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12:02 AM
@qroberts Networking stuff is generally going to be standardized. It's not like Cisco has its own idea of what a subnet mask is. Furthermore, Cisco is big enough that other companies tend to emulate them/rip them off
 
@Joel This is true. Ideally, I'd love to one day have my C|EH or higher. If I went with Cisco first, I'd probably take the CCNA Security route
 
@qroberts You can't really "certify" your way into infosec
 
I know that
 
Go to conferences, attend talks, get people to learn your name and your face
It's a small community and it's very tight-knit
Do you know C and/or Python?
 
One example that happened last week for instance, one of our clients has a custom built CMS that they distribute to their clients for webhosting etc. I found a SQL injection in it, which applies to ALL their clients websites. I know the founder of the company through meetings etc and let him know. Their lead programmer called me instantly and had me explain the problem.
I'm more of an assembler kinda guy, I use to do a lot of reverse engineering for making cheats for games
 
12:11 AM
@qroberts Still very relevant, though web stuff is rapidly changing how useful knowing asm is
 
@qroberts Come to DEFCON this year. I'll introduce you to some folks.
@qroberts What focus you want in infosec? Web, pen test, app test, code review?
 
@JeffFerland That's a bit out of the way, I am in Canada but attending DEFCON has always been a goal of mine
 
11
Q: Attend DEFCON this year, get a free beer from me

Jeff FerlandIt's the first annual Security.SE DEFCON meetup! It's your excuse to go this year! DOOO ITTTT

 
Pen testing is what I am interested in
I can probably persuade the partners to let me go for the sake of PD
 
@qroberts Talk to the guys in DMZ tomorrow. Most of them are Western Europe and East Coast USA.

 The DMZ

A serious place where infosec is discussed PS we don't do hard...
 
12:22 AM
@JeffFerland Is there a secret passphrase that results in beer
 
@Joel HA
 
god
 
Yes, I suppose if you walk around and call me god I'll pay up in beer :P
 
@JeffFerland Also introductions. But beer comes first. To make introductions easier.
 
@Joel You show me who you are on the site, you'll get a round.
 
12:24 AM
Wow, I went to see a 'live stream' of our federal budget being discussed to find a twitter feed discussing it..
 
@qroberts Just pretend it's a MUD :)
 
I loved them on old telnet BBS's
There was one on unknownrealm.org.. cant remember the name
 
12:41 AM
@BartSilverstrim Yeah, I know them. Always seem to be hiring. Interesting kiosks.
 
1:01 AM
@ewwhite Probably not a good sign then...
 
1:28 AM
@BartSilverstrim Oh, it's from growth. Not turnover.
And now I notice their kiosks around town... also noticed them on a recent NJ/NY trip.
 
What do the kiosks do? Like ATM's?
 
Customizable - in Chicagoland, they are used for commuter rail transit passes...
so they accept credit cards and dispense the rail transit passes
Also parking lots...
They have some units in the local universities for billpay and such.
It's basically a network of customizable kiosks running Linux.
 
There's another company in the area that makes slot machines and gaming systems for casinos...
also linux-based hardware.
 
How do you keep finding these job openings?
 
1:38 AM
Me? I always look. I think it's interesting to see what's out there and how people use technology.
 
@BartSilverstrim Find interesting company, click on the about or company page on their website
 
And a recurring alert from indeed.com
 
...think it's time to crawl into bed.
 
1:49 AM
Ehh, it's quiet so I'll just post here... bad migration. Close it out.
0
Q: how to invoke a function from server frequently?

vantianI want to create a function which is it will running every month on a specific date, how can I do this? anyone can help me?

 
2:14 AM
I almost can't believe I'm creating on parenting.SE.
2
 
@MikeyB Uhhh me neither?
You're a man you should know everything about masturbation that there is to know
 
2:27 AM
Arrghh I need 14 more rep to create a tag
 
@MikeyB Oh, not here
Well now...
That is an interesting tag
 
2:47 AM
@MikeyB At least there would be a tag feed...
@ewwhite From a comment: "If you can't name two things you're regularly doing outside of work, you're spending too much time there." Does it work the same way if those two things are drinking gin and throwing rocks at old people?
 
3:00 AM
So uhh... I've posted some additional answers on parenting.SE. Upvote them please if you think they're worthy ;)
 
Haven't seen @Jacob around here in a while. You still around?
Your avatar as floated all the way to the end of the list
 
So, in case you haven't heard, Canada is getting rid of the penny.
 
@MikeyB That's gonna be strange... will they mandate rounding up or down? If I'm a big merchant, I'm gonna report that I always round down and pocket the difference...
I guess it'll be a boon to POS suppliers.
 
@Ward It's not going to be eliminated immediately as such, they'll just be stopping production.
 
We got rid of it almost 20 years ago
For cash sales, everything is rounded to the nearest 5
So, given that .99 is fairly common, most will round up
And .95 replaced .99 for pricing of things
 
3:23 AM
Nice.
 
I'd like to see the death of cash everywhere
It's so frustrating buying lunch somewhere with a big "CASH ONLY" sign
I know it's because banks charge a % on each sale on card, but really, if you don't take card you've lost my busienss. Which one cost more?
 
3:37 AM
@MarkHenderson They're going to TRACK YOU! Down with The Man!
 
@MikeyB It's a sad fact of living in this modern world that you're already tracked. I don't mind that really, but I do mind if they sell that shit out. So I know that every time I use my credit card at the supermarket, because I use the same card all the time, they know that Mr 5404574125414121 always buys a roast chicken from Carlingford on Thursdays, but he spends between $150-$200 every saturday at Baulkahm Hills and 2 years ago started buying nappies
In fact I read an article about WalMart sending personalised coupons to people that their stats said were expectant mothers, and they were freakishly accurate so much that one man cracked the shits because WalMart knew his daughter was pregnant before he did
 
@MarkHenderson It was Target. He apologized when she was indeed pregnant
Apparently Target spent a fortune on getting this algorithm right
 
There you go
 
@MarkHenderson My Kindle started showing me special offers for diapers within two weeks of my wife's IUD coming out.
2
 
Target
@MilesErickson Haha well how would they know THAT
Did you start buying old-fashioned contraceptives :p
 
3:42 AM
@MarkHenderson Come to think of it, it's probably because I read a Michael Lewis book that had "Fatherhood" in the title.
 
I never thought of Target as an aggressive business-informatics machine with state of the art machine learning algorithms
Yet here we are, getting coupons
 
@Joel You'd better believe it. Think of the name.
 
Haha
Well we design systems that our clients data mine to the wazoo
 
@Zoredache Nagios doesn't suck, IMHO. It actually overcomes every suckage-point of every other monitoring system that I can think of at the moment.
 
one of our larger clients is in the building industry, so as soon as a hail storm hits in a particular area, they look at all the previous repairs they did for hail storms in that area and stock up on roof tiles/etc that are commonly used in that area within an hour of the hail storm hitting, before stock runs out and prices go up
 
3:44 AM
@MilesErickson I WANT something to obsolete Nagios, but I don't see it happening anytime soon
 
They also discover alls orts of interesting things. They were purchasing at retail prices something like 100 "corinthian" doors every single week, so they wholesaled 1,000 of them. Bam, the cost of finding that out just paid for itself 3x over
 
@Joel It would be a lot of work. I mean, what's there to complain about? That it takes a real man (or woman) to configure?
@Joel Implemented correctly, it works frighteningly well.
 
This mother fucking log file is 411 god damn gigabytes
 
@Joel Some sales guy at Splunk is having happy dreams right now.
 
@MilesErickson Fat chance. This is a transaction log
 
3:47 AM
@Joel Oh.
 
@Joel Someone forget to turn off verbose logging?
I did that once. Forgot to turn off verbose logging on a very heavilly used web service. 1Tb of plain text log file later...
Performance increased dramatically after turning it off though
 
@MarkHenderson It's an OLTP transaction log. ... I guess I should use multiple files for it. I finally nailed the sweet spot of backup frequency
 
@Joel Less than once a minute, more than once a year
 
Anyone want to recommend reasonably priced horizontal cable management with pass-through holes? You'd think it would be cheaper with holes on account of less metal, but no.
 
@MilesErickson Im guessing they make them without holes, then punch holes in them. Meaning you ahve to pay for them to make the hole and recycle the material
 
3:55 AM
Still... cheapest I'm aware of without holes is about $9 and cheapest with is about $30?!
 
@Joel wtf are you logging?!
@MarkHenderson I mean, how do you not notice 1 TB of log?
 
haha poor @Joel - how many times are you going to have to explain, thats three times now :P
 
@JeffFerland Every tiny change made to a database, in a replayable (and probably rewindable) fashion. (that's what "OLTP transaction log" means)
 
@freiheit Yeah, got to that part a little later. How far back in time does that log go?
 
I mean... even a well-paid individual has to think, "how many holes can I make with a hole saw in $24 worth of my time?"
 
3:58 AM
@JeffFerland A really large LUN with loads of free space that normally just sits there and works
@MilesErickson Depends. Thats about 10 minutes...
do I have a jigsaw and a drill?
Will it look as nice?
But yes it is absurd. And the ones with holes are a bit nicer to use too
 
I've had that sort of thing happen with VirtualCenter's Oracle DB log when VC was upgraded. Apparently rewriting all the data make it generate hundreds of times as much log as there was original data.
 
@MarkHenderson I suppose I'm just griping because I know I'm going to buy the expensive one.
While I'm griping, who in his right mind would name a device /dev/tty.usbserial-00004006?
 
@JeffFerland 1 hour. Hahaha
 
@Joel You have an OLTP system moving over 400GB/hr?
 
@JeffFerland At most 400GB yes
 
4:06 AM
@Joel Oh, well, if that's just the upper end... and here I thought you were playing with the big stuff... :P
 
@JeffFerland I measured the largest it got in an hour in a given month, then preallocated to that size to prevent locking issues when it autogrows
 
@MilesErickson I'm surprised hammondmfg.com/rackacc4.htm doesn't have anything :/ I should call them and complain.
 
Man I've got an SQL server around here somewhere that probably can't even read 400Gb an hour, let alone process that many transactions
 
@Joel "After testing a few more services, and requesting a traceroute from a geographically-distant associate" Looking glass servers ;)
I want to know what this is for. I bet reddit doesn't push that traffic, and I KNOW wikipedia doesn't
 
@MilesErickson udev by-id auto-naming?
 
4:08 AM
@MarkHenderson I lol'd. I built that server (and array) specifically for that purpose
@JeffFerland I am looking into it stat
 
@Joel Acutally, just check out traceroute.org
Publicly available logins to backbone routers for BGP and traceroute info
 
This is going in the DR plan, thank you
 
@Joel For out-of-band, put a cellular modem in your network that is on an external interface of a VPN box
 
@JeffFerland Way ahead of you. The funding never got approved.
and I'm not privy to the sales figures I'd need to quantify how much that downtime cost us.
(My guess is at least $5K USD)
 
You move 400GB of OLTP in an hour and somebody won't let you have a fucking phone?
 
4:12 AM
@JeffFerland I don't call the shots. Maybe soon! But not today.
 
@Joel If you don't have access to what you need to quantify the potential losses associated with downtime, how in the world can you give them the information they need to make reasonable business decisions about risk management?
 
@MilesErickson I tend to butt heads with the "reasonable" part of your argument
 
@Joel are you subject to any audits?
 
Also I really need to finish my cowboy hat contingency blog entry. brb doing that
@JeffFerland I think I'm channeling the Joel test for Sysadmins question, but IT is definitely treated as a "buy as we need" money sinkhole
 
4:14 AM
@Joel I mean, even if you're doing IT for a 20-person shop, that's really what it comes down to. Is the cost of not doing X likely to exceed the cost of doing it? Even if not, will failing to do X expose the enterprise to an unreasonable risk of catastrophic losses?
 
@Joel Well, if you have any external auditors, tell them about your access issues when they're asking you what your password length setting is... auditors like to be the good guys and will call things like that a "finding"
 
@JeffFerland I don't mind that, as long as I'm in on the conversation about what "need" means.
 
@MilesErickson I don't think you know my backstory. My company did devops before it was cool. Then they hired me to fix it. A lot of this is new ground for them
 
@Joel I totally don't know your backstory.
@Joel Really, all I know about you is that you have a nice rack.
6
 
@MilesErickson Fucking starred for eternity
That rack is worth more than I am ;_;
 
4:17 AM
I missed this. Which rack?
 
@MarkHenderson My gravatar
 
I love it when a mystery star turns up. Clearly someone is lurking and starring things but staying hidden :p
4
 
I think it's a gravatar.
 
Oh right
Its so small I didnt think to look at it
 
@MarkHenderson Your disappointment is palpable. In fact, I'm palpating it right now.
 
4:18 AM
There we go
If I was more of a hardware nerd I would probbaly recognise what's in it:P
 
Oh good job, my hospital: therecord.com/2012/03/…
 
How the hell can I be online and NOT be able to reach Google.com?
 
@MikeyB Sounds like an accurate description of a hospital ER if you ask me
 
@MarkHenderson Pfft. My mother had a life career as a trauma nurse. She's now the shift supervisor. In her early days, she once played "Another One Bites the Dust" over the PA when a patient passed.
 
It's the only way to handle it really
 
4:23 AM
@MikeyB Those people work in one of the the highest-pressure environments imaginable. Let them blow off some steam
 
You have to look on the light side whe you can
 
Does anyone else have a "chimpanzee in the server room" scenario plan
 
Yeah, you don't keep from snapping without doing crazy stuff once in a while.
 
@Joel Hit the red button that says "FIRE" and then close the door and leave.
 
The idea is: A chimpanzee somehow got in the server room and is swinging on racks, pulling cables and otherwise making a mess. How long do you have to subdue the ape before downtime is achieved?
 
4:25 AM
She said people will think twice about going to the hospital for treatment out of fear they’ll be made fun of or mocked by staff. - yeah but, they're mocking you in the lunch room ANYWAY. Same as you're mocking people dressed in purple parachute pants when you're safely in your car, or you mock the people on Jersey Shore, or you mock people who live in trailer parks.
 
@JeffFerland Like onebox'ing Yelling Bird tweets on The Bridge?
 
In the USA, people think twice about going to the hospital for treatment unless they're 65+ or on the dole because they know they'll go home with a $40,000 bill whether they have insurance or not. I don't think fear of mockery has much to do with it.
 
@MilesErickson Fire suppressant? I guess there's no stipulation that the chimp has to make it back to the zoo alive
 
@MarkHenderson I think anybody who goes to the hospital with a "rectal foreign body" is already aware they're going to get mocked.
 
@Joel Well, here's the thing. If I call 911 and say there's a chimpanzee in my server room, they'll assume it's a prank call.
 
4:29 AM
@Adrian I feel like I should sign off that way tonight
How long is the ban?
 
@Joel If I get in a fight with the chimpanzee, it will kill me.
 
@MilesErickson Would you battle the chimp to maintain uptime?
 
@JeffFerland depends on how pissed Reb gets, I suppose. Mine was an hour
 
@JeffFerland Its moments like these I wish I wasn't a mod
 
@MarkHenderson I'll let you know when I'm done for the night so you can at least watch
"Hey, have you guys ever heard of Yelling Bird? Guy is hilarious... check this one out:" :D
 
4:31 AM
Haha Im going home in an hour, but it would be a nice way to end the working week
 
@Joel In truth, I probably would use food to lure it out of the server room and into an open office area. Then I would lock myself inside the server room and start cleaning things up while everyone OUT THERE figured out how to convince the cops that there really was a chimp on a rampage.
 
@MilesErickson I'm pasting that into my documentation.
 
@Joel Awesome. Just pick up some ripe bananas on the way to work each week and you'll be set.
 
4:47 AM
Alright, I'm tired
Yelling Bird on the Bridge time
Come enjoy the carnage
@MilesErickson @Joel @MilesErickson @Adrian
 
Haha I shall await
 
i'll pass...
 
hits the stopwatch
 
@Adrian Is it bad that I don't even know what I've been invited to?
 
I wonder if the regulars there know this is a thing here...
 
4:50 AM
nothing good can come of this...
 
On an unrelated note, I just saw giant bubbles out this 5th-floor window.
 
i don wanna know
 
@Joel No no, I'm just disappointed they got caught. Should have clarified. Mother was a nurse :)
 
Huh. No flag. Well that's quiet one.
 
Haha theresonly 4 people in there
 
4:51 AM
WTF IT GOT STARRED
 
Maybe they're sick of it :p
 
the bridge.. the bridge.. wait, that's another chat room
 

 The Bridge

General Arqade chat, wherein there is only silent confusion
 
4:52 AM
Awesome. They're now starring Yelling Bird in the Bridge
 
if I were a mod I would fucking pin that shit
Oh.. wait...
 
"They"?
 
haha nah I shan't pin it
That's a bit mean
 
It has 3 stars...
I'm laughing a little too hard
 
4:53 AM
I suspect they're from us :p
 
:)
Aww, went down to 2. Should really hammer it up so it stays there until tomorrow.
 
Try again?
Its profile has the word cunt in i i think
You did get them talking about it though
 
Seriously, why isn't DNS change "propagation" a good terminology? (Re: serverfault.com/questions/374960/…)
@joeqwerty Am I misunderstanding something of the nature the changes get distributed?
 
@IlariKajaste It implies that it spreads out gradually. It doesn't. The only propagation that happens is from master to slave servers.
 
@IlariKajaste Because DNS information is pulled (and cached), not pushed.
 
4:58 AM
@MilesErickson Whether it's pulled or pushed is an insignificant technical detail - what "propagation" describes is the nature it's distributed
 
@IlariKajaste Really, propogation is a concept that the majority of people understand, and it describes the nature of how DNS appears to work
 
We should have a "Bridge Star Party" and get 10 people together ready to star a Yelling Bird mid-day
 
@MikeyB So all other DNS servers query it from the authorative servers?
 
So I think people that have issue with the word are just being pedantic
 
That'd be cool if we could hit double-digits before the kick
@IlariKajaste Yup.
 
4:59 AM
@MarkHenderson Well I'm all OK with pedantics, if there basis for it. I don't see it here.
 
@MarkHenderson It's an OK simplification for the unwashed masses but I would say that on a professional sysadmin site it's incorrect and misleading.
 
@MarkHenderson Well, yes and no... I think the explanation is good.
@MikeyB That
 
@JeffFerland Well if that's the case, if everyone just independently queries it from the authorative server and from other servers, then I would agree it's definately not propagation.
 
@IlariKajaste If I make changes to my zone, the only places that exists is on my servers hosting that zone. Until someone queries for that name and it becomes cached, yeah.
 
0
Q: Debian on HP ProLiant server hangs (disk i/o is my guess)

MartinI installed Debian (2.6.32-5-amd64) on my HP ProLiant MicroServer (purchased recently.) I also added 3 2tb hd in zfs. I've experienced several server froze. Sometimes it showed Soft lockup CUP stuck for 61s! Today I experienced a different problem (I think) and the message looked like this [4313...

Why are people doing this? Why ZFS on Linux? What's the point?
 
5:01 AM
@IlariKajaste Oh, no... not that... oh, so tired to explain...
 
(Not saying it shouldn't be called propagation in some contexts, but I wouldn't like to use it in that case)
 
@IlariKajaste That's it exactly. No one gets DNS information until they ask for it.
 
@MilesErickson Well the question becomes then where do they ask it from...
 
@IlariKajaste They ask their ISP's DNS, usually
If it isn't cached there, then the ISP's NS starts looking for the right server that is authoritative
 
And where does the ISP ask it?
 
5:02 AM
@ewwhite ZFS is the only perfect file system. Why wouldn't someone want to make it work on Linux?
 
@ewwhite Hopefully so the bugs can get worked out on Linux :/
 
@JeffFerland Does the ISP go directy to the authorative server?
 
Oh, I love ZFS... Great thing! But it's pretty clear that it's sketchy/unreliable on Linux
 
@ewwhite The problem is people expecting it to work perfectly on Linux when it is known not to be production-ready on anything except Solaris, Nexenta, and possibly FreeBSD.
 
@IlariKajaste Well, there's a "hints" file that points to the root DNS server... and that changes very rarely
 
5:04 AM
@IlariKajaste OK, so you need chat.stackexchange.com? First you ask the .com name server (which is seeded in the root hints file). That gives you the stackexchange.com servers. Then you ask those servers for chat... (well, you don't. Your DNS server does).
 
So the ISP will load that onto their server. Then, assuming the server has nothing at all cached...
if we're looking up example.org, it was ask the root for "org."
 
so that's why I'm wondering where everyone is getting the idea that they should specifically use ZFS.
 
@MilesErickson I understand it's production-ready on FreeBSD as well.
 
then after it finds the right nameservers for "org.", it will ask those for "example.org."
 
@ewwhite Because everyone always wants the most awesome thing
 
5:05 AM
and if you were looking for "www.example.org.", it would ask the "example.org." server for "www.example.org."
 
for someone getting a $350 HP Microserver, ZFS requires some planning.
so is there a forum post or article somewhere saying "yeah doods, go install ZFS on ALL THE THINGS"?
 
@ewwhite Well, everybody is drooling over ZFS
 
Dammit, can people go look at my Parenting.SE answers and up vote them if you think they're good so I can post my question and go to bed?
 
@ewwhite It's like overclocking.
 
@ewwhite I think a lot of people are just happy they can finally "use" it.
 
5:07 AM
but they're using it wrong...
 
@ewwhite That's never stopped Fedora users.
 
@ewwhite Honda Civics are not engineered for racing, yet...
 
there's a user on the site... "nex7", who wrote a series of posts on his website about ZFS misconceptions...
 
Heh.
29
Q: How do I know who I slept with?

James JiaoI have an ME1 save, but no longer have access to the game itself. I wish to start a new game in ME2 (Xbox 360) based on this save in preparation for ME3. I haven't started the playthrough yet and am wondering how I can tell who I had a romance with in ME1? This will determine how I will make my...

Just the title :D
 
but then you end up with someone complaining about the OOM killer on their Debian server running ZFS in a situation where they should have just lived with XFS....
 
5:09 AM
Super! Done. Going to bed. Have to get up... oh dammit. In 6 hours.
 
@JeffFerland The small heart logo of Gaming.se makes this quite awesome :D
 
@JeffFerland Pales in comparison to:
2
Q: How can I kill my wife discreetly?

CHARLOI am married to Camila from Riverwood, and I realised I would prefer being married to someone who acts as a follower. I don't want to get a bounty or be confronted the guards of Whiterun whatsoever, so how do I kill her discreetly? I'm not going to slaughter her in public.

 
oh my
 
@JeffFerland I don't think I still get it... There's an authorative DNS server for each of those (www.example.com, example.com), right? And they could be different?
 
@MikeyB Done
I can't wait till my son can go potty
I tried the "run around without pants" thing and I got sick of cleaning poop off the carpet
 
5:12 AM
@IlariKajaste DNS is in a hierarchy... so each level can have a different server that is responsible
 
Let's get a ZFS FAQ going. Start it off with: nex7.com/readme1st
 
Alright, my ex who is engaged to a guy completley on the other side of the world is here for cuddles... so... I'm going to have a strange night. Ciao!
2
 
@JeffFerland So if I make a change in www.example.com's authorative DNS server, say 10.11.12.13, it remains cached all around the world.
 
@JeffFerland Yeah thats not weird at all
 
@MarkHenderson I think I've been rather lucky with my daughter. She's VERY eager to learn and do things herself and I've been able to properly reason with her since before she was 2.
@JeffFerland Well, enjoy.
 
5:15 AM
@JeffFerland Bye.
@MikeyB It often feels like I am able to reason with my daugther who still has few months to 2. I do wonder if it's just me filling in the gaps. :)
 
Oh right, I was going to bed. Night all.
 
Oh noes, is there soon nobody left to answer my DNS conundrum...
Night @MikeyB!
 
@IlariKajaste I know there was times when she was just agreeing with things I said, but I also know that sometimes she's really getting it.
@IlariKajaste Yeah, but go do some reading. It's not that hard :)
 
The question is, if I've made a change to the authorative server, when somebody's (ISP's) cache expires, will they (or their ISP) get the new data directly, or will they be more likely to get another cached old data from somewhere else?
Because if it's the latter, then that does cause a propagating behaviour for the change.
 
@IlariKajaste The only reasoning my son takes (he turns 2 in May) is "Do you want to go to Time Out? No? Then go do x "
 
5:24 AM
@IlariKajaste Depends on whether it's already expired from the cache of each upstream DNS server.
 
@MarkHenderson Yeah, I do think it's possible my daughter understands pretty much only that "Ok dad is now explaining something to me, that's good, makes me feel so awesome that he thinks I can understand it. Also, this request he's making apparently has some point and is not whimsical, so I'll feel very very adult if I now follow that request" :D
@MilesErickson ... so there is an upstream?
 
5:39 AM
@IlariKajaste OK. Imagine you have a workstation in a typical Windows domain.
@IlariKajaste You type "serverfault.com" into Google Chrome. Your workstation sends a DNS request to a local DNS server, which is almost certainly a domain controller.
@IlariKajaste Your domain controller might or might not have an answer in its cache.
@IlariKajaste If it doesn't, it's going to ask a forwarder, which may be a DNS server at the office's ISP. It too may or may not have a cached response.
@IlariKajaste Makes sense, right?
 
Yup.
And if the ISP doesn't have it in cache (that is, the cache is expired) then does that ISP ask it again from some other server that may have it in cache?
 
@IlariKajaste If it's a large ISP, probably not.
^ ^ read this
 
@MilesErickson Thanks. With a quick look, that does look like I thought the system works.
But if DNS works that way, it does cause a propagation pattern for the change.
 
51 mins ago, by MikeyB
@MarkHenderson It's an OK simplification for the unwashed masses but I would say that on a professional sysadmin site it's incorrect and misleading.
 
Yes, but if that is the pattern, I don't see how it's a "simplification" in any way.
 
5:53 AM
@MikeyB Reading those questions... I really don't miss any of that.
 
@IlariKajaste Here's the thing: even if you don't agree that it's a misnomer, you shouldn't use the word "propagation" because its use suggests an unsophisticated understanding of how DNS works.
 
@MilesErickson The question is, what information - to a professional sysadmin - is the word "propagation" expected to imply or leave out that some other word or explanation would not leave out or imply.
@MilesErickson But that is just a social issue, and in that case it would also be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Maybe professional sysadmins have some other connotations to "propagation" that people outside their group (me) is not aware of?
Could it be the case "propagation" has siglthly different, or at least more specific, meaning in professional lingo?
Because to me (not a professional sysadmin) the word "propagation" (in connection with information) means a gradual, networked pattern of information spreading. And only that. So if the information in question is a DNS change, that would then fit right into that meaning.
 
@IlariKajaste There is no question that the pattern of information spreading looks like propagation.
@IlariKajaste Of course, that's why people like to call it propagation.
@IlariKajaste Here's the thing. If you register a new DNS record for something that no one has looked up before -- say I create a subdomain puppies.mileserickson.com -- it is available to everyone in the world instantly.
@IlariKajaste There is no "propagation" delay.
@IlariKajaste So, do DNS changes take time to propagate?
@IlariKajaste No, they don't. Outdated DNS information takes time to expire.
 
Hmm, I don't see a difference between something looking like propagation, and being propagation...
To me, "propagation" is a pattern. Is it something else to professional sysadmins?
 
@IlariKajaste Read 4 more lines...
 
6:07 AM
For example, does it imply that the changes have to be distributed by pushing them through the netword?
 
@IlariKajaste Yes, that's why we get hung up on it.
@IlariKajaste Clearly, there is no such process. A new DNS record is available instantly, unless someone has tried to look it up and there is a cached negative result.
 
@MilesErickson Ok, then that does make sense. But it's professional lingo.
I would bet most people (outside the profession), even technical people, consider the term to imply the pattern not the method
 
I'm sure you're right.
But, most people outside the profession also don't know how to use a freaking apostrophe.
 
(Of course, professional lingo is entirely appropriate within serverfault!)
 
I have no interest in behaving like "most people" under any circumstances, unless you care to remind me that most people eat and sleep.
 
6:10 AM
@MilesErickson Yes, and I woudn't say that a new DNS entry propagates, only that a change does.
@MilesErickson Ah, but if we're talking linguistics, we do prefer to behave like most people, even if we'd rather imply that we want to stay culturally separate. :)
 
@IlariKajaste Fnzlb eaue daf blaxmon!
 
@MilesErickson Yeah, but I'm not referring to those people that don't care. I mean I bet the only differentiating factor between people who consider the term "propagation" to imply a method and those that see it as a pattern is whether they're professional sysadmins.
@MilesErickson Bgue.
 
@IlariKajaste This is certainly true.
@IlariKajaste Bgue? Naf schnabblitz bgue arr snirt!
 
@MilesErickson .!
@MilesErickson Ok, then we're in agreement. Thank you for clearing this up for me!
 
@IlariKajaste taj kam bar bar bar, oi!
@ItariKajaste You are most welcome. I take it that you're still drawing a hard line against linguistic originality?
 
6:20 AM
@MilesErickson ohoo, oh, jokos on ookoo jos kokko kokoo koko kokon kokoon?
@MilesErickson Well, I'm going to reword myself when talking with sysadmins. And really, if I talk about DNS changes, it's probably going to be sysadmins I'm talking with. :)
 
@ItariKajaste Arrhar! Kokoo koko kokoo arrhar blum.... arrhar arrhar bwazaa!
@ItariKahaste You know, gibberish could be an excellent medium for steganography.
 
@MilesErickson By the way, the "kokko"-line was pretty much correct and meaningful finnish. :)
Which really probably is related to the gibberish family of languages :D
 
@IlariKajaste I think that the next time I'm traveling in some remote yet over-touristed part of the world and a tout asks me where I'm from, I'm going to say Gibberland.
@IlariKajaste And I think it's fair to say that bonfires propagate.
 
@MilesErickson Would that make you a gibbon then?
@MilesErickson Yup, their changes in the chemical process evnironment are pretty much push-based.
 
@IlariKajaste What's more, a clever administrator can configure a fire's TTL, albeit indirectly.
 
6:52 AM
howdy all
 

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