English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

3:00 PM

@Cerberus That is not the point. The point is that a widely installed program had a known flaw and a patch available, but people like you who say "it's too inconvenient" get infected.

Cerberus

I feel that the primary source of malware is the gates, and I choose to fortify those well. Once it's in, then it can do what it wants—but nothing ever does get in.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus bill gates?

Matt Эллен

yes. it's owned by Oracle and they use it to surreptitiously install an Oracle DB onto your computer then sue you for copyright infringement

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not at all. I didn't get infected.

@RegDwighт Haha. I suppose.

tchrist

@RegDwighт Ding ding ding ding. Give that man a prize, ladies and gentleman.

Cerberus

3:01 PM

But no, I meant the Internet.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You're just lucky that this was a relatively unsophisticated attack, and that they didn't, eg, first compromise the newspaper website through sql injection so that a trusted script was delivering the attack instead of an untrusted one. It happens all the time.

Cerberus

Noscript protects against XSS and a host of such tricks...

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен I am pretty sure somewhere in Oracle's binary is a string of bits that converted to MIDI plays a note from a copyrighted song. I'm not afraid.

Cerberus

And Adblock blocks known malware domains.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It doesn't have to be XSS.

Cerberus

3:02 PM

And I have Java disabled.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That's not the point

RegDwighт

And I have Java [long pause] disabled.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If I have been lucky for 10 years without anti-virus software installed and without regular updates, then that's fine. Call it what you will, I like it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You just refuse to see the utility in having up-to-date software, no matter how many times it's shown that people with out-of-date software get infected.

@Cerberus yes. lucky. that's all.

tchrist

@RegDwighт Your paws are especially long today. Have you considered getting a pedicure?

Cerberus

3:04 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You are generalising and considering my situation.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then being lucky apparently works for me, so I'll stick to that.

RegDwighт

@tchrist pedicure is for pedobears.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You are trying to tell people not to update their software. That is categorically bad advice.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт I thought you had talons

Cerberus

I'm just telling them to reconsider it, if the cure is worse than the disease.

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен I used to, but I only have taloffs now.

Matt Эллен

3:05 PM

damnit, I step away for a glass of water and come back to have my pun stolen by tchrist.

Cerberus

And I don't think it's that important anyway, even if it is a good thing for many people.

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен welcome to the world of tomorrow!

Matt Эллен

I hate it! I want to go back to yesterday!

Cerberus

But, @ChairOTP, as Mr Shiny says, it may be good for you to keep updating Windows, depending on how you use your computer.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 By the way, my father does all the common things, like updating stuff and running a live anti-virus program, and yet he still gets viruses.

And it's no big deal, but still annoying.

ChairOTP

@Cerberus I do update it, but it's annoying sometimes, when it's really late and I have to go to bed, and it says "don't turn off your computer..." or whatever it says.

tchrist

3:07 PM

@Cerberus That isn’t true: it only takes a single update to Windows to fix it forever. We call it wiping the disk and installing Unix.

Cerberus

So it doesn't help that much for everyone.

@tchrist Yay! If only everything were compatible with Linux, I would switch this instant.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Is he downloading random files of dubious origin? Clicking on attachments in emails?

RegDwighт

@Cerberus even Linux is not compatible with Linux.

Cerberus

But I want to use software on my PC, so I want it to be compatible.

@RegDwighт No?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Absolutely.

Like most people.

RegDwighт

Everything is broken, and it takes seven sysadmins and five hours to tell me that it can't be fixed.

tchrist

3:09 PM

This is also like the old puzzle of how often to defrag a SysV filesystem. The answer is just once, by reformatting as BSD.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Human engineering or just people installing random stuff is like 99 % of all malware, I believe.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes, but that doesn't mean that malware doesn't also spread through other means. like drive-by downloads.

Matt Эллен

Or licking the touch screen

ChairOTP

@MattЭллен wth?

Cerberus

I do also install random software, but I check out its background first, and I always run at least a hask check of everything through Virus Total, with an automated hash-checker/uploader.

Robusto

3:10 PM

@Cerberus Company directive. I can't turn them off.

Matt Эллен

Nov 9 at 16:37, by Cerberus

Which is done by licking my touch screen very intently.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ChairOTP If that bothers you, just set it to download updates but not install, then install them the next day when you turn on the machine. or when it's convenient, but at least sometime.

Robusto

This one made me run chkdisk

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto And update did that?

I had like 30 updates today, no chkdsks

Robusto

Yep.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:11 PM

Maybe your hdd is failing

ChairOTP

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It happens to be that I'm not really good at that, or maybe I'm just ignorant, so I don't know how to do that.

Robusto

It found a few problems, nothing major.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Indeed not, but if my father is still exposed to, let's say, 10 percentage points through his own stupidity, then all the annoyance incurred by reducing it by another .5 p.p. may not be worth it. It's hard to say, and it may depend on the user.

@Robusto Poor you! But on a work computer, I can understand.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ChairOTP Start->control panel->Windows Updates->Change Settings->"Download updates but let me choose when to install them"

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yeah, that's why I always have a cold.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:13 PM

@Robusto It shouldn't find any problems

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Good.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'd do a backup if I were you

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Awwww. Doggy sneezes are funny :D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But the point is to actually install them.

Cerberus

atchoooo

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:13 PM

Not defer them forever.

Matt Эллен

hehehe

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's a laptop. What do I back up to?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But deferring them already reduces the nuisance level by at least 60 %!

ChairOTP

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh thanks, I usually don't mess with anything that i don't know, once I ended up screwing up a computer I have no idea how.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Don't you feel that people in this day and age focus too much on the benefits of increased security, and less on the down-side?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:16 PM

@Robusto I dunno. burn a DVD? fill up a Dropbox acct?

tchrist

The Prince is gifted with a Yorkshire dwarf with prostate problems for his birthday.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Cerb: the so-called "downside" you keep referring to is one or two reboots per month.

I am not at all exaggerating.

Cerberus

I am talking about airport scanners, fathers no longer allowed on the playground, terrorist witch hunts, paedophile witch hunts...

Cameras everywhere...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yes, those are all a different story though.

Cerberus

Internet records...

Matt Эллен

3:17 PM

upskirt photographs

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 All part of the same Zeitgeist.

@MattЭллен Yay!

Matt Эллен

luckily, I'm not wearing a skirt

Cerberus

By the way, is it weird that I downloaded a mod that makes the main female character in Dragon Age better looking?

She's really hot now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Not at all part of the "your software is known to be vulnerable to automated attacks" zeitgeist. There is measurable benefit to having up-to-date software. There is no measurable benefit to making airport users take off their shoes.

@MattЭллен Let me guess: it's called a kilt?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus seems OK to me

Cerberus

3:18 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't understand your first sentence.

@MattЭллен Phew.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 oh, no, I'm carrying a sidearm. You know the rules...

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's a work computer. I back up my important stuff to a thumb drive, but other than that ... not my problem.

Cerberus

Good.

tchrist

Semiannual reboots are an execrable failure of your power grid. Anything more frequent is a sign that someone needs to consider an assisted-living situation, since life is clearly too hard for them on their own.

Robusto

@MattЭллен All arms are sidearms. Otherwise they would be frontarms or backarms, which would look weird.

3

Cerberus

3:20 PM

@tchrist Que?

tchrist

se muda

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You are equating an emphasis on computer security with the hysteria over terrorism or pedophiles. They are in completely different leagues.

Cerberus

I used to reboot about once every so many weeks, but it turned out I could save about € 18 monthly by turning my computer off when I'm not using it...

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I see them as part of the same Zeitgeist.

People cannot accept risks.

Robusto

@Cerberus What is your computer powered by? Diesel?

Cerberus

If only! That would be much cheaper.

RegDwighт

3:22 PM

@Robusto ARM9 is not a sidearm.

QED.

Cerberus

My computer uses about 120W.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But they are totally different! updating your software costs nothing and protects you from real risks. Airport security costs millions and doesn't protect you from anything. How is that at all comparable?

Cerberus

That's 24 * 0.120 kWh per day.

Times 30 for a month.

Robusto

An armature is a spool for winding up long arms when you're not using them.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus turn the damn thing off for a change.

Cerberus

3:22 PM

Times € 0.25 per kWh.

@RegDwighт I do now.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus if that doesn't teach you anything, nothing will. So what's your complaint? That you're too rich?

Cerberus

So 24 * 0.120 * 30 * 0.25 = € 21.60 monthly.

That's what it costs to have my PC always on, with the monitor switched off.

RegDwighт

At least it keeps you warm.

Cerberus

So I try to turn it off whenever I'm not using it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So considering that you already reboot your machine frequently, I don't see how installing updates could possibly inconvenience you further.

Cerberus

3:24 PM

@RegDwighт Yeah, I may get a tiny amount back through less heating. But it's very inefficient heating, and gas is much cheaper.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What if the update decided to replace some kind of system driver that I once replaced? Or notepad.exe?

I have had an update cause some minor inconvenience once, and it was very hard to track down.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You're not supposed to replace notepad.exe or system drivers. 99.999% of users never do that. Those updates would repair their broken computers in those cases.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Updating software costs time and annoyance. And airport security might deter bomb makers, who knows?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't care. I don't want an update screwing up my set up.

I had to replace notepad.exe, because it was the only way to reliably get all my text-editing commands to open files in Notepad++.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It doesn't. That is to say, x-raying packages and metal detectors do deter people to some degree. But forcing people to take off shoes, or to submit to invasive pat-downs or nude-body scans does nothing to help security.

Cerberus

You can't be sure that it doesn't.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Actually, I can. I've seen demonstrations in weaknesses in airport security which prove it.

Cerberus

3:28 PM

And nude body scans provide added benefits to security guards.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Of course it's weak.

Doesn't mean it has no effect at all.

Johan Larsson

Is it ok to ask questions about how to translate stuff to English here? On reading the description I guess it is not but asking your opinion any way

Matt Эллен

Well, of course. They're all peeping toms

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Hmm probably not, but you can always ask in chat?

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson direct translation is off topic.

oh, yes you can ask here, but not there

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus does cost/benefit ratio mean anything to you? Please don't try to argue that nude body scans are beneficial on the basis of a mentally-disabled terrorist will no longer be able to get a non-functional home-made bomb on the plane.

Johan Larsson

3:30 PM

@Cerberus Yes that is true, problem is all urls with chat in them are blocked at work

Cerberus

> does cost/benefit ratio mean anything to you?

RegDwighт

Apr 3 at 14:53, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

If you describe the phrase you are looking for in English, and then ask for a shorter/idiomatic way to say that, that's a phrase-request. After you do that, you can still mention the exact equivalent in another language, but the key is that the question must still work with that bit removed.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Hmm use a VPN?

Johan Larsson

I sometimes have to write manuals for technical stuff and it can be quite agonizing trying to word it correctly in English

Matt Эллен

it means the ratio of cost to benefit. you want a low cost benefit ratio, or a high benefit/cost ratio

Cerberus

3:31 PM

@MattЭллен I know what it means, thank you.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh, well then. my work here is done.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus Yeah, or I can bring my laptop and use my phone as modem. Glad to hear that asking in chat is considered ok!

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I see a dirty spot over there.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus spits and shines

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson It is! As long as it's not incessant, hehe. And there might not always be someone here who's in the mood.

@MattЭллен Better.

Johan Larsson

3:34 PM

googling incessant

Cerberus

Hehe.

Latin cessare = to cease. In- = un-.

Johan Larsson

Yes of course I understand and respect that, have nothing to translate at the moment

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson oxforddictionaries.com <- pretty good and fewer obtrusive ads than dictionary.com

RegDwighт

Johan Larsson

@MattЭллен Bookmarked, ty

Matt Эллен

3:35 PM

no probs :)

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Too bad!

Are you Swedish?

Norwegian?

Ah, Swedish.

I can't really tell the languages apart...

Could Johan Larsson be a Norwegian name, on the face of it?

Matt Эллен

probably. isn't Norwegian like Swedish with a sock in your mouth?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Let's just agree to disagree. You encourage inexperienced users to enable all updates and anti-virus software, and I'm fine with that.

@MattЭллен That is also my impression.

But then there are Nynorsk and Bokmål...

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus It could be but it is a very common name in Sweden whilst if it was Norwegian I would suspect it was due to immigration in the past

Cerberus

Ahh OK.

@JohanLarsson What would be the normal Norwegian equivalent?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:39 PM

@Cerberus Don't put words in my mouth! I don't usually recommend anti-virus programs.

Johan Larsson

But Swedish and Norwegian are very similar, it is easier to understand many Norwegian dialects than many Swedish

Cerberus

All right.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why not, actually?

Johan Larsson

@MattЭллен That is Danish

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Because they cost too much, impact performance too much, and do too little.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Hmm funny. I do find standard German easier to understand than many Dutch dialects, but most German dialects are harder.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:40 PM

The only one I would tentatively recommend is the free one MS gives away. At least it's free.

Matt Эллен

@JohanLarsson oh! My mistake. I'm just poorly recalling satwcomic.com

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm. I see.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus I think they would spell it Johann

Cerberus

But most people use free ones.

@JohanLarsson Hmm the German way?

Johan Larsson

Top 10 common Norwegian male names:
1. Jonas <-- Same in Swedish
2. Mathias (Matias) <-- Same in Swedish, there are variants
3. Alexander (Aleksander) <-- Same in Swedish
4. Andreas <-- Same in Swedish
5. Elias <-- Same in Swedish
6. Kristian <-- Same in Swedish
7. Sebastian <-- Same in Swedish
8. Markus (Marcus)
9. Sander <-- Never heard of a Swede named that
10. Tobias <-- Same in Swedish

Cerberus

3:42 PM

Ah!

Do you also have a Swedish top 10 for us?

Johan Larsson

Common Swedish names (In Swedish, but probably parsable for language xperts)

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson And are those the names of all living Nowegians, or only names given last year?

@JohanLarsson Funny, those lists are quite different.

I wonder whether we have such a list for Dutch names.

Johan Larsson

Source Norwegian names looks like it names given 2006

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Are those including middle names?

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus I think so

Cerberus

3:46 PM

Because those numbers seem a bit high for first names...

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus lol, I'm gonna be late for work :) lemme check

RegDwighт

The top two ones in Germany are Alexander and Maximillian. Have been for decades.

Cerberus

Baby names or existing names?

RegDwighт

Freshly handed out names.

Johan Larsson

From what I could extract out of the Wikipedia article it is given names

Matt Эллен

3:47 PM

England
-----------
1 HARRY
2 OLIVER
3 JACK
4 ALFIE
5 CHARLIE
6 THOMAS
7 JACOB
8 JAMES
9 JOSHUA
10 WILLIAM

Johan Larsson

On funny aside about Sweden and names, there is this feminist party that has ~3% of the votes that want to make all names gender neutral. So that you can name a girl Harry for example

Matt Эллен

Scotland
-----------
1 Jack
2 Lewis
3 James
4 Logan
5 Ethan
6 Daniel
7 Ryan
8 Alexander
9 Harry
10 Aaron

RegDwighт

@JohanLarsson you can't do that already?

What a backwards country.

Johan Larsson

@RegDwighт joke?

RegDwighт

No.

ChairOTP

3:50 PM

@RegDwighт What father would like to name his daughter 'Harry' or any other male name?

RegDwighт

That is irrelevant.

KitFox

I was thinking the same thing. There are name-regulating laws?

RegDwighт

The relevant bit is that there should be no legistlation forbidding him. He is the father. Not the lawmaker.

Matt Эллен

I think social services in the UK stopped parents calling their son Adolf, not so long ago.

Johan Larsson

@RegDwighт hey what about third party?

RegDwighт

3:51 PM

I don't understand the question.

ChairOTP

We have some laws for names, but you still can name your child as you please with some exceptions.

Matt Эллен

oh, it was "Adolf Hitler"

RegDwighт

May 8 '11 at 1:09, by RegDwight

Some crazy Russkies in the 70s insisted on calling their children Спутник (Sputnik) if it was a boy, and Ракета (Rocket) if it was a girl.

KitFox

@MattЭллен There was a case here where the parents were suing a bakery for refusing to put "Happy Birthday, Adolf" on the kid's birthday cake or something.

Johan Larsson

"The relevant bit is that there should be no legistlation forbidding him. He is the father. Not the lawmaker." It should not be entirely up to him, what about the child?

Matt Эллен

3:52 PM

@KitFox my mistake, it wasn't the UK, it was the US

RegDwighт

@JohanLarsson the child is allowed to change his name.

ChairOTP

@JohanLarsson I agree with you, I dislike my name, and I'm changing it.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен That's not so bad. But Alfie??

Johan Larsson

Say someone someone want to name thier child Adolf Hitler the Pedophile?

KitFox

@MattЭллен Well, they still named their kid that. The other kids had equally disturbing names.

RegDwighт

3:52 PM

Nobody forbids you to change your name from Johan to Adolf. If they do, you live in a nazi state.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Haha silly.

Matt Эллен

Parents who name children 'Adolf Hitler' and 'Aryan Nation' claim they've wrongly lost custody of their kids

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus what why?

Cerberus

@RegDwighт It is illegal here as well.

@JohanLarsson Wanting to name your daughter Harry, I mean.

Johan Larsson

And when can the child realistically change its name, at the age of x?

@Cerberus ok

RegDwighт

3:54 PM

I mean, I would never name my child Harry, either. It sounds like vomit, and do you even realize hom many murderers by that name there have been?

Cerberus

You can always call her Harry if she is called Harriet, of course.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus Harry is short for Harriet

damnit

Cerberus

I have a friend often called Harry, whose real name is Harriët or something.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus that's the thing. People will name girls "Sasha" and nobody seems to object, and in fact it doesn't prevent them from becoming porn starts.

ChairOTP

@RegDwighт I didn't know a name could be stereotyped

Matt Эллен

3:55 PM

In the UK Harry is shirt for Henry.

Johan Larsson

@RegDwighт That is a different thing imo, and I fully agree with you on this one. Still feel it is ok with regulation of what name you give someone else

Cerberus

@RegDwighт I understand that that must be painful for you.

Matt Эллен

so Henrietta could also be called Harry

Cerberus

@MattЭллен It is normally a male name here, Harry.

KitFox

I'm so confused. There are really laws that govern what you can name your child?

ChairOTP

3:56 PM

@KitFox Yes

Cerberus

Yes?

KitFox

What if your kid has a sex change operation? Do they get fined?

Thrown in jail?

Cerberus

You can change your name.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox not sure about the UK. I've not tested it.

Cerberus

But you need to go to court, and need to have a good reason.

KitFox

3:57 PM

What a stupid, stupid rule.

ChairOTP

@KitFox It is stated that the name has nothing to do with the gender of the person as well.

RegDwighт

@KitFox I am pretty certain you can't name your child "fridge", not even in Africa where names such as "goodluck" are rather common.

KitFox

But you can't name a girl "Harry"?

Cerberus

It is done to prevent parents from calling their children Pieceofshit or something.

I think Harry for a girl would be allowed here.

KitFox

Uh. Well, I guess we can do that here.

Cerberus

3:57 PM

Not sure.

ChairOTP

@Cerberus Fortunately not here, you can change your name before you are 18 with a permission from your parents, or after you're 18 on your own.

Cerberus

Hmm.

KitFox

Moon Unit and Apple and Espn and all.

Cerberus

Haha yes, Moon Unit.

Stupid.

RegDwighт

Sailor Moon Unit.

I like.

Cerberus

3:58 PM

Someone once made me believe his name was indeed Moon Unit.

Said he had hippie parents.

KitFox

@Cerberus You know there is a Moon Unit, right?

RegDwighт

Aug 6 at 14:32, by RegDwight АΑA

@tchrist so that one time, I met one Aaron Marshall, who was with Microsoft, and he gave me his email, and it was amarsh@microsoft.com. Little did he know that "am Arsch" is German for "my ass".

Matt Эллен

And let's not forget: Kit's a boy's name

ChairOTP

I remember this year some parents called her daughter "Santafecita" after the soccer team Santafé won.

Cerberus

@KitFox I do now, but I didn't know at the time.

KitFox

3:59 PM

@MattЭллен Nuh-uh.

Cerberus

@ChairOTP speechless

Matt Эллен

@KitFox I know no girls called Kit and more than one boy.

Well, present company excepted, of course

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…