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12:00 AM
@terdon I don't think it is that bad.
I don't see how anyone could answer why choice X was never as popular as choice Y. We'd have to do marketing surveys. I really don't understand why it was reopened.
Everything is a matter of opinion, to some extent.
@terdon There are often reasons why X is not as popular as Y.
Not quite, at least not unless we're talking philosophically. Most of the questions we get have specific answers.
"Why didn't GNU nano succeed emacs and vim"
@FaheemMitha Yes, but explaining popularity is pretty much an expression of opinion by definition.
12:01 AM
I'm tempted to write a question entitled, why isn't Debian is popular as MS Windows?
@casey :) That one doesn't even make sense!
Now, that's a conundrum.
@casey cuz, M-x butterfly ;)
@FaheemMitha I'd close it in a second :)
@casey Not sure what you mean there.
12:02 AM
@terdon yes, specifically crafted as such
@terdon :-)
My point is, there are a list of obvious reasons why Debian isn't as popular as Windows. And likely most people would come up with similar reasons. So, it isn't that subjective, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.
@FaheemMitha "because it is linux" would answer that question for any distro
I think there is some confusion here between subjectivity and opinion.
@casey I think one can do better than that.
@FaheemMitha Of course it is. All of those reasons would be your own opinion or your speculation on what other people's opinion is on the two OSs.
Technical difficulty, marketing, focus on free software.
12:04 AM
@FaheemMitha OK, why are any of those an issue? Because some people don't like them. Opinion.
@terdon True. So, why is that a bad thing?
@FaheemMitha but there is no need to. The root of the issue is that most windows users don't know about Linux. None of the other reasons you can think of matter to people who don't even know it exists and that is the majority I'd wager.
@FaheemMitha 'Cause it's not a good fit for the Q&A. So quoth the powers that be and in this case I agree.
We'd just get loads of "I think it's because X" answers.
the problem of "why replacement of X didn't replace X?" is just a matter of user usage. The users simply didn't wanted to change, hence developers and maintainers didn't either.
@terdon I wasn't really going for infinite regress here. One can easily find pragmatic reasons why each of those make Debian a hard sell. One could also followup by noting that Ubuntu is much more popular then Debian. Why? By weakening/diluting those issues.
12:06 AM
@Braiam Exactly.
@Braiam Sigh. There are generally reasons why things happen.
@FaheemMitha Which would make a nice blog article but not a Q&A.
Ubuntu has stronger fanboy affinity, thus higher usage
@terdon Well, I wasn't actually going to write a question about it.
@FaheemMitha Yes, but it's very hard to know them. Plus, info is still around and kicking. The OP believes it to be less popular but it's still here. People do use it.
12:07 AM
@FaheemMitha I can list 10 just now
So I really don't get the question.
@casey Because of marketing. And reduced emphasis on Free Software. And they've also pushed back the tech difficulty thing (or attempted to) with their GUI crap. See?
@Braiam 10 what?
@FaheemMitha OK, now prove to me that that's why it happened and not because people prefer Orange themes.
I'd argue the second point. Debianites will be fast to make that claim, but a lot of ubuntu users that came from windows through canonicals marketting don't have a clue about software freedom. They didn't make the choice because of that
1. Users didn't think they needed the change
2. Developers already had tools to make man page creation easy
3. info wasn't widespread enough as man is
4. man just works
5. info seems cranky, doesn't behave the same as man does (learning curve)
6. generating info page is more painful than man page
12:08 AM
I don't exactly know Shirish's reason for asking the question. Most likely simple curiousity.
Make it more that your opinion.
@FaheemMitha reasons ^
@terdon If you want to prove stuff, you need to be doing pure math. Otherwise, you're out of luck.
@Braiam Nice work. So, post an answer.
7. why should I change from info to man when man works?
8. everybody uses man
@FaheemMitha it's mere speculation, isn't a definitive answer
Point is, all of @Braiam's reasons could be true. Or none. Or a combination of them. Or something else entirely. Nobody knows since the question boils down to "why did a very large group of people prefer one tool over another" and that's not answerable.
12:10 AM
network effects, true. hypertexting with keystrokes is hard.
i choose man because i'm biased and there is no info page for man, while there is a man page for info.
@terdon 1 is pretty vague. i think network effects was definitely a big factor. a bit more difficult to use, certainly.
which has nothing at all to do with anything. it just is. and thats why I think the Q is bad
possibly harder to write, though writing a man page is no picnic.
@casey time to agree to disagree, i think
@FaheemMitha look at it another way. If you read the don't ask page, you'll see that that info question matches three out of 5 no-no bullet points.
1. every answer is equally valid
2. there is no actual problem to be solved: “I’m curious if other people feel like I do.”
3. you are asking an open-ended, hypothetical question: “What if ______ happened?”
12:13 AM
@FaheemMitha latex2man
It's a text book opinion-based question.
@casey hmm. good point.
@terdon not really. for example - just works is a daft answer and explains nothing.
@terdon true
@FaheemMitha But it's equally valid as any other since there is no evidence to base an answer on. Therefore, everything will be speculation and so pretty much equally valid.
@terdon i don't see why is hypothetical about it. the question is about why info didn't take off. it's demonstrably true that it didn't take off. though it is still used, though mostly by the gnu project
:18064923 Missed :)
12:14 AM
@terdon what? "just works"?
@FaheemMitha Yes, it didn't take off so much but why? You can only answer that by taking a poll of several hundred *nix users.
@FaheemMitha Yes, "man just works, why change?" is a perfectly valid reason. For all I know, that's why most people don't use info. That kind of sums up why I don't use it for example.
If you guys are concerned about being overrun by idiots asking what-if type questions, I guess that is a valid point, though I'd submit there are many ways and many sorts of bad questions.
@terdon Well, info is an improvement. for one thing, you don't have to have one huge page, you have hyperlinks...
And the community has voted. I'm not going to bring in the mod hammer but if I were not a mod, I would most certainly have voted to close again as soon as that reopened.
granted, the differences between the formats is not huge.
@terdon Fair enough.
12:17 AM
@FaheemMitha Yes, yes, but why did people not buy it? That's unanswerable. A question about how it works, how it compares to man would be fine.
@FaheemMitha completely subjective. I think man is better because I can search one giant page and not have to navigate nodes
@terdon I think that one has been asked already.
@casey Hmm. Fair point.
That's the thing, you'll only get subjective answers about why person X prefers one or the other.
and for every reason you can answer, the opposite is likely to be just as valid an answer
@casey I wouldn't go that far.
12:19 AM
@FaheemMitha Why not? He just did it to you with the 1 vs many pages argument.
I prefer Linux because it crashes less frequently than Windows. No, I like Windows because it crashes more frequently. See? It doesn't work.
@terdon Not in every case.
@FaheemMitha no, the argument would be "I've been running windows for 10 years and never seen the supposed BSOD I see photoshopped by linux zealots all the time" :)
Well, fun as this has been, time for me to retire from the fray.
@FaheemMitha Sure it does. I'm sure you'll find some idiot who believes that. Since neither answer will come accompanied with detailed statistics, it will be very hard to refute.
I should invite Shirish in here. It's his question, should be his argument too.
12:21 AM
Q: Are "why replacement of X didn't replace X?" really answerable questions?

BraiamOk, here's one example. Now, as I noted in chat, I could think of a couple of reasons about the "why's" something happened instead of something else. All of them are sound, and even logical, yet none is definitive and I could even be wrong about it. So, it boils down to "what everyone thinks abou...

@FaheemMitha Getting frayed on the edges huh? :P
@terdon Lunatics and idiots excepted.
oh snap, @Braiam went meta on us
@terdon Well, I've got other things to do... :-) As I'm sure you guys do too.
@casey bringing out the big guns.
12:23 AM
@FaheemMitha the big guns are at meta.SE
@casey fine, the moderately large guns.
A: Tool A vs Tool B questions are not off topic (in my opinion)

PolygnomeThe answer does not really fit the Q&A format as used on SO, as the previous answers have pointed out. There are other sites on the SE network where such question might be asked. A similar (but not equal) question has already been asked on Programmers (see What does SVN do better than git?). Ho...

not quite what you were asking, but not so far off either
@Braiam that title made me immediately think it was going to be about Wayland or Mir though
@casey heh, that is a subjective question
@Braiam true :)
I should get Gilles in here. He voted to reopen (was the 5th and final vote). But he is probably busy trying to be in 10 places at once. Either that, or asleep.
12:40 AM
so, I will make @derobert jelly with my avocado sandwich >:)
@Braiam huh?
@FaheemMitha making derobert jealous
jelly == jealous
@Braiam why / how are you making derobert jealous?
@FaheemMitha I feel like it / with an avocado sandwich that I just ate
because he doesn't know about them
I think
@Braiam He doesn't know about avocado sandwiches?
12:50 AM
@FaheemMitha more like, he has never eat them
@FaheemMitha not asleep yet but almost
@Braiam Oh. I never have, either. I wonder if you can get avocados here. I think they are a central/south american thing.
speak now or be quiet until tomorrow
@Gilles I note you stayed out of it. :-)
@FaheemMitha I don't know what it you're talking about
12:54 AM
@Gilles that reminds me of "speak now or forever hold your peace"
not sure I want to know
@Gilles The argument. See backlog.
@FaheemMitha it was supposed to
the man vs info thing
@Gilles oh
13 hours later…
1:43 PM
Does anyone not agree that this is a dup?
Q: mv and cp directory hierarchy?

TimCan I also move or copy directory hierarchy of a file when I mv or cp the file? For example, if I mv or cp dir1/dir2/file elsewhere, it will only mv or cp file. What if I want to also mv or cp dir1/dir2? Rather than mkdir -p dir1/dir2, can it be done with one command?

Q: Copy specific file type keeping the folder structure

MojoI have a folder structure with a bunch of *.csv files scattered across the folders. Now I want to copy all *.csv files to another destination keeping the folder structure. it works using: cp --parent *.csv /target cp --parent */*.csv" /target cp --parent */*/*.csv /target cp --parent */*/*/*.cs...

Hey @Braiam, what's the link between and what I'm asking here?
@IonicăBizău what plugin is necessary to view YT videos?
@Braiam No plugin, just video streaming from an external source.
@IonicăBizău your question says "Youtube" and there are videos that need flash to be viewed
you didn't said anything about "external source"
@Braiam Hmm... I don't get it. I enabled HTML5 API, so I don't use flash for watching YT videos in browser.
1:49 PM
if you said "view videos in the terminal" is another matter altogether
has nothing to do with my question... I don't know if you understand what I mean.
We gotta have dup for this?
Q: Setting global browsable permissions for subdirectories (r-x) but making files inaccessible to everyone but the owner and group members

Belmin FernandezI typically have a directory where I want all users to be able to browse through but not necessarily give them read and execution access on the files as well. I see some related questions that do not exactly match what I want: This question is using umask. Doesn't apply since these files are a...

From what I know you can watch YT videos with VLC, for example. It doesn't require flash.
@IonicăBizău because VLC has the flash codecs....
look, you need flash to view all youtube videos, that is.
Yeah, probably VLC has this, but then, what's the purpose of HTML5 in browsers?
1:52 PM
@IonicăBizău are we talking about "browsers" or the terminal?
Good question :-)
I understand what you mean.
the terminal needs something to decode the video stream, and that something is called flash
So, I need flash codecs in terminal?
I think you need to take the adobe tag off that Q
it doesn't have to be there as the OP is saying
^- :-)
1:53 PM
YT serves up a variety of formats not just adobe
What you're saying @braiam used to be the case but as far as I'm aware is no longer the case.
reddit.com/r/linux/comments/243jos/… <- Here is a topic on that I asked, but I don't see a clear solution.
@slm how can you play a video if youtube offers you solely the flash format?
because, IMO, the terminal doesn't support WebM, nor other formats
I were you, and just watch videos like normal people, open the browser and let youtube there
@Braiam What if I don't have a normal browser? ;-)
...elinks doesn't support YouTube videos :-(
wait... you don't have a browser?
Well... I'm working on an experiment.
1:59 PM
in any case, it will most likely end in an horrible hack, that could or could not work at some point of time...
just download videos or stream from somewhere else
I get [vo] Video output caca not found! Error opening/initializing the selected video_out (-vo) device.
From what I read, I have to compile mvp, however I don't know where to get the source code from.
I d/l youtube videos all the time and watch them via vlc or mplayer, see my A to your Q @IonicăBizău
the script I mention can do other sites besides youtube-dl
@slm Thanks, but I'm getting ERROR: unable to download video data: HTTP Error 403: Forbidden.
Before that lot of warnings
what video are you trying to d/l
The one you put in answer.
2:07 PM
what distro?
I'm on F20 and it worked for me
if you run those urls through vlc via cmd line you can see that they redirect like this:
[0x7f05a400add8] access_mms access error: error: HTTP/1.1 403 Forbidden
[0x7f05bc0061c8] main input error: open of `http://r14---sn-vgqsen7z.googlevideo.com/videoplayback?ip=
the youtube-dl has be constantly updated
if you're using an older version do youtube-dl -U
there appears to be some cat/mouse game that google plays w/ the urls
@slm Ubuntu 14.04
$ youtube-dl --version
I'm on 14.04 and it works
@slm This is what I get: paste.ubuntu.com/8527053 :-/
$ youtube-dl --version
upgrade it
as I said, Google/YT play games and you have to keep it current
do the curl install
2:26 PM
@slm Yes, after upgrading it, it's working. But, I want to watch them in terminal :-)
Actually, in any bash session.
@IonicăBizău - look to see if you can stream the content from youtube-dl to a player
I've never tried it but imagine it's possible
Actually, that's not such a big issue. My goal is to play videos in ASCII mode.
now you say that...ugh
there are a number of stream to ascii libraries and apps that I've seen on github or are you making one?
@slm I wrote one for images, but not for videos...
Well I'd take a look at how youtube-dl is able to stream content to a file, it's in python so you should be able to see what they do, I'd still use them as a frontend and just have them stream the content to your app instead
2:44 PM
@slm Thank you! Waiting for answer improvements :-)
3:22 PM
@slm I saw your update. It's better, but still not what I want. Is it possible to bring that ASCII window inside of a bash session?
doubt it, the ascii is via mplayer, perhaps you could send that output from mplayer to stdout and then have a shell listening on that /dev to receive it, but I have no time to invest in this further now
Could someone close this as a duplicate of this (or any other that's better) so I'm not accused of being mean again?
@terdon you are not mean... just that you have a hammer :(
I know, but since it involves the same user who took it personally, I'd rather avoid it.
3:39 PM
@IonicăBizău - see updates
@terdon VtC contributed.
@casey Thanks
this is kinda a waste of time but still cool
A: Watch YouTube videos in terminal

slmYou can download videos and/or just the audio and then watch/listen to them using youtube-dl. The script is written in Python and makes use of ffmpeg I believe. $ youtube-dl --help Usage: youtube-dl [options] url [url...] Options: General Options: -h, --help print th...

3:42 PM
@slm Thanks, but I still want to make it to work in a tmux session. :-)
@IonicăBizău - please update your Q, I've offered you 3 solutions and you keep moving the target!!!!!!!!!! 8-)
@slm I will give you enough points to motivate you :-)
I'm done, you have the pieces, try and put them together.
@IonicăBizău yeah, that's really bad form. Perhaps you should accept the answer and post a new question with your specific target.
I have enough
3:43 PM
@slm I know..
> Also, it should be compatible with tmux sessions.
I do things b/c they're interesting problems to solve at this point
I already wrote that in question.
@terdon If it will not be marked as duplicate, I will.
What I have given you is compatible, I think you should rephrase that to say that it will run within a terminal in a tmux session
@slm Asking another question for that.
3:45 PM
@IonicăBizău Link to the original question and explain that you are now asking for more.
I think the ncurses switches to aa on mplayer are the trick, you should be able to redirect that to any terminal now
@terdon Exaclty
@slm @terdon unix.stackexchange.com/q/160243/45370 There you go :-)
Hang on, doesn't @slm's answer already tell you how to do that?
@terdon No, I don't want another window to be opened.
@IonicăBizău Does his last suggestion open a new window?
3:54 PM
OK, and have you tried using vlc? It can also do ascii art. I've kind of broken my apt at the moment so I can't check but it should work.
vlc opens a new window and plays the video in normal mode, does it support ASCII?
Yes and it also has an option for no interface
And will it output the video in the terminal window?
@terdon mm? really, what ppa you added now?
3:59 PM
@Braiam Heh :) All sorts of crap, mixing releases etc. Shhh, don't tell anyone.
Going to switch to arch soon anyway.
I think the only time I broke apt really bad was switching from i386 to amd64 packages... and my system works! :P
:) I had arch on my old laptop and really liked it.
granted, took me a day
@Braiam My system works too! It's just certain packages that don't.
4:04 PM
Can someone please let me know if what am trying is correct/achievable?
4:29 PM
@Ramesh - the tap device you made, is it going into a bridge (br0)?
meaning will you be adding it to one or not?
@slm, I am not sure.
if I check in my host machine, I have virbr2 and virbr4
I believe they are the virtual bridges.
are they shown with brctl show?
yeah. This is the output I get.
bridge name	bridge id		STP enabled	interfaces
virbr0		8000.000000000000	yes
virbr2		8000.5254008144e8	yes		virbr2-nic
virbr4		8000.5254009107d8	yes		virbr4-nic
yeah they're bridges then as I understand things
Ok, So I have host ( connected using wireless interface (wlan0) to the router (
Now, virbr2 is the bridge (or gateway for the guest) to forward the traffic from my guest machine to host machine.
Is my understanding correct so far?
4:37 PM
I barely understand this stuff unfortunately
Q: qemu - two clients (tap0 & tap1) via br0 can't ping eachother but server pings ok

TorxedI've got: A host system running Ubuntu with KVM (functional) Two clients, one Ubuntu and one Windows 7, nothing fancy. I've also setup (see below) a bridge via br0 for the clients: br0: (with DHCP running) eth0 -> br0 tap0 -> br0 tap1 -> br0 br0 can give IP to the clients, the...

this sounds like it's in the space of your Q though
look at the comments they show how you can log martian packets to see if the packets are getting eaten b/w the tap + local host.
that might be all you need to figure out what's going on.
more interesting info
I feel overwhelmed with the amount of info I have in hand now :) I believe the answer lies somewhere deeply buried in the list of links you have given so far.
5:01 PM
@Ramesh - yes, you'll have to play to figure it out. But I think what you seek is there, you just need to wrap your head around it. I look forward to your A 8-)
@slm Sure. I will try to figure it out and thanks for the pointers and encouragement :)
2 hours later…
6:43 PM
It's quiet here today. I suspect everyone left in protest of closing the vim proposal.
6:59 PM
@derobert hey.
i'm here. sort of. the vim proposal was closed?
On the upside, emacs.sx made public beta.
and lots of drama with the closed vim proposal
I warmly welcome all vi/vim users to discuss vi/vim questions at emacs.SE. — Tim 5 hours ago
boy do I wish I could.
someone should follow that up with a meta.emacs.SE post proposing making vim on topic
7:03 PM
super basic question:
grep -R "-O2"
doesn't work. what do i need to do instead?
grep -R "\-O2"
@casey That's cheeky
@casey sounds like a plan. after all, you could write vim in elisp, so by definition it is on topic.
@FaheemMitha it would be the geneva convention of the editor wars
@Patrick Thanks
I see there are a lot of unhappy people wrt the vim shootdown. I feel for you guys.
@Patrick i don't see why i need to escape inside quotes.
@FaheemMitha the backslash is for grep, it's telling it that the - isn't meant as a flag to grep
7:13 PM
@FaheemMitha it isn't for the shell to decide options, it is the underlying C code in grep
@Patrick oh, for grep?
@casey Oh, I see.
One always assumes it's the shell.
The shell slits the command line into arguments... it's entirely up to the program what to do with those arguments.
grep -R -- -02 will probably work too, at least with GNU grep
@FaheemMitha consider:
#include <stdio.h>
int main(int argc, char **argv)
  int i;
  for (i=0; i < argc; ++i)
    printf("Arg %d: %s\n", i, argv[i]);
  return 0;
% ./args "-O2" "\-O2" '-O2' '\-O2' -O2
Arg 0: ./args
Arg 1: -O2
Arg 2: \-O2
Arg 3: -O2
Arg 4: \-O2
Arg 5: -O2
The ones the C code sees as -O2 are going to be interpreted by getopt() as options
and the ones that are escaped will not be
@casey the C code leaves the \- alone?
ok, i'll try to remember that
getopt() will not process them as options afaik
getopt() will only look at options with the first chars as '-' or '--'
7:18 PM
ok, i see.
@casey yeah what the hell logic is that, emacs Y and vim N.
Q: Closing the Vi/Vim Proposal

Robert CartainoProposal: Vi/Vim We recently launched an Emacs site, and the Vi/Vim community quickly followed to have a site of their own. The show of support here was nothing short of amazing. It weighed heavily in our evaluation of this site, but we ultimately decide not to split off Vi/Vim from Stack Overfl...

I did a downvote on the vim question, even though i'm not a vim user.
@slm ... would appear to be no logic at all
It really is ridiculous.
7:19 PM
@slm doesnt make sense to me.
Its like they had the same conversation regarding both proposals but came to different decisions
Everyone should go there and downvote. If that gets a few hundred downvotes, maybe those people will reconsider
@Patrick @FaheemMitha - I think you can also do this grep -R -- "-02"
@slm what does the -- do?
5 mins ago, by derobert
grep -R -- -02 will probably work too, at least with GNU grep
tells the command to stop looking for switches
7:21 PM
@FaheemMitha GNU utilities use -- to mean end of options, nothing after -- is treated as an option
always as a file name, or whatever.
@derobert Oh. That is not a posix thing, then?
I'm pretty sure its a GNU extension. But I haven't checked.
posix doesn't touch convention, and -- would be convention
it might say a specific utility should treat -- in such a way, but not all utilities as a rule
@Patrick ok
@derobert ok
what's the man page that shows the core stuff to gnu?
I know I read about -- in some man page but it's not in greps
7:26 PM
@slm Maybe you're thinking of the GNU coreutils info page?
info coreutils.info brings that up here
Is there anyone here who is familiar with the abhomination known as Boost Build?
Here's where I saw it, in the coreutil FAQ
Does anyone see anything wrong with this line?
export BJAM = $(BOOST_BUILD_V2_INSTALL)/bin/bjam --ignore-site-config --user-config= -q
is it ok to have spaces for an env variable without quotes?
@FaheemMitha yes, it is
7:36 PM
$ export BLAH=hi hi
$ echo $BLAH
wrap in quotes
@slm hmm.
so, quotes around everything?
also spaces aren't allowed
around the equal sign of the var
That's usually what I do
would the $(BOOST_BUILD_V2_INSTALL) thingy still get replaced?
@Gilles ok. so, i guess one can use it, then. thanks.
7:38 PM
> The guidelines are intended to provide guidance to the authors of future utilities, such as those written specific to a local system or that are components of a larger application. Some of the standard utilities do not conform to all of these guidelines; in those cases, the OPTIONS sections describe the deviations.
@Gilles "standard utilities and introduces terminology used throughout IEEE Std 1003.1-2001". it only applies to utilities defined within POSIX, not outside
@Patrick read the passage I just quoted. It is a recommendation for authors of utilities.
it's a SHOULD in RFC terminology
applied to applications, not just to implementations
RFC? Request for Comments?
@slm yes, specifically RFC 2119
God this is so old school, they're defining SHOULD and MAY
I haven't the patience to read all these.
7:44 PM
@Gilles interesting. I wasn't aware getopt() was posix
On a doorway in Dover
I once stumbled over
a programmer wrapped in a sheet.
This poor prostrate nerd
didn't utter a word
as he lay there half-blocking the street.
The DBA's Demise - a recitation 11
"From your face I can see
that you work in IT
what has brought you to this sorry state?"
This poor wretched geek
then started to speak
and told me his terrible fate
Cruel fortune had picked him,
as sad deadlock victim.
The conflict had left him for dead;
for wise men don't mess
with a deadlocked process
@Patrick though you need to set POSIXLY_CORRECT to get pure posix behavior out of it
the poem that @TylerMaginnis quoted
It's titled: The DBA’s Demise: a recitation.
A: Closing the Vi/Vim Proposal

rolfl@shog9 suggested I put together a list of questions scattered around SE that would have been successful on a vim.se site. Part of the motivation for this is that it has been suggested: The best argument for splitting off a topic is that there's no single site where the entirety of it is alrea...

Boy they really screwed the pooch on this!
00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

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