English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

15:00

that's not arbitrary. you're a human (if I misrepresent please pardon my speciesism).

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's also dangerous.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Practically speaking, I wouldn't eat human, because I have lots of choices available to me. But if I were, eg, trapped in the mountains with no food and no hope of rescue and one of my colleagues died of exposure? what does he need that protein for?

Mitch

@MετάEd yeah, they fight back.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd well, let's ignore that argument for now.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes..too hypothetical.

MετάEd

15:01

Kuru (disease)

Kuru is an incurable degenerative neurological disorder that is a type of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy, caused by a prion found in humans. The term "kuru" derives from the Fore word "kuria/guria" ("to shake"), a reference to the body tremors that are a classic symptom of the disease; it is also known among the Fore as the laughing sickness due to the pathologic bursts of laughter people would display when afflicted with the disease. It is now widely accepted that Kuru was transmitted among members of the Fore tribe of Papua New Guinea via cannibalism. History Kuru was firs...

Not so hypothetical.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch haha, no, because the danger is from poisoning, and that isn't usually the reason people give for being opposed to cannibalism.

Mitch

@MετάEd yuck. well-done from now on!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OMG you're behind the Big Gulp conspiracy, to plow the populace with hyper sugarfied drinks to fatten them up, well marbled tissue..._for harvesting_.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If eating humans is unsafe, then you shouldn't do it. But that doesn't mean it's unethical.

MετάEd

@Mitch No, actually "normal sterilization procedures such as boiling or irradiating materials fail to render prions non-infective."

user19161

There are times in history when men ate dead men when there is no food.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:05

@Mitch My crack teams of chefs are working in hospitals, ready to butcher all of those nicely marbled asses when their owners die of diabetic-related illnesses.

Matt Эллен

What makes it unethical is that it reduces humans to food. Food is not something you give respect to. Food is what you eat.

Mitch

@MετάEd changes order to celery

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You said it was taboo. Unethical is a different thing. You're trying to change the argument.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен I disagree that humans are automatically reduced to food.

Mitch

@JasperLoy Many? I think that's just stories.

Matt Эллен

15:06

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 if you are eating them, you can hardly say otherwise

user19161

@Mitch I think it is on Wikipedia.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd well, it's both

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 diabetes gives it a special flavor.

@MετάEd isn't taboo just extreme unethical...ness.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен No. I am saying that a living human is most definitely not food. But a dead one may be. I do not feel that dead bodies are particularly different than other non-living things. eg vacuum cleaners.

Mitch

@JasperLoy hm..a cannibalism article on wikipedia..I trust that as much as an Oprah article on quantum electrodynamics.

Matt Эллен

15:08

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and yet I imagine if some started to insult a dead relative of yours you'd have something to say about it.

Mitch

Nope, I trust that as much as an Feynman article on getting you man to talk about his feelings.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

dont' get me wrong though. I don't eat humans, don't plan to, and find the idea kinda gross. But that's because I've been indoctrinated to think that.

Mitch

Nope, I trust that as much as a wiki article on something nobody really knows anything about

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Insulting a person is different than just eating meat.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You're just saying that.

I'm not turning my back to you.

user19161

15:09

@Mitch I trust Wikipedia as much as I trust paper books which can be crap too.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "Insulting a person is different than eating their arm." Yes, I agree with that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch That's the yummiest part! prepares salt and pepper shakers

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 why a person? they're dead aren't they? not a person any more.

Mitch

@JasperLoy depends on the article and book and the author, etc.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 zing!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен No, I'm drawing a distinction between the person that was, and the dead body which is no longer relevant

user19161

15:10

@Mitch You see, when one reads a book one does not bother checking the references to make sure everything is right. Wikipedia also provides references and it is how articles there are written.

MετάEd

@Mitch Taboo is what we don't do: it is forbidden. Not all things are forbidden because they are considered ethically wrong.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So, eg, I would say that if a person dies, and you go and piss on their corpse as an insult, you are insulting the person by desecrating the body. But if you simply ate the body, that is totally different.

Mitch

OK. what about smiling? is it a fear/defense mechanism or humor response or what?

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and I do not. eating the body reduces the person to food. That person is now food to you. you have downgraded them

degraded them

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 More importantly, you're insulting the family. More importantly because they are the ones who will take offense. And don't you suppose they will feel the same if you eat the body instead of insulting it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:12

@MattЭллен No. I reduced their body to food. Not their personhood.

Mitch

@MετάEd I was just saying that taboo is an extreme form of reaction to ethically wrong things. 10 commandments are listing taboos, but there are also all the lesser venal sins.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 there is no person without a body

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Well, yes, they would probably be offended by the eating of the body. But that's arbitrary.

MετάEd

@Mitch Right, and I was just disagreeing.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 people still attach feelings to bodies.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:13

@MattЭллен No, there is no person without consciousness.

@Mitch that doesn't mean it's not irrational or arbitrary.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 you keep saying arbitrary as if all of our rules are not arbitrary

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Arbitrary? Well, only in the sense that everything is arbitrary when you look at it from a universal point of view. It's certainly not arbitrary from the point of view of human nature. I think that's an important part of why it's taboo.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Consciousness is just an arbitrary line you've drawn

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Example: I think it's silly that we bury humans in the ground in ornate boxes which are often sealed against rotting. Prior to burial the bodies are embalmed with chemicals to prevent decomposition. What is the point of all of this?

Mitch

there all sorts of strictly irrational things that are pretty good ideas. Like not eating people!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:15

@MattЭллен I guess? But that's the line that best separates humans from animals. Otherwise how are we different from monkeys, or ants?

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 genetics? intelligence? haircuts?

there are so many things that make us different to animals

self awareness is not one of them

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd No, I mean it's arbitrary in that it's widely considered okay to eat, eg, a cow, as long as it is killed humanely. Lots of cultures have concepts of treating food animals respectfully. But for some reason pretty much nobody has a notion of respectfully eating a human. It would be an automatic insult.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Argh! OK we won't bury you. We'll sit your body on the curb until the crows and flies finish you off. And a note tied around your neck saying "leave me alone, I'm being rational."

Also, this death thing? totally an arbitrary line. great chain of being and all that. Make me one with everything!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch Actually, I plan to donate my organs and other useful parts, if any are worth having, and then have my body sent to the medical school where students can take it apart and learn from it. Then it can be cremated. I'd like it if the ashes could be put to use as fertilizer or something.

Mitch

back to smiling..because I'm hold an argument with @KitFox who is not here to defend herself. There was a study done....

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:18

@MattЭллен okay, I don't have a good term for it, but the whole package of self-awareness, intelligence, etc. the stuff that goes on in our brains which does not appear to go on at the same level in most animal brains.

Mitch

comparing reactions to horror films in different cultures...

user19161

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They should dissect my brain to see why there is so much shit in it.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Actually that's untrue. It's true many places, but the example I posted of the disease Kuru is from a culture that ate their venerated dead.

Mitch

and in Western cultures (bear with me I'm not making this up, but I am loose with the details)...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd well, "pretty much nobody" doesn't mean "Strictly nobody".

Mitch

15:19

people's faces/reactions were filmed in reaction to horror films...

RegDwighт

0

A: Do accents still play a role in British class distinctions to the present day? How have things changed since the 1960s and Received Pronunciation?

Try doing your own homework...

Mitch

and in the west they had 'frightened' faces. and in the east...

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Them's weasel words. Your argument that we treat cows differently from people falls apart. In some cultures, we venerate cows, too. The fact is that cannibalism is not a sacred cow.

Mitch

...they had a tendency to smile. Eat that @KitFox and all you cannibals!

@JasperLoy once again, you really should see a doctor about that.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт NO U

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:20

@MετάEd My initial argument is that cannibalism should not be a sacred cow. I take the fact that some cultures agree with me as points in my favour.

RegDwighт

@MattЭллен well I tried. But I failed.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 no human culture eats other humans strictly for nutrition. It is always for ceremonial purposes, say for a funeral, or for celebration of a conflict.

user19161

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Reg calls that the Holy Cow of Moscow.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch That's fine. Because living humans should not be food, and killing humans is usually wrong.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think cannibalism is prohibited in most cultures because it mostly destroys communities. This is because it comes up against what we venerate (our family) and because it creates a disease vector. And none of that is arbitrary: it naturally follows from what it is to be human.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:24

@MετάEd The disease vector is a good argument. The veneration of dead bodies is very silly.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I did not say veneration of dead bodies. I said veneration of family.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd But the result is that the dead bodies are given some kind of status that almost nothing else has.

MετάEd

It is a fact about how our memories and emotions work that we do not cease to venerate a family member when they die. That is not people being silly: it's people being human.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Venerating/respecting their memory is one thing. But their body? it is a vessel. may as well venerate the shirt they wore.

Robusto

@Mitch Yes. I only resort to cannibalism for strictly ceremonial reasons. (Wait. Does cunnilingus count?)

MετάEd

15:26

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A vessel for what?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd their consciousness.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I read that as " points in my flavour"

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That must be why I cease to love my wife when she is asleep.

:-P

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I'm always on the lookout for ways to improve my flavour, so that when I die, there'll be a tasty meal, on me!

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There is something to be said for the temporal connection of the body before death and afterwards, such that using the dead body might flow over into thinking of bodies one similarly doesn't care for but possibly still alive.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "on me!" !

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:30

@Mitch I dunno. We're okay with organ transplant and don't usually go around thinking of people as nothing but potential donors.

Mitch

@MετάEd Exactly. Mr's argument is attempting to be rational but is only unfeeling.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh...hm...touche.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch come on. You may find it unfeeling. I could accuse you of being over emotional about it. But please point out actual flaws in my rationality.

Mitch

...my point being, @KitFox, that, not that East and west are innately different, but that smiles (and other emotional signals) are very arbitrary in humans, so yes, I'm sure ther's a submission/fear part to smiles, but it can also be used for reflecting joy or humor or blah-dee blah blah.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 organ transplants are a) only done in emergency and b) not done very often. Mealtimes are a) done whenever possible and b) necessary for everyone

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Well, I've said many times that I disagree of, eg, farming humans as a food source.

Matt Эллен

15:34

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK, and I agree that survival trumps ethics

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Rationality needs to take in -all- data. People are freaked out about cannibalism, that is reasonable data. You might (I don't know if you could) could say that retarded people are like dead people so we should harvest them. And maybe if retarded people, then pretty much anybody below average. You know, plant and cull.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен LOL. So it's still unethical to eat a dead human, even if said human wanted you to do it?

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен On the basis of "don't do that"

Matt Эллен

on the basis of Humans are not food.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:37

@Mitch There are arguments to be made in favour of sub-human status for retarded people. I won't make those arguments because I don't find them convincing and anyway it's way, way to hard to draw a line. But some cases are clear. Sometimes a human fetus develops with essentially no higher-level brain. Technically it's human. But is it a person?

@MattЭллен But peel that basis back and examine why you think that way.

Anyway, every aspect of my morality boils down to one thing: do no harm. That is the guiding principle.

So if eating people does no harm, then why not eat people.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 not a good image here.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I have - it doesn't get any baser. humans are not food. As I've said - if you start treating humans as food you start removing human beings' humanity.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It does a lot of psychic harm to a lot of people who know about it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен I disagree though. I think you can separate living people from dead bodies and still treat the former as fully human.

KitFox

@Mitch Oh your logic stings me. You are so intelligent with your weapons of intelligence. I bow before your analysis.

Mitch

15:40

@MattЭллен or more pscychologically, you start removing barriers against things that we all would prefer to have barriers for.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch It might. And for that reason I would hesitate. But the harm of "offending people" is way down on the list of harms I usually care about. I don't care zero for it. I like to be nice to people and to show them respect and have them do the same for me. I don't try to intentionally offend people, usually.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch exactly

Mitch

@KitFox No need to bow. I'm better than that!

KitFox

Oh I forgot. </ dry humor>

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The problem with your rationality is that you are failing to take facts into account such as how people naturally feel about things and people. We form attachments. Whether or not you consider that rational (and of course it's not rational), it's a fact. If you are not taking this fact into account, then it's you who are being irrational.

KitFox

15:42

Are we still arguing about Soylent Green?

It is people.

It are people?

Matt Эллен

Soylent Green is PEOPLE?!

KitFox

It's PEOPLE!

Sorry. Spoiler.

Matt Эллен

lol

Mitch

@MattЭллен Tastes like cardboard. Eck.

KitFox

>! It's people!

Mitch

15:44

@MattЭллен Don't worry. It's no one you know!

KitFox

Hmm. Isn't there some kind of spoiler markup?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd No, I do take it into account. I mentioned it before. It's just like how people form attachments to food animals. In our society, the fact that other people get upset about cannibalism is relevant. But society gets upset about atheists proclaiming that there is no god. Should I stop proclaiming that too?

Mitch

What if it is?

Matt Эллен

Anyway @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 thanks for sticking up for me in the thread about my boorish behaviour on Meta.

KitFox

I stuck up for you too!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:44

@MattЭллен hey, no prob. And if it upsets you too much, I won't eat you after you die.

Matt Эллен

Thanks to you too @KitFox!

Mitch

@KitFox it should be fg in bg color, so that you could select it to see it.

Matt Эллен

And to @Luke and @RegDwighт

RegDwighт

What?

Mitch

@MattЭллен MH is easily ...something...offended?

Matt Эллен

15:45

@RegDwighт Well, you pointed out that that thing used to be in the faq

RegDwighт

Of course.

KitFox

@Mitch He's just new.

RegDwighт

Nothing to do with you. I'm just stating facts. Showing off my mad memory skills.

Gigili

Feel free to thank me.

Mitch

@KitFox he's been at math.SE for a while, and I've seen him in ... other places (worries about showing my age...) sci.math?

Matt Эллен

15:46

@RegDwighт ok, no thanks then :D

Gigili

What thread @MattЭллен?

Matt Эллен

-8

Q: rudeness, belligerence, and dishonesty in this forum

Is it customary to frown upon gratuitous rudeness, dishonesty, and flame-warring within english.stackexchange.com? In a comment under this question on meta, this boorish and dishonest comment appeared: You're right! It's not NARQ, it's off topic: peeving disguised as a question. – Matt Эллен...

discussion

KitFox

@Mitch Well, then. I should have let loose a torrent of invective.

Matt Эллен

@Gigili Thanks! :D

KitFox

My gut reaction was "what a whiny bitch" but I thought I should step back and try to see it from his point of view.

MετάEd

15:47

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Where you go wrong is when you say it's silly that people have these attachments. People don't simply detach immediately when someone they loves dies. It's not silly: it's how humans work.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Just because they work that way doesn't mean it isn't silly.

Lots of things about humans are silly

It's silly that the testicles are on the outside.

KitFox

Like those flappy bits on men.

Jinx!

Matt Эллен

but sperm needs lower temperature than the rest of the body!

it's a feature, not a bug

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's silly that we cannot suppress our instinctual urges to eat food that evolution allowed us to refine to the point of being unhealthy.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's no more silly than testicles. They are what they are. What you are saying boils down to everything is silly. Which is to say that nothing is silly. You've made "silly" into a meaningless word.

RegDwighт

15:50

@MattЭллен Oh yeah, these 0.1 degrees difference are so helping.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен IT's a hack. The real solution is to make high-temp sperm.

RegDwighт

That, too.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт 2 degrees

MετάEd

I love that everybody immediately went to testicles.

KitFox

The realest solution is to not have sexual differentiation in the first place.

2

Matt Эллен

15:51

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 just like the universal constant, no doubt ;)

MετάEd

@KitFox That's just silly.

(Good morning)

KitFox

(Morning)

@MετάEd Is it? Is it really?

RegDwighт

@KitFox yeah yeah like I would believe you actually said that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd No. Not everything is silly. Things that evolved in ways that don't make sense from a design perspective, or have serious flaws, or things that are irrational (even if perfectly logical from some evolutionary or cultural perspective) are silly.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox but then you don't get society

KitFox

15:52

wonders just how stupid she looks wearing a scarf and a tank top

Mitch

@MετάEd Yeah, I thought earlobes, then wondered if women had them too.

KitFox

@MattЭллен Why not?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Fine. like that nerve which goes down your neck, around a bone, then back up to terminate about 1cm from where it started, even in giraffes with freakishly long necks. That's pretty silly. Obviously it's a product of evolution, which is the only tool we have. But still silly.

Mitch

@KitFox depends on the color combo. wait, no that's kinda... clears throat .. let's say audacious.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox because people just play with themselves. but for reals, that's the latest theory on why sexual reproduction evolved. because asexual reproduction is just as good at producing hardy young, however it doesn't foster cooperation.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:53

@MattЭллен Read "The Left Hand of Darkness"

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There is no design perspective.

If you want to try to do better than evolution, be my guest.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd sure there is. Humans can design things. It's one of the things that make us special.

Mitch

@MετάEd Evolution...what a crock...can't do anything right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Please. you can't seriously be saying that evolution is intrinsically perfect? That no improvement could be made with intelligent guidance?

KitFox

@MattЭллен You can have sexual reproduction without sex differentiation. Just alternate generations.

@Mitch Sort of a marbled green knit scarf and a royal blue tank with a black one layered under it. It doesn't remotely match.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

15:56

@KitFox Just claim it's on purpose.

KitFox

Well, it was sort of on purpose.

RegDwighт

Look. Some people evolved into people who call nipples nipples, other people evolved into people who call them breast warts. Evolution doesn't have a point, only a punchline.

Mitch

@KitFox ?? quit the sciency talk. how would that work? it sounds awfully like dirty old uncles.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox That's the spirit!

KitFox

I wanted my arms free for free-weights, and my neck was cold.

MετάEd

15:56

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, my point is that there is no such thing as perfection: no design against which to measure the results of evolution. Perfection assumes there is a point, a goal, something to aspire to be perfect as.

RegDwighт

In fact if you think evolution has a point, that's only because evolution made you a person that thinks it has a point.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch you could have a hermaphroditic species, where each being can variously be "male" or "female" as needed.

MετάEd

@RegDwighт Right!

KitFox

Alternation of generations

Alternation of generations (also known as alternation of phases or metagenesis) is a term primarily used to describe the life cycle of plants (taken here to mean the Archaeplastida). A multicellular sporophyte, which is diploid with 2N paired chromosomes (i.e. N pairs), alternates with a multicellular gametophyte, which is haploid with N unpaired chromosomes. A mature sporophyte produces spores by meiosis, a process which results in a reduction of the number of chromosomes by a half. Spores germinate and grow into a gametophyte. At maturity, the gametophyte produces gametes by mitosis, ...

Silly.

Mitch

@KitFox I can see it working ... with boots.not tall ones but the short leather ones with kinda wings. It says "I dare you to even -look- at me."

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I didn't get the switching generations thing.

KitFox

15:58

@MετάEd There is a goal and it is reproduction. Perpetuation of the genome.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd But there are lots of changes that could be made to human bodies that would be considered improvements. There may not be "perfection" but there is certainly "better".

Mitch

@KitFox OK I get it.

KitFox

Pretty cool, huh?

There are so many awesome ways to shuffle gene pairs...

Mitch

Or rather, I don't get it. so one generation, all cells have 2N paired chromosomes, and then the next generation has all cells with only 1N chromosomes?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox But with alternation of generations, if we were talking about animals that form societies, wouldn't the alternate generations be essentially equivalent to male/female?

KitFox

16:01

Yep. Haploid, diploid, haploid, diploid.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not necessarily.

Mitch

@KitFox mind blown

Robusto

@RegDwighт So you're saying Germans evolved using grotesque terms for nipples. Hmm.

KitFox

They could just be generic gametes, not otherwise specified.

RegDwighт

@Robusto no, I'm saying Americans evolved using French terms for grotesque.

KitFox

@Mitch Well, let's not start on Drosophila until you clean that up.

Robusto

16:03

I hear the Science Channel is going to do a show called Glial! which will feature lots of singing and dancing about neuroscience. Let's hope they make the regionals.

2

Mitch

I also don't get how with temperature differences, reptilian eggs can produce one or the other sex? (I learn all my science from movies made by Michael Crichton novels). Does that mean all cells in a reptilian body have both X and Y chromosomes, but depending on temperature at ovulation or fertilization of embryo growth, the organ structure follows the male or female path?

Robusto

So the hot lizards are female?

Matt Эллен

@Mitch I don't think they have Y chromosomes

Robusto

@MattЭллен Y not?

KitFox

@Mitch Not reptiles. Amphibians. Specifically frogs.

Matt Эллен

16:05

@Robusto because they determine their sex based on temperature, not chromosomes

RegDwighт

Kermit is not very hot, indeed.

Mitch

@KitFox yeah yeah, whatever, the green things. But really?

KitFox

Well, they absorb chemicals through their skin.

Robusto

@MattЭллен Well, fat chicks are hot temperature-wise, but not in other metrics.

Mitch

@KitFox Oh that explains ... what? skin absorption = sex change?

KitFox

16:06

So if there are lots of males producing testosterone, they can spontaneously change their sex if they absorb enough of it.

Robusto

@KitFox Have you ever known males to do anything else? It's a full-time job, fer chrissakes.

Mitch

@KitFox It just seems to me that (at least in mammals) -every- cell is sexed, right?

KitFox

A high ratio of males automagically produces females.

@Mitch That's true.

More or less.

Mitch

but not in amphibians?

and is every cell in mammals, the sex of the sex of the organism?

Robusto

I heard that rats in overcrowded environments are more likely to resort to homosexuality. I wonder if that is A) true and B) if so, some kind of innate collective response to overpopulation.

KitFox

16:09

I am not an expert on amphibians, but I know sex chromosomes work differently in different orders.

RegDwighт

TIL Maryland looks exactly like Soviet Union.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto It's the Gay Agenda. They're breeding special gay rats and sending them to scientists who will conclude that gayness is natural and thus okay.

KitFox

Drosophila, for instance, are sex differentiated, but all of them have the same two sex chromosomes.

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hawt.

KitFox

@RegDwighт Way too close to that power line.

RegDwighт

16:10

@KitFox no, I mean the architecture.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox enh, it's probably not live anymore

RegDwighт

That, um, house? Building? Thing? is the first and only valid definition of "Unamerican" I have come across.

KitFox

NO LINE IS SAFE TO TOUCH. EVER.

@RegDwighт Apartment building. Looks pretty typical to me.

Could be a hotel.

RegDwighт

Sep 25 at 13:00, by RegDwighт

And so, once again, the US was proven to be more Russian than it was ever ready to admit.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox I know. I was just making a joke about the fact that trillions of americans are without power today.

Mitch

16:14

@KitFox It just seems that the frog thing to change sex spontaneously (well, I'd give it a few days) is just so anatomically hard, rearranging .... all sorts of things, gross anatomy, cell structure differentiation between egg and/or sperm. If it were only a matter of proteins, I could see it happening.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwighт Or maybe Russia is more American than THEY wanted to admit.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh. I was reciting a PSA from my childhood.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or maybe everyone is more British than they care to admit...

KitFox

@Mitch True, and I don't really know, except that frogs are dimorphic after all. They metamorphose.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен I think everyone is more food than they care to admit :)

Mitch

16:16

Today I need a key to jokes like Jasper. I'm still trying to work out the breast wart thing.

RegDwighт

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 the difference is that on both sides, the thinking is "American > Russian". If you tell a Russian that the crap hole he lives in is perfectly fine by American standards, he will spit in your face.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwighт I dunno if I'd call that apartment a crap hole. Architecturally boring, yes.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We definitely eat more than we care to admit. I know I could have eaten more this morning.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch ... but sadly, no one was around?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You should see the front.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:18

Anyway, speaking of food, I'm going to get some lunch. Who's joining me?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 zing!!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 uhm... where are you going?

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Already ate. You coming to the party later?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox in Overlook? maybe.

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 no 'having you for dinner' jokes?

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know your game! Not a chance.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:19

@MattЭллен Matt is the winner!

Matt Эллен

yay!

MετάEd

@KitFox I think a goal is something that we impose. Evolution is all about reproduction, yes, but I don't think there has ever been anything out there that saw it as a goal, until we came along and conceptualized "goal". So a "goal" hasn't existed for most of the history of evolution. So a "goal" is really not anything to do with evolution.

RegDwighт

Joker is the name, poker is the game, we'll play right here on this bed, and then we'll bet for the biggest stakes yet — the flesh of the dead!

KitFox

Yay @Reg!

Matt Эллен

RegDwight too? I'm surrounded by cannibals.

RegDwighт

16:21

I'm channeling my brother ChrisDwight, or RedBurgh, I forget.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Evolution is about compromise and adaptation. It's completely pragmatic. It has never, is not, and never will be about perfection.

Mitch

channel = I ate him

MετάEd

Except maybe sharks.

KitFox

Yay sharks!

RegDwighт

Channel number five is when you ate Lou Bega.

Mitch

16:22

They'll eat anything!

KitFox

Speaking of interesting reproductive biology.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox I hear you know a very funny joke about sharks

KitFox

Did you know that sharks can reproduce both sexually and asexually?

@MattЭллен I do?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox you made it up, so yes :D

RegDwighт

Sharks also reproduce by ripping people apart and building all-new shark people out of the spare parts.

It's the least known fact of evolution yet. Known but to God.

DForck42

16:24

@kitfox well then i guess i can come over here

KitFox

Hiya.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Of course it's not about perfection. But that doesn't mean that as humans, we can't conceive of ways that the human body could be better-made

DForck42

@RegDwighт very interesting way to describe eating people and building biological copies using the nutrition gained from digestion

Matt Эллен

Mar 9 at 14:57, by KitFox

A Romanian shark walks into some Germans and says "hi."

KitFox

Oh, that joke.

MετάEd

16:25

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Of course we can. Again you are moving your argument. I am saying evolution is not a matter of design.

Design only comes into things when we come into things.

RegDwighт

@DForck42 you do realize that it's entirely possible, even though not very probable, that the burger you had last week had some atoms in it that used to be part of Napoleon's liver or Genghis Khan's eyebrow?

So much for non-cannibalism, @Mr.ShinyandNew安宇

MετάEd

@RegDwighт Have you calculated the probability? It might be greater than you think.

KitFox

@MattЭллен It really should have been "A Romanian shark walks into some Germans and the Germans say 'Hi!'"

RegDwighт

Sep 9 at 22:04, by ЯegDwight

Why do people always insist that I think? I'm not Descartes.

DForck42

@RegDwighт you do realize that the water you drink today could have come from my bladder at some point?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:27

@MετάEd I am not claiming evolution is a matter of design. I'm saying we can visualize an evolved creature as a sort of design, and think of how that design is flawed. Of course it isn't a "flawed design" in the strict sense. The point is that if it WERE "designed" it would clearly be a flawed one.

RegDwighт

@DForck42 that probability is actually higher due to the nature of water.

DForck42

@RegDwighт :-D

Matt Эллен

because water is a sentient lifeform that came from mars?

RegDwighт

Or its state of matter.

Mitch

@KitFox I get that joke all the way up to where it says 'A Romanian.."

KitFox

16:28

Mar 9 at 14:54, by JSBᾶngs

@RegDwightѬſ道 hai in romanian means "come here", so i can only imagine the fun you'll have if you put a bunch of germans, romanians, and a shark in a room together

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We're getting close now. If it were designed, it would clearly be flawed. It's not designed. So it doesn't make sense to talk about it as flawed. Or silly. To get to flawed, or silly, you need a Designer.

KitFox

Mar 9 at 14:44, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus Hai in German means "shark". So Germans, usually children, reply to it with a scared "where?"

RegDwighт

Also, you empty your bladder way more often than Genghis Khan picked his eyebrows.

KitFox

You don't know that.

JSBձոգչ

it's entirely possible that the great Khan had immaculately plucked eyebrows

Mitch

16:29

@KitFox OK. laughs smiles stops smiling, show no submission around sharks

RegDwighт

@KitFox As an offspring of his, I beg to differ.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Nah, I can still talk about it as flaws. a diamond isn't designed but it has flaws too.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Now you've hurt my feelings.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Only in terms of your own expections and wishes, not intrinsically.

Mitch

@RegDwighт Thanks to some very popular sailors in the 1500's we're -all- descendants of Genghis Khan.

MετάEd

16:31

So that's why it turns out that your characterization of human evolution and behavior as "silly" is nothing more or less than a characterization of yourself.

RegDwighт

@Mitch yes, but being a descendant of leprechauns totally cancels it out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd And especially when it comes to something like culture, which is relatively easier to change (than physiology): the people in the culture should be capable of reasoning about their own culture, identifying flaws, and fixing them. Granted, that's a slow process. Doesn't mean flaws aren't flaws though.

MετάEd

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You're going from "is" to "should" without any rational basis for that move.

People are what they are, not what you think they should be capable of.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MετάEd Well, there are two things. Calling biological features "silly" may be a useless characterization. But calling cultural features silly is not.

KitFox

So about that party. What ought we do that's fun?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

16:34

@MετάEd No. People are what they are, but they can also potentially be more than they currently are.

JSBձոգչ

arguably it's not possible to reason about a culture from outside a culture, since any argument that a cultural feature is good/bad/silly must itself be informed by an ethical norm which is part of the culture

KitFox

@DForck42 suggested cookies.

JSBձոգչ

at best you can call other people's culture silly, according to the standards of your own culture

Matt Эллен

@KitFox we could do a timed write. I like those

JSBձոգչ

@KitFox i like cookies

KitFox

16:34

Cookies and a timed write.

Anything else? Something Nanowrimo-ish?

JSBձոգչ

well, i'm going to lunch

that'll be a party

Matt Эллен

a party in your mouth!

JSBձոգչ

btw @Kit, any hurricanage up in your area?

Mitch

@JSBձոգչ stop it stop it all this thinking

KitFox

@JSBձոգչ No. Rain and wind, nothing stronger than a gale.

You get sleet?

JSBձոգչ

16:36

@KitFox well that's a disappointment, er, relief

we got no hurricane-related weather up here

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBձոգչ No, you can call your own culture silly. My culture is silly. Or harmful, even. There are lots of aspects of it that I disapprove of and strive to change, if only in my own household.

JSBձոգչ

much too far away

KitFox

I saw there was a lot of winter weather kicked down toward the midwest, but I couldn't remember where you were.

JSBձոգչ

it was very cold for a few days, but nothing unusual for this time of year

MετάEd

@JSBձոգչ That's right. That's what I'm saying you are doing. You are calling other people silly from your subjective perspective. Which is not at all rational or defensible: it's just you being a human being.

Which is fine. Just don't keep asking people to see how rational you are being to call others silly for not eating their dead.

KitFox

16:38

OK, well, I'll be in The Overlook if anyone wants to mosey over there.

MετάEd

moseys

RegDwighт

I gotta run.

runs

JSBձոգչ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 so... i sort of disagree, because the things that you find silly/harmful aren't really things that you yourself do, are they? but OTOH if we define "culture" so narrowly then the term kind of loses all meaning, so i agree with you in practice

anyway. off to lunch.

KitFox

Writer's Chat going on now in The Overlook. Today we party in anticipation of NaNoWriMo, and also do a timed writing exercise. Cookies. Love. And advice on doing research.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBձոգչ Well, some of them might be things I myself do, because I haven't corrected all my flaws yet. eg, embedded racism, sexism, or homophobia. I try to eliminate these whenever I encounter them in myself, but it's hard to overcome years of conditioning.

Zairja

16:46

@Cerberus Of course not! That's just the maximum age one can input when registering.

JSBձոգչ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 this is a good point.

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