English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Matt Эллен

12:03

@Chris english.stackexchange.com/questions/55672/…

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Vit so I'm raiding and raiding, and haven't got a single item so far. Not one. Only gold and XP. Might as well not bother.

Vitaly

12:19

@RegDwightѬſ道 Have you claimed your honor yet? 7 items are guaranteed for 220 honor in Tartarum Swarm, plus another 90% chance of getting an eighth item, if I understand the mechanics right.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Ah. So I don't get items for individual battles? Stupid and unintuitive.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 What, WMT UI is unintuitive? Stop the presses!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

And TS was the very first raid I was done with. Not doing that one again.

@Robusto it's not just the UI. This time it's the mechanics.

Robusto

Leveled to 82. Another brick in the wall.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен What's wrong with "no skin off my teeth"?

Also: this video is amusing:

►

Matt Эллен

12:31

@MrShinyandNew安宇 it's nonsense

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Do you not have the expression "by the skin of your teeth"?

Matt Эллен

"no skin off my nose" is quite the opposite of an exaggeration, whereas teeth skin is always an exaggeration because teeth have no skin

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that is unrelated

it does not mean the same thing

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's probably just a confusion of two sayings. "no skin off my back" (as I'm used to hearing it - but skin removal anywhere is typically painful, so body parts don't matter too much) and "by the skin of your teeth".

I'd hardly call it an American thing or even a thing.

Matt Эллен

I agree

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that's what the free dictionary says

KitFox

Ohai!

Matt Эллен

12:35

ohai!

3 hours ago, by Matt Эллен

I've been trying to ponder copulae some more and came across beest. So, is this a proper subjunctive sentence? "Thou beest a doctor were I a dog?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

omai!

Matt Эллен

3 hours ago, by Matt Эллен

@MattЭллен well, I mean, is it a proper subjunctive sentence in early modern English?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i.e. the free dictionary says it is an Americanism

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Of whom dost thou asketh?

Matt Эллен

of anyone

but no one was answering earlier

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Well, I don't live in america. But I've never heard it anywhere, not even on tv. That I can recall.

Matt Эллен

12:36

and no one gives such terrible answers

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That sounds like you're saying we give such terrible answers, and you're surprised to find that.

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 "Of whom dost thou ask" — not "asketh" ... You could say "Of whom asketh thou."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like you're accusing us of gasp trolling.

@Robusto yeah I'm just making stuff up

Matt Эллен

le gasp! I would never

Robusto

Annnnnnnnnyhoo, commute, laterz.

Matt Эллен

12:38

CU

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

wheee! Robusto comes in and corrects MY archaic English, but not yours. IN YOUR FACE!

2

Matt Эллен

You stand corrected

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I sit wrong.

Matt Эллен

I write wrongs

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Jul 15 '11 at 19:15, by RegDwight

Writers is the new Wrongers.

Matt Эллен

12:41

lol

KitFox

I'm doing something fun today!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You know, I hope they keep this chat room alive forever, so that I can pop in in 20 years, make some kind of comment, and Reg can quote a witty reply that he wrote in 2010.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox what's that?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 you assume that I will be here in 20 years.

KitFox

@MattЭллен Building a data warehouse!

Whee!

Whee! Whee!

Matt Эллен

12:43

Whooo! Data whorehouses are the best

Well, ok, I've never actually built one

KitFox

My littlest boy has taken to saying "Whee!" anytime he is happy. He sounds like the pig in that commercial.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

By then this room will be filled with Thursagens and Thursagans. Everyone else will have been died by the Maya.

KitFox

It's supercute.

...wait, did you say whorehouses?

Matt Эллен

:D

KitFox

sketches diagram

RegDwight Ѭſ道

12:44

18 hours ago, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

Nonono, that would be Mr Whorny and New over there.

KitFox

That's brilliant!

Matt Эллен

I know someone who is super good at data warehousing

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 You will be. you can't help it. Anyway by then you won't be able to leave your computer because it will be surrounded by MISB Lego kits. Your wife, not having seen you in a few years, will nevertheless continue to lob care packages of food over the top of the pile. In 2027 you will attempt burrow out by building a digging machine out of lego but that plan will fail when you find that the innermost boxes of Lego are all "Lego Friends" and thus useless for machinery.

Matt Эллен

she has done stuff with data cubes to, I believe

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 Who is that? He sounds like an upstanding fellow.

KitFox

12:45

@MattЭллен Kinda got to.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 useless for machinery? My wife requested just the other day I build a pink excavator.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 but it won't actually excavate, not enough anyway, to dig you out of your self-made lego tomb.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox I see

this is why I've never built one

I don't know the first thing about it

KitFox

Oh, it's really fun.

Flattening stuff and denormalizing things.

It's like Play-Doh time for data structures.

My little pinchpot table for the sales data.

Matt Эллен

sounds crazy

KitFox

12:49

It's AWESOME!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Wow speaking of Mr. Whorny and New, i really did get lots of rep yesterday from that answer. How is it that that shitty question, with two downvotes, closed once, re-opened by the grace of Reg, now in danger of closing again, gets me SEVEN upvotes, when I have much better answers on much better questions that get me SQUAT.

KitFox

It's like when you spend hours building the perfect metropolis in SimCity, then you rain down hellfire and brimstone, and send a tornado and Godzilla to destroy it all.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You need to post links to your good answers in here, and also make some edits that bring them to the top of the pile again.

cough

Matt Эллен

@KitFox oh! that kind of awesome :D

KitFox

It makes me a little giddy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox yeah, maybe I should go on an editing spree, just to finally beat 10k

RegDwight Ѭſ道

12:51

@MrShinyandNew安宇 the crucial part is my involvement. I am awesome, duh.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Some people have been known to do that, including shameless vulpids.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Feb 16 '11 at 13:30, by RegDwight

But I think that Ex-user is spot on anyhow: it all evens out in the end. You take your time to compose a thorough answer, you get 2 upvotes. You post a half-assed joke, you get 20. In the end, you still have 22 upvotes, whether you would prefer them to be the other way round or not.

KitFox

What's the upper limit for an unsigned integer again?

Matt Эллен

2^32

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 It evens out if I don't play by the "rules".

Matt Эллен

12:53

if it's a 32 bit integer

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox what kind of integer

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Unsigned!

KitFox

32-bit.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 oh, that kind. The answer is OVER 9000.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox 4294967295

RegDwight Ѭſ道

12:54

I always sign my integers, dot their Is and cross their Ts.

KitFox

Why can I never remember that?

Matt Эллен

because it's a silly looking number

RegDwight Ѭſ道

NO U

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox just think "4 billion"

KitFox

I should be able to remember 2^32 though.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

12:55

@KitFox I'll ask you again tomorrow.

KitFox

And yet, every time, it's "oh yeah! duh."

debates whether to use int or bigint

Matt Эллен

just remember it's 100000000000000000000000000000000 in base 2

KitFox

Right.

Matt Эллен

I did have to count the 0s twice

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024
2k 4k 8k 16k 32k 64k 128k 256k 512k 1M
2M 4M 8M 16M 32M 64M 128M 256M 512M 1B
2B 4B

RegDwight Ѭſ道

12:56

Everything must be counted twice in base 2.

Vitaly

Hey @Matt, can you tell me what percentage of the questions is about biases when you try to be a stranger?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен shouldn't the upper limit be 11111111111111111111111111111111?

Matt Эллен

@Vitaly oh. I don't know. sorry

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I knew I'd do that

it's 31 1s

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

integer overflow!

it's 32 1s

unsigned, right?

Matt Эллен

no

32 1s would give you 2^33 - 1

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13:00

@MattЭллен um... really?

Matt Эллен

whereas the upper limit of a 32bit number is 2^32 -1

@MrShinyandNew安宇 um, no

arg I hate maths

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен the upper limit of an unsigned 32 bit number is 32 1s

the lower limit is 32 zeros

Matt Эллен

it's 1 followed by 31 1s

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No, it's 16 1s followed by 16 ones

come on, byte ordering! sheesh

what are you, some kind of big-endian bigot?

KitFox

Look what I have started.

Now we're on to O notation.

Matt Эллен

13:02

Oh! notation

or is that something else?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

My O is bigger than his O, for all values of N

Matt Эллен

I don't thik I'm ever going to experience your O

KitFox

Now, now, I didn't say anything about big O notation.

Nothing to get Oprah worked up about here.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Phantom of the Oprah?

Matt Эллен

RegDwight Ѭſ道

13:04

No, that's the phantom of the rappra.

Matt Эллен

that was a silly cartoon. big robots though, so thumbs up!

@RegDwightѬſ道 no! it's Big O

KitFox

I need a big O.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MattЭллен Last time I met Bushwick Bill he looked exactly like that.

KitFox

ponders

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Ghost in the Texaco.

0

Q: "my best" vs "my level best"

Is there any difference between these two sentences? which one is correct while speaking ? I will do my best. Or I will do my level best.

Matt Эллен

13:09

I want iterate over a list of structures and take from each structure property a and property b and put them into a 1D array that ends up as [a1, b1, a2, b2, ..., an, bn]

I really want to use linq, but I guess a for loop will do

@RegDwightѬſ道 that's a very basic question.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Honestly: how did an answer posted after me, which cites my answer as the correct fact, end up "Accepted"?

17

Q: Why "homophobia" and not "sexualism" or similar?

A phobia is an irrational fear of something. An intolerance to something is usually an -ism, not a -phobia, as in sexism racism ageism Yet people who object to homosexual practices or discriminate against homosexuals are labelled "homophobic" and their intolerance is labelled "homophobia". Bu...

etymology synonyms

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 more white space in the accepted answer

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен that's just racism. Black space power!

Matt Эллен

I would hazard that there is a lot more black space than white space in the universe

it's positive discrimination

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Space has no color.

Matt Эллен

13:18

so then colour has no space!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

0

Q: Is there a difference between "bitter" and "better" in pronunciation?

I was wondering if there was any difference between "bitter" and "better" in pronunciation? My assumption is that one is pronounced with a soft "d" as in "better" and the other one with a hard "t" as in "bitter". What do you guys think?

pronunciation words

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Life is unfair.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The wording of that question is hilarious.

user19161

In Soviet Russia, space has colour and colour has space!

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Don't we have a canonical answer for the e/i phonemic convergence in certain dialects?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The ways of crowd-sourcing are infinitely mysterious.

user19161

13:24

@RegDwightѬſ道 I am trying to divine who it is.

Robusto

@JasperLoy Appeals to a deity will not help. You gotta put in your own work around here.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 OK, let's see your Big O face.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto (^O^)

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto I can't find it.

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 And we have a winner.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I have checked all answers of nohat's, I'm not seeing it.

Robusto

13:33

@RegDwightѬſ道 Actually, I prejudged the question. It's not about e/i, it's about vocalization of the t sound in the two words.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Robusto nope.

See the comments and the edit history.

That's what others thought, too, but then the OP edited it right back.

Robusto

2 days ago, by Robusto

Welcome to ELU Lite! Where even basic ask get responding plenty! Not you hide from those immediate! Or in now time!

Matt Эллен

or is noah just stubborn?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Actually I'm not sure if nohat's answer was about E/I.

So let me see again.

Well, that was fast.

11

A: How do you properly pronounce 'mall'?

There are a couple confusions at work here. First, there are different "lexical sets" the word could fall into: TRAP, LOT, BATH, CLOTH, PALM, THOUGHT, NORTH, FORCE. For the most part, most speakers and dictionaries of English agree that mall is either pronounced with the vowel for THOUGHT or ...

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Perfect comment to make when you realize someone's starvation diet lasted only a few hours.

Matt Эллен

13:39

interesting. My mother was talking about spending time in the moll the other day. I have always called it a maul, which means, shame of shames, I have been using American pronunciation

I will summarily execute myself later

Nathan C. Tresch

Americans dont say maul.

Robusto

@MattЭллен Maybe she meant moll as in gun moll.

Matt Эллен

Phew!

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah, it's Germans who say maul.

KitFox

I say maul.

Matt Эллен

13:41

@Robusto oh! maybe. although the would put my dad in a rather different light

Nathan C. Tresch

Not all americans say it like that

None from the area I'm from

KitFox

Which region are you from?

Nathan C. Tresch

Oh, I do say it as rhymes with ball.

Matt Эллен

yeah, so you see, maul rhymes with ball

Nathan C. Tresch

m-all.

Matt Эллен

13:42

in my dialect

Nathan C. Tresch

I see. Maul rhymes with awl in mine.

Matt Эллен

and mine

Nathan C. Tresch

Er

Maul and Awl have a different vowel sound than Mall or Ball

In most american dialects

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Darth Pall Mall.

Matt Эллен

@NathanCTresch maul -> mɔl, awl -> ɔl

Nathan C. Tresch

13:45

I dont know what that symbol means.,

KitFox

Maul, awl, mall, all have the same vowel sound to my ear.

Matt Эллен

ball -> bɔl

@KitFox yup, all the same to me too

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch Mall, Maul, Awl, Ball, all, all have the same vowel to me.

KitFox

Well, I am a New Englander.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But @NathanCTresch did you read Nohat's answer that was linked above?

KitFox

13:46

So there is probably more Brit influence in my pronunciation patterns.

Matt Эллен

@NathanCTresch it's just the IPA symbol for the vowel sound. I'm demonstrating that it's recorded at dictionary.com as being the same vowel for all of maul, awl and ball

Nathan C. Tresch

From the dictionare

maul [mawl]

Oh, it looks like the Northwest uses the brit pronunciation of Mall.

M-ah-ll.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 Yeah. And a lot of times I hear words like voll shading a little toward what would be fall in AmE.

Nathan C. Tresch

I had always understood that saying "mall" like "mawl" was the dialect.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch yeah it's really inaccurate to talk about "American" pronunciation. There's too much variation.

Nathan C. Tresch

13:52

Heh!

Erm

You're saying that there's no such thing as uninflected american pronunciation?

Because there is.

Matt Эллен

it's called British with Bad Spelling ;)

Robusto

@MattЭллен ɔɔɔɔɔɔɔɔɔɔɔɔɔ! is what my wife says when she sees babies or kittens.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch really? who determines what that is?

Robusto

Nah. This is Bad Spelling. ^

Matt Эллен

LOL

RegDwight Ѭſ道

13:58

There is no such thing as good spelling, then.

Matt Эллен

globally speaking, yes there is. Spelling I like is good spelling.

Nathan C. Tresch

@MrShinyandNew the american dictionary, most notably the Cambridge American Dictionary.

Websters is also cited as authoritative in regards to uninflected american pronunciation.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch So the dictionary determines the "right" American pronunciation, and anyone who deviates from that has an accent?

Nathan C. Tresch

Yes?

The pronunciation of news anchors on network television is an example of uninflected american pronunciation.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch Many network TV personalities have been Canadians, specifically because they sounded "generic", i.e. with an accent that didn't place them as coming from any particular part of the country.

Matt Эллен

14:05

what all that aboot, eh?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

oh you and your aboot

it's a myth.

Matt Эллен

:D it's fun for winding up Canadians

It's not a myth to my ears

Nathan C. Tresch

@MrShinyandNew yes, that's true, canadians speak without an accent, with the exception of canadians from Vancouver BC

Matt Эллен

unless I mythheard

Nathan C. Tresch

Who say Aboot.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:07

@NathanCTresch No canadian that I've ever heard says "about" differently from any American I've ever heard.

Nathan C. Tresch

Have you met any from Vancouver, BC?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I've been to Vancouver several times, for vacations.

Nathan C. Tresch

Because all of the people I've met from there day it that way.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 eh? the woman in Space Janitors might not have said aboot exactly, but it was definitely different to about

Nathan C. Tresch

I live in Seattle and I go there all the time

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:08

I would love to hear a recording of the various people saying "about"

@MattЭллен what time in the video?

Nathan C. Tresch

@Matt you're definately correct about some canadians saying it that way.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 remind me in 3 hours, I will find it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And what vowel sound are we talking about? oot as in boot? oo as in book? roof?

Matt Эллен

boot

Robusto

@NathanCTresch Definately?

Nathan C. Tresch

14:10

painintheenglish.com/case/4413

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 it sounds closer to oo than to ow

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен I have never, ever encountered a person that rhymes "about" and "boot". they sound completely distinct to me and everyone I know.

Nathan C. Tresch

The URL I just pasted explains it.

@MrShinyandNew painintheenglish.com/case/4413

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch It is still completely distinct from anyone's pronunciation of "boot"

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 you just can't hear it because you're Canadian

Nathan C. Tresch

14:12

@MrShinyandNew No, it isnt.

@MrShinyandNew It sounds the same to us.

@MrShinyandNew I suppose next you're going to say that canadians pronounce sorry the same way americans do.

Matt Эллен

Feb 12 at 7:44, by Mahnax

She says saw-ry while I say sore-ry.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch you are going to have to provide me with a recording of a person saying "boot" and a Canadian saying "about" before you can convince me that they have the same vowel.

And the Wikipedia article on "Canadian raising" says that it's also widespread in various parts of the US.

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I remember first hearing it when I watched the film Fargo

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch Not all Americans pronounce "sorry" the same way, so what's your point

@MattЭллен gods, Fargo. Nowhere else have I ever heard anyone talk like that.

Matt Эллен

I see. Was it exaggerated, then?

or do you mean the place?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:21

@MattЭллен No, the movie. From what I've heard, that is the way they speak in that region. But it sounded really odd to me; I've never met anyone who talks that way. Except people from that region.

Matt Эллен

Ah

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So, I guess I mean the place, the movie being a supposedly accurate representation of it.

or something.

Matt Эллен

:D

Nathan C. Tresch

@MrShinyandNew well, all americans who speak uninflected american english pronounce it the same way

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch psh. That's just snobbery. There is no such thing as "uninflected". People just talk in certain ways. Sometimes someone decides that a certain accent is more prestigious and they put a stamp of approval on it.

Nathan C. Tresch

14:23

Yeah, this site sucks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch which site? ELU? this chat room?

Nathan C. Tresch

The site I'm looking at for my work, sorry

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@NathanCTresch oh, phew! :)

I thought maybe I offended you.

anyway, work time. bye!

Matt Эллен

cya Mr.S

Robusto

14:48

1

A: "my best" vs "my level best"

Go for "I will do my best." "level best" is cliched and unnecessary to express this idea.

Someone really wants to ban level from the English language, I guess.

Matt Эллен

he's doing his level best

Nathan C. Tresch

It's really hard for me to reconcile "cliched" with a phrase I've never heard used in common speech.

Matt Эллен

The funny this is, the link he provides to bolster his argument says he is wrong

Nathan C. Tresch

Yeah

Matt Эллен

> A person who passionately argues that level best is wrong will be making the same mistake. He will be wasting his breath. There is nothing wrong in saying level best.

Nathan C. Tresch

14:53

I caught that too

Robusto

@MattЭллен And yet he remains undeterred by the facts.

Matt Эллен

well, you can prove anything even remotely true with facts

Nathan C. Tresch

I've found on this site that a great many people ignore facts.

Matt Эллен

I know I do, it makes my answers better

Nathan C. Tresch

Matt, please say that again all on one line so I can star it

;)

(Seriolusly, I want to)

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…