English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user19161

10:00 PM

@MattEllen The one under your user main site.

user19161

After you login, go to your profile and look under responses.

Matt Ellen

that is the one - i've just expanded it

oh

no, not that one

user19161

Two different boxes you see. I think we both understand now.

Matt Ellen

yeah, I get you

user19161

You know just asking, in case someone hot decided to ping me.

Matt Ellen

10:01 PM

:D

wouldn't want to miss out!

user19161

But I must say that pcr's f question was probably not a serious one.

Matt Ellen

not serious in what way?

you think he was joking when he asked it?

user19161

Maybe he just wanted it to attract attention, ya.

Matt Ellen

maybe

simchona

I think he's fighting too much about "rules". @Reg, you mentioned something about how this was our community...could you put that in the comments?

Cerberus

10:05 PM

@AlainPannetier They will still be paying interest ...

user19161

You know, I actually taught in some secondary schools here for a short while. Hmm, some of these people might have been my students.

user19161

And I know a few of them have written some bad things about me on their blogs!

user19161

@matt Did you drink any alcohol just now, it being a Fri night?

Matt Ellen

@JasperLoy I'm sober as a judge today

but normally I'll drink cider, or some spirit or other (whiskey, bourbon or vodka, generally)

user19161

Reg says he drinks vodka bucketwise.

trg787

10:14 PM

I don't like votka

user19161

@trg787 You shouldn't drink anymore now. Only water for you brother!

trg787

@Jas , I have in store smth :) forced to drink

user19161

@trg787 And I also hope things get better for you over there. :)

trg787

@Jas , thanks

Alain Pannetier

BTW @Cerberus, you remember this question about the plural of the indefinite article in English? I dug up an article by a linguist named John Hewson. He wrote an article back in 1972 in which he aired the theory that when a language has less than 4 cases in its noun declensions, it is likely to develop definite articles.

That is consistent with German, Latin and Greek.

Cerberus

10:21 PM

@AlainPannetier Ah, so you are not alone! But the problem is: when does an adjective/pronoun become an article? The boundary is vague.

@AlainPannetier Greek does not have less than 4.

Alain Pannetier

Yes that's actually 4 or less.

Bogdan Lataianu

According to Pacerier&Thursagen, I am not young because I am born before 1980 and only generation Y is using the internet english.stackexchange.com/questions/35878/…

Alain Pannetier

German has 4 as well.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Alain Pannetier

OE has 4 or 5 depending on whether you add instrumental or not.

trg787

10:22 PM

@Alain , I just thought to myself: in French ...... oh

Cerberus

Then again, does the locative count as a case?

It used to be a full case, and it is still semi-alive in Greek and Latin.

Alain Pannetier

I actually did not read that article. I read another article of hime in which he refers to his previous study.

Cerberus

OK.

Alain Pannetier

I did not count locative in Greek.

Cerberus

In fact, you could say the locative diappeared in classical Greek, merged with the dative.

Alain Pannetier

10:24 PM

Just as ablative as well.

Cerberus

?

The Latin locative has its own endings.

Oh, you mean the ablative in archaic Greek?

Alain Pannetier

I mean Greek ablative was later included in genitive

Yes

Ablative case

In linguistics, ablative case (abbreviated ) is a name given to cases in various languages whose common characteristic is that they mark motion away from something, though the details in each language may differ. The name "ablative" is derived from the Latin ablatus, the (irregular) perfect passive participle of auferre "to carry away". Indo-European languages Latin The Latin ablative case (ablativus) is mainly used adverbially to modify verbs. It has 15 uses, descending from three Proto-Indo-European cases: ablative (from), instrumental (with), and locative (in/at). The ablative is som...

Cerberus

Yeah OK.

There may be a connection.

Alain Pannetier

I should have access to Jstor soon, I believe. Will try to find this article + a few others.

Cerberus

But which function exactly do articles fulfil that used to be fulfilled by cases + adjectives/pronouns? That is the question.

Oh I could get it from Jstor.

Matt Ellen

10:33 PM

Well, you see, things used to have to be written on stone, which is heavy, so had to be carried around in cases. Nowadays things are written on paper, so you don't need the case you just need the article.

2

simchona

I love this chatroom.

Matt Ellen

Me too.

trg787

Guys, explain me : why Russian does not need the articles

Alain Pannetier

Still fuzzy in my mind, possible elements of his theory go like this:
1/ when cases disappear, the word order starts to become another way of avoiding ambiguity. We all agree it's true when cases have nearly completely disappeared as the transition from OE to ME clearly show.
2/ definitness is sometimes (as in Czech) conveyed by word order (syntactic order) as well.
3/ When cases disappear, then definitness cannot be conveyed by word order anymore.
That theory dos not work for Germanic languages which use the weak declensions of adjectives to convey definitness.

But then adjectives are not always there in NP.

simchona

Sorry, I never took Latin...what is a case?

Are those the word endings on verbs?

Alain Pannetier

10:40 PM

@simchona, you'll have to choose between Matt's witty explanation and the boring one.

simchona

Is there a short boring one?

Alain Pannetier

The one you said is OK.

simchona

Or a good article you'd recommend.

Oh, ok. Sorry it was kind of a simple question

Jez

@AlainPannetier It's probably "definiteness" you're after.

Alain Pannetier

simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_%28grammar%29

simchona

10:41 PM

I knew articles, just not cases

Alain Pannetier

@jez, yes, thanks a lot.

Too late to correct though.

@simchona, can you access that article?

simchona

@Alain: Yes, thank you.

Alain Pannetier

because I screwed up ;-)
I meant this article....

simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_%28grammar%29

simchona

The first one was helpful too. Good for a brushup on the French I used to know

Alain Pannetier

Well it says it's simple English but I do not find this very simple.

simchona

10:45 PM

I shudder to think what the other article looks like

Jez

i got a first the other day: French spam!

and i actually read it all to practice my french :-P

simchona

I have Harry Potter in French in my room somewhere. As well as Madame Bovary

Jez

some African nun who wanted to give me money so I could spend it on holy things

Alain Pannetier

Bascally your initial guess was perfect. When a noun is a subject it has one ending, when it is object (basically on the receiving end) it has another and when it is possessor of another noun yet another etc, etc You can invent as many circumstances as you want and as many endings as circumstances.
Locative is when you are _at_ noun
Instrumental is when you use noun or _with_ noun
Genitive is when noun owns or is related
Dative is when you give to noun
Vocative is when you invoke noun

trg787

"Madame Bovary" is THE BEST novel ever written

Kit

10:51 PM

@simchona Nope. Just prettying it up.

@simchona Ha ha ha. I have Madame Bovary in French somewhere as well.

Cerberus

To be precise: most cases have several functions each, just as our prepositions.

Hey I have just borrwed M.B. (French) from the library two weeks ago, it is lying here on my desk!

Matt Ellen

you're all from some kind of cult

a Madame Bovary cult

Cerberus

The Latin dative, for example, can indicate indirect object, agent, possessor...

Jez

the GIMP 2.7.2 is really good, once you get used to it.

aedia

yawns so hot in train with failing air conditioning. sleepy.

Jez

10:54 PM

seriously, i think once they release 2.8 final (with the single window mode), it will be an acceptable replacement for Photoshop

Cerberus

The Greek dative indirect object, measure, instrument...

Matt Ellen

@Jez New GIMP! I must remember to try it tomorrow

Jez

which is great for ppl like me who dont wanna spend loads of Photoshop

Cerberus

No, not failing airconditioning! That sucks.

Matt Ellen

stil on 2.6

Jez

10:54 PM

@MattEllen yeah, the best you'll get at the moment is a dodgy devel build. their release schedule is glacial

end of 2011 for 2.8 probably

aedia

@Matt if any consolation, I have not made it into the cult either

Matt Ellen

oh :(

Jez

but single window mode makes it more than usable for me at last

2.7.2 (or maybe 2.7.3 now) is pretty good though

Matt Ellen

@aedia thanks. I feel less like an outsider now :)

Jez

it has single window mode, loads of brushes, layers, layer groups, filters, transparency, export to tons of formats, color tweaking...

not sure what extras Photoshop would have really. probably nothing important

Kit

10:57 PM

Yay! Kipper is on next!

Matt Ellen

@Kit the cartoon about a dog?

Kit

@MattEllen Yes.

Jez

at least I'm finally home. no manure smell.

Matt Ellen

I think I used to watch too much day time TV

Kit

@Jez Like we're supposed to believe that.

Matt Ellen

10:58 PM

:D

Jez

@Kit you believe what you want to think

RegDwight

@Jez It's not sticking to your clothes and hair?

Kit

"They call him Kipper, Kipper the Dog..."

aedia

I miss the show where the dog reenacted the classics.

Kit

And the British accents are so soothing.

RegDwight

10:59 PM

If it's not sticking to your clothes and hair, then it's no real manure smell. Just pseudo manure smell.

Jez

Kipper should be a fish.

simchona

@aedia: I loved Wishbone!

Kit

Isn't "kipping" taking a nap?

aedia

That's it!

simchona

There were WishBone books, too

Cerberus

10:59 PM

@aedia You are in that very show!

Kit

Right, Wishbone! For everyone under 30, that is.

simchona

Yup. I've got 10 years to go on that

aedia

I didn't want to say Wishbone, because I was thinking, who would name a dog Wishbone?

Matt Ellen

I don't know if wishbone made it to my TV

Cerberus

Give my anything classical, be it Latin or Greek...

aedia

11:00 PM

But that's definitely it.

simchona

What did this guy do to get a 2.5 year suspension?

vgv8, Novosibirsk, Russia

1 3 17

aedia

@Cerberus I am?

Jez

what did H&B do to get removed?

looks like all his stuff is now community wiki

trg787

Frankly, I don't like reading, along with movies. I read some Russian authours, then I like Goethe, Hugo, Twain. I don't like literature from catholic countries

aedia

My memory is hazy with nostalgia.

Kit

11:02 PM

1

Q: Use of the term Hans in an American name in the 1700's

I'm doing some research on family history. I am trying to track some people that came to the U.S from Germany in 1737 on the ship "Charming Nancy". Here's the link: http://www.progenealogists.com/palproject/pa/1737cnan.htm Close to the bottom of the list are the names: Thomas Spiri Sara An...

meaning word-usage history

RegDwight

@simchona Look at his questions. Then the revision histories. Then the meta threads. And keep in mind that that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Cerberus

I am the classical dog? NM.

RegDwight

The real crappy stuff got deleted.

Get to 10k for extra entertainment value.

Cerberus

Yeah vgv8 was pretty bad.

simchona

@Jez: He is now known as "Thursagen"

Cerberus

11:03 PM

@Jez Wait, H&B? Has his account with the new name been CW'd?

simchona

@Cerb not that I can tell

trg787

When I was a little boy I was crazy abt Dickens. Now it's impossible to read

Cerberus

@simchona OK I didn't think so.

simchona

For historical purposes:

I give you Wishbone, as Robin Hood

Cerberus

@simchona Oh my God how did you find my Facebook!?

aedia

11:08 PM

swoon

trg787

I don't want to read at all. At the spring I opened "Psychopate" by Robert Bloch........ Read 2-5 pages and closed it for good. I'm tired of this.

simchona

@trg: Read something lighter, then.

aedia

Finally almost home. Must run. Friends visiting! Ciao!

RegDwight

CU!

Matt Ellen

cya!

simchona

11:12 PM

@Cerberus: Is this after you cut off Left and Right?

Bogdan Lataianu

@Kit I think that question is dumb.

simchona

@Bogdan Which?

Bogdan Lataianu

the one Kit posted-see above. Though it is unlear why Kit postedit

RegDwight

@simchona They are detachable.

user19161

@Cerberus Actually I found yours, but that's our secret!

simchona

11:14 PM

@Reg Is it Velcro?

RegDwight

Or untouchable. I always confuse the prefixes.

user19161

5

Q: Why is user vgv8 being suspended again, and for so long?

Why is vgv8 suspended till 03 Dec 2013, after just being suspended recently?

discussion

trg787

The Obstacle

Pronin said: -- You have very beautiful stockings.
Irina Mazer said: -- Do you like my stockings?
Pronin said: -- Oh yes. Very much. -- And he made a grab at them with
his hand.
Irina said: -- But why do you like my stockings?
Pronin said: -- They are very smooth.
Irina lifted her skirt and said: -- And do you see how high they go?
Pronin said: -- Oh yes, I do.
Irina said: -- But here they come to an end. Up here it's bare leg.
-- Oh, and what leg! -- said Pronin.
-- I've got very thick legs -- said Irina. -- And I'm very wide in the

RegDwight

Is that Kharms?

simchona

I wish I could collapse long blocks of chat text

user19161

11:16 PM

@aedia I thought it was easier to fall asleep with aircon.

simchona

@Jasper Thanks

trg787

@Reg !!!!! Of course!!!!!!

RegDwight

Kharms is hilarious. I have no idea why this particular piece isn't. Must be the delivery.

But seriously guys, go grab a book of his.

You will die laughing.

Daniil Kharms

Daniil Kharms (; – 2 February 1942) was an early Soviet-era surrealist and absurdist poet, writer and dramatist. One of his pseudonyms, which was signed in Latin alphabet, was Daniel Charms. Life Daniil Ivanovich Yuvachev (Даниил Иванович Ювачёв) was born in St. Petersburg, into the family of Ivan Yuvachev, a well known member of the revolutionary group The People's Will. By this time the elder Yuvachev had already been imprisoned for his involvement in subversive acts against the tsar Alexander III and had become a religious philosopher, acquaintance of Anton Chekhov during the latter...

trg787

@Reg , I think in translation nuances will be lost.

RegDwight

I have a truly awesome German translation. Not sure about English.

Can't recommend for or against anything in particular.

user19161

11:19 PM

@Jez GIMP is not in the default Ubuntu install. Maybe they thought it was too hard to use.

Jez

ha! Ubuntu.

i gave up on that years ago

Debian now

Matt Ellen

good sleep to all you nights I'm off to people

RegDwight

Good night Matt.

I will be off in a minute, too.

user19161

@trg787 I think you can read a lot of his works free online and legally now. I like Great Expectations but I only skimmed through it.

user19161

@MattEllen Guten Nacht!

RegDwight

11:21 PM

@Jez Exactly the other way round at my working place.

It comes and goes.

Linux de jour.

We used SuSE, then Debian, now Ubuntu.

simchona

Oh, this is almost priceless

-2

Q: What are synonyms to the "analyst" without "anal" inclusions?

Do the words anal and analyst (analysis, analytical) have common root and/or origin? And why? Should I avoid their usage? What are the possible substitutions/synonyms for the word analyst that don't include the word anal? Update: I am sorry, but I am analyst and should know the possible con...

meaning vocabulary expressions writing-style

user19161

I can't decide between Ubuntu and Debian yet, so now on Fedora temporarily.

RegDwight

@simchona And remember: you are looking at the stuff that is not deleted.

Jez

well, I always remember this. Ubuntu is an ancient African word, meaning "I can't configure Debian."

2

user19161

Is there some reason why the Russians like numbers in their names: z7sg, vgv8, trg787?

trg787

11:23 PM

On Phenomena and Existences. No. 1

The artist Michelangelo sits down on a heap of bricks and, propping his
head in his hands, begins to think. Suddenly a cockerel walks past and looks
at the artist Michelangelo with his round, golden eyes. Looks, but doesn't
blink. At this point, the artist Michelangelo raises his head and sees the
cockerel. The cockerel does not lower his gaze, doesn't blink and doesn't
move his tail. The artist Michelangelo looks down and is aware of something
in his eye. The artist Michelangelo rubs his eyes with his hands. And the

simchona

@Reg "anal inclusions" sounds...way more interesting than his original question

RegDwight

@simchona Hey, I almost got him to run for mod.

Almost.

user19161

@Jez Debian Squeeze is not too hard to install for an idiot like me, but they really shouldn't have removed the nonfree firmware from the main image.

RegDwight

6

A: I propose to elect by 3 quotas, each per one-thirds-contiguously of time-zones

No, we don't support this. We look for great moderators wherever in the world they come from; enforcing time zone restrictions would be too limiting. Most elections in practice produce at least US and europe, which is adequate coverage.

simchona

@Reg Glad you stopped it in time

RegDwight

11:25 PM

Read the comments there @simchona.

user19161

And until now, they still don't have live CD, only live DVD for Debian.

simchona

> most candidates, except one from UK, are from the USA what is somehow predetermines the situation that I shall be unmoderated for long periods of time since I am at GMT+6.

> I am afraid that my posts would not be closed and deleted promptly enough.

RegDwight

@simchona The real funny thing about that is him saying "I am already living in the same time-slot with New Zealand". He lives in Novosibirsk, which is 6 time zones away.

simchona

Wow. Does this mean I can sign up for a timeslot with France? Would make things a lot easier

RegDwight

Sure. In 6-8 weeks you can.

Jez

11:28 PM

all in the USA? hmm. so I can post dodgy stuff in the morning and have it be public on the site for hours before it gets removed

RegDwight

117

A: The Many Memes of Meta

Meme: 6 to 8 Weeks Originator: Jeff Atwood First Heard: May 13th, 2008 Cultural Height: In about 6 to 8 weeks Definition: The time estimate given "off the top of my head" when the Stack Overflow team has only a vague idea of how long a task will take because they have little-to-no formal sche...

user19161

@RegDwight You mean the mod elections are then?

Jez

muahaha

RegDwight

@Jez Look at my profile again. Or my nomination.

RegDwight ♦, Europe, GMT+1

28.7k 5 73 128

etymology word-choice meaning single-word-requests grammar phrases grammatical-number

english.stackexchange.com/election/1#post-12718

Europe, honey.

Speaking of which, it's 1:30 a.m. here.

So good night all.

user19161

@RegDwight Sleep well owl.

simchona

11:31 PM

Good night Owl

RegDwight

thx all over n out

user19161

@bogdan Are you Romanian?

Bogdan Lataianu

yup

user19161

I know your names end in u, like Ionescu.

Bogdan Lataianu

many of them yes but many end in "anu" too

trg787

11:34 PM

I admire Romanian folk music

user19161

And a lot of werewolf movies are filmed there it seems, so in the closing you always see these names.

trg787

I hate Russian balalaikies

simchona

@Trg: We know you dislike Russia. Let's not bash it.

user19161

What's that?

simchona

@Jasper: An instrument:

Balalaika

The balalaika (, ) is a stringed musical instrument of Russian origin, with a characteristic triangular body and three strings. The balalaika family of instruments includes, from the highest-pitched to the lowest, the prima balalaika, secunda balalaika, alto balalaika, bass balalaika and contrabass balalaika. All have three-sided bodies, spruce or fir tops, backs made of 3-9 wooden sections, and usually three strings. The prima balalaika is played with the fingers, the sekunda and alto either with the fingers or a plectrum, depending on the music being played, and the basses and contraba...

user19161

11:38 PM

All those instruments you need to blow into generate a lot of saliva. See the musicians flinging their instruments and the saliva flying into the air.

trg787

@simchona , how can I dislike Russia if I'm a part of it? I live in Belarus, but everybody here speaks only Russian

Bogdan Lataianu

Ha I didnt think about that Jasper, trg: i like some of Russian music-you can find on youtube, but some i dont like-too much serious

simchona

@trg: You dislike Russians, then. You've said as much before

user19161

@jez Since I just watched Captain America, you know what your red thing reminds me of?

simchona

@Trg: I would advise you not to air those opinions here. You never know who is in here.

user19161

11:43 PM

@jez en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Skull

trg787

@sim , why? It's just IMO

user19161

OK people let's not get into a quarrel again!

simchona

@Trg: We had this discussion yesterday. You are entitled to your opinion, but this community is a private sphere

@Trg: We need to keep it accepting and openly positive for everyone

user19161

It seems that some people are perpetually in this room. I wonder if it is because they never turn off their computers.

Bogdan Lataianu

folk music is supposed to be lively, not make you cry

simchona

11:49 PM

@Jasper And keep the tab open

user19161

Don't really appreciate folk music though.

user19161

@simchona I see, but always leaving it on is a waste of electricity, but maybe it's a server or sth.

simchona

@Jasper They could be still online, just not saying anything. It grays you out after inactivity

user19161

@sim So your religion is called Judaism?

simchona

@Jasper Yup

Bogdan Lataianu

11:55 PM

Are you religious?

user19161

@BogdanLataianu Nope, but 'spiritual'.

user19161

That's just me.

simchona

I'm not super religious either

user19161

But I did try reading a bit of bible, koran, suttas, etc...

simchona

@Jasper That's cool--sounds like you're at least open to different people's views

user19161

11:58 PM

In my quest for the truth, I have switched my own views from this to that many times. I am still searching...

simchona

I admire that

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…