English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Kit

15:00

@Robusto Don't tell me you're not a monster truck fan?

RegDwight

@MrDisappointment Gah! "'Till"! Gah! :P

Kit

@Robusto Or are you referring to my sexual orientation?

Robusto

I'm a monster fan and I'm a truck fan. But not a fan of monster trucks.

RegDwight

Which part are you then?

Mr. Disappointment

Firstly...

32 mins ago, by Kosmonaut

This morning, Jeff says that if there is a hint that the person is not 100% confident of their English skills, then the question is very likely to be off-topic.

That's a foolish statement, IMO.

Robusto

15:02

Hey, I'm 110% confident in my English skills and I have like, what, 15 questions asked on this board already?

Mr. Disappointment

@RegDwight I tried to make it digestible for you, see the '. ;)

aedia

Guys, there's a simple answer! We must no longer use language to mean things, so we won't have to worry whether interpreting the meaning is on-topic.

Mr. Disappointment

I'm English and I'm not 100% confident of anything (or, much, but not language.)

Kit

@aedia That's a great solution!

RegDwight

@MrDisappointment That's what I was commenting on, the apostrophe. It doesn't belong there.

Mr. Disappointment

15:03

Oh, I don't like using till, personally.

RegDwight

"'Till" -> " 'Till " if that is easier to read.

Kit

@RegDwight What? Shouldn't it be 'til?

RegDwight

12

Q: What is the difference between "till" and "until"?

What is the difference between till and until? When to use till or until? Please explain with examples.

Kosmonaut

@MrDisappointment I can tell you that, when a linguist does field work, people that are "100% confident" about the language are not good informants.

Kit

Otherwise it means something completely different.

Mr. Disappointment

15:04

@Kit Probably, ya, my gawwd, what is this, an EL&U site or something?!

Martha

It's either 'til (one L) or till (no apostrophe).

JSBangs

@Kit logic would agree with you, but not actual usage

in fact, the shortening of until to till is extremely common

Kosmonaut

Ability to use a language and ability to analyze that language are two totally different things.

2

Mr. Disappointment

Y'all can pick on 'gawwd' now, if you like.

RegDwight

It's not a shortening.

Till is the older form.

JSBangs

15:05

@RegDwight whatever, then

RegDwight

Until came later.

JSBangs

really?!

RegDwight

Read that question or something. :P

Kit

Brain hurts. Must kill things.

Mr. Disappointment

It was a bit of freakin' slang, it wasn't meant to be 'proper'! Dagnammit!

RegDwight

15:06

@MrDisappointment Well, I do apologize for bringing you off-track. Do go on with your actual critique.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — We don't rat each other out, if that's what you mean.

Mr. Disappointment

I'm not through reading yet, and you're all still talking!

JSBangs

@RegDwight wow, great answers. upvotes for everyone

Kosmonaut

@Robusto Informants are native speakers who give you language data.

psmears

Hi all - I've just caught up reading through the last hour or so of discussion of Jokergate, and had to restrain myself from starring about a hundred posts...

Mr. Disappointment

15:07

@Kosmonaut Re the confidence, I think that applies in many fields, too.

aedia

@RegDwight I Can't Believe It's Not "Until"?

JSBangs

0

Q: Which is the correct construct?

Which one of the following is correct/better? As usual, I am more interested in the really good construct than just a comparison. The power of a programming language lies in abilities of the programmer using it in how effectively he is able to break down the program and glue the solutions tog...

word-choice prepositions

^ i think this is proofreading

RegDwight

@psmears You can only star 30 posts per day anyway.

But thanks for the catching up.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — See? There's a code, you know. All I'm sayin' is there's a freakin' code that must be followed. And part of that code is you never talk to linguistics narcs about language data.

psmears

I totally understand how the mods feel about this - hey, I'm annoyed myself, and I just answer a question here and there!

@RegDwight That doesn't stop me giving myself RSI from trying to click ;-)

And I think the stuff about NNSs is well out of order

Kit

15:09

@psmears Oh, how I despise the -gate suffix to indicate scandal...

RegDwight

@Kit Nice edit.

psmears

It does make me wonder whether Jeff has ever tried to obtain near-native competency in any other language... it's kinda hard...

Kit

@RegDwight Just avoiding your wrath, sir.

RegDwight

THIS SITE IS FOR EXPERTS IF U MISTYPE SUFFIX AS PREFIX UR NO XPERT!

Kit

@psmears Isn't he a coder?

psmears

15:10

@Kit It's meant to be ironic dammit!

Robusto

@RegDwight — You spelled too many words correctly. Instant disqualification.

JSBangs

@Kit learning a computer language is completely different from learning a natural language

psmears

@Kit Yes - but I'm not sure how that's related?

@JSBangs This

Martha

@MrDisappointment If it's any consolation, your first "hold on, lemme catch up" post garnered 4 stars in like 2 seconds flat.

Kit

@psmears Yup. I know. I think irony is overused. Ironically.

RegDwight

15:11

@Robusto Yeah I was halfway through with it already and couldn't be donkeyed to go back and edit.

Robusto

@Kit — That response is soooo useful.

psmears

A computer language can be completely described in a book I can comfortably read on a train journey. Natural languages, not so much...

Kit

@psmears Coder = IT guy = jacka$$. Am I wrong?

Martha

@Robusto That's sarcasm, not irony.

RegDwight

That's litotes.

Robusto

15:12

@RegDwight — Is it really so hard to type XPERTS? You already had XPERT at the end ...

JSBangs

@RegDwight hey, it's my favorite literary device!

Robusto

@Martha — I'm a pedant. Want to hear about the difference?

psmears

@Kit Well, speaking as a coder/IT guy myself, I couldn't possibly comment...

Mr. Disappointment

Soooo, seems we have a bit of a conundrum...

Kosmonaut

I seriously can't believe this line: "I scored 99th percentile on the English GMAT back in the day, so I for one am pretty confident in my English language skills."

RegDwight

15:13

@JSBangs You mean it's your least not favourite one?

Robusto

@Martha — Also, it is irony. And sarcasm. At the same time. Yep, it's a pretty difficult trick to pull off, but I just did it.

Mr. Disappointment

@Martha Ya, actually quite impressive, I think those are my first chat stars ever!

Kit

@psmears Sure you can. I think you'd have an expert opinion.

Kosmonaut

I consistently score near-perfect on my checkups at the doctor. Does that mean I am an expert at biomedical engineering?

Martha

@Robusto "I'm not anal, I'm pedantic. There's a difference. Let me explain it to you."

RegDwight

15:13

@Kosmonaut Just ignore it.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — That depends. How long do you have to study for blood and urine tests?

Kit

@Robusto Sarcasm is verbal irony, right?

RegDwight

I haven't scored anything on any test ever, and yet I am on the same Internet as Jeff.

Kit

Let's ask MrHen.

psmears

@Martha Was that meant to be @me?

JSBangs

15:14

@Kosmonaut that line might be taken as something than an asshole would say. you know, hypothetically

Robusto

@Kit — I'm too chicken.

Martha

@psmears Whoops, no.

Robusto

@RegDwight — You are clearly not on the same Internetz as Jeff.

Kit

@RegDwight I've had sexual relations with the leaders of six different countries, so I think that qualifies me as an expert at geopolitical affairs.

psmears

@Kit Well, my personal view is that not all IT people are assholes... but then I would say that!

Robusto

15:15

@Kit — Actually, I think that's an official qualification. Look at that guy from the IMF.

Martha

@Kit Wait, you mean it doesn't?

JSBangs

@Kit you keep talking like that and i'm going to come to the conclusion that you're actually a 15-year-old virgin

RegDwight

@Kit Missouri is not a country.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Neither is Holland, or whatever made-up place you call home.

RegDwight

@Robusto Sure. You make it sound as if you wanted to contradict me, in which case you fail.

Oh, I just had an idea.

Kit

15:19

@RegDwight ROFLMAO.

RegDwight

Perhaps Jeff is unhappy with the way we treat his beloved "too basic" close reason.

JSBangs

@RegDwight does he want us to use it more? b/c we certainly use it some

RegDwight

I mean, it only got introduced on two sites, of which we are one, and we don't use it like at all.

@JSBangs I am merely speculating.

Kit

@psmears Not all. Just some. Also that IT folks don't have particularly good senses of humor and always assume that they are right and everyone else is stupid.

JSBangs

is it possible to search for closed questions by their close reason?

RegDwight

15:21

With Google, yes.

Kit

@psmears You know I'm a coder too, right?

psmears

@Kit You've led a happy life if you've only encountered that type in IT :)

RegDwight

google.com/…

psmears

@Kit No, I didn't realise that

Kit

@psmears Just so you know that I'm not picking on you.

RegDwight

15:22

I suppose a SEDE query could work, too.

I would have to look up if that data is stored in the dump.

psmears

@Kit Sure, I didn't think you were - but thanks for the confirmation :)

I suspect that, as a few other people have said, Jeff's concern is the effect that's sometimes seen on other SO sites, where people ask jokey questions that then go on to be highly upvoted (because anyone can understand them, and everyone likes a joke, don't they?)

Then fairly rapidly there's a spree of them and they get quite annoying and distract from the main purpose of the site

RegDwight

@psmears As I was saying, the Chuck Norris question is ages old.

There was no spree.

psmears

... so there's a definite need to kill such jokes with fire and/or from orbit, as appropriate

RegDwight

This site is not full of joke questions.

psmears

@RegDwight Agreed - I'm getting there...

Kosmonaut

15:24

@psmears And as I thoughtfully attempted to tell him, none of his example questions were attempts to be funny. They just happened to be about humor.

JSBangs

our joke questions are, indeed, quite rare

RegDwight

And I say that as someone who likes to go berserk on broken windows.

psmears

...my point is that we have a different way of dealing with that potential issue

Kosmonaut

Or even more specifically, about things that happened to also be funny.

Rhodri

@JSBangs I was going to say, I'm struggling to think of any.

psmears

15:25

which (to me) seems pretty effective

namely that we explain the joke, which instantly kills it 100 times dead...

Kosmonaut

I think we have always made sure not to allow joke questions and joke answers.

psmears

I suspect this is part of the reason why we haven't been overrun with such questions, or even seen the start of an invasion

JSBangs

@psmears right, and the user is almost always asking for an explanation, so it both answers the question and reduces the desire to just go on making funnies

psmears

(That and the vigilant moderation, of course :) )

Kosmonaut

Who was that one guy who used to post lots of questions a while back, and they were all attempts at clever wordplay, where clearly the whole point of the question was the clever wordplay?

Robusto

15:26

@Kosmonaut — Tru dat.

Kosmonaut

We put the hammer down on those questions.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut ArthurRex.

JSBangs

as i suggested above, i think Jeff was within his rights to close some borderline questions. what bothers me more, way more, is the public insinuation that the mods on this site are doing a bad job, without any explanation of what, exactly, he thinks the problem is

RegDwight

And now wait for it...

ArthurRex was an SO employee.

JSBangs

@RegDwight WTF SRSLY?

Kit

15:28

@RegDwight Dun dun DUN!

RegDwight

Of course.

Kosmonaut

WHAT?

RegDwight

Don't tell me you didn't know that.

Kosmonaut

Are you joking?

psmears

@RegDwight Now known as

RegDwight

15:28

I am not.

Search the Teachers' Lounge.

psmears

JustnBeaver

102 1 13

etymology meaning phrases idioms single-word-requests slang word-choice

RegDwight

He actually said so in his profile on SO.

And Rebecca confirmed it.

Kit

@psmears I recognize that name.

RegDwight

Though she never confirmed whether or not he was still there.

Kosmonaut

Wow

This place is messed up.

RegDwight

15:29

Haha.

Rhodri

Ditto and likewise

RegDwight

@psmears and formerly known as AttilaNYC.

Rhodri

TRex? SRSLY?

RegDwight

It all started on Cooking.

psmears

@RegDwight He'd changed his name previously? That one I didn't spot :)

Rhodri

15:33

0

Q: How to politely ask for a Payment for the Research Done(Freelancing)

Let us say that I am talking with a client about a potential project and that I have done some research on the project as well. Let us say that the project will require considerable research in the future as well. Since we haven't agreed on the project, I'm not sure if I will get paid. How do I p...

politeness

RegDwight

Mar 3 at 18:50, by RegDwight

13

Q: Is it acceptable to glean questions from other cooking sites?

I've noticed that AtillaNYC has been copying questions from other cooking sites verbatim. Is this acceptable and/or encouraged? Edit by Dinah: My original question is above except that I did not include any names. Below is an edit by hobodave as is the user link above. I'm not removing his ed...

discussion etiquette

Kit

Should I use "User Manual" or "User Guide" to describe the pulp that I will provide for the headless drones that will be using my software?

RegDwight

Seriously, is this some kind of test? We are having quality problems if this stuff continues.

Politeness questions are the next possible target, BTW.

Kosmonaut

I give up.

RegDwight

Remember how the Joke affair started by Jeff commenting on my answer on meta in which I simply listed a few related questions.

Well, I have the same about politeness, too.

Rhodri

15:35

@RegDwight Good grief. The single least-obvious part of English to native speakers is off-topic?

RegDwight

2

A: Is asking a question about the politeness of a phrase on-topic?

Well, we do have these (and many more, just search the site for "polite" or "rude"): Is “Can I have a cup of coffee?” polite? “Excuse Me”… Is it polite or just a terse way to ask others to step aside? Is “thanks” appropriate to be polite in this situation? Is “can” or “could” more polite? Is it...

@Rhodri I dunno.

I'm just speculating here.

aedia

@Kit I like Guide more, and I think it's a bit more popular. But right now I use Manual since the other manuals written before my time are all manuals.

RegDwight

Because of this recent question about politeness (which is now closed), another (open) question about politeness on our front page right now, and the similarities between those to answers of mine on meta.

JSBangs

@Rhodri i voted the question in this case as off-topic because it's essentially a proofreading request.

Mr. Disappointment

I think that the problem is that there wasn't a problem, but now that problem of nothing has turned into a problem of something. But what is the problem?

JSBangs

15:37

actually, it's worse than a proofreading request.

Kit

@aedia Does manual imply that they will be physically handling it?

Mr. Disappointment

And what can we do about it?

Rhodri

@JSBangs I thought it more a "Write this for me request," which is even worse in my book. OT either way.

aedia

@Kit I think it feels more like it, but consider man pages...

JSBangs

@Rhodri indeed.

questions about politeness are on topic so long as they can be expressed as a single, limited question

RegDwight

15:39

Damn, it's that late already. I gotta run.

Kosmonaut

If we EL&U mods had done something to show that we were combative or would blatantly ignore suggestions from supermods, that would be one thing, but there is no reason whatsoever to take an adversarial attitude towards the mods here. I have no interest in fighting with supermods.

RegDwight

TTYL.

Kit

@aedia What's that?

@RegDwight Bye Reg! We love you!

aedia

Ditto!

Mr. Disappointment

@Kosmonaut The main point is that there should be absolutely no need for conflict.

Kit

15:40

@Kosmonaut We love you too.

We're all adults here.

RegDwight

One more thing though @JSBangs: the close reason is stored in the dump, but I wasn't able to find out the number that belongs to "general reference".

data.stackexchange.com/english/q/17952/…

Over and out!

Kit

So let's get naked and party!

aedia

@Kit Wait, srsly? I thought you were a real coder :P en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_page

Jez

I needed more @Kit s at my university.

Kosmonaut

@MrDisappointment Exactly. Why shouldn't we work together? If it is worth his time to micromanage questions, and post insulting comments, then it should have been worth his time to discuss with the mods on what he thinks should be done differently.

Kit

15:42

@aedia Oh my everloving Frigg. How have I been a programmer for twenty years and not known this? I'm so embarrassed.

psmears

@Kosmonaut And this would avoid upsetting said mods, and indeed the entire community who (a) elected those mods, and (b) were broadly in agreement with the policies in place...

Kit

@psmears And this brings us back to "Isn't he an IT guy?"

Kosmonaut

So, I've clearly been wasting my time.

psmears

@Kit :-) I need to start acting differently at work. Clearly I'm not living up to my stereotype!

aedia

@Kit Tee hee. If you had spent your time reading man pages, you wouldn't have had time for all that entymology.

Kit

15:45

@psmears Yes, yes. You should be a meat-head with thick fingers who talks down to everyone.

@aedia You're right. At least I can tell lepidoptera from hymenoptera and hemiptera.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — Hey, take a deep breath. Don't act in haste, please. We value your presence here too much. I'm being serious now.

Kosmonaut

It's just so humiliating.

Mr. Disappointment

Well, I have to run and do some work for the last ten minutes...

aedia

@Kit And I bet you know where the words come from.

Mr. Disappointment

Hang in there you guys, and TTYS.

Robusto

15:47

I feel you. But life is a shit sandwich sometimes.

psmears

Regarding the joke question side of things - I'm trying to come up with a new "policy" (in an answer on Meta) that I hope can allay Jeff's (potentially misplaced) concerns, without effectively forbidding all genuine questions that touch on jokes (as the FAQ does as it stands)

JSBangs

@Kosmonaut i feel like i should buy you a drink

2

Jez

what's a good food to go with spaghetti bolognase? some kind of crusty bread?

psmears

@Robusto Word

Kosmonaut

@Robusto Yeah, but if a certain restaurant serves shit sandwiches, you don't have to keep ordering it!

psmears

15:48

(The upsetting-the-mods-and-community-for-no-good-reason side of things is somewhat less easy to address)

Kit

@JSBangs Second round is on me.

@drm65 You've been on quite the edit spree this morning.

aedia

When I woke up this morning I think I claimed I wasn't drinking ever again but I'll make an exception for you, @Kosmonaut. IPA?

JSBangs

@psmears do you have a link to your suggestion?

Kit

@Jez Yes, crusty bread. Spinach salad with dried cranberries, feta, and balsamic vinagrette.

JSBangs

@aedia woah, woah. why would you ever claim something hasty like that?

Kit

15:50

@Jez And a bold, dry red.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — But if you like the people who hang out there, maybe just order spaghetti?

I know, I know. Bad joke.

Just trying to find some way to say hang in there.

Jez

what kind of crusty bread

Kosmonaut

@aedia IPA, the beer of linguists.

Jez

im not eating spinach salad

heh

Kit

@Jez Your loss.

Kosmonaut

15:52

Weissbier

Weissbier (German: "white beer", usually spelled Weißbier; see ß), also known as Weizenbier ("wheat beer"), is a Bavarian specialty beer in which a significant proportion of malted barley is replaced with malted wheat: a wheat beer. By German law, Weissbiers brewed in Germany must be top-fermented. Specialized strains of yeast are used which produce overtones of banana and clove as by-products of fermentation. Weissbier is so called because it was at the time of its inception paler in color than Munich brown beer. It is well-known throughout Germany, though better known as Weizen (literal...

Kit

@Jez Focaccia. Rosemary and oregano. Basic garlic sourdough.

Jez

@Kit i bet they dont have that at the supermarket.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — Ahem:

Jun 9 at 14:33, by Kosmonaut

@RegDwight I actually really dislike IPA.

aedia

@JSBangs It happens sometimes, but don't worry, I'll forget soon enough.

Kit

@Jez Those, that's more than one kind.

Kosmonaut

15:53

@Robusto Yes, that's true. I like wheat beer the best.

Robusto

My new fave is Dogfish Head 90-Minute IPA.

Kosmonaut

Lagers and pilsners are good too.

Robusto

dogfish.com/brews-spirits/the-brews/year-round-brews/…

Kit

@Jez Okay, so get yourself a baguette or some poor boys, split them, brush them with olive oil, sprinkle oregano, salt, black pepper on them. Then crush some garlic cloves on them, put fresh mozzerella on top and bake until toasty warm.

Jez

poor boys? :-)

that must be an Americanism

JSBangs

15:55

wait, why did we suddenly turn into cooking.se chat?

Kit

@Jez It's a kind of roll.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — I thought pilsner was a kind of lager.

Jez

weird.

JSBangs

@Kit huh. i only know it as a name for a kind of sandwich from New Orleans

Kit

@JSBangs This heathen wanted to know what to have with spaghetti bolognese.

psmears

15:55

@JSBangs Will post it when I've finished writing it :)

aedia

@Robusto I keep hoping to find the 120 minute again. I have only had it once or twice.

Kosmonaut

@Jez I believe the term is "po' boy".

Po' boy

A po' boy (also po-boy, po boy, or poor boy) is a traditional submarine sandwich from Louisiana. It almost always consists of meat, usually roast, or seafood, usually fried, served on baguette-like Louisiana French bread. Preparation A key ingredient that differentiates po' boys from other submarine sandwiches is the bread. Typically, the French bread comes in two-foot-long "sticks". Standard sandwich sizes might be a half po' boy, about six inches long (called a "Shorty") and a full po' boy, at about a foot long. The traditional versions are served hot and include fried shrimp and oy...

Rhodri

@JSBangs It's a requirement. At least once a week we have to talk about food to make Reg run for wikipedia links

Kit

@JSBangs So named because of the bread, I believe.

JSBangs

what @Kosmo said

@Kit that's not what it says on Le Wik

Jez

15:56

i always find bread with spag bol rather filling so I was going to look for a light kind of bread

Kosmonaut

@Robusto Well, I like the colors blue and navy blue too.

:)

Kit

@JSBangs Yes, because Wikipedia is always 100% correct she says drily.

@Jez Or maybe you should have a spinach salad...

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — Touché.

Jez

3 mins ago, by Kit

@Jez Okay, so get yourself a baguette or some poor boys, split them, brush them with olive oil, sprinkle oregano, salt, black pepper on them. Then crush some garlic cloves on them, put fresh mozzerella on top and bake until toasty warm.

aedia

@Robusto I have got to get to the brewery some time... it's not that far away, in DE. I think Flying Dog now also has tours (they're in western MD)... flyingdogales.com/blog/brewery-news

Jez

15:58

That is like a meal for me

Kit

@Jez What do you want? Miracles? Light bread, indeed.

Robusto

@aedia — I already had a fondness for the 90-Minute, but I just recently had it on draft for the first time, and it was amazing how the flavors harmonize in the keg.

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