English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Adieu!

12:44 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 This GM script is great.

userscripts.org/users/487048

It lets you view all your applications on one page in the Play store.

And it lets you sort them into categories "installed", "free uninstalled", "paid uninstalled".

(And I hear the new Play Store application on Android will allow us to delete applications from My Apps. Then we will at last have the basic functions that Google somehow didn't build in, which is insane btw.)

Number of sentences in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings beginning with each of these coordinating conjunctions: But=1794 And=1169 For=447 So=247 Yet=158 Or=54 Nor=16

Looks like a sushi menu.

Sort of.

I found a paper I think you might like.

> Some postpositives are phonological clitics (‘=’) and others are not. Thus Greek =&' ‘and’ is a clitic and loses its tone to a preceding word, while !" ‘and’ is not enclitic and retains its tone. Latin too has postpositives that are clitics (=que ‘and’) and postpositives that are not (enim ‘for’).

Second-position is first-position: Wackernagel’s Law and the role of clausal conjunction

Dangit.

12:53 AM

What could !" be?

Wow, that didn't copypaste right at all!

Not exactly, no.

=&' should be te, but...

That is right.

They have =dé for and.

They talk about -que and -ve in Latin, too.

De is the second one?

Yes.

12:54 AM

OK.

You should be able to click the link.

zimmer.csufresno.edu/~chrisg/index_files/SecondPosition.pdf

But ehm, these things are well known, I believe.

Let me do the abstract for you.

We show that the notion “second-position” (Delbrück 1878, Wackernagel 1892)
involves a misunderstanding of coordinate structures and of the prosodic weight of
sentence-initial words in early IE languages. Conjunctions begin and end life
between their conjuncts; material from the right conjunct is moved only if postpositives
(Dover 1960) require it. This puts “second-position clitics” either
between clauses (conjunctions) or at the beginnings of clauses (pronouns and particles),
leaving nothing in second-position.

Based on the comparative syntax of early Indo-European (IE) languages,
Delbrück (1878) and Wackernagel (1892) proposed that PIE
had a set of “second-position clitics” that followed the first stressed
word of the sentence. Their thesis has been so influential that secondposition
in a sentence is often referred to as Wackernagel’s position,
even outside of IE.

And, well, they feel they’ve proven a bunch of that wrong.

The call de a conjunction??

How could that possibly be a conjunction?

We argue here that
nothing regularly occurs in second position in any of these languages
and offer an analysis under which these items lie outside of the clause
(conjunctions) or in clausal first-position (pronouns and particles).

12:58 AM

It is a particle.

Yes, I am browsing the article.

I can't comment on the Greek.

They need to define "conjunction" first.

But they are calling -que a postpositive conjunction.

Perhaps so.

Similarly, enim is normally not considered a conjunction.

-Que, yes. -Ve too.

That is what I thought.

But I found several other things calling enim a conjunction, which confused me.

1:01 AM

I suppose the line between particles and conjunctions is not always clear, just as the line between particles and adverbs is not.

Or igitur, as another postpositive.

So you could call all of these words conjunctions, but then I'd like to hear a definition.

Latin: An Intensive Course - Page 30 - Google Books Result
books.google.com/books?isbn=0520031830
Floyd L. Moreland, Rita M. Fleischer - 1977 - Foreign Language Study
Enim, 'indeed, of course', is a postpositive conjunction. This means that it cannot be the first word of a clause. Usually, a word that is postpositive is placed as the ...

See, there is another one?

How is that conjuncting anything?

Conjoining.

Yes, sorry.

1:02 AM

I wouldn't call indeed a conjunction either.

The status of so is dubious.

In and so they left the house, it is not.

I was taught there were only 4: and, but, or, nor. And now people pull up so, yet, for.

Well, coordinating conjunctions.

There are other kinds of conjunctions.

In there was no water, so they left the house, you could say it has become a subordinating conjunction (from the original adverb).

That is how I would prefer to read it.

For I would call a coördinating conjunction.

"For God so loved the world, that he ...." is a kind of conjunction?

"I could not leave, for they had barred the door."

1:04 AM

In English, the distinction is not as evident as in Dutch/German, of course.

How is that not just like "because"?

Yes, it works just like but and and in those sentences.

Because may be a conjunction, but it does not coordinate, but subordinate.

Yes.

But for can coördinate, and it is therefore called coördinating.

You can never start a sentence with a subordinating conjunction.

Because...?

1:06 AM

And so it must be coördinating.

:)

Of course there are elliptical uses.

So it's complicated, at least for English.

In Dutch, it's always crystal clear.

www.usu.edu/markdamen/Latin1000/Chapters/09ch.htm
Point out to students that non solum . . . sed etiam ("not only . . . but also") is a common formula in Latin. enim: A postpositive conjunction. in: When in takes an ...

Ik haat haar, want zij heeft mij verraden.

And another.

How is it always clear?

1:07 AM

"I hate her, for she has me betrayed."

Ik haat haar, omdat zij mij verraden heeft.

"I hate her, because she me betrayed has."

The finite verb and the rest of the predicate switch places in a subordinate clause.

The same applies to German.

Oh.

Right.

Yes.

Curious.

In English, I think the only reliable criterion is whether or not you can start a sentence with it.

Perhaps there are other criteria that I can't think of.

You can start an English sentence with most words.

Challenging ones include o’clock, ago, galore, aplenty.

But not with subordinating conjunctions, not normally.

Not in formal prose.

I will go unless you tell me not to.

Unless you tell me not to, I will go.

1:11 AM

Well, okay, sure.

"In a single-claused sentence."

Sorry, phone.

Could you give me an example?

(I'm timesharing.)

Of what?

You can't normally write I will not abandon her. Although I do not love her any more.

It looks informal.

You can write I will not abandon her. For I still love her.

1:27 AM

Hm.

"I will not abandon her, although I do not love her any more." = "Although I do not love her any more, I will not abandon her."

Those are completely interchangeable.

Why do you say it looks informal?

I’ve just now had accepted an answer I posted eight months ago.

Some people take a long time to decide.

@tchrist This is about single-claused sentences.

The point is that you need that comma there.

Oh, you mean a sentence with nothing but "Although I do not love her any more."?

Yes.

Hence my full stop.

I'm sorry I am so dense tonight. I'm falling-down tired. Less than five hours of sleep.

One of the things that goes with youth: the delusion that you can still function right without sleep.

Or, the ability to do so.

That one is undecidable.

I have a friend like you, stays up later than I do even though he is in your time zone.

We could rent the same hotel room for sleeping in, and never see each other. Completely opposite sleep schedules.

Yeah, well, I'm not proud of it.

1:40 AM

Because you're slackering?

coolschool.k12.or.us/courses/121510/lessons/assignments/13/…

Long list of colors, in Latin.

chrysoleucus. Hm, that isn’t very Latin looking. :)

Must be for botanists.

That's Greek. Many other words in that list are Greek too.

But the Romans used many Greek words.

I was noticing. That was my point.

By the way, colours are very hard.

This is the Homer problem?

We don't know for certain what all those colours meant exactly.

Yes, in Homer it is even harder.

1:44 AM

Bronze skies.

For example.

Guess that proves he was blind after all. :)

Oh, that again.

Just teasing.

I know.

1:45 AM

For some reason, it seems strange to me that we don’t what the colors meant.

Well, even between modern speakers of the same language there can be variations.

Between purple and blue, for example.

People sometimes disagree.

Or between green and blue.

That one I would have trouble believing, but I have heard of it.

I remember I had these trousers that my mother insisted were green, but I found them grey.

They were something in between grey and olive green.

To me, the grey aspect was more important.

To her, the green.

Maybe you and your mother have differing chromatic perception: she might be a partial tetrachromat, or you might have slight color blindness, or both.

No, I don't believe so.

When we discussed it, she admitted it was greyish, and I had to admit it was greenish.

It just seemed to me that grey was the better word.

1:49 AM

My mom and my dad disagree on colors.

Greys and greens and browns kinda run together for him.

And is their vision OK?

Ah.

He calls it bad lighting, and Mom calls it not paying attention to which socks he’s putting on, etc.

Of course there can be physical causes, but cultural/habitual causes are far more common.

Hmm so he puts on two socks that don't match?

That does seem physical.

More like she disagrees with which trousers go with which shirt.

But I think he also just doesn’t care much compared with her.

Ok, I'm off. Night.

Night!

@tchrist That probably explains it.

@Cameron I agree with your weblog post!

Pratik

2:08 AM

When one has been going to college for as long as he has, One starts to think the college owes one a degree.

So, in above sentence what is the meaning of "for as long as he has"?

Journeyman Geek

@Pratik If you have been college too long, you are doing it wrong ;p

It indicates he has been going to college for an extended period of time, which would usually mean getting a degree

Pratik

@JourneymanGeek : Thank you

MετάEd

3:24 AM

24 hours ago, by MετάEd

Shhhhhhhhh.

user19161

4:29 AM

@MετάEd Boo!

MετάEd

Okay, okay ... I'm awake.

Cameron

@Cerberus thanks for reading it! I was pretty nervous to put it out there.

user19161

@Cameron Nervous? It's your blog! You can write anything you want dude.

Cameron

@JasperLoy yeah, but there's just something about putting something on the Internet that seems so permanent, like if I say something stupid people will always be able to back to it and point it out to me

I guess that's kind of a childish fear, now that I read it there all written out

Understandable.

We all have it.

Then again, we're not so afraid of posting a long answer to a question.

user19161

4:43 AM

Hey @mah!

Hi @Jasper!

It's been awhile.

user19161

@Mahnax I now have 2k on TeX and 3k on Math. Yay!

@JasperLoy Well done!

user19161

@Mahnax How are your classes?

@JasperLoy Good! Lots of work, but I'm enjoying it.

user19161

4:50 AM

@Mahnax My friend will be returning from the US next month. He just finished his post-doctoral.

@JasperLoy That's awesome!

Would anybody mind answering a quick Lang question?

@JasperLoy Have you done anything exciting recently?

@AntiEarth Sure.

user19161

@AntiEarth You need to just ask.

user19161

@Mahnax Nothing, pretty much the same, trying to get better. Online activities mostly on SE.

4:51 AM

Is 'run' when used as a noun, such as in 'It was a quick run', considered nomilisation?

user19161

@AntiEarth Hmm, sorry. I don't know what nomilisation is.

user19161

Someone else might help you.

Dang it :(

It's not a gerund though, is it? (Since gerunds are in -ing form)

user19161

Why don't you post on the main site if you need an answer?

@AntiEarth Um, do you mean nominalisation?

4:55 AM

Because it's rather a specific, unhelpful to the wider community, question

Welp. Yes I do :)

(Sorry, I'm grappling with a horrible touch screen interface)

It looks like it could be classified as zero-derivation nominalisation.

I'm no expert though.

Yeah, the Wikipedia page says "Some languages simply allow verbs to be used as nouns, while others require some form of morphological transformation. English has cases of both."

I'm wondering if 'run' is one such special case requiring it. It was discussed it my english language class but my extremely forgetful self have wiped all memory of it. I don't remember a simple conclusion, hence my uncertainty :/

If you scroll down a bit and look at the section titled "with zero derivation" it looks like it would work.

user19161

See, Mahnax is just reading that link, so you should too anti earth.

As have I. I find clarifying the mechanics of a particular instance (when I have a slight suspicion it to be a special case) on an English language site to be more sensible than assuming it similar to other examples on a Wikipedia page :S

Thanks for the help though. I see no reason as to object it as nominalisation. Thanks!

Dang it. Can't grammar on iPad :|

6:32 AM

hi

How are you @DavidWallace

Oh, hey, I'm very well thanks Noah. Your good self?

Good

Have you landed a new job?

@Cerberus According to McCormick's "Basic Italian Grammar", "ti" is the standard form, but changes to "te" before any of the pronouns "lo", "la", "li" and "le". Unfortunately, that doesn't quite match what Kiamlaluno said. I believe there is some dialectal variation, but I can't find a reference that supports this.

@Noah Yes, I start a new job on Tuesday.

I was also working today, at a different job.

Thank you for asking.

@DavidWallace Cool, congrat.

It would be Monday, but Monday is a public holiday here.

6:37 AM

What's the new job about?

Oh, working on an internet banking site for a big bank.

I'm a Java programmer, basically.

That's interesting

Umm, I hope so. It has the potential not to be.

Are you at university or at high school?

High school

Umm, somewhere in America, right?

Sorry, I don't remember which state.

6:39 AM

That's right

CA

Ah, some decent weather then.

Yea, but I kind of like cold weather

How cold does it get there in winter?

You mean here in CA?

Yes.

6:41 AM

65-70

60-70

My goodness. That almost sounds like our summer.

That's teh range

Mind you, neither our summers nor our winters are particularly extreme. I think because we're surrounded by water.

The weather of CA is kind of stable

I've heard about that. I have a few freinds from NZ

There is nothing between Wellington (near where I live) and Antarctica. So the southerlies are consistently cold. Our summers just don't get hot.

Oddly, in New Zealand, the further south you go, the hotter the summers are.

I don't understand this at all.

6:45 AM

Does it mean it's alway cold?

Wellington is always moderately cold. Never extremely cold. There's not much difference between our winters and our summers. But Wellington is particularly well known for its wind. Like Chicago, I guess.

The weather in the Midwest is very unpreditable

I'm never quite sure what "Midwest" means.

You are right. Chicago is known for it;s wind

Well, it's the northern region of the states. Nebraska, Ohio, Illinois, Iowa, Michigan etc are some of the states located in the midwest

Chicago is like a hub for these states...

So "midwest" means "middle of the north". Makes sense, I guess.

6:51 AM

Never thought about that, but I guess you are right.

Just one of the things that Americans sometimes assume everyone knows.

Like, which states are the "tri-state area".

You are right.

Or what all the two-letter state abbreviations are. (Fortunately, I knew CA).

They think that everyone is from here, funny, huh?

CA could mean Canada, right?

Umm, except that I had already said "somewhere in America", so I assumed you meant California.

6:55 AM

Right.

Are you near the sea?

I live in Berkley

Do I have to find a map?

I don't know whether that is on the coast, or not.

No

It is

It's a pretty nice place, though.

Oh, I don't doubt that in the slightest.

The only places in USA that I've ever been are airports, on the way to somewhere else.

7:00 AM

How do you like the airports?

Umm, I didn't like the food at LA international airport. And they lost our bags.

@DavidWallace NEVER fly with UA

Oh, I'm not sure that I would. This was Air New Zealand from Auckland to LA, then Lufthansa from LA to Munich.

Sorry, UA= United Airlines

Yeah, I got that one. I wasn't thinking Utah.

7:03 AM

You would if you were working for Mr. Rommney

Haha.

I got that!

They say Auckland is pretty nice. Never been there, but would love to see that part of the world.

There are many nicer places than Auckland.

Plus, Kiwis seem to be pretty cool minded people.

:-) Thank you.

user19161

7:07 AM

Hmm, I am trying out Chrome 22 now.

@JasperLoy is that the browser?

user19161

@Noah I eat kiwis.

user19161

@Noah Indeed.

@JasperLoy You do not. You eat kiwifruit.

@JasperLoy That's interesting, Mr. Vampire:)

user19161

7:08 AM

@DavidWallace You never call them kiwis?

user19161

@Noah I am not Edward Cullen but rather Jacob Black. =)

Kiwi = our national bird. Or New Zealanders.

The fruit is called a kiwifruit.

We NEVER call it a kiwi.

@JasperLoy Look, he threw the CAPS at you...

Hey, Jasper, did I offend you with that limerick earlier?

user19161

@DavidWallace No, I am never offended, only hurt sometimes. And that was a harmless limerick.

7:10 AM

Dont worry about Jasper, Dave. He takes no offense

user19161

@Noah Dave sounds intimate!

@JasperLoy you meant inmate, lol?

user19161

@Noah I find it amusing that some people get offended over very harmless things.

user19161

You know what? I just cast 17 delete votes! Whoo!

user19161

But I did cast some reopen votes as well.

7:15 AM

the fire cast a soft light

user19161

@Noah I don't understand that one. What has vampires got to do with caps?

"We NEVER call it a kiwi."

It was a response to this one

user19161

@Noah Ah!

user19161

Now I may enter your ark!

Time's up. It's midnight

See you guys, nice talking to you as always...

user19161

7:17 AM

@Noah You must be on the east coast.

user19161

@Noah See you in your dreams.