanwhile one more DV and it's at least gone for now
 
A J
Aren't we enough to delete that crap?
 
We're at 2/3
so apparently not
Be prepared for the censorship war in meta btw
 
A J
Maybe @Tinkeringbell missed to vote on that.
 
10:40 AM
Why would I delete that one?
Please link me to a meta policy that will hold up a delete vote on that one
 
11:27 AM
-1
Q: Who is allowed to delete comments?

EdgarLots of questions and answers have comments which are outdated. I.e. a users asked to clarify a question or an answer and this was done already. I guess then that comment should be deleted. Who is allowed to delete comments? I guess the answer is somewhere here but I searched and I looked also ...

 
SQB
11:53 AM
@JAD well, that escalated quickly.
 
JAD
12:09 PM
@SQB yeah :S
 
@Tinkeringbell not sure. It's extremely crude, but it does look like an attempted answer
I was using the DV as a compromise between merely downvoting it and flagging it as r/a
 
What would warrant r/a?
 
SQB
Note that there is nothing wrong with down voting any answer you think is incorrect or otherwise not useful.
Likewise, there's nothing wrong with down voting any question that you think is not useful.
 
@SQB define useful ;)
 
Now, if we had a back-it up rule, I could delete that one for making unsubstantiated claims
 
SQB
12:15 PM
@Cashbee I don't have to; it's about what I think is useful.
@Magisch what? Why?
@Tinkeringbell borderline rude. If I was having a conversation with family, friends, or acquaintances in which I had asked that question and gotten that as a response, I'd consider that rude.
Assuming we're talking about that "just give her an orgasm"-answer.
 
@SQB So it's rude if people say 'this worked for me' ?
 
JAD
"sex'll shut her up" sounds kinda rude to me
 
SQB
@Tinkeringbell No, but — although this depends on context; not the context of the conversation but of the group of friends — if people told me to make my SO relax by having sex, I'd find that rude.
 
Okay, that I can see...
Still, then there should be flags, not delete votes
 
@Tinkeringbell Would you accept this advice to a question?
 
12:23 PM
@Magisch I'd say it's unuseful
 
Sometimes even an answer is rude even if it is an answer. If I told this to a friend asking me this question I'd expect a slap
 
Like SQB said, we downvote unuseful stuff
 
Because it'd be justified
 
Like I said, I can see why people find it rude. Still, doesn't mean it should be delete voted, instead, if that's the case, it should be flagged
 
Like I said, I was using a delete vote instead of a rude flag as consideration towards the OP
 
12:25 PM
consideration of what?
 
towards not getting them IP banned and burning all of their rep in the process
thats what a valid R/A flag does
 
That's not what policy says delete votes are for though...
As far as we have a policy on deleting stuff
Why do you think this case needs consideration? Where does that line lie
 
I don't know really
I decided that on gut feeling
not a good explaination I know
 
Don't you think things will go down the drain quickly if people just all go acting on gut feelings?
 
Right, but we don't have precise consensus policies yet either
 
12:31 PM
The rules for r/a are SE specific, not site...
2
 
That's why those policies need to be hammered out
 
@RichardU Can't do that with maybe 5 people on meta
We have hundreds of people who can close and edit.
 
A J
If we want to keep this site clean, then we'll have to remove craps. Of course, we should downvote bad answers, but we'll also have to remove total crap.
 
@Magisch more people would show up in IPS meta if it didn't bear a striking resemblance to internet blood sports.
 
@RichardU I don't get that vibe? Anything in particular you're refering to?
 
12:40 PM
@Magisch yes, but I don't want to get into specifics and blow up chat.
I will say that I am not the only one who feels this way.
 
@RichardU Without specifics it is hard to action your feelings and make meta friendlier
We can't address pure vagueries. If you have an example though we can action that and maybe use it as an example to action other things differently in future
 
@Magisch Do you think IPS meta is as welcoming, more welcoming, or less welcoming than other metas?
 
@RichardU definitely more welcoming then SO meta
TWP meta I haven't been on enough to make that call
 
SO meta will eat you alive
 
I have over 200 answers on SO meta and I can confirm it'll eat you alive
the regulars there will assume you need working knowledge of past policies and intricacies for everything
 
A J
12:51 PM
@RichardU You know you can always click "reply to this message" in dropdown before each message, so it can be easier to find which message you're replying to.
 
@Mithrandir you're right about that one.
 
At least I haven't seen much of the meta effect here
Like what happens daily on SO. Person gets 1 downvote and asks about it on meta. Suddenly their question drops to -15 is closed and subsequently deleted, maybe some other questions of theirs are too
can feel like an attack sometimes
 
@Magisch The comments on IPS meta are annoying, but what's worse are the down-votes without comment on IPS meta. Yes, I understand that the concept on the main sites is that it prevents revenge voting, but on metas, there is no rep lost. SE Meta is the only exception that I know of.
but the fact that you posted 200 answers on meta identifies some serious masochistic tendencies. ;)
 
@RichardU drive by downvoting always happens
I've long since stopped caring
 
@Magisch maybe it's me.
 
12:58 PM
I get where you're coming from I felt the same way starting out at SO and even still catch myself doing it
 
@Magisch you really should come to TWP meta, just for the entertainment value.
 
@RichardU nah
 
@Magisch how else are you going to find out about the blackmailing dominatrix, or the woman who removed her shirt, of the attack of the trolls we had recently. Oh, and the Indian woman who didn't know she wasn't supposed to eat other people's lunches? It's a wacky fun-fest full of the strange, the bizarre, and the unexpected. Believe it, or not.
 
1:14 PM
@RichardU I'm more busy with serial voting on SO these days
Not nearly as fun to see $genericName upvote themselves to easy assoc bonus
 
SQB
@RichardU Yeah, I was surprised by the number of down votes on the question about comment deletion, both on the question and the answers before mine.
@RichardU wh... what?
 
SQB
1:27 PM
@RichardU links?
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: I dreamed you did so and so. Why did you do that? - How to react? by WhatAcrazy on interpersonal.SE (@Tinkeringbell)
 
@SQB @SQB Oh yeah, we get some doozies workplace.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5102/…
 
SQB
@RichardU unfortunately I can't read the deleted question it refers to. But the title sounds entertaining.
 
1:52 PM
@RichardU I'm find with downvotes without comments on meta, as long as someone posts an answer expressing an dissenting opinion. What bothers me is when there are three answers that are effectively saying the same thing that all get 2 downvotes and there is no answer providing an alternative.
 

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