English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

7:00 PM

@RegDwight Ah, thanks.

> As a convention, CHAOS members put a secret handshake, the Greek letter psi (Ψ), after their name.

I'm sorry, but come on...

RegDwight

It's Joel, man. He's funny. Relax and enjoy.

aedia

►

Kit

Global World Domination? As opposed to Local World Domination?

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus (From the wikipedia articles, this is all I know about either.) Epicureans believe in gods and are religious and are not about logic. Stoics are more about logic and self control.

RegDwight

@Kit Well, we are a global village.

Cerberus

7:01 PM

@RegDwight I'm sure he is... but... well...

Kit

@RegDwight So we're village people now?

simchona

@GraceNote Maybe I WANT him to make lace

RegDwight

@Kit What does you means by "now"?

Cerberus

@MattEllen Hmm that's not really how I'd put it.

Grace Note

@simchona Eh?

simchona

7:02 PM

Tat/that

RegDwight

Sorry folks I have 100 stamina and 100 energy to spend. Brb.

Grace Note

Oh. Huh, I didn't know that was related to lace.

aedia

@Kit Why am see "a"?

Kit

@aedia thwack

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus I'm more trying to get on the path to the übermensch

simchona

7:03 PM

So this guy stays on EL&U?

Pacerier, SG

834 1 9

Cerberus

@MattEllen Ah, so Nietzsche.

aedia

@Kit Yes, mistress. Won't happen again, mistress.

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus Yeah

Cerberus

As long as you keep his fascist sympathies under control, I'm sure you'll be all right with him!

Matt Ellen

accepting that there are things I need to improve, embracing that and trying to get better

@Cerberus TSZ didn't seem to have fascistic tendencies, so I guess I'm ok so far :D

Cerberus

7:06 PM

TSZ?

RegDwight

@simchona I have left my last comment on his post, I won't be leaving any further ones. But if he just goes away or starts posting stellar stuff, he won't get banned. He still has a chance. It's up to him to use it; it's not up to me to deny it to him.

Matt Ellen

sorry, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Cerberus

Ah, ASZ.

Got it.

Matt Ellen

:D

My book

's a different translation, clearly :)

Cerberus

He wasn't all fascist, and you're probably right about Zara (haven't read it).

From the Wiki article on Übermensch:

> There is no overall consensus regarding the precise meaning of the Übermensch, nor one of the importance of the concept in Nietzsche's thought.

Matt Ellen

7:09 PM

The part I find hardest, and haven't got in the least, is not feeling pity for people. When people're down, TSZ says feeling pity for them is an insult.

Cerberus

Right, that is a nice example of fascist thought.

Matt Ellen

it's not my understanding of fascist. fascism, to me, is where you force your way of being on others. this seems like the opposite

RegDwight

@MattEllen That's what Cerberus calls prescriptivism.

Matt Ellen

@RegDwight well, yes there's that too

Kit

Do we unselect or de-select?

Matt Ellen

7:12 PM

if you pity someone you say "your life is not as good as mine, but it should be"

@Kit yes

Cerberus

@MattEllen There are various definitions of fascism. For me, "no pity" is closely connected with "power to the strong".

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus I can see that

Cerberus

Fascism is usually opposed to charity and egalitarianism.

Kit

@MattEllen That's not helpful. :P

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus I don't think if I didn't pity people it would stop me helping them if they asked.

@Kit I am a programmer, I answered the question as I read it ;)

Cerberus

7:16 PM

Of all the major ideologies of the past millennia, I believe fascism is the only one that goes straight against the core principles of all the major schools of ethics.

@MattEllen That sounds a bit odd... if you do not pity them, why help them at all?

Matt Ellen

@kit deselect

Grace Note

Pacerier really wants that polite/politer word

RegDwight

I know.

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus Because that's what they want - to be better than they are. If they do not believe they can improve then I should not pity them. If they ask for help I should not pity them because they are the same as me - trying to be better than they are.

Kit

@MattEllen Thanks.

Cerberus

7:20 PM

@MattEllen Uhm I'm not sure I can follow that. Are you paraphrasing fascism here?

aedia

@Kit "Clear the selection", "clear the check box" (Microsoft Manual of Style forbids deselect). If not adhering to anything Microsoft says, deselect. Possibly unselect, especially checkboxes.

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus I hope not!

Cerberus

@MattEllen Heh well I didn't quite get it in any case.

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus I think I'm saying you cannot help those who do not want to be helped, but you should help those who want it, if you can.

Kit

@aedia F*cking hell.

aedia

7:22 PM

@Kit Only sometimes needing to follow Microsoft conventions/style guides has given me a bit of a split personality as well.

Cerberus

@MattEllen Okay, well, "who want to be helped" would require defining, but that doesn't sound very fascist.

Kit

@aedia Well, see my first choice was unselect, but if that's what Microsoft wants, I should definitely use deselect.

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus jolly good :)

aedia

@Kit Oh, and (I'm looking at the book now) "clear" is more for check boxes and "Cancel the selection" is more for other things.

shakes head in confusion

Kit

Well, it's for a tooltip: Click to select or unselect this student.

Stupid tooltips.

Stupid teachers who need tooltips to know how checkboxes work.

Matt Ellen

7:25 PM

lol

aedia

It says:

> cancel the selection Not deselect or unmark. Use clear to refer to check boxes.

Cerberus

Hey don't be so hard on the tooltips! I just learned how to add them to buttons in this little program I made, and I am very happy with them...

RegDwight

@Kit But how do they know how tooltips work?

Kit

@aedia With the > it needs to be on its own.

@RegDwight I hadn't thought of that. keyboard, face, keyboard, face

aedia

@Kit Ah right totally in its own message. Finally got it.

Kit

7:28 PM

@aedia I did the same thing about an hour ago.

Brilliant plan: Let the group decide the wording of the tooltip!

Grace Note

Gonna jet! Later all ♪

RegDwight

CU!

Kit

That's sure to take up an hour of the next progress meeting.

aedia

@Kit Then you won't have any work for a long time while they come to consensus!

Kit

@GraceNote Bye!

Cerberus

7:29 PM

Bai!

Byes!

Cya @GraceNote

@aedia Exactly!

@Cerberus Have you heard of the Digger Movement? I like that. Except for the religious bits and some of the rules, but essentially it is egalitarian and communal. I like decentralised self governance and striving to better yourself. I'm not sure where the diggers stood on getting smarter, but I'm sure I could work it in.

I think they were the basis for the Quakers

Cerberus

@MattEllen Yeah I have heard of them, and they sound nice. I'm just not sure how well their system would work (cf. communism).

BRB

Matt Ellen

7:41 PM

@Cerberus I guess this is why I'm a bit of a Stoicist. It would be better if everyone had more self control and did do shit like steal and murder

Cerberus

Right, but a great many philosophies preach that, like Epicurism.

Jez

Hello all, welcome to the new me. My favourite snack is unicorn-on-toast.

(when the Gravatar gets refreshed)

Cerberus

Oh, dear...

That promises...well, something!

Wanda

Do you eat unicorns because you are a greatly diminished master of the dark arts trying to return to power?

Jez

i'm not sure what species I am really

t rex-cum-lizard

-cum-godzilla

Matt Ellen

7:51 PM

you're a cum lizard...

@Cerberus I think the difference is (correct me if I'm wrong) the Epicureans didn't do bad things in fear of being caught. Stoics didn't do bad things because it's just a bad idea - logically in the long run altruism brings greater reward.

Cerberus

Ehh... no that doesn't sound right.

Let me quote myself, if I can find me..

4

Q: What are the main points of criticism of the ancient Stoic school vis-a-vis the system of philosophy of the Epicureans?

What was the main criticism of the ancient Stoic school of philosophy with respect to the system of philosophy of the Epicureans?

ethics history-of-philosophy reference-request stoicism epicureanism

Jez

1

etymology

Proposed Q&A site for people interested in understanding the root of any word in any language.

Currently in definition.

Do we need an etymology site beyond all the language-specific proposals and linguistics?

Matt Ellen

no

close a dupe

Cerberus

See my comments there.

Matt Ellen

OK, so this is not what you are saying? (from wiki)
Epicurean:
> Lawbreaking was counseled against because of both the shame associated with detection and the punishment it might bring

Stoic:

> If someone is unkind, it is because they are unaware of their own universal reason, which leads to the conclusion of kindness. The solution to evil and unhappiness then, is the practice of Stoic philosophy—to examine one's own judgments and behavior and determine where they diverge from the universal reason of nature.

I summarise the epicurean as "fear of being caught" and the stoic as "it's better to work together" - because if you examine how well people survive over long period, which gets at the universal reason of nature, they do better working together.

@Cerberus I'm not disagreeing with your explanation, I'm seeing if how I understand wiki makes sense, and if it is out of line with your view

Cerberus

8:10 PM

You may be right that Epicurism puts more emphasis on utilitarian arguments; but Lucretius (an Epicurean) would no doubt have agreed with your "logically in the long run altruism brings greater reward", though he would have preferred co-operation to altruism. But in general this "fear of being caught" is not an important point to an Epicurist.

Matt Ellen

OK. Thanks. This has been really interesting for me :) Hope you've not been too bored.

Cerberus

On the contrary!

simchona

Ello again

Kit

Loves to everyone. Tschüß!

simchona

Pcr wants to know why his question isn't reopened...Someone with a lot of rep want to take this?

-12

Q: What may be a polite word to mean f****r?

NSFW alert! What's a polite/politer word to refer to a fucker? Since it is one of those words that have so many definitions, I'm actually referring to the first definition listed in http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fucker

vocabulary offensive-language

Matt Ellen

8:23 PM

cya @Kit!

simchona

@Kit I noticed you edited that question. Are you reopening it?

RegDwight

►

This song should be ELU's anthem.

Matt Ellen

Well Pcr, because now it's general ref. you can look it up in a thesaurus. DUH

aedia

Have a /swi:t/ weekend, @Kit!

Cerberus

@RegDwight Haha, nice.

Cerberus

9:02 PM

There is this person with a confusing name. I asked, "c'est votre surnom, non?". He/she answered: "x est mon vrai nom". Now what does that mean?

@Alain: You have arrived just in time!

Matt Ellen

I think it means "That's my real name"

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus, I was trying to catch up as much as I could of a few days of transcript. How is everything here?

Cerberus

Good!

@MattEllen Yeah, but what does/he she mean with that?

um.... yeah.

9:04 PM

I'm a French pineapple

Cerberus

At first his/her name seemed to be "male name female name".

Jez

I <3 Lewis Black

Cerberus

I wasn't sure which name was first name, which last. But "vrai"?

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus. Would that help: "surnom = nickname != surname = vrai nom".

simchona

Zing:

>
I never said it's not a valid question (nor did I personally vote to close it). As it happens I do think that - for the same reasons reasons as given by RegDwight (comments which I did upvote). If I were in a charitable mood I'd advise you not to attempt to bandy words and arguments with me, but I'm not. So here's another reason which RegDwight will not endorse. Both your questions strongly suggest you're the kind of fuckwit I'd rather not waste my time dealing with. I leave it to others to suggest a better term that still succinctly conveys the intended insult, whilst remaining polite. –…

Cerberus

9:07 PM

@AlainPannetier Oh! That must be it. I used "surnom" completely wrong.

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus, A common pitfall ;-)

Cerberus

But stupid... why on earth didn't I look that up.

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus, but then I should add "vrai nom" is not really family name. Otherwise, next time you'll end up saying "Is that your real name?" which can be considered offending and that would be my fault.

Cerberus

Heh, no, I got that.

But in this case it apparently means that it is a guy with a girl's name as his last name, because he called this girl's name "vrai nom"?

In fact I'm still not sure...

Without context, would you interpret "vrai nom" as last name?

Alain Pannetier

No, "vrai nom" is just as an antonym to alias or nickname which are not "official" names.

Cerberus

9:18 PM

Ah OK.

Then why did you suggest that "vrai nom" might be his last name? Just common sense (I'd guess he would mention his last name too, especially because it must be his last name that often confuses people, it pointing to the wrong sex)? Or some subtle connotation of the word?

Alain Pannetier

It implies the name is kind of weird. I had a friend when I was 13 and the whole French class moved to Sevenoaks Kent. His real name was Koch because he was Alsacian and that means Cook in German. Every morning we had "assembly" and all pupils would be called by their last name and had to answer "present". Now of course the teacher would not use the German pronunciation /kox/ but used /kok/ and each morning girls would blush and boys giggle.

That was is "vrai nom".

simchona

@REg: This guy is throwing shots again... english.stackexchange.com/questions/36051/…

RegDwight

Wow, FF seems to be really pissed off.

user19161

@RegDwight Who is FF?

simchona

Pcr's not "calming down"

RegDwight

9:23 PM

FumbleFingers.

simchona

and he continues to pick fights with users, like yourself and FF

RegDwight

> Both your questions strongly suggest you're the kind of fuckwit I'd rather not waste my time dealing with. I leave it to others to suggest a better term that still succinctly conveys the intended insult, whilst remaining polite.

That is kinda funny. Though of course I have to delete that. And probably the entire train wreck.

user19161

I'm amazed that so much chat has taken place in the past few hours. And why are there two more pitchforks? And pacerier is from my place? Oh man.

simchona

The pitchforks were from another SE site, who stopped in to see us. They think your comment about Lauren was funny @Jasper

RegDwight

@JasperLoy Wait what? He's your neighbour? Heureka! I have just invented a device to punch people via the Internet!!!

Cerberus

9:25 PM

@AlainPannetier Hehe, yes, I can imagine. If my last name were "Paola", that would be odd as well, making me tell people that it is my "vrai nom". But I would still rather say "last name": isn't there a word for that?

RegDwight

Gogo gadget Jasper!

user19161

@simchona I see they are not moderators. What is this CHAOS thing about in their profiles. I have not been keeping up with SE events.

Alain Pannetier

There is :"nom de famille" (family name).

simchona

@Jasper There should be a meta entry about this -- lemme find it for ya

Alain Pannetier

And very buttoned-up: "nom patronymique".

user19161

9:27 PM

@RegDwight Well, SG is so small that it does not appear on some maps. And I hope he doesn't know me in real life, otherwise he will be spying on me.

RegDwight

43

Q: What is the meaning of CHAOS? Is it related to the PSI (Ψ) character?

CHAOS is a team of six full-time employees that just started working at Stack Exchange Global World Domination Headquarters in New York, NY. They consist of: While at work, they look like this: As a convention, CHAOS members put a secret handshake, the Greek letter psi (Ψ),...

discussion announcements chaos

simchona

Dang, beat me to it

RegDwight

Check out the top answer, too.

user19161

@Jez Why the change in the avatar? And may I ask if you are he or she?

RegDwight

@simchona I am here to beat... wait what?

:PPPP

simchona

9:28 PM

Soooo...about Pcr.....

Cerberus

@AlainPannetier Ah OK. That doesn't sound like a very common word, or is it, "nom de famille"?

simchona

As a Japanese female, I also hate this question:

-5

Q: Since "Jap" is a racist/derogatory word, what's an appropriate short form for Japanese/the Japanese language?

Since Jap may turn out to be derogatory/offensive, what's an appropriate short form for Japanese/the Japanese language?

word-choice abbreviations politeness

Jez

i am he

and i like this avatar ;-) as i said. unicorn on toast.

simchona

You are he? or here? @Jez

user19161

@Jez I am a bit confused by unicorns now. As of now, I take unicorns to mean nothing.

z7sg

9:31 PM

@JasperLoy Offence taken.

Cerberus

I can't wait for Linguistics to take off. I just can't.

user19161

@z7sg Oh I mean not suggestive of anything, and not worthless! I'm sure you know.

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus It is quite common. When one says "nom" together with "prénom" (first name), one usually omits "de famille", but when one says "nom" and mean "sur name, then one usually adds "de famille" to avoid the ambiguity because "nom" also means "prénom".

user19161

@Cerberus Then don't wait.

Jez

'he'

simchona

9:32 PM

> Because EL&U aspires to answer questions that admit of a single "correct" answer, which assuredly yours does not. Also because we aspire to linguistic clarity, not obfuscation. Your question asks for an insulting term which will not be generally recognised as "impolite" - effectively, an imprecise and misleading alternative to an original which meant exactly what it was intended to (in context).

z7sg

@JasperLoy Ah OK. I didn't understand Jez's comment either.

Cerberus

@AlainPannetier Ah OK. Then it is about the same as in Dutch/English.

@JasperLoy But I must! What else can I do?

Jez

my avatar looks even cooler on a black background

go ahead, look at it

Matt Ellen

2 hours ago, by Jez

Hello all, welcome to the new me. My favourite snack is unicorn-on-toast.

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus indeed...

Cerberus

9:34 PM

I am SO glad I never once look at single-word requests. Woohoo!

user19161

@Cerberus Instead of waiting for it to take off, you may take off your clothes instead. :)

simchona

@Cerberus It's a big fight though...full of hair pulling and an abusive user

Cerberus

Ehh... perhaps some other time.

@simchona Yeah it is really not something I want to be involved with.

simchona

Hopefully it'll be over soon

z7sg

@MattEllen ?! @Jez, you and I might have to have a bit of a scrap. >:(

Jez

9:35 PM

hehe

Cerberus

I think one more bad question of this guy should get him a suspension.

user19161

@Jez It looks a bit evil to me.

simchona

I think the abuse he raineth down upon EL&U users should already get him a suspension

Matt Ellen

yeah. he's not really trying any more.

Cerberus

@Jez I still see your old picture, and I will keep it imprisoned here until eternity!

user19161

9:36 PM

@simchona You talking about pcr?

simchona

@Jasper Yup

user19161

@Cerberus You must refresh your browser.

user19161

I hope you see my chicken.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy I must not refresh it!

Matt Ellen

well he is trying but not in the effort sense.

Cerberus

9:37 PM

@MattEllen Thwack!

Jez

@Cerberus you can keep the old one but that's just a lame PPUK one

not nearly as awesome as this

Matt Ellen

What?? :D

Cerberus

@Jez Ah, is that hat it is!

@MattEllen Yeah look innocent, you.

Jez

RegDwight

@simchona You know, the current theory about that one is that he's asking what abbreviation to put, you know, like on athlete shirts. (Those don't say JAP, they say JPN, as you will know.) Which would make it a rather innocent question, actually (though I'm not sure how on-topic). Of course, he never actually clarified that. It's still a theory. (At least to my knowledge.)

Cerberus

9:38 PM

Men are allowed to thwack too in this room, aren't they?

Jez

@Cerberus sounds like an innuendo.

simchona

@Jez: You missed the boat on that one

Cerberus

@Jez Hehe I actually intended nothing of the sort.

simchona

@Reg: Then he should be Googling how to abbreviate Japan, not saying "Jap" all over the place

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus whistles ♫

Jez

9:39 PM

i'm a bit confused that people are thinking 'Jap' is offensive

it's basically short for Japanese here

or, Japanese person

RegDwight

@simchona Well, you know, his googling skillz... we kinda discussed that earlier...

Jez

like Kiwi is to New Zealand

simchona

@Jez: In America, it was used derogatively during wWII

That, "chink" for a Chinese person, etc. have deep connotations

Jez

well yeah, but it aint ww2 anymore

RegDwight

He'll probably enter "What is Jap" into the search field and expect it to magically guess an answer to his actual question.

Jez

9:40 PM

when you say 'Jap', most people won't even know what you mean if you add a mention of Pearl Harbor

simchona

@Jez: in America, it's far from that innocent

Jez

america is too uptight ;-)

NIGGARDLY

i said it

simchona

You may think it's just a "term", but in America the Japanese were discriminated against because of Pearl Harbor

RegDwight

Blame FDR.

simchona

@Jez I understand that you and I have different opinions, but I feel very offended personally by the term. It's not a matter of being uptight.

Cerberus

9:42 PM

@Jez I agree!

In Dutch, Jap is like English "Frog".

user19161

@Jez Ya we call them Japs here too.

simchona

Can we keep it out of here, though? I really do take it badly, since it has such connotations here

RegDwight

I think that's enough for simchona to handle for an entire week.

Jez

"a Japanese" doesn't really sound right to me. so basically you've either got "a Japanese person" or "a Jap", and I'm likely to shorten it to Jap for brevity.

RegDwight

Jinx.

simchona

9:43 PM

@Jez Please, leave it

I'm having to fight too much this week

user19161

I went out just now and saw a sign: TRESPASSERS WILL BE FINE.

user19161

Hahaha.

Matt Ellen

LOL

simchona

Haha

RegDwight

Let's just sing some nice songs, shantwe?

このドッキドキはなぜ止まらない

simchona

9:43 PM

KUMBAYAAAAAA

RegDwight

Or that.

simchona

^^

(It's a happy face, if you didn't know)

Jez

@RegDwight google translate says "Why not stop this Dokkidoki"

RegDwight

@Jez heart beat.

Onomatopoeic.

Heart pounding.

simchona

@RegDwight Who are you jinxing?

RegDwight

9:45 PM

@simchona You.

simchona

@Reg: Ohhh. Thank you

RegDwight

You said cut it out, I said, hey that's probably enough, at the same time.

Jez

@JasperLoy are you taking the piss?

Cerberus

►

simchona

I love that "fuckwit" is still in FF's comment

RegDwight

9:47 PM

Well, this entire thread is pending deletion.

simchona

Is pcr on notice?

RegDwight

Man, @waiwai is fast!

0

Q: A or AN before a ()

Possible Duplicate: “A/An” preceding a parenthetical statement What is the proper format for this sentence? Enclosed is a final copy of the functional spec, a payment schedule and a (unsigned) contract that I'd like to use for this project. OR Enclosed is a fina...

parentheses

simchona

Wow.

user19161

@Jez You know I had to look up the dictionary. No. I meant it literally. I was just wondering since I have not studied the transcript in detail. :)

user19161

@simchona or email, since that's in my profile. :)

simchona

9:49 PM

Jeez. Pcr edited. As if that'll help his question.

user19161

@simchona I can read his questions in more detail and try to figure out his background. He might be staying below me for all you know.

Jez

god. Tate is overrated.

I kind of want to disembowel her

simchona

@Jez Tate?

user19161

Ya which Tate?

Jez

catherine

Cerberus

9:51 PM

@Jez Hey, now.

RegDwight

Little Man Tate

Little Man Tate is a 1991 motion picture drama directed by and starring Jodie Foster. It tells the story of Fred Tate, a 7-year-old child prodigy who struggles to self-actualize in a social and psychological construct that largely fails to accommodate his intelligence. Foster plays Fred’s mother Dede, who attempts to give her son a "normal" childhood while simultaneously feeding his intellectual curiosity. Adam Hann-Byrd co-stars as her son, and the cast also includes Harry Connick, Jr. and Dianne Wiest. The film marked Foster’s directorial debut. Most of it was shot in Over-the-Rhine...

Cerberus

I didn't say she was the highest-quality comedy in existence (unlike Yes Minister), but she can be a lot of fun.

simchona

I've never seen her in anything

user19161

@Cerberus What was that? I'm sorry, I'm a bit slow right now.

Matt Ellen

@simchona you've seen her naked!

Cerberus

9:52 PM

@JasperLoy Oops, sorry, mislicked. I meant to answer Jez.

simchona