English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

15:00

Is there something like Firebug for IE9?

Matt Эллен

yes. firebug!

one sec...#

@KitFox firebug lite

also I think there are developer tools for IE

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox are the modern masons actually into eugenics, or is that a vestigial thing?

the masons i've known certainly never said anything about it

Matt Эллен

@KitFox f12 developer tools

KitFox

@JSBձոգչ Any idea what level they are?

Robusto

@MattЭллен The F stands for fail. They are not as good as Firebug, nor even as good as Chrome's F12 dev tools.

JSBձոգչ

15:04

@Robusto but they are better than anything else that's available for IE

and i've found them to be generally good enough

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ True. Sad and odious, but true.

Matt Эллен

It is at least partly because IE is not as good a browser as the others

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ Although you can debug Javascript in IE through Visual Studio. Just attach the process and you're in business. Gotta find the right process first, though, which can be hard if your IE has 20 tabs open.

KitFox

@Robusto Oh, yeah. Duh.

JSBձոգչ

@MattЭллен i rank IE since 8 above FF... but that's just me.

KitFox

15:06

Well, 9 is not rendering an arrow I need. I can't figure out why.

Matt Эллен

@JSBձոգչ yes. just you. :Þ I don't even like 9

Robusto

@KitFox Probably because Microsoft has determined that you do not need arrows, and so has removed them from your toolset. They're just looking out for your best interests, you know.

Arrows are sharp. You could poke your eye out.

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox f12 will handle that for your pretty easily. first thing is to find out whether your page is in standards mode or quirks mode

KitFox

@Robusto I'm thinking so. Also, that my nice formatting can suck.

JSBձոգչ

you may be in quirks mode. beware.

KitFox

15:08

Hmm. But will my users be in quirks mode? Oh, yes, of course they will. They use IE.

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ That's the trouble with IE. It's still impossible to tell what does or does not trigger what mode. So many freakin' modes: compatibility mode, strict mode, and blah blah blah.

JSBձոգչ

"quirks mode" causes IE to emulate broken IE6 behaviors. it will make your page look annoyingly different than it does in other browsers. you want standards mode, so that you get non-broken CSS, etc.

IE8+ in standards mode is on par with chrome and FF

Robusto

It still doesn't do everything those others can do.

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox but do you expect your users to use old versions of IE?

KitFox

@JSBձոգչ Yes. They are schoolteachers.

JSBձոգչ

15:10

if you do, you may have to use quirks mode, so that it renders properly on old IE

KitFox

If I'm lucky, they will use Safari instead.

JSBձոգչ

or you can tell those people to suck it and upgrade

(that's what i would do)

Robusto

You can't tell your teacher to suck it. You will get detention.

KitFox

I put out that the preferred browser is Firefox.

But they don't know "browser" from "operating system" so that probably won't help.

sighs I haven't got a clue.

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox this may be enlightening: quirksmode.org/compatibility.html

also, look at F12 dev tools

srsly

or give me a link to your page and i'll look at it

KitFox

15:15

@JSBձոգչ I'm using these right now.

I think I'm going to have to tell them they can't use anything prior to IE 9.

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox i'd back that

Matt Эллен

What's that thing like emphasis. do I mean emphasis?

KitFox

I think some of my controls depend on n-th child, which isn't supported prior to IE9.

Matt Эллен

bah, stupid brain not being able to think of anything else

KitFox

@MattЭллен In what context, dearie?

Cerberus

15:20

@MattЭллен Stress?

JSBձոգչ

new topic: can the elections please be fucking over already?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh! maybe that's it

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ They are, and look at Kit!

JSBձոգչ

i'm tired of having the news be an endless loop of politicians saying stupid things

Matt Эллен

0

Q: What does "and are they ever " mean?

So this is the context taken from this post by Jeff who is a co-founder of Stack Exchange: With 46,656 paths to only 720 real world outputs, it's inevitable that some of those paths will be severely over-represented or under-represented in the output. And are they ever. If you shipped a ...

JSBձոգչ

15:21

@Cerberus lucky for you, you don't live in this country

KitFox

@MattЭллен I think I would use emphasis there. Now it's bugging me though. Intensifier. Highlighting. Damn it.

OK, so the whole a where the arrow should be is missing.

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ No...but our cabinets fall like bicycles in the wind. Elections are more frequent here. Next ones are September 12th.

JSBձոգչ

@MattЭллен you could mean "focus"

@Cerberus +1 for excellent simile. would read again.

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ Thanks. They can be like dominoes.

cornbread ninja

Avoid the Noid.

Cerberus

15:24

The idea is that you just skip any news about subjects that don't interest you. I barely saw or read anything about the Olympics.

JSBձոգչ

@Cerberus dominoes are cliche. you're slipping.

Cerberus

Thanks to @Matt's filter.

JSBձոգչ

@Cerberus my facebook feed is full of people posting Outrage of the Day

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ I thought the simile had ended already...I was just clarifying the physical effect.

@JSBձոգչ Oh. Facebook.

Do I have a feed?

KitFox

@JSBձոգչ Thanks, but it would be a lot of work for you to look at it, I think.

JSBձոգչ

15:25

my RSS reader would be full of it, too, but i have unsubscribed from most political blogs

Cerberus

I only log in there when someone sends me a private message, which is not that often.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus you're welcome :)

cornbread ninja

I quit the facebook, which is why I spend lots of time in here. :|

RegDwight АΑA

Congrats @JSB.

JSBձոգչ

woooooo

do i get a prize?

cornbread ninja

15:27

0_0

RegDwight АΑA

You can buy yourself ice cream.

JSBձոգչ

ice cream! yay!

Matt Эллен

@cornbreadninja I'm still on Facebook, and yet...

cornbread ninja

@MattЭллен You guys are infinitely more intelligent, engaging, diverse, enlightening, and profound than my facebook wall.

Cerberus

That is a lot.

Matt Эллен

15:29

@cornbreadninja you're too kind!

cornbread ninja

@MattЭллен I object.

Matt Эллен

I subject.

cornbread ninja

I verb.

KitFox

Damn. I gotta go. Family urgency. @Matt, can you do Writers chat today? Or leave a note on my behalf? I'm going to be gone a few hours.

Matt Эллен

Aye can start it late

@KitFox Hope everything's OK

RegDwight АΑA

15:33

CU

Matt Эллен

bah. late answer gets upvote and I get nothing, but I said the same thing. stupid people

oh ok

it's fine. I got the accept

RegDwight АΑA

I just looked in the top right corner of this chat, and the search box there said "fag". And I wondered.

Matt Эллен

??

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA "You talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded."?

RegDwight АΑA

@cornbreadninja exactly.

cornbread ninja

15:38

eats cookie

RegDwight АΑA

Matt Эллен

toodles!

cornbread ninja

@RegDwightАΑA om nom OWWW!

All that orthodontia for naught.

Robusto

0

Q: "A n a l y s e s"

What did you read the title of this question as? A noun, or a verb? I've often written both the plural form of the noun analysis and the 3rd person singular form of the verb analyse, and only today I realised they are spelt exactly the same way.

verbs nouns

NARQ.

RegDwight АΑA

Daily vote limit reached. Can't vote.

Robusto

15:49

Lies.

You can't not unvote.

Cerberus

@mrshinyandnew Do you ever type something like oedQQ in Chinese transliteration? If so, you can set it to recognise only lower-case qq.

Robusto

Cerberus

Haha.

Robusto

16:08

"The only thing with legs that Chinese people won't eat is a chair." — A Chinese colleague

RegDwight АΑA

16:19

Commute.

Mitch

Ku Klux Klan

Ku Klux Klan, often abbreviated KKK and informally known as the Klan, is the name of three distinct past and present far-right organizations in the United States, which have advocated extremist reactionary currents such as white supremacy, white nationalism, and anti-immigration, historically expressed through terrorism. The current manifestation is splintered into several chapters with no connections between each other; it is classified as a hate group by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center. It is estimated to have between 3,000 and 5,000 members as of 2012. ...

@KitFox no mention of affinities

cornbread ninja

16:32

@RegDwightАΑA Associate.

howdy @Mitch

Mitch

look at the link to the original text I gave in the affinities question. It's kind of ...

@cornbreadninja hey!

..something.

"The main tenets in the creed of the secret fraternity were the following: (1)
memorialization of the original Klan; (2) white supremacy; (3) anti-Semitism; (4) anti-foreign-bornism; (5) anti-Catholicism; (6) "pure" Americanism; (7) Protestantism and strict morality. "

JSBձոգչ

such a lovely bunch, those guys

Mitch

so the passage is about the last item out of 7.

JSBձոգչ

interestingly, (3) and (5) has mostly dropped out of the modern Klan

Cerberus

The Catholic Church used to be the multi-headed monster.

Mitch

16:41

I never got that.

JSBձոգչ

what's the passage in question again?

Matt Эллен

HAI! Who wants 2 chats wiv me aboot writing?

The Overlook Hotel

General discussion for writing.stackexchange.com. Writing exer...

Cerberus

Because the ultimate and exclusive loyalty of Catholics is to the Pope, they cannot be loyal citizens.

Mitch

who cares about the Catholic church? (or for any other for that matter). Isn't it just your own team that you root for?

Cerberus

The Vatican is a foreign power. Allegiance to a foreign power is next to treason.

Mitch

16:43

@Cerberus Oh. well then. that's a good reason.

JSBձոգչ

well, you know that the Catholic Church is a terrible oppressive organization out to defile and oppose progress, liberty, America, and all that is good and pure

Cerberus

Yeah.

Mitch

yeah! that too.

JSBձոգչ

this particular meme has been adopted by modern-day atheists more than Klan-members, ironically

Cerberus

This was how Locke and many others looked at Catholics.

From the 19th century onwards, I believe Catholics became more emancipated.

Mitch

16:45

@JSBձոգչ "It is going to bring clean moving pictures to this country; it is going to bring clean literature to this country ...

It is going to break up roadside parking, and see that the young man who induces a young girl to get drunk is held accountable. It is going to enforce the laws of this land; it is going to protect homes ... The Klan means a new era in the life of America. It means the return of old time Southern chivalry and deference to womanhood; it means that the married man with an affinity' has no place in our midst."

Cerberus

In Holland, for example, the Church restores public services, hierarchy, and churches (of course they didn't get any of their old churches back), and it was allowed at last.

Mitch

That goddamned roadside parking!

Cerberus

It is of the Devil.

Almost as bad as loitering.

And, God forbid, a sandwich with both cheese and butter.

(This was frowned upon by the Dutch middle classes, or so the story goes.)

We still have a rhyming saying.

Matt Эллен

they wouldn't like me. I had cheese, butter and pickle in a sandwich today

Cerberus

Ahhhh.

Are you Satan!?

Matt Эллен

16:53

some might say

Cerberus

Do you have wings?

Matt Эллен

not that I can see

Cerberus

A shadow?

Matt Эллен

when I raise my arms, maybe

Cerberus

See.

Balrog.

6

Mitch

17:00

@Cerberus so lower and upper classes agree...butter and cheese: mmmmmm....

Cerberus

Now I must flee.

@Mitch Yup! Except that the poor probably couldn't always afford it.

Later!

breaks bridge

tchrist

17:20

@Robusto You missed a cap.

KitFox

@Mitch not looking Nope. Walking away from it.

Robusto

"Denying rape survivors a right to abortion is hard to defend. Challenging whether reported rapes are “legitimate” is downright retro. And the suggestion that getting pregnant means you weren’t really raped is so stupid and offensive it’s almost unbelievable, even for a congressman." William Saletan, writing in Slate.

@tchrist I don't wear a cap. I still have plenty of hair.

tchrist

@Robusto That your the question edited still seems lack sum comprehnsbility.

Robusto

@tchrist Whatever. I get bored performing janitorial tasks. Feel free to step in.

Mitch

@KitFox oh but it's fun! (anyway...you're winning...between you and me)

KitFox

17:31

@Mitch What? Preposterous! That's a ruse to get me to look again, innit?

Mitch

@KitFox blushes

well, I was telling you so you wouldn't have to look. 3 ups for you to my 1, 14 for the boring answer.

tchrist

@Robusto Fixed in the next release, along with the check in the mail.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist I consider an answer to be researched if it provides references that demonstrate its claims to be true.

Cerberus

@Robusto Can't those people read a biology book?

Robusto

There's a reason I didn't go into QA. I can actually do real work.

@Cerberus They get hung up on the parts that deal with evolution.

tchrist

17:35

@ΜετάEd Do I have to provide OED defs for sere and for yellow both? Surely this is GR?

Cerberus

Haha.

I can't believe there are people who deny basic science.

Robusto

@Cerberus Welcome to my country.

Cerberus

Things like Swedish "rape" laws do concern me a bit, though.

tchrist

@Cerberus I can't believe you can't believe there are people who deny basic science.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist If it's GR, then, by definition, you are able to supply “a single link to a standard internet reference source designed specifically to find that type of information”. Right?

Cerberus

17:36

Where it can be rape if you didn't ask the (wo)man formally whether ehm proceeding was permitted.

If the other person changes his mind later, you can be accused of rape, sort of.

tchrist

@ΜετάEd We went over that last night. The answer is no, that is wrong. If someone says what is the difference between begin and end, we can close it as GR despite requiring two links.

Mahnax

@Cerberus I know people who deny basic science. Lots of them.

Mitch

@ΜετάEd that's crazy talk.

Cerberus

Because how are you ever going to prove that you had permission?

Mitch

@ΜετάEd what if you're wrong?

Cerberus

17:37

@tchrist Then I guess I'm dumber than they.

ΜετάEd

@Mitch I know, right?

Robusto

@tchrist Uh, you still failboated it. Check again.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Really?

Mahnax

@Cerberus Yes, unfortunately.

Cerberus

Like whom?

tchrist

17:37

@Cerberus I strongly object to your use of he for a female antecedent.

Cerberus

@tchrist The antecedent was no more female than male.

KitFox

@Mitch I think the only thing that might settle it is to find the whole citation. The part right before the cited part has a thing about abolishing bootleggers or something. I think it's misleading to think the entire passage is about moral relationship behavior. The omitted parts might confirm or refute that notion.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Relatives.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist I'm not quibbling over the number of links required to call GR. I'm saying that a good answer gives references to reliable sources.

RegDwight АΑA

Well I'm happy to see that the starred wall is now full of balrogs and not penises. Though I guess now that I mentioned it, soon enough it will be full of essays on whether or not balrogs have penises.

Cerberus

17:38

You...

Mitch

@tchrist I don't believe that you said that ...where were we again?

tchrist

@ΜετάEd It's plain and simple English. I don't understand.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Then you can educate them!

Mahnax

@Cerberus snorts

Robusto

Mahnax

17:39

guffaws

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightАΑA shadowy wingèd penises

3

Mahnax

@Cerberus They would feed me to the chickens.

Cerberus

Then fry the chickens, and them with scientific facts.

tchrist

@Cerberus "Where it can be rape if you didn't ask the (wo)man formally . . . the other person changes his mind later, you can be accused of rape, sort of."

RegDwight АΑA

@MattЭллен what's that spot atop your winged penis? You might wish to see a balrodermatologist about it.

tchrist

17:40

His just doesn't work for me there.

Cerberus

I must admit I changed her to his.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist "We expect answers to be supported by facts, references, or specific expertise".

Cerberus

But I wanted to be politically correct and uphold the masculine neutral pronoun at the same time.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightАΑA höly çrap! i'd best get that seen to

Cerberus

Because assuming it was a woman would be politically incorrect.

tchrist

17:42

@ΜετάEd I gave facts.

If you think I have to give OED citations for YELLOW and such, you are out of your bloody mind.

I'll give a flamelesson on color-theory if you push me.

@Cerberus Changing her to his is not politically incorrect also?

RegDwight АΑA

Cerberus

@tchrist It is not.

RegDwight АΑA

Pictured from left to right: Tom, lesson.

tchrist

@Cerberus Disagree. You are assuming the gender. And don't give me any Victorian guff.

Cerberus

I am not.

Mitch

17:44

@KitFox gotcha to look!

anyway...the preceding paragraph, or rather that entire chapter called "Expansion in the 20's" is all about morals and church and boycotting and 'americanism', rare subjects discussed about the KKK.

Cerberus

I used his as the neutral pronoun, as you could see.

tchrist

@Cerberus No, I saw you use it as a gendered pronoun, as you can see.

Contemporary English views he as having a gender.

You may not like it.

You may try to enforce Victorianisms.

But so it is.

Cerberus

@tchrist I disagree.

KitFox

@Mitch Right, and the excerpt is tailored to that topic. Without the source, it is hard to say for certain. I have been looking for the original document for part of this day.

tchrist

@Cerberus How nice.

Cerberus

17:47

I will not be involved in your postmodernist pedantry!

And a prescriptive one at that.

tchrist

@Cerberus Preferring as you do premodernist peasantry.

Mitch

@Cerberus statistically (and pretty much any other) speaking, it would be 'her'. Guys are usually doing the raping.

KitFox

Except that I am being hampered by childcare and video games.

Mitch

@KitFox I gave a link to it in the OP

libsysdigi.library.uiuc.edu/OCA/Books2008-09/…

Cerberus

@tchrist I'm not a huge fan of peasantry, dirty hands and all.

ΜετάEd

17:48

@tchrist Not really. You gave your conclusion. May I suggest:

*Sere* and *yellow* are descriptive of an autumn leaf. Thus “in the sere and yellow” is a metaphor for being near the end of one’s life. In the quoted passage, it is used to mean that the man has not yet entered the autumn of his life, and is yet fit and hale.

Matt Эллен

and I gave a link to you!

Mitch

thwack

Matt Эллен

hehehe

Robusto

Who is saying that sere and yellow are synonyms?

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, but I was being politically correct, see? And the point is that women can be accused of "rape" much more easily under this silly Swedish law, because just having sex with someone without explicit permission can be rape, even if the man has to stuff to a woman, if I understand the law correctly.

KitFox

17:50

@Mitch No, you gave a link to a source that cites it.

ΜετάEd

@Robusto Someone did, but that occurred on a different answer than the one we are discussing.

Robusto

@Cerberus How do you stuff to a woman?

Cerberus

@Robusto If you don't know that yet, perhaps it is time for the Talk for you.

But I'm not your sexual educator.

ΜετάEd

@tchrist Do you see what I'm doing there? You gave your conclusion or interpretation, but without giving any facts to back it up.

Mitch

@KitFox ohhhhh...wow you're looking for the newspaper article?

KitFox

17:51

Yep.

Robusto

@Cerberus And who better to give me that talk than you?

Mitch

no wonder you can't find it. that's hard.

Matt Эллен

oh! Is Cerb about to talk dirty? ears prick up

KitFox

And let's look at this:

> The Klan had a great deal to say about the "pure" Americanism which it maintained was forever beyond the grasp of Negroes, Jews, the foreign-born, and Catholics. Ever ready was the secret fraternity to define Americanism, and to show the very special affinity its members possessed for this phenomenon, and to offer counsel on how a loyal attachment to the United States might be preserved, and even developed.

Cerberus

@Robusto Never. I could be accused of humanality.

Matt Эллен

17:52

awwwww

Robusto

@Cerberus Not by my analysis.

Matt Эллен

disappointed

JSBձոգչ

okay, what exactly is the point of all this Klan talk today?

how did the topic come up and what are we trying to find out?

KitFox

10

Q: The married man with an affinity

I was reading a book about events in the 1920's US south; and came across the phrase in a quote from a KKK spokes person. I can't figure out what the phrase means, and haven't been able to find any other use of it to give hints from broader context. For clarity I've included the most complete c...

meaning

We're having a friendly dispute about the meaning of this phrase in context.

Mitch

@KitFox fine I'll concede that there is no context for the original statement in the newspaper, but ...hm...is anything else relevant anymore? well, the rest of that article is about boycotting and general douchie-ness ... that is non-racial.

@JSBձոգչ Point? there's supposed to be a point?

Matt Эллен

17:54

@KitFox what does the apostrophe mean, at the end of affinity?

Mitch

@Cerberus please no potty talk in chat.

KitFox

@MattЭллен I was wondering the same thing. Maybe a typo? But it's in the article, not the post.

Robusto

@KitFox Your answer is right. The highest-voted answer is flat wrong. I gave you a +1.

Mitch

@MattЭллен emoticon of the time. a wink. You know, affinity' ...for you know what.

KitFox

@Robusto Well, I was a little put off by Jay's attack, but decided I didn't want to fight with someone who is probably a Klan member.

Cerberus

17:56

@Robusto Then what do you consider yourself to be? A Balrog?

Robusto

I also gave you a two-sentence imprimatur. Feel better now?

KitFox

Oh, thanks.

I'd rather take Jay to task for his ridiculous assertions that I'm imposing an "alien interpretation" on the meaning because I'm being prejudiced by the fact that it comes from a KKK spokesperson.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch oh'

KitFox

But I should probably set a good example about not having long, unrelated discussions in comments.

Mitch

@KitFox that ws worded a little too strongly.

KitFox

17:58

@Mitch What was?

Robusto

0

Q: Usage of "weller"

There's nothing I like weller than a most proficient speller. Is that sentence grammatically correct?

grammaticality comparative

Mitch

@MattЭллен after an "oh" it means something else entirely.

Robusto

Kill with fire.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch 'oh

@Robusto lol

I like the rhyme

Mitch

eyesbrows raised

KitFox

17:59

@Mitch K of C = Knights of Columbus.

Mitch

@Robusto poetry is off-topic

The Overlook Hotel

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…