English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

4:00 PM

By the way, did I tell you about that time I hurt my feet on the beach in Nice?

They had all sorts of uncomfortable cobble stones, or what have you, some sharp.

We probably picked the wrong beach.

user19161

1

Q: "Practice/practise" and "licence/license"

In British English, practice and licence are nouns while practise and license are verbs. This seems a very logical state of affairs. In American English, practice is both the noun and verb and the same is true of license. Even more bewildering is the fact that the former ends with c while the la...

orthography

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus "la plage du mort" is probably a bad choice, yeah

user19161

So ladies and gentlemen this is my undeleted question which you may want to answer. Any answer is guaranteed to get an upvote from me.

Robusto

W00t! New monitors at work for Robusto! Dual 24" displays.

Matt Эллен

(p.s. yes I made that up)

user19161

4:03 PM

@Robusto Nothing compared to your home TV.

Robusto

@WillHunting Nope. But I ain't at home, so ...

Matt Эллен

bbl.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Hmm but it sounded so...euphonious.

@Robusto Yay!

user19161

@MετάEd I have now undeleted the question you were interested in before, see above.

tchrist

@Cerberus I really, really wanted to write où parle-t-on . . . there, despite it being indicative. I wonder why.

Cerberus

4:09 PM

Because où can be a (non-subordinate) interrogative pronoun.

"Where do people speak...?"

tchrist

Ah. I bet that is it.

Cerberus

It is like saying "I don't know where is my mother".

@tchrist Would a subjunctive be different?

tchrist

Fancy English sometimes inverts, depending on the verb: "where runs the River Nile", but never for "where speak the people". Spanish often likes to use inversion in subordinate clauses, especially that involve intransitive or reflexive verbs: "donde se habla francés".

@Cerberus You actually cannot say that in English.

It has to be "I don’t know where my mother is." And I don’t know why.

Because other verbs sometimes invert there.

Cerberus

@tchrist See what I did there?

The exact same mistake as the one you were about to make in French.

tchrist

Yes, I think so.

Cerberus

4:13 PM

Which was OBVIOUSLY on purpose, d'oh.

tchrist

Peace.

user19161

@cerberus Do you have any answer for my question above?

Cerberus

@tchrist What inversion is this?

Would it be "habla se" in a main clause?

Robusto

@tchrist It's called anastrophe.

tchrist

No. It would be "se habla castellano".

Cerberus

4:15 PM

@WillHunting Hmm I have no idea: perhaps the OED knows...

tchrist

It’s the middle-voice reflexive.

@Robusto Time for a new tag. :)

Cerberus

@tchrist That's what I thought. So where is your inversion?

user19161

@Robusto One of your favourite words.

tchrist

@Cerberus It’s VS instead of SV I meant, not that it is abnormally inverted.

Cerberus

Subject?

But there is no subject.

user19161

4:16 PM

@tchrist VS=Victoria Secrets, SV=Super Vehicle

Cerberus

And why donde? So not related to subordinate clauses?

confused

tchrist

> Cómo saber dónde se puede fumar en España. Letra de A Dónde se marchó el amor? Dónde se originan los huracanes y dónde se forman. El reloj prosigue su cadencia silenciosa el esconde el vientre donde se gesta el amor va sangrando sobras de este tiempo enfurecido carga en sus agujas el ... Lanzada en 1912, no queda ningún rastro después del incendio sufrido en los estudios donde se había almacenado en 1914.

KitFox

@Robusto Hey, that's what I've got. Awesome, dude!

tchrist

It should be dónde in a subordinate clause, actually.

It just means "where", of course, as you know.

KitFox

Yo soy un hombre sincero de donde creces las palmas.

tchrist

4:18 PM

And it really like inversion. I don’t know why. I haven’t thought of a good way to search for the same in English.

@KitFox Yes, exactly.

Robusto

@WillHunting Not even close.

tchrist

Although I don’t quite know why you are growing palms. :)

> In the body of the book there is a smaller map: the intention of this is to make clear at a glance where lay the kingdoms of the Elves after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth.

> And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it.

Robusto

@KitFox Yo crei que tu eras une mujer.

tchrist

> By gentle slopes from the ‘plain it rose to a bleak and lofty land, where lay many tarns at the feet of bare tors whose heads were higher than the peaks of Ered Wethrin; but southward where it looked towards Doriath it fell suddenly in dreadful precipices.

user19161

For once the asker edited the question so that it became different and yet my original answer still holds, miracle!

tchrist

4:22 PM

Those all use where-inversion in the subordinate clauses. It seems to relate to certain verbs.

> Thence he passed through Dor Dínen, the Silent Land, and crossing the Arossiach (which signifies the Fords of Aros) came to the north marches of Beleriand, where dwelt the sons of Fëanor.

> But Lúthien came to the halls of Mandos, where are the appointed places of the Eldalië, beyond the mansions of the West upon the confines of the world.

> But in that coffer lay the Necklace of the Dwarves, wherein was set the Silmaril; and Dior looking upon it knew it for a sign that Beren Erchamion and Lúthien Tinúviel had died indeed, and gone where go the race of Men to a fate beyond the world.

> Now when Eärendil was long time gone Elwing became lonely and afraid; and wandering by the margin of the sea she came near to Alqualondë, where lay the Telerin fleets.

> But the fleet came at last to that place that was called Umbar, where was the mighty haven of the Númenóreans that no hand had wrought.

Lay. Dwelt. Sometimes be.

These verbs seem to want, or at least tolerate better than others, inversion after where.

> Therefore ere the Third Age was ended the Elves perceived that the Ring of Sapphire was with Elrond, in the fair valley of Rivendell, upon whose house the stars of heaven most brightly shone; whereas the Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lórien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel.

> The mountain-peaks south of Gondolin, where were the eyries of Thorondor.

Oh, lots more with be. I will look for other verbs than already demonstrated.

Found one: rose.

> Rerir Mountain to the north of Lake Helevorn, where rose the greater of the two tributary branches of Gelion. ‘Ford of Stones’, where the Dwarf-road from Nogrod and Belegost crossed the river Gelion.

KitFox

@Robusto Y antes de morirme, quiero echar mis versos del alma...

tchrist

Notice how rose inverts but crossed does not.

@Robusto No article there, macho.

Or we go into jelly-doughnut territory.

user19161

0

Q: "Pay-for" vs. "for-pay"

Is pay-for or for-pay the correct word? For example, which of these two sentences is correct? This is a pay-for product. This is a for-pay product.

word-choice adjectives word-order compounds

user19161

Are pay-for and for-pay even used at all?

tchrist

@Robusto Also, preterite creí implies you’ve stopped believing, whereas imperfect creía would not, and seems more normal.

@WillHunting Surely I hope not!

user19161

4:30 PM

@tchrist Anyway, what is the adjective? Free vs?

tchrist

Paid.

Maybe not.

Robusto

@tchrist Yo crei que tu eras una mujer. Eres un desgraciado por descubrir este error.

KitFox

Gay-for-pay. Example of proper usage.

user19161

I was thinking payable, but maybe not.

Robusto

@KitFox No derroches tus versos, mandamelos.

tchrist

4:32 PM

@Robusto No se debe anteponer ese artículo delante su nombre. Per Mithrandir: “Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves.”

RegDwighт

There is a word in German. No dictionary provides a translation that's of any use.

Cerberus

@tchrist You have yet to point out the inversion.

tchrist

@Cerberus I really like VS there.

KitFox

@Robusto Too late. I learned it in tenth grade and have remembered it ever since.

tchrist

Three times I tell you.

Robusto

4:33 PM

@tchrist The funny part is, I got my Chilean colleague to do the translations.

tchrist

Three times it is the same.

Cerberus

@tchrist You have yet to point out the subject.

tchrist

That which I tell you three times is true.

Cerberus

Se is not the subject.

Robusto

Dopamine is dope, bro.

tchrist

4:34 PM

In "... dónde se habla francés", obviously francés is the subject.

JSBձոգչ

what is with you people and subjects? there is no subject. the subject is a delusion of a mad society.

tchrist

Note agreement.

Cf "... dónde se hacen hombres."

KitFox

On parle français ici.

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ Thanks for subjecting us to that.

KitFox

Delusions are inherently subjective.

Cerberus

4:35 PM

@tchrist Alright, fair enough.

user19161

All thoughts are subjective. QED.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting all generalizations are false.

Cerberus

But you yourself said that this was not related to subordination.

tchrist

Eh?

Cerberus

You don't say francés se habla in a main clause, do you?

tchrist

4:38 PM

"Se habla francés" is the normal order.

It’s VS.

user19161

I think that if I delete the original question and repost it might get more attention, hmm I'll wait and see.

Robusto

@RegDwighт There are many words in German. Why pick on just one?

Cerberus

> not related to subordination

JSBձոգչ

@Robusto unlike Dutch, which just has ananas

Cerberus

Indeed.

user19161

4:39 PM

@JSBձոգչ That's a pseudopalindrome.

Matt Эллен

it's later already!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен and now it's later still

Matt Эллен

ack! time is getting away from me

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

time is marching on

Cerberus

Freeze it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:40 PM

and time is still marching on

Cerberus

I need sleep and a drink.

Matt Эллен

I have a bed and vodka...

Cerberus

Good for you.

Matt Эллен

If you'd like to come over

Cerberus

Just don't smoke in bed.

Matt Эллен

4:40 PM

never!

Cerberus

Vodka + cigarette + bed + falling asleep = big fire.

user19161

@Cerberus Or a sleep and drink.

Cerberus

Or that.

MετάEd

@WillHunting Thanks.

tchrist

@Cerberus Lord Dunsany’s “Where the Tides Ebb and Flow” becomes in Spanish “Donde suben y bajan las mareas”, where clearly we have the VS pattern following donde, and where it is not reflexive at all. It is a where thing, I keep telling you. It could have been in English “Where ebb and flow the tides”.

Cerberus

4:45 PM

It's just that you earlier example proved nothing, and you wouldn't admit it.

By the way, it is probably just an adverbial thing.

Replace where with there and then, and see what you get.

Or maybe only with where and there?

tchrist

> He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years, and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer; and words unheard were spoken then of folk of Men and Elven-kin, beyond the world were visions showed forbid to those that dwell therein.

Lotsa VS ordering there.

Poetic diction, perhaps.

Cerberus

@tchrist I see two?

Fall the counting years and reigns the Elder King.

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

In Dutch and German, this happens with al initial constituents...

tchrist

He uses where-inversion much more in The Silmarillion than he does in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, where it most often appears only in poetry.

> ... and away on the edge of sight a dark line, where marched the southernmost ranks of the Misty Mountains.

That would sound terrible in SV order.

Cerberus

4:51 PM

There marched the ranks of the Dúnedain.

tchrist

I hadn’t look for there/then/thence/whence yet.

> But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.

Cerberus

Thus ended his reign.

tchrist

Yes.

Anastrophe.

Cerberus

So be it.

tchrist

Although that one is subjunctive.

Or at least, modally marked, if you prefer.

Cerberus

4:55 PM

'Tis.

Inversion just happens.

Do what it wills, it does.

tchrist

@Cerberus I wish you would give that as an answer to the ESLlers with their pernicious inversion questions.

Cerberus

Now I'm having a déjà-vu.

tchrist

> till I find those fair ones, where the fate is hid / of the folk of Elfland and their fortune locked, / where alone now lies the light divine.

RegDwighт

Komm, Jüt!

tchrist

> Widsith, where occurs the line Wada Haelsingum, sc. Wada [weold]

user19161

4:59 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, now that I have attained 24k, I may retire from ELU. QED.

tchrist

> and lands he loved where lay his sire

Cerberus

Again?

MετάEd

A leading evangelical leader who is close to Santorum and asked not to be identified

tchrist

Immolate immolate immolate!

Cerberus

@MετάEd A name-dropper, probably, who is not in fact close to him.

tchrist

5:00 PM

> where paved with flowers are floor and path.

Cerberus

But what good is anonymous name-dropping?

Perhaps he wanted sexual favours from the journalist.

tchrist

> ... whence thrusteth thin in threadlike jets / newborn Narog, nineteen fathoms / o'er a flickering force falls in wonder, / and a glimmering goblet with glass-lucent / fountains fills he by his freshets carven / in the cool bosom of the crystal stones.

Thus proving once again that it’s best to read poetry while standing on one’s head.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd So why do you keep posting things like that? Is there a joke I'm missing?

tchrist

@Cerberus Nameless names are dropped no more than faithless faith or shoreless shore.

MετάEd

Campaign for "santorum" neologism

In May 2003, the columnist and gay rights activist Dan Savage held a contest among his readers to create a definition for the word "santorum" Savage announced the winning entry, which defined "santorum" as "the frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex." He created a web site, spreadingsantorum.com (and santorum.com), to promote the definition, which became a prominent search result for Santorum's name on several web search engines. In 2010 Savage offered to take the site down if Santorum donated US$5 million to Freedom to Marry, a group advoca...

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I hope that answers your question.

Matt Эллен

5:06 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 replace Santorum with "ejaculate and lubricant"

or something like that

oh, right, and faecal matter

not ejaculate, that would be unsafe

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

okay. I thought it was that. But some of them don't parse well.

tchrist

Santorum, whose festering fecal frothy foam drips pond’rous rich with lube and loam.

I really need to work whence thrusteth thin in threadlike jets into that.

ColorfulTrauma

Hi Will. We meet again.

Mitch

Holy crap, I'm eating lunch. Stop it.

@ColorfulTrauma it has come to this

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma Did we talk before?

user19161

5:19 PM

@Mitch I have reached 24k! Though some posts may get deleted and it will drop...

Mitch

He obviously has met you. Maybe you didn't meet him.

ColorfulTrauma

@WIllHunting: We sure did before I changed my username.

In the Math chat by the way.

Mitch

@WillHunting I've noticed that 'someone' has been seriously/serially upvoting me. suspicions aroused

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma Oh you are P***** K***!!!

Mitch

yes, I've been upvoting you but trying to be discreet about it. Like not telling everyone about it

ColorfulTrauma

5:20 PM

@WillHunting: You stalk well. Congo

user19161

@Mitch Well, my methods are well-known and not "against the rules".

Mitch

argh...plan foiled again!

ColorfulTrauma

How did you?!

Mitch

@WillHunting there not against the rules until you reach the count threshold. Then they're against the rules.

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma I know everything about everyone, I just pretend not to.

MετάEd

5:22 PM

@KitFox "Tell me why the stars do shine / Tell me why the ivy twines? / Tell me why the sky's so blue / And I will tell you why I love you. / Nuclear fusion makes stars to shine / Phototropism the ivy twine / Rayleigh diffraction the sky so blue / You make them beautiful, that's why I love you."

ColorfulTrauma

@WillHunting: Admirable...

tchrist

@Mitch While eating lunch he cries “Stop it! I’m chewing food, you’re talking shit!”

KitFox

@MετάEd D'aww.

Mitch

@tchrist it all goes to the same place eventually.

user19161

@Mitch Well, a few a day is fine for an infinite period of time. It's just rewarding a good user in a controlled manner, the way I see it.

ColorfulTrauma

5:24 PM

@WillHunting: Oh BTW --- You managed to get the stars incorrect.

user19161

By the way @ColorfulTrauma who is the guy in your pic?

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma Which stars?

tchrist

@Mitch Suppositorily.

ColorfulTrauma

@WillHunting: It's a moderator on the Ubuntu site. We all switched our Gravatar to celebrate their birthday.

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma I know Oli, but is that really a pic of him?

ColorfulTrauma

5:26 PM

Yup, it is Oli.

MετάEd

@Robusto Well, good then.

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma I know he gives great back massages.

ColorfulTrauma

It is utterly weird how you recognized Oli through this photo and ask if it is him. ;)

Mitch

@ColorfulTrauma It is utterly weird that he recognized Oli through his great back massages.

tchrist

@WillHunting No flirting in this chat.

user19161

5:29 PM

@tchrist It's true, Oli said it himself in his moderator election speech!!!

user19161

@tchrist Also, you seem to have an answer on my spelling question. If you do you should post an answer. I will delete it if there is no answer in a day or so.

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma I avoid using other people's names and pics if it is a real person unless it is a star. I don't want to be seen as impersonating others.

tchrist

@WillHunting Who am I, Atlas?

ColorfulTrauma

@WIllHunting: I changed my Gravatar back... but unfortunately this damned thing takes a lot of time to update.

user19161

looks up Atlas

user19161

5:31 PM

@ColorfulTrauma Yes, sometimes a whole day.

tchrist

It’s connected to pennies and pence.

user19161

Oh I read that as p***s at first.

ColorfulTrauma

@WIllHunting: Me too...

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma You are a minor, don't get too involved in this.

ColorfulTrauma

@WIllHunting: SHUSH

tchrist

5:35 PM

picks: palas palus pants papas patas paths pavis pedes peels peeps penes penis pilus pious plaas plebs pneus polis polos porus press priss prius props pross psoas pubes pubis pulls pyrus pyxis.

Mitch

@WillHunting pieces? pens? pencils? peonies? ponies?

ColorfulTrauma

C'mon guys, it's an easy guess: he read that as panes.

Mitch

Have you ever read "Ella Minnow Pea"?

Anyone?

tchrist

And don’t forget Paris. We’ll always have Paris.

Mitch

Bueller?

user19161

5:37 PM

It is interesting that two answers may be essentially the same but one gets many more votes than the other because it is better in a trivial way.

Mitch

Anyone?

tchrist

And POTUS, natch.

Mitch

LIke it's spelled correctly.

user19161

Matt seriously spelled Bangkok as Bangcock, seriously.

ColorfulTrauma

It is interesting that two answers may be essentially the same but one gets many more votes than the other because it is better in a trivial way.

tchrist

5:38 PM

@WillHunting That it might go better with Mashers, I imagine.

Mitch

SO it's an eplistolary novel, each succeeding letter is written with one (or more) letters not allowed. BUt it does it in a way essential to the plot.

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma Did you just parrot me?

ColorfulTrauma

Note: that's no plagiarism because I spelled "essentially" correct.

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting we all make mistakes!

Mitch

IT also DOesn't allow capitalizing the first two letters of words.

user19161

5:38 PM

@MattЭллен Yes, yes. I was just really surprised!

Matt Эллен

damn those IT folks. always messing with our fun

Mitch

@WillHunting I'm really surprised because I don't see the difference at all.

user19161

@ColorfulTrauma So you see, maybe you get 10 votes for that because you spelled correctly and I get 1.

user19161

@Mitch Well, yes, that is a famous location for such activities, though I have not participated in any of them.

ColorfulTrauma

@WIllHunting: But I posted it first so I actually deserve it. ;D

Gbye

tchrist

5:49 PM

More supercollided bikeshedding.

I vote for lime and lilac.

cornbread ninja

morning

I ♥ ls -laFR

@Mitch HA!

user19161

@tchrist Unfortunately, my answer is far from the top, which means I won't benefit too much.

user19161

Ran out of votes for today already, been giving too many presents...

MετάEd

@cornbreadninja Mornin.

user19161

Whoa, the past two questions got downvoted so fast!

user19161

6:03 PM

@MετάEd Morning. Hehe.

cornbread ninja

@MετάEd oh, it's past noon now.

user19161

@cornbreadninja Afternoon.

MετάEd

@cornbreadninja Morning (mountain time). :-)

And it's five o'clock somewhere.

user19161

It's also morning here, 2 am.

cornbread ninja

@WillHunting how is Saturday looking?

user19161

6:10 PM

@cornbreadninja Oh no, I forgot to give out Rebecca Black's Friday song!

user19161

►

cornbread ninja

@WillHunting thanks!

obeys song and gets down

this is lovely

ciladesign.com/sites/typemedia/typecooker.html

Matt Эллен

bange?

cornbread ninja

@MattЭллен it helps to design type with nonsense words.

Matt Эллен

I see! Thanks :)

cornbread ninja

6:14 PM

:D

user19161

The past three questions are at -1 and all answered by me, LOL.

cornbread ninja

I follow this lady on twitter, and she was making and posting a TypeCooker recipe per day for a while. I'm not sure if some of her words are Swiss, but some were funny.

Here are the photos flickr.com/photos/ninastoessinger/sets/72157629933739982

user19161

@matt The guy in @corn pic looks like you ha!

Matt Эллен

hmmmm. No.

note the distinct difference in skin colour ;)

cornbread ninja

:D

user19161

6:23 PM

@MattЭллен What difference? Did you just get a sexy tan?

Matt Эллен

@WillHunting (green)

user19161

@MattЭллен Geezis.

Matt Эллен

IRL I am particularly pasty at the moment, due to autumn fog and little sun

Mitch

@cornbreadninja at least -someone- appreciates it. as to your latest avatar, I never really imagined you like that.

@MattЭллен It's all down hill from here. Wait...northern or southern hemisphere?

also, is 'it's all downhill from here' a good thing or a bad thing?

cornbread ninja

@Mitch I'm sorry.

Matt Эллен

6:26 PM

@Mitch Northern

Mitch

@cornbreadninja As well you should be.

@MattЭллен downhill is good on 'this' side of the equator, bad on the other, which ever side you're on.

cornbread ninja

@Mitch ._.

Matt Эллен

OK...

Mitch

@cornbreadninja what is it you're sorry about again? Probably lots of things. What you said to your mother that time. Cutting off the lady getting off the bus (really, no excuse for that).

Your mom however...she wasn't exactly asking for it but... well, it's complicated.

cornbread ninja

@Mitch that time I stole some candy

Mitch

6:30 PM

@cornbreadninja exactly. just because someone dared you to do it is no excuse. worse thing is, you probably didn't like that kind. I hate dares like that

user19161

6:59 PM

Hello @barrie!

Jonas Stein

@tchrist Ok then i will try to correct it. Thank you.

Robusto

7:57 PM

@MattЭллен You mean you're pasty even for an Englishman? I don't think Crayola has a color that white in their crayon box.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…