English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

The first would be: while as we discussed, the Moravec and Kurzweil timelines are perhaps a tad "aspirational" -- I do think the basic scenarios they outline are plausible.

The second would be the ethical concerns they tend to raise about sentient machines, which tend towards liberal, broadly-inclusive understandings of "consciousness."

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman I sort of agree, although I would hesitate to go further than possible worthy of our consideration.

Joseph Weissman

11:15 PM

(This second I'm much more sympathetic about; I think progress in this direction is particularly urgent as we get closer to actualizing some of the wilder AI dreams.)

David Wallace

Umm, does intelligence in the machine sense imply sentience? I think not.

Joseph Weissman

I guess the basis of that is materialism, right? And it's ultimately where I think we must part way with the Singularity.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Hmm as in, a truly intelligent AI deserves human rights?

Joseph Weissman

It's a bit too pious about technology, in other words. A bit too convinced that machine "general intelligence" will somehow magically resolve all problems.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman What do you mean?

@JosephWeissman Agreed.

David Wallace

11:18 PM

What if a super-intelligent gorilla built a machine whose intelligence surpassed that of a human? Would that machine have rights that the gorilla didn't?

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman But I rather read it as "what if someone else develops a super AI that will enslave us all? Or what if one develops on its own? No, we must be first, and we must make sure it is benign!", the later of course being highly problematic.

@DavidWallace Perhaps?

@DavidWallace How is intelligence in the machine sense different from other senses?

David Wallace

Umm, no. My paradox is intended to highlight the difference between intelligence and sentience. Turing studied only the former; human rights are a consequence only of the latter.

Cerberus

Perhaps we need a definition of intelligence.

(I don't have one ready.)

Joseph Weissman

We don't need anything besides an experimental one; a good example would be "passing a Turing test."

Just in passing -- my basic concern would be the basically "apocalyptic" position that the advocates of the hypothesis tend to take.

Cerberus

And that means being able to pass as a human being?

David Wallace

11:21 PM

@Cerberus I am contending that human sentience is something that no machine will ever have; and that if you consider sentience to be part of intelligence, then I mean only that part of intelligence that does not include it.

@Cerberus Essentially, yes.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman What if there is some kind of intelligence that is very different from human intelligence and that could never pass for human? Is that impossible?

Joseph Weissman

Well, it's a bit more formal and Kantian, right? "Sentience" is proxied by a Turing trial, so that it effectively means: "to pass as a conversational partner, an intelligent 'other'"

@Cerberus certainly not; I think that's actually a really interesting point.

David Wallace

Sentience is proxied by a Turing trial? Says who?

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Then how do you define sentience? And why could a machine never acquire it? What if we simply rebuilt the exact structure of a human brain but in metal?

David Wallace

Umm, you and I would have to part ways on that. I believe that a human has parts that extend beyond the actual molecules in the physical universe. I understand you don't share this belief with me (but correct me if I am wrong).

Cerberus

11:24 PM

@JosephWeissman This is still a bit vague...at least "can't tell it apart from a human being" is a clear, measurable criterion: "pass as a conversational partner" is more problematic. Who will be the judge, and on what objective criteria?

David Wallace

Yeah, the Turing test is inherently vague.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I share your belief that we must part ways here, hehe.

David Wallace

So in simple terms, what I'm saying is that we can build a mind, but we can't build a soul. The Turing test is a test of mind, not of soul.

Joseph Weissman

@Cerberus the objective measurement of general intelligence is passing a Turing test. (I'm not sure there are "objective" criteria here other than precisely fooling another intelligence into believing oneself intelligent.)

David Wallace

OK, but I might build a machine that is intelligent enough to fool Cerberus into believing that it's a human, but not intelligent enough to fool KitFox thus.

In other words, the Turing test is NOT objective.

Cerberus

11:30 PM

@JosephWeissman Is this not begging the question?

How do we test intelligence? By means of a Turing test.

MετάEd

@tchrist See the attribution at the bottom. They seem uncertain.

Cerberus

What is a Turing test? We test whether or not the candidate is perceived as intelligence.

MετάEd

I failed the Turing test.

Cerberus

Then what is intelligence? It is whatever passed the Turing test.

Joseph Weissman

(@David Not to bring us back to metaphysics again, but I would love to explore your cnocern a bit. Can you unpack your criticism of strong AI a little? --Is it basically about mind and body being different "substances"?)

@Cerberus definitely! There is certainly an ironic dimension to Turing's "solution" here.

Cerberus

11:32 PM

@DavidWallace It is not perfect, no, but it is at least better than the other option, in my opinion.

David Wallace

@JosephWeissman No, I contend that mind and body are the same substance, but mind and spirit are different substances.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Yeah, well, it depends on what it is supposed to test. If it supposed to test for intelligence, then it seems incomplete or circular. If it is supposed to test for human intelligence, then I think it is fair.

David Wallace

Do I pass the Turing test if I can convince another machine that has passed the Turing test that I am human?

Cerberus

Yes.

Joseph Weissman

It's interesting, right? Turing's imitation game. It's almost the abstract image of the computer itself, the universal machine which can imitate any other conceivable machine.

"Pretending". And this I think is why Turing cuts to the core of the materialist/idealist question.

Cerberus

11:35 PM

I think it's great as part of functionalism.

KitFox

@DavidWallace Male love interest to female.

David Wallace

@KitFox David

Cerberus

I knew it.

Joseph Weissman

It's a purely instrumentalist definition of sentience.

KitFox

@DavidWallace No. I need a name for a man who is intelligent and a creative thinker.

Cerberus

11:35 PM

Yeah. Isn't that the same as functionalist?

Oh. Uh. Sorry.

@KitFox Ouch!!!

@KitFox !

Hee hee

That escalated quickly.

Cerberus

11:36 PM

You shouldn't be allowed on the dating market! It would explode!

KitFox

But seriously. David is too common for my purposes. No offense.

David Wallace

None taken.

KitFox

Something to go with Thompson maybe.

tchrist

@MετάEd I thought Larry wrote it. It wasn’t in 3.010, but was there by 4.036. The comments’ language sounds like Larry, but I cannot imagine him using ";#" instead of "#" for comments. Dunno.

Joseph Weissman

I mean, it seems to me a lot of the questions/concerns about strong AI tend to blur together at the limit. My basic concern is about the spirit behind the idea that, basically, we don't have to worry about solving our problems, we'll just merge with super-intelligent machines.

It's a little too easy, right?

KitFox

11:38 PM

Or Kreutzfeldt. Would you be put off by a protagonist named Kreutzfeldt?

Joseph Weissman

It seems basically nihilistic.

@KitFox I like it.

David Wallace

@KitFox Is that his surname or his forename?

KitFox

Surname.

David Wallace

OK, how about Gunther for the first name (with an umlaut on the U which I can't be bothered typing).

KitFox

Mmm. Johannes Wolfhardt. But I don't think he can be the protagonist.

Cerberus

11:40 PM

@JosephWeissman Hmm but do they say that? If they do, that's silly, because I think there is no certainty that such a super AI will be created in the next couple of decades.

@KitFox How about Jacob?

David Wallace

Dragomir?

Cerberus

Or Jakob?

What is it again?

KitFox

Jakob.

Cerberus

Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease

Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease ( ) or CJD is a degenerative neurological disorder (brain disease) that is incurable and invariably fatal. CJD is at times called a human form of mad cow disease (bovine spongiform encephalopathy or BSE) even though classic CJD is not related to BSE; however, given that BSE is believed to be the cause of variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob (vCJD) disease in humans, the two are often confused. In CJD, the brain tissue develops holes and takes on a sponge-like texture. This is due to a type of infectious protein called a prion. Prions are misfolded proteins which re...

@KitFox Then Jakob.

David Wallace

Don't call him ....Oh, jinx!

KitFox

11:41 PM

Stieg?

David Wallace

Stein.

KitFox

I don't even know how to spell that name.

Cerberus

Stieg, the Scandinavian name?

David Wallace

Stein Huysegems

Stein Huysegems () (born 16 June 1982) is a Belgian striker who plays for the Wellington Phoenix in the A-League. Career He started his career at Belgian club Lierse SK, and has also played for the Dutch Eredivisie powerhouses like AZ, Feyenoord and FC Twente. On 16 January 2009, Huysegems signed a contract at K.R.C. Genk lasting until 30 June 2013. In September 2010, he went out on loan until the end of the season to the Dutch Eredivisie club Roda JC, but his deal was terminated on 22 March 2011. Before the start of the 2011-12 season of the Belgian Pro League, he was deemed surplus t...

KitFox

Stein Kreutzfeldt. Doesn't really roll off the tongue.

David Wallace

11:42 PM

Stieg Kreutzfeldt does so even less.

KitFox

What's "Kreutz" anyway? And is "feldt" field?

Joseph Weissman

@Cerberus I may be overstating it, but I worry this is basically what the hypothesis amounts to. Singularity is a theological category, there is a new piety about technology, a renewed faith in techno-scientific "progress" -- it seems to conspicuously attempt to capture or divert careful thinking about technology and science

Cerberus

@KitFox Cross, field.

David Wallace

I think kreutz = cross.

Will you stop pre-jinxing me?

KitFox

Thanks.

Constance Kreutzfeldt.

David Wallace

11:43 PM

Werner.

KitFox

Too blended? Too feminine?

Joseph Weissman

Konstanz.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman That may be so. I have only seen some of it from within its own domain: I have never seen it interact with other domains. If it tries to downplay those or suck them dry, that's bad.

@KitFox I thought you wanted a man?

KitFox

@JosephWeissman Can't do the double K. Too much like Krispy Kreme.

Cerberus

Constant is a male name.

KitFox

11:44 PM

Conrad. Conrad? Is that too dorky?

Too redneck?

David Wallace

Konstanz Kitfox Kreutzfeldt. Yes, that could be unfortunate.

Cerberus

Haha.

David Wallace

Excellent sobriety test though.

Except that it occasionally gives me a false negative. :-(

Joseph Weissman

@Cerberus I mean, there's the bigger question about science we've talked about before -- the way in which it has effectively replaced religion today, insofar as it "frees" us from thinking/knowing for ourselves, provides a new universal "subject-supposed-to-know"

Cerberus

It's funny how the name of a concept is very rarely a boy's name, but often a girl's name.

David Wallace

11:45 PM

Faith, Hope and Charity.

Cerberus

Perhaps that is because words for concepts are usually feminine themselves, like constance, piety, etc.

KitFox

@JosephWeissman I feel like the motivation is often overlooked. A Singularity wouldn't be a free-standing entity, conceived through parthenogenesis. Its origin would be ultimately human.

David Wallace

I once knew a woman called Pleasance.

Cerberus

Hawt.

Joseph Weissman

Balance.

KitFox

11:46 PM

Temperance.

I like that one a lot.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman That would be a cool name! Does it exist?

@KitFox And this one.

David Wallace

I once had a girlfriend who was a mathematics major. She said that if we had a child, it should be called Radius if it was a boy, or Formula if it was a girl.

Needless to say, I did not procreate with her.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Yeah, if people think science can solve everything and cannot cause any problems, that's wrong. But I do feel sympathetic towards the idea that science and technology can in certain cases enlarge the cake that we all get pieces of, so to speak.

@DavidWallace Aww that would be hilarious.

You should have, just for fuck's sake.

KitFox

So about this name. Conrad. Connie. Conspicuous.

Cerberus

Coen.

KitFox

11:49 PM

Conspicuous Duzenheimer was an intelligent man, a creative thinker.

David Wallace

Right. He could join the police and be Constable Conspicuous Kreutzfeldt.

Duzenheimer? Seriously?

Cerberus

Coen (short for Coenraad, but Coenraad is almost never seen, not even on birth certificates) is actually a pretty good name in Dutch.

Joseph Weissman

"The Last Case of Inspector Conspicuous Kreutzfeld"

David Wallace

Ceonraad Cruijff.

Cerberus

And Coen means brave, most probably.

KitFox

11:51 PM

@DavidWallace I used to pass myself off as Katja Salzenpfeffer.

Cerberus

I loved Anastasia Beaverhausen.

David Wallace

Yeah, I was Passza Mustardketchup.

KitFox

Men in bars are generally really dumb.

Cerberus

Hey, I have a question for y'all.

David Wallace

@KitFox Your point is?

Cerberus

11:52 PM

Are you aware of a trend where people will wear a t-shirt of pop idol that they "of course" would never be a fan of, ironically?

KitFox

I was Dr. Katja Salzenpfeffer, government specialist in hemorrhagic fevers and other rare infectious diseases.

Cerberus

Does this happen in America, NZ?

KitFox

I have not seen it, but then I wouldn't know.

Cerberus

Hmm OK.

KitFox

Band t-shirts are a little...young for my crowd.

David Wallace

11:53 PM

Umm, I flatted with someone who said it annoyed him when heavy metal bands wore other bands' T-shirts on stage.

But that doesn't answer your question; I know.

Cerberus

I think they are too young for the crowd involved in this ironic trend too, at least for some of them.

David Wallace

Hey, I have to go. I am supposed to be concentrating on something useful, that isn't this conversation.

KitFox

If his first name is Conspicuous, I don't think his last name can be Kreutzfeldt.

@DavidWallace Bye!

Cerberus

My colleague was talking about wearing a Justin Bieber t-shirt.

Bye!

KitFox

Conspicuous Bieber.

Joseph Weissman

11:55 PM

Private Eye.

KitFox

Zach Denton, Intergalactic Space Command!

Joseph Weissman

I read that "command" as "communist" at first.

KitFox

Now I'm stuck thinking Conspicuous is a great first name.

Joseph Weissman

It kind of is, though.

KitFox

laughs

It reminds me of Anathema Device.

Cerberus

11:56 PM

Hello Freud.

KitFox

Or whatshisface Ford.

What the hell is his name? Ford.

Urgh.

Joseph Weissman

Prefect? :)

KitFox

Yes. Thank you.

Ford Prefect or Anathema Device. Perfectly silly. Like jammy dodgers.

Conspicuous Dexter.

Conspicuous F. Dexter.

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