English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2018-01-01 (page 4 of 4)

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9:00 PM

You don't imprison someone without proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Making for an unsafe workplace is horrible.

sometimes when take taxi and some womens sit next to me she can put her hands on my back for example and I didn't say anything because she can turns that against me and say me who want to make sexual harsament

That's bizarre.

i'm not talking about carpool

i'm tallking about taxi

I've never hard of such a thing. But the world is a big place, and a bad one.

> "Man's love is of man's life a thing apart,
'T is woman's whole existence; man may range
The court, camp, church, the vessel, and the mart;
Sword, gown, gain, glory, offer in exchange
Pride, fame, ambition, to fill up his heart,
And few there are whom these cannot estrange;
Men have all these resources, we but one,
To love again, and be again undone.

(I don't understand what is the subject of **offer**)

Sword, gown, gain, glory = nouns;

Who is making the offer?

9:03 PM

yes because here is too crowd and even it's muslim country they didn't apply islam they can have drugs , sex, and other bad stuff

and that goes for both gender

womens and men

@CowperKettle Let me look.

womens and men

*women and men

@tchrist Is it a good question for the main site? It may be better to ask there then

To help other learners

Okay, I've got it.

9:04 PM

@tchrist thumbs up

Men may range the court..and the mart.

Yes.

The subject of offer MIGHT be "sword, gown, gain, glory" but those might be the object and men the subject.

How yucky! I should be able to see this straight away!

Okay, I'll ask on the main site for the benefit of the future AI engines who will try to understand English poetry

Men may offer sword and gown in exchange.

I don't know that I believe that parse.

Go ahead and ask. Make sure you point out that this is a simple matter of grammar.

@CowperKettle Make sure you point out that this is a simple matter of on-topic syntactic analysis — determining the parse of the text to identify subject + verb + object — not off-topic literary analysis.

9:10 PM

0

Q: Need help parsing a passage in Byron's Don Juan: what is the subject of "offer" here?

From Byron's Don Juan: "Man's love is of man's life a thing apart, 'T is woman's whole existence; man may range The court, camp, church, the vessel, and the mart; Sword, gown, gain, glory, offer in exchange Pride, fame, ambition, to fill up his heart, And few there are whom these c...

meaning-in-context poetry

Thanks!

what do you call a person (women) who pee in bedroom all the time

You folks certainly have wide-ranging conversations. Or should that be wide ranging conversations?

Hyphens are a bit of a mystery to me.

@FaheemMitha wideranging? It's the next step on the hyphenization waterfall

@Educ You mean who urinate in their sleep?

9:17 PM

yes

Isn't there a medical chatroom here?

We call them bedwetters, but it is not a gendered term.

what do you call a person (women) who urinate in their sleep?

what do you call a person who has cancer?

@Mitch Is that actually standard, or are you being... mavericky?

9:18 PM

Again, we don't have a word for this that applies only to women.

@FaheemMitha maver-icky

Bedwetters are mercilessly teased as children

no one says 'wideranging'

@Mitch LOL. But you didn't answer the question.

@Mitch Glad to hear it.

but there is a ...

what do you call it...

a pathway from two words to hyphenated to single combined word

black board -> black-board -> blackboard

9:20 PM

Did you mean to write:

black board -> black-board -> blackboard

Hey, does 'Faheem' mean something?

?

@FaheemMitha yes, fixed.

@Mitch Yes, there used to be a Wikipedia page about it.

Of course, as we know, Wikipedia folks love deleting pages. It's like their hobby.

@FaheemMitha What did that wiki page used to say?

9:21 PM

Faheem is a masculine given name of Arabic origin, also used as a surname, which means "perceptive", "understanding", "keen" or "intelligent", derived from the root word Fahm, found in the Quran in verse 21:79. Alternative spellings include Fahiem, Fahim and Fehim. The name may refer to: == Given name == Faheem Ahmed (born 1980), Pakistani cricketer Fahim Ashraf (born 1994), Pakistani cricketer Fehim Čurčić (1886–1916), Bosnian politician Fahim Faisal (born 1986), Bangladeshi musician Fahim Fazli (born 1966), American actor Fahim Hashimy (born 1980), Afghan businessman Faheem Hussain (1942–2009...

@FaheemMitha they're almost as uptight as ELUers

@FaheemMitha nice

I think it was better before. The other thing Wikipedia folks like to do is mess up perfectly good pages It's like their hobby. Wait, did I just say that?

@FaheemMitha Where are you from

European names are so opaque, they meant something 2000 years ago but have metamorphized into something else

@Educ I'm Indian, if that is what you are asking.

9:23 PM

yes

@FaheemMitha Yes, you just said that

@Mitch Well, there are all those Hebrew ones from the Bible.

since your name is arabic one I thought that you are from Arabs countries

Right. They all 'mean' something literally

@Educ No, but I'm ethnically Muslim.

9:23 PM

Yes I see

Except for 'David'.

do you speak arabic

unless I can't remember

david in arabic داود

Not particularly uncommon in India. There is a big Muslim population here. Larger than some Muslim countries.

@Educ Who, me? No.

9:25 PM

ah okay

does it have a ... derivation? LIke 'Da' = killer, 'vood' = of giants'?

@Educ Well, it's an Arabic root. But I think it also shares with Persian, possibly.

yes

since it is old testament, probably Semitic (= arabic/Hebrew)

yes, The Quran talks about david

there is acually story about dabid and his son

i don't rememeber it

9:28 PM

So, is it wide-ranging or wide ranging, and who decides?

The biblical David (Arabic: داؤد‎, translit. Dā’ūd or Arabic: داوود‎, translit. Dāwūd), who was, according to the Hebrew Bible, the second king of the United Kingdom of Israel and Judah, reigning in c. 1010–970 BCE, is also venerated in Islam as a prophet and messenger of God, and as a righteous, divinely-anointed monarch of the ancient United Kingdom of Israel, which itself is revered in Islam. Additionally, Muslims also honor David for having received the divine revelation of the Psalms. Mentioned sixteen times in the Quran, David appears in the Islamic scripture as a link in the chain of prophets...

I don't know if wikipedia can be taking as reference

but just to have some idea

@Educ WP is a perfectly good reference. Just don't treat it as gospel.

because some people don't accept wikipedia as trusth reference for information

@FaheemMitha I'm muslim

@Educ Ok.

@Educ Well, it's unreliable. But so is everything else.

I have enjoyed it the talks with you folks good night, may be I can come back later see ya

9:35 PM

@Educ What is your location?

Casablanca Morocco

@Educ Oh, Morocco? Not a lot of people from there on SE.

So, just how messed up is it there?

@FaheemMitha Why the assumption that it's messed up?

@tchrist The world is generally a messed up place.

Arda Marred

> "For even if we under Eru have the power to return to Middle-earth and cast out Morgoth from the Kingdom of Arda, we cannot destroy all the evil that he has sown, nor seek out all his servants—unless we ravaged the whole of the Kingdom and made an end of all life therein; and that we may not do." —Mandos, from The Peoples of Middle-earth

9:42 PM

@tchrist I remember. You're the Tolkien expert.

Though I'm not sure what the relevance is.

tor.com/2017/03/28/middle-earth-a-world-on-the-edge

The connection is that the world is a messed-up place.

> The promise of destruction hovers constantly over The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion.

Yes, like the real world, really.

Though we don't have a lot of magic rings here.

People who think it some dumb black-vs-white cut-and-dry morality play are lost in video games or films. They don't understand.

Word of the day: undone

user image

@tchrist Maybe they watched Jackson's films.

9:46 PM

@FaheemMitha This is part of the problem. Jackson never understood anything of the moral compass of the tale.

Actually, I'd say the dominant theme of TLOTR is loss. That might be true of Tolkien's other writings. But I've not read them. Well, I read "The Hobbit" too.

Jackson had Elendil’s heir brutally slay an ambassador under a truce flag.

@tchrist He's a Hollywood director. His moral compass is probably a large check.

@tchrist And made Faramir a bad guy. Weird, that.

Where the line of Númenor runs true, as it did in both Aragorn and Faramir, no such treason against the gods is possible.

> It is a fair tale, though it is sad, as are all the tales of Middle-earth, and yet it may lift up your hearts.

@tchrist One just cannot express such complicated concepts in movies, I'm afraid. There are books for that.

9:50 PM

@CowperKettle That's something I often hear, but I don't know that I agree.

I do agree that nuance is hard to portray.

Tolkien believed a true fairytale always has an uplifting eucastrophe.

Because, of course, that's not really how the world works.

@CowperKettle I don't think that's true. Why is it complicated?

> Eucatastrophe is a term coined by English writer J. R. R. Tolkien which refers to the sudden turn of events at the end of a story which ensures that the protagonist does not meet some terrible, impending, and very plausible and probable doom.

> The consolation of fairy-stories, the joy of the happy ending: or more correctly of the good catastrophe, the sudden joyous ‘turn’ (for there is no true end to any fairy-tale): this joy, which is one of the things which fairy-stories can produce supremely well, is not essentially ‘escapist’, nor ‘fugitive’.”

> “In its fairy-tale–or otherworld–setting, it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on to recur. It does not deny the existence of dyscatastophe, of sorrow and failure: the possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; it denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and in so far is evangelium, giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief.”

> Eucatastrophe, then, is the turn of the story, right at the darkest moment when no hope remains, from the overwhelming inevitability of defeat to a “sudden and miraculous grace.” So yes, it is a happy ending–but one which was born out of great suffering and catastrophe. One which came about against all odds.

As poignant as grief.

Spontaneous tears of joy unexpected and unlooked for after all hope had been lost.

That's what he was always aiming for.

To get there, you have to show how awful things truly are.

An example of something the films do a really poor job of covering - scifi.stackexchange.com/q/97562/1389

But I do agree it would be hard to stuff all that into a film.

Maybe I'm wrong

9:58 PM

And yet Denethor Sauron could not ever manage to turn to the side of evil. He could only trick him into loss of hope.

TLOTR certainly has plenty of material. And much of it is in play at any given time.

Saruman was another story.

@tchrist Yes, he took hope away from him. And left him with despair. So he eventually killed himself.

Humans don't do well without hope. Even in fairy tales.

That's right.

A person needs just three things in life: something to do, someone to love, and something to hope for.

2

I remember being particularly outraged with how Faramir was portrayed. Afterwards, I lectured the people who I had watched the movie with about how disgraceful it was.

Which was weird, because I've never considered myself a Tolkien fan. But they listened politely.

10:01 PM

The radio version was just as long as movie version, but it gave nothing up.

What I mean is, it didn't pervert anyone.

@tchrist Radio version?

The Lord of the Rings (1981 radio series)

In 1981 BBC Radio 4 produced a dramatisation of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings in 26 half-hour stereo installments. The novel had previously been adapted as a 12-part BBC Radio adaptation in 1955 and 1956 (of which no recordings are known to have survived), and a 1979 production by The Mind's Eye for National Public Radio in the USA. Like the novel on which it is based, The Lord of the Rings is the story of an epic struggle between the Dark Lord Sauron of Mordor, the primary villain of the work, and an alliance of heroes who join forces to save the world from falling under his shadow...

@tchrist Oh, I didn't know of that one.

It's much much better than the movies.

@tchrist Not that hard, really.

10:03 PM

It even manages to capture something that the movies gave up on: song.

You can buy it.

amazon.com/Lord-Rings-BBC-Dramatization/dp/0553456539

It is NOT an "audio book"!

It is a radio drama.

Here's the final episode:

THE LORD OF THE RINGS Audio Drama The Grey Havens (Pt 13 of 13)

0

Q: Meaning of "As roll the waves before the settled wind" in Byron's "Don Juan"

From Byron's Don Juan: "My breast has been all weakness, is so yet; But still I think I can collect my mind; My blood still rushes where my spirit's set, As roll the waves before the settled wind; My heart is feminine, nor can forget— To all, except one image, madly b...

meaning lord-byron don-juan

10:45 PM

@FaheemMitha I think both are fine, but I'm not a newspaper editor

@Mitch Ok. Thank you.

if I were really concerned I would just google for it

and see what other people use

@FaheemMitha google search for "wide ranging" actually returns mostly "wide-ranging"

so go for 'wide-ranging'

@Mitch It would be nice to have a reason to prefer one over the other.

11:07 PM

0

Q: What do you call someone who needs to be clean?

Someone who needs to be clean for example someone who showers everyday or who opens the bathroom door and then washes their hands so they don't get germs on them when they touch the door handle?

single-word-requests

11:31 PM

@Educ You'll have to ask whoever changed the room's name. But since it's "the incomprehensible room', I suspect this was part of the holiday fun in the context of a discussion on pronunciation.

11:45 PM

@FaheemMitha You can say something ranges widely/wildly/broadly/etc over the parameters, that it is wide ranging, or that it is a wide-ranging thing. It's a matter of how closely wide is bound to ranging in your specific utterance. Similar to "cup of tea" = tea served in a small vessel (emphasis on tea; the cup is incidental); tea cup = vessel for tea (less emphasis on tea); tea-cup = cup whose function is/was/appears to be to hold tea (low emphasis on tea; focus is on cup).

Has anyone seen @Kit Z. Fox? ELL's chat stalwart Damkerng T. disappeared without a trace; hoping this isn't a repeat.

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Jan '181

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