English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwight

14:00

Wait where?

Kosmonaut

Yes.

RegDwight

I mean, I am peculiar.

Robusto

1

Q: Spurious flag notices?

Lately I go to the main page and see a large quantity of flags in the little notification box at the top of the page, like this 53 flags is a lot, right? Like, an emergency maybe? So I click on it and there is one single flagged item: What gives? Is this FAD or a bug of some kind?

In the comments.

RegDwight

But hey, you set out to build yourself 50+ communities, you don't get to wonder if not every single one of them is completely identical to every single other one.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Well, in your case he got it right. But still ...

z7sg

14:01

"you do understand my?"

RegDwight

Well, we often don't remove the flags too fast. We like to leave some up as a post-it for other mods.

According to @Dori, Rebecca was wondering about that, too, at one point.

Robusto

I still think that FAD is a poor excuse for me being alerted to flags that aren't really visible to me.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight It tells you if you've looked at it, and it tells you if another mod has looked at it, so what is the problem?

RegDwight

Exactly.

Kosmonaut

I thought that flags accumulated, and at a certain threshold, automatic action gets taken

RegDwight

14:05

But it appears we are expected to be at 0 at all times.

Kosmonaut

If a flag seems warranted, shouldn't it be allowed to accumulate?

RegDwight

I have no other explanation as to what "peculiarities to the way this site is moderated" could possibly mean.

Kosmonaut

By the way, speaking of "not disagreeing with other mods in public"

I guess supermods also don't follow that rule?

RegDwight

Well, that's not a hard-and-fast rule as in you must love communism and I must love bagels. It's more of a don't-start-an-edit-war or something.

Ah.

Kosmonaut

Come on, basically saying we do it wrong, and nothing else?

RegDwight

14:08

Well, it's not like I am not saddened by the whole affair.

z7sg

@RegDwight You are here to be saddened.

RegDwight

Not that often, thankfully.

BTW, @Robusto, do you get those spurious flag notices on SO? Or is that feature disabled there wholesale?

Because I am pretty sure they have hundreds of flags at any given moment.

I've heard people boasting about bringing it under 100.

Haha, look at the improvement that user has made to his question.

-1

Q: Are these sentences correct?

On mars do place largest canyon in solar system. It do meeting every two years with Earth. you do understand my?

grammar punctuation spelling

z7sg

Yes, I do understand my!

RegDwight

I am starting considering erring on the side of this being a troll.

JSBangs

1

Q: Region-specific game names

I grew up in a small town in Eastern Kentucky, and we played a game called sookie (soak e). This game is very similar to dodge ball except that it is every man for himself. Adults taught us this game and it was what it was called when they were children so the name goes back to at least the early...

etymology names colloquial

Kosmonaut

14:14

Oh gosh.

JSBangs

this feels like it should be closed

but i'm not quite sure what the reason is

RegDwight

Too localized?

JSBangs

i went with "too localized"...

so, ha, we agree

RegDwight

For once!

Kosmonaut

I don't know, the last sentence is kind of a general question.

RegDwight

14:17

Even a broken clock...

Kosmonaut

I feel like the second-to-last sentence is off the mark and is too localized.

RegDwight

But the last question is kind of a dupe of those "are we getting just a single variety of English" questions, of which we already have a couple.

Also, a general question can still be too localized.

Kosmonaut

Yes, that might be.

What I meant by "general" was that it didn't seem too localized. But being a dupe, or even being not a real question, that might be possible.

Robusto

@RegDwight — Honestly, I don't look at the flags on SO. I only get a vote there even on edits, so I don't even bother. Honestly, I don't bother with the SO site at all, much, unless I have a question or it turns up in Google.

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut Sure. It isn't lost on me that "too localized" is kind of the opposite of "dupe of a couple questions". I'm just brainstorming.

Kosmonaut

14:21

But I guess the main thing that probably sets off this scrutiny is that it is hard to imagine an informative, useful answer.

RegDwight

@Robusto I see. I just wish I had gotten to 10k on SO before I quit, because now I sure as pie am not getting there ever.

@Kosmonaut Which somehow reminds me of the fact that we still haven't handed out a single Reversal badge.

Kosmonaut

Hm, interesting.

RegDwight

Which, in turn, makes me think that the site is moderated rather firmly.

Do we even have an open question at -5?

JSBangs

@RegDwight i don't think so. we're trigger-happy on the closing

which is a good thing, imho

Kosmonaut

Not trigger-happy enough though, apparently.

RegDwight

14:24

Well, not trigger-happy enough, in case you haven't caught up with the latest developments.

JSBangs

@Kosmonaut why sayest thou so?

RegDwight

@Kosmonaut ARGH

JINX!

Kosmonaut

3

Q: Why 'Meaning of "I've gotten over X" ' was removed

I do not mean to stir up any commotion here, but today I looked at the list of my answers and realised that one (lousy one) had disappeared on its own. Curious I went to check it out and discovered that the entire question had been removed. May I ask for a brief answer as to why the question was ...

discussion

10

Q: Are questions about ununderstood English-language jokes on-topic?

In a song video made by an American acquaintance, there is a joke that I don't understand. I am not a native speaker, and I guess most English speakers would understand what makes his joke funny. Is it on-topic to ask what is the meaning of his play on words? As asked by Jeff Parker, here is...

discussion on-topic-off-topic

RegDwight

55 mins ago, by RegDwight

Wow, someone is in our internet deleting questions.

This is where the chat discussion starts.

Robusto

@RegDwight — So we're going recursive on it now?

RegDwight

14:27

Well, that's all we can do right now until someone at @Dori's level shows up.

JSBangs

gah. that Jeff Atwood, deleting our question against the will of the community

Kit

Kosmonaut

Wow, did he really say he scored in the 99th percentile on the English GMAT?

That is new

RegDwight

I don't even know who GMAT is.

Kit

@Kosmonaut Yeah well, I scored in the 99th percentile on the Analytics section of the GRE. Paper-based, even.

Kosmonaut

14:28

This morning, Jeff says that if there is a hint that the person is not 100% confident of their English skills, then the question is very likely to be off-topic.

RegDwight

Somehow I don't feel very well, because I'm not sure what Jeff must think of me moderating this site as an ESLer myself.

Kit

What have you got?

RegDwight

This is the saddest part for me personally.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — Who said that?

Kosmonaut

> if the person is not absolutely 100% confident of their skills in English, and the question is about a joke, the signals STRONGLY point to the question being off-topic.

RegDwight

14:30

Well, every question on every site ever only exists because people are not absolutely 100% confident about the subject at hand.

4

Robusto

@RegDwight — Graduate Management Admission Test. It's the GRE for MBA grinds.

RegDwight

Jeez.

Thanks.

Robusto

Like a good score on that would impress anybody.

JSBangs

@Kosmonaut who is he here?

the "I've gotten over X" question should be undeleted

can't @Reg save that?

Kosmonaut

Any mod can undelete it.

RegDwight

14:32

Only a mod can do that. And as I was saying, an ESL mod without a degree, and a communist at that, is not the wisest choice.

Kosmonaut

I'm not 100% confident of my skills in English.

Robusto

@RegDwight — What's this sudden modesty all about?

Kosmonaut

I make typos and even say things wrong sometimes.

RegDwight

Sorry, I have to chicken out in this whole affair because I feel somewhat personally attacked.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut — I never makes typo and always rightly say thing.

RegDwight

14:33

@Kosmonaut Well, again, StackOverflow is 100% questions where people are not confident of their skills in programming.

Rhodri

@Kosmonaut I just admitted in an answer to being not 100% certain of an assertion I made about grammar. I must be off-topic! Woe!

Kit

@RegDwight You know our community is behind you and supports you as our beloved mod, right?

JSBangs

@Kit couldn't @Kosmo undelete it?

Kit

@JSBangs I'm not going to speculate on the complicated inter-mod dynamic.

JSBangs

since he's not being accused of being a pineapple communist spy who doesn't even know what the GMAT is

Rhodri

14:36

IIRC that question did have some egregiously wrong answers getting seriously up-voted, but the question itself was fair enough.

RegDwight

Actually, I should stop referring to myself as ESLer. English is not even my second language.

Kosmonaut

@JSBangs Yes, the only thing he's done to me is, when I told him I didn't understand his logic for closing certain joke questions was:

"that's just basic ESL "explain the meaning of these words to me" stuff. Remember this site is supposed to be for experts so the standard here is high -- if it is simply ESL or explaining pop culture references that is insufficient."

Kit

@RegDwight You could use EOLer, but that might be confusing.

RegDwight

@Kit English as oleventh language?

Kit

@RegDwight English as Other Language. Crud.

I guess that should be EALer

RegDwight

14:38

See. Pineapple.

Kit

I love pineapple and mango sorbet.

RegDwight

@Kit Let's just settle for AOL already.

Kosmonaut

"This isn't a subtle problem; english.se has enough severe quality issues as-is without adding pop culture guidance and ESL joke translation services to the litany of standing problems."

Honestly, this makes me want to throw my hands up and say "screw this".

Martha

What I don't get is, "Problems encountered by people learning English" is specifically listed as on topic.

JSBangs

@Kosmonaut hmmm. i disagree with this

RegDwight

14:39

@Kosmonaut Wow. That is new.

JSBangs

i mean, i disagree w/ mr. atwood

RegDwight

I haven't seen that one yet.

Kosmonaut

Seriously. Screw it.

Rhodri

@RegDwight: The language schools near me used to use EFL (English as a Foreign Language).

Martha

So what Jeff is saying is, "Some problems encountered by some people learning English are OK, others are not, and we reserve the right to arbitrarily redraw that line at whim."

JSBangs

14:40

obviously, we have lots of easy questions. but so does SO. and we give seriously awesome answers

RegDwight

@JSBangs That's what Joel himself actually tweeted at one point.

JSBangs

@RegDwight i remember that

Kit

@Martha Not we, he reserves that right.

JSBangs

i also remember when Joel posted a question that was very marginally on-topic, and i almost close-voted him.

Martha

@Kit Well, I was putting words in Jeff's mouth.

trg787

14:42

E.g. my mom (b.1926) hates Lenin and Stalin. They ruined our country. Sorry guys for off top, just wanted to let you know

JSBangs

@Kit i actually agree with Jeff that benign dictatorship is preferable to open democracy on this kind of site, so in principle i support his right to act unilaterally even if i don't agree with all of his specific actions

that said, he's not threatening to shut down the site. indeed, he's not really doing anything at all with our site, other than popping up every now and then to complain about something that doesn't actually bother any of the regulars

Kosmonaut

I couldn't disagree more with the way he keeps saying he doesn't like the job we mods are doing without any attempt to show us what he is talking about.

JSBangs

so i'm going to ignore him

@Kosmonaut and i would recommend that you do the same

Kit

@JSBangs I agree that true democracy is a clusterf*ck, but we have a solid ruling committee. I think we should be the ones to decide where the lines are drawn.

Rhodri

A good benign dictator listens to his advisors.

JSBangs

14:44

if we simply avoid attracting his attention, then the problem goes away

in any case, i would urge us not to make a stink on meta, in case anyone was thinking of doing so

let it blow over, then get back to our lives

Kosmonaut

@JSBangs Easy for you, as a mod I put a lot of effort into tedious stuff, trying to make this site a better place. I spend time thinking about questions, answers, comments, and flags, trying to decide if I should take action here, or do something there. I care a lot about what happens.

And then every so often a big kid comes by and shakes my ant farm or pulls a leg off my pet spider or stomps on my sandcastle or whatever

RegDwight

Same here.

Martha

@Kosmonaut Is there some non-confrontational way to, well, confront him about it? Because I think a topic on meta "Jeff, please explain yourself" might be a bit, um, over the top, but I've never seen him in chat. And he needs to explain himself.

Kosmonaut

And says "you were doing it wrong"

RegDwight

Mar 11 at 15:38, by RegDwight

JSBangs

14:46

@Kosmo @Reg obviously i care a lot, too. otherwise what am i doing retagging all of these questions?

RegDwight

s/feature request/question/, s/status declined/off-topic/.

JSBangs

@Martha i suggest an e-mail. the SE overlords are busy, and I've had a lot of trouble getting them to notice meta before. but a nicely-worded email got their attention

Kit

@JSBangs Trying to get badges in every tag imaginable?

Martha

@JSBangs I'm way too tired to compose even a borderline-polite email today.

JSBangs

@Martha i suppose i could try to write the email. i'm a quasi-neutral party, since i'm not a mod and wasn't involved in the meta discussion

RegDwight

14:49

@Kit Lol. He would need to answer more questions, though.

Kosmonaut

I'm way too angry to write an email. And I would probably spend the entire day composing it.

RegDwight

I am pineapple.

Rhodri

@JSBangs Something about there being an inconsistency between the FAQ and overlord activity, perhaps?

RegDwight

I, pineapple.

Just two excellent movies with Will Smith.

Kit

So let's just have Two Minutes of Hate, and write emails tomorrow then, shall we?

aedia

14:50

Hi all. I think I need a lot more coffee before I understand what's happening. For the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with the jokes and I'm confused about why they're different from any other "explain this to me" question (it can be a bad question if the author puts no effort in, or it can be an interesting question).

Kit

@RegDwight Will Smith played Spartacus?

RegDwight

@Kit We're always at war with Oceania!

Kit

@RegDwight Exactly, my friend! We hate those guys! Rawr!

RegDwight

@aedia Well, frankly, we are closing some of the other "explain this to me" questions.

There, ask @MrHen.

JSBangs

this question is off-topic. this question has always been off-topic.

RegDwight

14:51

You come right at the right moment, @MrHen.

MrHen

Er, not really the best moment for me. Is it quick?

Kosmonaut

@aedia In my honest opinion, I think Jeff had a knee-jerk reaction to seeing questions centering around jokes, because they are clearly off-topic elsewhere, and then when it was pointed out that they can actually serve a purpose on EL&U, he didn't want to admit acting rashly.

Robusto

@Rhodri — English as an Effing Language.

4

RegDwight

15 hours ago, by MrHen

If we don't allow song lyrics, we shouldn't allow jokes

aedia

I didn't understand some of the closed joke questions without the explanations. And I'm a native speaker, my job involves writing, and I got a perfect SAT verbal score (although perhaps that doesn't make me serious enough for some people).

Kit

14:52

@Robusto Perfect.

RegDwight

@MrHen I can just keep quoting you, no sweat.

Kit

I love you, @aedia.

aedia

@RegDwight Well, yes. Some are bad questions :)

RegDwight

God, all this loving in this room.

Robusto

@aedia — Yeah, but we only respect perfect GRE verbal scores around here. AND 6-points for the essay section.

MrHen

14:53

@RegDwight Okay. I'll be in and out and can chat more later.

Kit

@Robusto Thank you. It's nice to be appreciated for my real talents.

@Robusto D'Oh!

RegDwight

@aedia Nah, what I'm saying is that a non-negligible amount of people object to Yoichi's questions, for example.

Robusto

@Kit — But we don't respect you in so many other ways. Take comfort in that.

RegDwight

And we close lyrics questions.

So not all "explain this to me" questions are created equal.

Kit

I think it has more to do with jokes multicollidering.

JSBangs

14:55

@Kit this is a legitimate concern

RegDwight

@Kit That Chuck Norris joke got multicollidered ages ago.

JSBangs

well, kind of

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight I wouldn't close a lyrics question that is not about interpretation.

They just usually are about that.

RegDwight

15 hours ago, by RegDwight

Jeff must have seen it.

That's where I was discussing it with MrHen.

Robusto

Maybe the mods and Jeff need to have a summit meeting.

aedia

14:57

@Kosmonaut Hmm. Yeah. Lyrics are usually like literature.

JSBangs

@Kosmonaut english.stackexchange.com/search?q=lyrics+closed%3A0

there's a whole pile of non-closed lyrics questions

heck, there's even lyrics... which i'm kind of against, but there it is

Robusto

Well, we could retag them: cole-porter, elvis-costello, lennon-mccartney ...

Mr. Disappointment

OK, stop talking till I catch up on all this hubbub, please...

4

RegDwight

@JSBangs Well, it comes in totally handy right now, doesn't it?

Kit

@Robusto Sunday, sunday, SUNDAY! Battle (battle battle) of the Mods!

Robusto

14:59

pink-floyd would get a lot of questions.

Kosmonaut

@JSBangs That stuff should probably be sorted through to figure out what fits and what doesn't. But again, today I really can't muster any motivation whatsoever.

RegDwight

We also have mathematics and programming. Why not have lyrics in that case.

Kit

@Robusto Heaven forfend.

Robusto

@Kit — You are so outing yourself.

Kit

@Robusto What? What did I say?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…