@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you're going to use any expression, you need to know the consensus among literati, about how the expression is supposed to be used. It doesn't matter whether it is Latin or English.
@Cerberus That's just elitist snobbery. I don't care what the "literati" hoi polloi's consensus is. irregardless of what they think, I think people can use words in English differently than how they were used in Latin.
@Cerberus foot stomping can get heated. and with socks off a bit smelly (there for e the need for socks as presents. for xmas. bona fide socks, not those multitoed things.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Because the extension is unwarranted: it is more like an entirely different meaning, and one that we already have several perfectly good words for. In that capacity, it sounds like a genteelism, trying to sound important. And in educated language one must be especially careful with changes in potentially presumptuous words.
@Cerberus No, I'm not saying that any clinging to linguistic traditions is snobbery. I'm saying that claiming that some group of "literati" get to agree or disagree on how a word should be used is snobbery. They are not the only keepers of the traditions.
I've never bona fided anyone. wait...what are we talking about? Did MRS use it as a verb? That's a godawful illeteracy if I've ever heard one. And I mean that to sting.
@Cerberus International consensus? we'll burn down your parliament, piss on your flag, eat your roadside cuisine, then say 'oh, I'm sorry, we were trying to stamp out the bad people, you know to help out the population'. Maybe just stop at 'oh I'm sorry'.
Cripes, I know...off topic...let me see, back to xmas barbs.
@Cerberus I don't find it stupid. I can't speak for how Germans find it. They might find it funny and yet also useful. There are lots of English words that english speakers make fun of. So what?
@Mitch Burning down parliament would be inconvenient. You may piss at my flag if you like to, though.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So those words function in an informal context where irony is appropriate. But in a context of formality and boasting complex phrases?
@Cerberus Sure, it's not JUST a means of communication. But that's it's primary function. And in that function people communicate stuff. And if the communication is received properly then it's goal has been accomplished. And if those communicators used "bona fide" to mean "genuine" as an extension of "made in good faith, sincere", then sure, a Latin speaker might tear his toga in rage, but the English speakers were just speaking English. Just like an English speaker might giggle at "Handy".
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If communication is not a problem, because it is easy enough to convey the required information, why even talk about it? Do not aesthetics become more important then (unless they inhibit the efficacy of communication)?
@Cerberus Perhaps the writer was using "bona fide" ironically, to emphasize that the REAL Kindle reader is the real one, but by putting that little label on it, which draws attention to itself, you are actually saying that it is meaningless that one is "authentic" and the other not.
@Cerberus I am telling you that I do not necessarily disagree with the aesthetics of using "bona fide" in this way. The word has more meanings than you allow and lots of people use it that way, non-ironically. Personally I probably would not use it, but in the context of the quote you posted, I think it's fine.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ehh I don't fully understand this irony you are describing, but, yes, if it had been used in an appropriate ironic way, that would of course be fine. But there was no trace of irony. It is was just a misguided way of trying to sound genteel or sophisticated.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I still don't understand why you think "many people use it" should convince me. Many people misspell words, including myself; doesn't mean I am going to defend my own bad practice.
@Cerberus Well, what I mean is, he's calling the Kindle "bona fide", i.e. authentic, but in a way that means that this is not a virtue, or else a totally irrelevant detail. Contrast with a bona fide Lamborghini vs a knock-off. In that case the "authentic" one is probably much better. And using "bona fide" in this case draws attention to the "authenticity".
@Cerberus it is short hand for 'mnay people have used it that way for a long time and so it is considered standard English now' as oppose to ' many people have used it that way for a long time and is recognized as a stupid school boy error'
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm sorry, I really can't follow your reasoning here. If you were using bona fide the wrong way but ironically, that means you are somehow echoing those who use it the wrong way. And that certainly wasn't the care. There was no irony.
I am suggesting that the writer used "bona fide" instead of "real, genuine, authentic" to draw attention to the realness, authenticity, or genuineness of the Kindle, in a way that downplays that characteristic while using a "fancy" word for it.
@Cerberus And I say it is always a form of communication — on multiple levels and axes. It goes beyond mere denotation, even connotation, even nuance, to communicate things like emotion, class, political bent, whatever. But the point is, it is always communication.
@Cerberus Sure there's a reason to. Bona fides says something less formal and specific than credentials. It probably just refers to whatever vetting process the company has in place.
There are zillions of ways to say every single thing. English is richer for that. Piss on anyone who wants to pare it down to a single prescribed formula for every expression.
Seriously, @Cerb, that is so self-evident I can't believe you said what you did. I can't believe you could even make the words come out of your mouth.
@Cerberus I am just suggesting a reason for using that word. I can't know what the writer was thinking. I, personally, would almost never use "bona fide" ever. Is there ever a time when one of its straight-forward, short, non-latin synonyms wouldn't serve? I'd probably grab one of those first.
@Robusto Yes, okay, in that way. Then it also needs to communicate subconscious stimuli to effect an aesthetic experience in the listener, and so style becomes important. Usually subordinate to the simple conveying of information—in so far as the two can be separated—, but still. Oh, and in certain genres I think style even trumps simple information, like poetry.
@Mitch I am glad you feel that way. Putting on airs is what makes it bad.
@Robusto What is so evident?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then even we are agreed, it seems.
@Cerberus Agreed in not using it, perhaps. Not agreed in the quoted writer being wrong to use it. I also wouldn't reach for the words "lorry" or "lift" when I mean to say "truck" or "elevator"
wait I know. have you noticed how at the same time, obesity rates are skyrocketing and mostly by things changeable by controllable behavior, but there's more and more anti-obesity-bullying?
@Cerberus is that a statement isn't 'convincing' an explanation is (or isn't) convincing. I'm just repeating MRS's point, because you set yourself up for that with the 'bona fide' brouhaha/kerfuffle/
@Cerberus well, some fat people don't eat a lot. It's more the quality of what they eat. Or their really low metabolism and total lack of exercise. It's unrealistic to ask them to eat less. Perhaps impossible.
I saw this episode of What Would You Do (yes, Mitch, I'm hooked, I love it), where this guy approached a fat mother and daughter in the supermarket to comment on what was in their trolley.
@Mitch Ehhh you've lost me. If a statement is argumentative, I don't see why it couldn't be convincing.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes, exactly my point. that's kind what should be said to help stop the problem, but it seems unable to be said because it is bullying. Ergo a dilemma.
which need to be managed.
by the authorities.
by adding caffeine to all products with high fructose corn syrup
@Mitch Well, there are people who disagree with the very notion that being fat is "bad", and so they view any attempt to convince them that it is "bad" as bullying.
@Cerberus ... yes, sorta, maybe. It's more complicated than that. Usually eating "different" would be a better recommendation. But it would require a whole lifestyle change. Apparently people are unable to do that, usually.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 or the food manufacturers could stop putting high fructose corn syrup in absolutely everything. just like the could stop putting absolutely everything in a cardboard box and plastic wrapping which is filling our landfills/garbage dumps.
i.e. that cellophane wrapper on the cucumber means far less food spoilage and thus much more efficient delivery, which reduces greenhouse gasses beyond those incurred by packaging the food.
my kids were so good I'm still surprised about it. No meltdowns and hardly any disagreeing. It was actually a little out of character for them. Granted: we didn't let them stay up late. But still! And yesterday they left to go to Grandma's house so it's quiet today.
we had a good christmas overall. both sets of grandparents came, and also our neighbour from across the street, and the food was good and the headache that was threatening to explode didn't. So I was pretty happy.
my daughter got a bag of candy that are shaped like lego bricks. she didn't notice that they were candy. She started building something with them and said that that was her favourite present: the multi-coloured lego.
@Cerberus most, how? percentage? anyway that doesn't surprise me. My parents were walking through a mall and they didn't overhear anyone speaking english. not one person. then they realized that they were discussing this fact in french.
@Cerberus It's quite likely. NZ is strange. Auckland contains huge percentages of every skin colour you can possibly imagine. Then, the further south you go, the more uniformly white the faces are.
Yes, but the indigenous population is concentrated in the same way as the non-white immigrants. And they're also a minority. The largest ethnic group among non-immigrants is caucasian.
Ah, of course; Auckland is not the same city as it was in 2001.
It used to be a cluster of 4 or 5 cities, like the Wellington region. Auckland was just one of those cities. A few years ago, they all amalgamated and named themselves Auckland. So Auckland is now one huge city.
English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…
English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…