English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

1:00 PM

That came up when I searched for ichyocentaurs.

RegDwighт

Robusto

@tchrist Try again. I think your first attempt was just a fluke.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist WTF does it have wings AND a fish tail

KitFox

Shouldn't it be ichthyocentaurs?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No creature would ever evolve that way.

RegDwighт

1:01 PM

That's an egg-laying wool-milk-sow, BTW.

tchrist

Doubtless that was the problem.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 How do you explain sea horses then? Hmm?

@KitFox hand of God

The Creation of Cat.

1:02 PM

Awww.

That you, Reg?

RegDwighт

No, that's Reddit.

tchrist

@Cerberus on a bad day:

KitFox

taht Ceiling Cat iz funneh-lookin

RegDwighт

Where's the yellow brick road?

tchrist

Toto lost.

Robusto

1:04 PM

@RegDwighт We were looking to you to answer that question.

@RegDwighт The cat has a different view of who is creating whom.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Apr 3 at 13:43, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

tchrist

And on a good day:

RegDwighт

Jul 18 at 15:21, by RegDwight ΒВB

Robusto

@tchrist Where do you go for a mani-pedi?

RegDwighт

@Robusto to Macchu-Picchu, of course.

Cerberus

1:06 PM

Hello.

Mani-pedi...that has got to be the silliest word ever.

tchrist

Is it a good day or a bad day?

Cerberus

Although...

How about manies and pedies?

Robusto

@Cerberus Hey, we've found out about you. You have a whole network that continues to confound Commander Shepard in Mass Effect.

tchrist

That’s not legal in most countries.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus the silliest word ever is rain-bow.

Robusto

1:07 PM

Regenbogen is much sillier.

Cerberus

Um.

Why?

tchrist

Paedofeelya is a crime.

Cerberus

@Robusto Never played that.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus I don't know, ask the word, it's the one who's silly.

Robusto

@Cerberus You would fit right in.

Cerberus

1:08 PM

Gee, gracias.

Robusto

Martin Sheen plays your leader.

JSBձոգչ

0

Q: Invoke JS function in IFrame window

I have a JS function which I sometimes want to invoke in the context of the main window, and sometimes in the client window. Something like the following: var f = function() { alert(window.location); }; f(); // should show the location of the parent frame // DOESN'T WORK, but is intended to sh...

anybody have a clue about this?

RegDwighт

@tchrist so is paytofillya, but only in some states.

Cerberus

@David: I did a small test on Italian tu/ti/te based on what Kiam said, and I got 82 %, and that only because of one misclick and one very weird sentence that I totally didn't understand.

tchrist

A manipedi is a kind of zoo where they keep small children for animals’ pleasure.

Cerberus

1:09 PM

So those rules could be about enough.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBձոգչ I'm not sure what you want to do is possible.

RegDwighт

@JSBձոգչ don't work with frames, sorrieh...

JSBձոգչ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i'm pretty sure that i've seen it done... i just can't remember what the trick was

Cerberus

9 was a misclick.

4 I don't understand at all.

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ I answered it. You're confused about top and window.

Cerberus

1:10 PM

Of course these are very simple sentences.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus qu'est-ce que c'est que ca?

JSBձոգչ

@Robusto s/he's/you are/

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBձոգչ I think you can call JS functions that are already defined in other frames if they are in the same domain. But I don't think you can execute a script on a different "window".

RegDwighт

@Cerberus I came to your house with Dan?

Cerberus

C'est un petit exame sur les pronomina te, ti, et tu en Italien.

Robusto

1:11 PM

The window that exists in a frame or an iframe is the frame itself, not the parent window.

RegDwighт

And the speaker is female.

JSBձոգչ

@Robusto yes, i know that. what i want is a single function in which window sometimes is the parent window, and sometimes the child frame

Cerberus

@RegDwighт I was at your house, I would say? But the "a tu per tu" I don't understand.

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ Then don't use window. Use a reference to whichever window you mean. But use top to ascertain which.

Cerberus

italian.tolearnfree.com/free-italian-lessons/…

RegDwighт

1:13 PM

@Cerberus Google says "face to face".

> At home I found myself face to face with Dan

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBձոգչ maybe a better question is "what are you trying to do"?

Cerberus

Then it must be a weird idiomatic expression?

RegDwighт

Except it drops the tua for some reason.

Robusto

@RegDwighт Wouldn't that be tete a tete (fill in your own diacriticals) instead?

RegDwighт

@Cerberus I don't see how it's any more weird than vis-a-vis.

In fact, it's almost a calque.

Cerberus

1:13 PM

@RegDwighт Yeah, G. Translate sucks.

JSBձոգչ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i have a function object which refers to window. This function is created in the topmost page. however, i currently want to run it inside the child iframe.

RegDwighт

@Robusto possibly, no idea.

Robusto

@Cerberus Vertalen zuigt.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Vis-à-vis? Doesn't that mean face to face? How does "tu" fit in? And why the nominative after a?

RegDwighт

Though "found myself vis-a-vis Dan" makes more sense.

Cerberus

1:14 PM

@Robusto Vertalen zuigt inderdaad, soms!

tchrist

Spanish(te, ti) = Italian(ti, te). But that doesn’t explain this.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus because it's a set phrase [a [tu per tu]].

Cerberus

@RegDwighт It would make sense, but the internal structure of a tu per tu still does not.

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

Then it must be a weird idiomatic expression?

RegDwighт

Exactly.

Except not weird.

Matt Эллен

@JSBձոգչ can you add the function to the child frame? like document.getElementById('iframeid').contentWindow['f'] = f and then call that?

RegDwighт

1:16 PM

We're going in circles!

Cerberus

You don't find per + nominative weird?

tchrist

I found myself in a tête-à-tête at your place.

Add hyphens

RegDwighт

For all intents and purposes, regard "tu per tu" is a noun. An undeclinable one.

Chris

-intermezzo- Should it be 'with A come B and C' or 'with A comes B and C'? The latter seems more reasonable in terms of grammar, but sounds very odd to me (non-native).

RegDwighт

You have that all the time in a great many languages.

Nothing peculiar, really.

JSBձոգչ

1:17 PM

@MattЭллен hmmm. that's an idea

tchrist

If it were a tu-per-tu, it would not bother you.

Cerberus

I think mi sono trovato is more like I happened to be?

Matt Эллен

it asked me to do all sort s of things or it would kill my family

tchrist

@Cerberus More like that what?

RegDwighт

@Cerberus no idea. I drew a parallel to "Ich habe mich eingefunden" at first, so I'm biased.

KitFox

1:18 PM

@JSBձոգչ I wish I could help, sorry.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Probably. But with a weird internal structure! And how was I supposed to know that?

I was only an innocent dog taking a simple test.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus well how are you supposed to know anything there? That's the point. It teaches you things.

@Cerberus perhaps their way of flipping you off.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBձոգչ Well, I'm not an expert, but I don't think what you're doing will work.

Cerberus

@Chris Come, because B and C is normally treated as plural by most style books, I think. Although the singular would perhaps be acceptable too.

JSBձոգչ

@MattЭллен tried, but that doesn't work

tchrist

1:19 PM

Devi venire a trovarmi così possiamo conoscerci a tu per tu!

Matt Эллен

@JSBձոգչ dang

Cerberus

@tchrist I found myself has different connotations for me.

tchrist

blushes

Cerberus

@RegDwighт And how would you translate that?

RegDwighт

@Chris my vote goes to plural, too.

Cerberus

1:20 PM

@RegDwighт Exactly.

RegDwighт

4

Q: Singular or plural following a list

Can anyone tell me if I should use inspire or inspires in this phrase? An extraordinary leader whose vision, values, integrity and boundless curiosity inspires all who follow in his footsteps.

grammatical-number list

tchrist

The subject is plural.

RegDwighт

Somewhat related.

Except flipped upside down. By Will Smith.

tchrist

It’s inversion due to a fronted prep phrase.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus ah, don't you have the same in Dutch?

Chris

1:21 PM

Thank you all very much!

KitFox

"With great power comes great responsibility and a nice cup of tea."

RegDwighт

"Sich einfinden", to come visit, to appear at a scene.

tchrist

A tu per tu

A tu per tu è un film italiano del 1984 diretto da Sergio Corbucci ed interpretato da Paolo Villaggio e Johnny Dorelli. Trama Emanuele Sansoni, un ricco faccendiere braccato dalla Guardia di Finanza e da alcuni banditi, fuggendo vestito da sub dal suo panfilo al largo di Rapallo, sale a bordo di un taxi condotto da un goffo ligure di nome Gino Sciaccaluga, ordinandogli di portarlo immediatamente a Milano. Arrivati nell'abitazione milanese di Sansoni, prende con sé dei documenti importanti con cui ricattare l'establishment politico-affaristico italiano, e i due si dirigono in fuga verso ...

Chris

@KitFox That'd be incorrect in light of what was said above, right? Or are you cinvinced this is an exception?

KitFox

@Chris That's what I would say. It doesn't sound right to me the other way.

Cerberus

1:23 PM

@tchrist What does that mean? "You must come to find me so?" And then "we can get to know (-ci?) face to face"? I don't get the transition from devi to possiamo. Is cosí supposed to be a conjunction?

@RegDwighт Nope, we don't have that.

tchrist

@Cerberus Yes, yes, yes.

That’s why I blushed.

Cerberus

We only have sich befinden.

tchrist

It was an example phrase I found in a page demo'ing a tu per tu.

Where by phrase, I mean sentence.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes what? It can be used as a conjunction?

Or yes, it is strange?

RegDwighт

@Cerberus yeah I guess they are connected. Already be there vs. only just appear.

Cerberus

1:24 PM

Right.

Chris

@KitFox So what about a concrete example like 'With war come material damage and loss of lives' (for a quick something)

tchrist

Così is like so.

Cerberus

In French, se trouver normally means sich befinden.

KitFox

@Chris I would use comes there too.

Cerberus

In Italian too, I believe.

RegDwighт

1:25 PM

I mean, you have that ein- everywhere else, eintreten, Eingang.

Cerberus

I don't know whether sich einfinden is also posisble.

RegDwighт

Ich habe mich dort eingefunden.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт We can only use it that way with verbs of motion.

Chris

@KitFox Hmm alright, yeah that was my guess but now there's a lot of disagreement

KitFox

@Chris [singular thing][singular verb][plural things] is how it feels to me, but I'm not an expert.

Cerberus

1:26 PM

@Chris Correct!

RegDwighт

@Cerberus yeah but it is a verb of motion, of sorts. In the same way as is eintreten.

Cerberus

Oh, I see Kit and I disagree.

tchrist

Medieval Spanish trovarse is now translated into encontrarse.

RegDwighт

You weren't there, then you were there. Motion involved.

tchrist

@KitFox That’s not how I read the sentence.

Chris

1:27 PM

@Cerber RegDwi seems to be on your side though

Cerberus

@RegDwighт It becomes verb of motion by sticking on ein-, but we can only do it with verbs that already express motion without in-, I think.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus ah!

Cerberus

@Chris Woohoo!

KitFox

I don't see how you can parse that sentence and come up with a plural verb.

RegDwighт

@Kit I have no idea what the flagger is trying to say.

Cerberus

1:28 PM

@RegDwighт So ik ben de winkel ingelopen. I do think we have older (fixed) verbs that have in- turning them into a verb of motion, but I would say it is no longer productive. Inzetten, for example, is like English to set in. Unless I am too semantically satiated now.

Matt Эллен

It should definitely be "with war comes X" I have no explanation as for why

KitFox

@RegDwighт What's that?

RegDwighт

@KitFox main site. Who's lex?

tchrist

12 mins ago, by Chris

-intermezzo- Should it be 'with A come B and C' or 'with A comes B and C'? The latter seems more reasonable in terms of grammar, but sounds very odd to me (non-native).

It has to be plural verb.

B and C come with A.

With A come B and C.

KitFox

@RegDwighт I don't see a flag. I remember lex from yesterday though.

tchrist

1:29 PM

No question.

RegDwighт

@KitFox oh I guess someone handled it then.

KitFox

@tchrist I disagree.

tchrist

Find the subject.

Matt Эллен

A comes with B and C

no question

KitFox

That.

Matt Эллен

1:30 PM

B and C come with A

Cerberus

@KitFox Well, the subject is material damage and loss of lives. I suppose you could in some cases treat the two as one "concept". But...

RegDwighт

Wait, but that's like grammar 101.

I thought we were discussing complexer things.

tchrist

What is the subject of "With A come B and C"?

Plot it out.

KitFox

I am not going to do that. It is "With A comes B and C."

Cerberus

@MattЭллен That is entirely different.

tchrist

1:31 PM

Down the street come my prancing friends.

@KitFox What is your singular subject?

RegDwighт

B, obviously.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Yeah, this is a bit like duplicate no. 9000!

RegDwighт

It's perfectly fine as a variation if that's what she's been using all her life.

Read our blog or something.

BRB

tchrist

"On the radio plays Simon&Garfunkel" is only kind of thing that can take a singular, because it is a conjoined plural that is notionally one thing.

Cerberus

Even that sounds weird to me. But, yes, sometimes the notional singular kicks in.

tchrist

1:33 PM

@Cerberus I agree. I couldn’t come up with a better example on the spur of the moment.

Cerberus

I was trying very hard as well, but nothing acceptable came up.

But I'm sure it exists.

tchrist

Whoever these people are who think B&C is singular clearly have a better example in mind than we do.

Or they flunked math.

Chris

I'd also say, 'B and C come with A' -> 'With A come B and C'. Then again, I'm far from an expert.

tchrist

With spring comes new growth, and flowers follow.

With the carnival come lions and tigers and bears.

@Chris No, you are perfectly correct.

KitFox

@Chris I think the answer is to do whatever you want.

Cerberus

1:38 PM

> Killing and violence is against the law.

tchrist

@KitFox You mean, do it wrong if he feels like it? Sure.

Cerberus

> Bread and butter is enough, thank you.

tchrist

@Cerberus Good.

KitFox

@tchrist Don't troll me. I'm not in the mood.

Cerberus

@tchrist From Fowler's.

tchrist

1:39 PM

@KitFox Then substantiate your claim, or retract it.

Cerberus

@Chris I agree.

@tchrist You will often see the singular, that much is true.

KitFox

@tchrist I am a native speaker of English. I would say "With war comes material damage and loss of lives." It sounds natural to me. The other way does not.

Matt Эллен

@tchrist substantiated

Cerberus

It is just not recommended by style books.

Matt Эллен

but you have to actually read the entries

Cerberus

1:40 PM

@MattЭллен Fowler would call those incorrect.

tchrist

@MattЭллен "Reason brings order to bear upon well-doing, and with order come proportion, beauty, and constancy."

Robusto

@KitFox I agree with this. To say "With war come ... [list]" sounds wrong to my ear.

KitFox

So I suppose it depends on whether you interpret [material damage and loss of lives] as a compound subject?

Matt Эллен

@tchrist I saw that 1 but I saw far more that support me and kit

RegDwighт

Just regard it as conflation.

Cerberus

1:41 PM

@KitFox Yeah, as a notational singular, I would say (singular in meaning, though plural in form).

Matt Эллен

With order comes certainty and preservation

RegDwighт

With X comes Y. With X comes Z. Throw in an and et voila.

tchrist

> Remember: with hard work come results.

Matt Эллен

With order comes an optimistic relief, a playground for joy, and the foundation for creativity and imagination.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's a dessert topping! It's a floor wax! Stop, you're both right!

Matt Эллен

1:42 PM

With order comes the opportunity to build the strength and wealth of the state for the ultimate purpose of becoming the leader

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I said that already. Just do what feels right.

Matt Эллен

"With order comes rules

RegDwighт

@KitFox no, I said that already.

tchrist

> Employees need to know that along with hard work come promotions and raises.

Robusto

I think it's kind of a zeugma.

Cerberus

1:43 PM

@MattЭллен This I would say is plain wrong.

KitFox

@RegDwighт OK. You said that.

RegDwighт

@Robusto or that.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus but it is the more frequent use

Cerberus

@tchrist Your examples are no good either.

@MattЭллен shrugs

JSBձոգչ

hey @Reg, what's an approximate IPA rendition of how октября is pronounced in contemporary Russian? i'm interested in how the vowels reduce

tchrist

1:43 PM

> But then comes autumn, and with autumn come passions, and with passions disturbance, and with disturbance color, and with passion's disturbance the shifting and changing of colors.

JSBձոգչ

@Robusto you're a kind of zeugma

tchrist

> With autumn come displays of the most tempting hats, in all the West-end milliners' windows and showrooms : hats of gigantic proportions, with spiked wings standing up in towering altitude, or sticking out at the sides in aggressive fashion.

Robusto

@tchrist That one has a plural noun, so of course the verb must agree.

Cerberus

Ehh...

RegDwighт

@JSBձոգչ depends on the dialect. Mine (Moscow) reduces я to и. The о is a schwa.

tchrist

1:44 PM

> But with autumn come many fruits that need but little tending, and life in September and October becomes easier. But like the Greek winter the Greek autumn is short.

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ He said, sylleptically.

JSBձոգչ

@RegDwighт both ya's reduce to [i]?

Cerberus

@tchrist All your examples have a plural first member. Those do not count.

RegDwighт

@JSBձոգչ nono, the last one is under stress.

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ I would like to know too.

tchrist

1:44 PM

> Yes, with autumn come decomposition, decay and death. The decay and death of leaves... But nothing is more beautiful than their death in the fall.

RegDwighт

You have to stress the word somewhere. Even in Russian.

Cerberus

That one counts.

Now I have to run.

Bai!

JSBձոգչ

[əktʲi'brʲa]

Robusto

It depends. I think either works.

RegDwighт

@JSBձոգչ The T is palatalized as well.

tchrist

1:46 PM

> With winter come salted fish and hearty vegetables such as beets, green peas, cabbage, and mushrooms.

RegDwighт

@JSBձոգչ That's it.

JSBձոգչ

thanks

tchrist

> With winter come winter's amusement, snowshoeing, skeeing, curling, toboganing and kindred sports, for which visitors journeyed to Montreal, are here in perfection, less than an afternoon's trip from the great metropolis.

KitFox

@JSBձոգչ How can I hear what that sounds like?

Or should I just google?

tchrist

> Lift your light locks of youth, and scatter them In tangled beauty round your glowing face ; Call up old Sylvan to the mountain-side. Pleasant to Sylvan when with Summer come The twittering swallow and the shrilling swift; ...

> With summer come visiting family and friends. Every one talks of grandchildren.

> With spring come the breakup and the return of ...

> With spring come all the sea-fowl to the bird-cliffs, and curlew, golden plover, and Arctic jaegers, 'plaintive creatures that pity themselves on moorlands.' All through the long dark winter the wren and titlark sing cheerfully.

JSBձոգչ

1:50 PM

@KitFox it's "uk-tee-BRYA"

tchrist

> With marriage come bodily union, sexual intercourse, and the procreation of children.

KitFox

Thanks. I'm printing the IPA chart. I think maybe I'll learn that while I'm learning Cyrillic.

tchrist

> With adulthood come the challenge of duty, and fateful decisions.

> With adulthood come work, a career, and personal responsibilities that, although voluntarily accepted, transform the play of childhood into the involuntary obligations of "real" life.

Matt Эллен

> with tchrist comes the inability to notice when the discussion has moved on and a whole bunch of quotes

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ *uk-tyee-BRA?

Matt Эллен

1:53 PM

only $9.99

tchrist

> With morning come the burgomaster's family to his chamber.

This one has both:

> Because with war come hysteria and a general disregard for the checks and balances that define our liberty. With war comes xenophobia, the fear of anything different and foreign. With war comes a loss of civil liberties for everyone, liberal and ...

KitFox

I wonder if my Cyrillic chart might come with IPA and Latin.

tchrist

Notice how the singular subject gets comes and the plural subject gets come in that citation.

Cerberus

@tchrist No, those don't count.

tchrist

How not?

Cerberus

1:54 PM

@tchrist Right, yes.

I thought you meant singular verb with plural subject.

tchrist

This is why the Oxford comma is imprescindible.

KitFox

@Matt Are you coming to Chat today?

Gigili

Hullio.

KitFox

Hey, @JSB, do you feel like coming to Writer's Chat today? We're supposedly looking at character sketches.

@Gigili Hullo, sweetie.

tchrist

@Cerberus The sentences are well-formed, and parse sensibly. That author keeps the distinction of singular and plural well under control. Others may have a looser hold on these matters.

Cerberus

1:57 PM

Yes.

@KitFox smooch

Now I must run, bye!

@KitFox perhaps...

Look, it’s three of our regulars about to run a race: