English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

You know something weird? I never say "atop of something", only "atop something". It is perfectly fine, normal, and common to say "atop of something", but I never do so. I wonder why.

RegDwighт

I'm like 50/50.

In fact I almost changed it in the sentence above.

tchrist

I do say "on top of something", but with atop, I skip the of.

RegDwighт

chat.stackexchange.com/search?q=atop&user=977&room=95

Oct 4 at 13:53, by RegDwighт

Your neighbor above you lives atop it. You live underneath.

Aug 21 at 17:40, by RegDwight АΑA

@MattЭллен what's that spot atop your winged penis? You might wish to see a balrodermatologist about it.

And then there's this:

Aug 3 at 22:10, by RegDwight АΑA

There was a cathedral, then there was an explosion, then there almost was an Empire State Building with an OVER-9000-storey Lenin statue atop, then there was war, then there was a huge swimming pool, then there was a cathedral.

Neither fish nor flesh.

tchrist

@RegDwighт My balrog search misses that one!

RegDwighт

@tchrist because the G is reduced.

Wouldn't happen to Ice T.

tchrist

2:12 PM

Now I have to search balro*.

RegDwighт

Have fun.

I'll go see how much irreversible damage I have done to my technique.

BBL

tchrist

Isn’t there a –1st century bronze of a wingèd penis?

KitFox

@Gigili Give me a few moments to comply.

tchrist

@RegDwighт Enjoy!

Gigili

@RegDwighт And then a balrog landed there?

KitFox

2:17 PM

OK.

Here's me and my eldest son.

Here's me with my brothers and the potato cannon.

And there I am with my eldest again.

Actually, that's probably me and my husband and one of my brothers in that middle one.

There. Satisfied, @Gigili?

Matt Эллен

now replace them with pictures of cats!

and leave the captions :D

JSBձոգչ

@Kit always leaves me unsatisfied

KitFox

Haha.

Gigili

@KitFox Very noice. Thank you.

KitFox

@JSBձոգչ I thought you had seen my face? Or do you mean something else?

JSBձոգչ

2:22 PM

@KitFox i actually don't think i've seen your face, but that's okay. i was just teasing.

KitFox

Yum.

Gigili

That's me.

Mwahahaha.

KitFox

@MattЭллен Yay!

Are you coming to Chat @Gigili?

Gigili

Umm? OK.

Matt Эллен

KitFox

2:32 PM

Hilarious.

I mean, hey! I deleted those for a reason!

Matt Эллен

:D

KitFox

Well, never mind. Might as well just leave it.

Matt Эллен

shed your anonymity!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

she's not exactly anonymous. Her username is a transparent transformation of her actual name.

completely transparent!

like Saran-wrap

Matt Эллен

like celophane

jinx!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:35 PM

hahaha

KitFox

Holy fuck! How did I miss that?

Now I shall have to change my username.

Gigili

Her real name must be umm Xoftik?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Gigili Close. Xo Ftik.

Gigili

Yo Xo.

@KitFox Can I take a rain check? I must get this finished tonight.

Sorry, I must do my project and OH is quite dead.

Bye for now!

KitFox

@Gigili OK bye.

Robusto

2:53 PM

BTW, it appears that amn't is an Irish and Northern English usage. I heard it used frequently in the dialogue in some audiobooks on my trip.

KitFox

makes interested sound

Robusto

amn't listening

JSBձոգչ

3:10 PM

@Robusto how is that actually pronounced? [æmt]? [ænt]?

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ It was pronounced amment to my ear.

JSBձոգչ

huh. ok.

Robusto

@JSBձոգչ [æmənt] if you're IPA-fussy.

But soft-pedaling the ə.

Kind of the way isn't does it. The schwa is kind of swallowed, but present.

JSBձոգչ

i call that a syllabic [n], but YMMV

Robusto

Yeah, it could be that too.

[æmnt]

Very hard to go from /m/ to /n/ without some kind of glottal involvement.

MετάEd

4:09 PM

@Robusto What we need is a glottal movement.

Something about glottal warming.

KitFox

Writer's Chat, starting now in The Overlook. We're discussing how to do character sketches today.

Cameron

5:12 PM

68

English Language Learners

Proposed Q&A site for people learning English, whose questions are too basic for the English Language and Usage site.

Closed before being launched.

RIP

Matt Эллен

HOLY JESUS WHAT THE FUCK?

What a cunt

KitFox

What the hell?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

0

Q: On the Closure of English Language Learners

Proposal: English Language Learners I wasn't sure about the need for this site when it was proposed. But in keeping with the spirit and purpose of Area 51, I asked the Community Team to keep an open mind and let the process of ideas and development run its course through Definition. So now look...

KitFox

We were in commitment for what, 3 days?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox maybe 5.

so suddenly all those questions we thought were off-topic are now on-topic, by fiat?

Matt Эллен

5:15 PM

apparently we're to answer genref

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

feels all huffy and upset even though he was opposed to the split in the first place

2

JSBձոգչ

feels aloof and indifferent because he was opposed to the split in the first place

KitFox

So I guess we should close and delete all the questions we used as examples from EL&U.

Or just start answering whatever anyone wants to post.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

rep-whoring, here I come!

KitFox

w00t!

Robusto

5:21 PM

0

Q: To what topic does this grammar belong?

It makes easier for you to install the program. You may find it difficult to locate the bug. To what topic does this grammar belong?

Which grammar?

5:32 PM

I have generally preferred Samsung phones because they seem more durable to me.

JSBձոգչ

6:00 PM

which is good, if you ever intend to put them in a blender

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha wtf.

We are supposed to believe a phone turns to dust in a blender?

How would that be possible?

David Wallace

You need to run some tests.

Do you have a phone and a blender?

JSBձոգչ

you just need to blend them for a very long time with a very good blender

pretty much anything will eventually turn to dust under those conditions

MετάEd

@KitFox Actually, I think what we should do is very close to that. EL&U is supposed to serve experts. That is what it was created for, and that is what the FAQ says. We should be willing to close and delete questions that are too basic. Not because we don't care to help people who have ELL issues, but we do care to help experts and that is who the site is for.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Wait, let me buy them.

@JSBձոգչ Not the blender?

KitFox

6:12 PM

@MετάEd I just don't know. I don't have the energy to fight the fight.

MετάEd

"This question is too basic. Please support ELL."

JSBձոգչ

@Cerberus well there's a question. will the blender blend if you put it in the blender?

Cerberus

@MετάEd Well, I don't know whether to consider myself an expert, but the basic questions don't bother me much. I really don't see the problem.

MετάEd

@KitFox It's not a fight: it's just the willingness to not be swayed by arguments in comments such as "this is a good and helpful question or a good and helpful answer (for an EL learner)". Close and delete basic questions.

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ I mean, if you blend various metal and glass parts, will not the blender die long before the metal is turned into dust?

MετάEd

6:13 PM

@Cerberus The problem is that many real experts don't have the time or inclination to wade through the basic questions. Make the site habitable for real experts and we will get some real interesting expert Q&A.

JSBձոգչ

@Cerberus i don't think that the metal was entirely turned to dust. i suspect that the dust is mostly crushed and partially burnt plastic, and that there's a lot of metal debris at the bottom that we can't see

MετάEd

@Cerberus And the other half of it is, there's no reason a lot of people here can't volunteer at ELL as well as ELU.

So it's not that basic questions have no value, it's just that this site isn't serving the experts well.

Cerberus

@MετάEd I proposed that we tag questions with something like "academic" or "interesting", so that you could avoid all other questions if you wanted.

MετάEd

Our problem is that we have too many people who are so nice that they hate to close questions that would help someone basic.

Cerberus

@JSBձոգչ Hmm but he turned the blender upside-down.

@MετάEd How about if we wait until ELL goes live?

Then we can migrate the hell out of them.

I enjoy answering basic questions well enough, from time to time.

KitFox

6:18 PM

@Cerberus It's been closed.

Cerberus

What??

Seriously? Why?

KitFox

1 hour ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

0

Q: On the Closure of English Language Learners

Proposal: English Language Learners I wasn't sure about the need for this site when it was proposed. But in keeping with the spirit and purpose of Area 51, I asked the Community Team to keep an open mind and let the process of ideas and development run its course through Definition. So now look...

culture closed-proposals

It's not even that far up on the transcript, for goodness's sake.

Matt Эллен

oh right, I was in the middle of ranting on meta... brb

Cerberus

"For goodness's sake".

KitFox

Mmm, sake.

MετάEd

6:22 PM

@Cerberus I think that would have been nice. But ELL has apparently failed, for now.

@Cerberus If ELU keeps its house clean then ELL will become more viable I should think.

KitFox

It's really irritating.

The proposal has lots of support.

And he just snaps his fingers and says no.

MετάEd

@KitFox I think something called the "community team" said no. That was invisible to me: I had no idea there was basically a veto team out there.

That's something to take into consideration from this point forward.

Buy-in from the community team.

Cerberus

@MετάEd God, I hate those people so much.

MετάEd

@Cerberus That may be, but that's not constructive. It makes it hard to work with them to get something done that you want.

David Wallace

@Cerberus Despite the fact that they have provided a wonderful resource for you to use free of charge?

Cerberus

6:27 PM

@MετάEd That was the idea! No people complaining here about GR questions, ELL get to answer their questions, everybody happy!

MετάEd

@Cerberus Right. Well my feeling is that an ELL is more likely to see the light of day if ELU will actually keep its house clean.

Cerberus

@MετάEd We never get what we want anyway, it has been proven again and again, so that doesn't matter. Besides, I don't freaking care.

@DavidWallace Yes.

MετάEd

And I would like to see ELU change its name.

It needs to have the word "advanced" or "expert" in it, in such a way that it is clearly a site for experts, not just staffed by experts.

Cerberus

@MετάEd You think they will give in after just having shot out whole proposal?

I'm sick of this.

Let them do whatever they want.

MετάEd

@Cerberus It isn't a matter of giving in. This is not a range war. This strikes me as a disagreement over what will be viable.

Cerberus

6:30 PM

It strikes me as arbitrary.

simchona

@Cerberus Me too.

Cerberus

And not very informed.

MετάEd

Basically for a new site to work, it has to demonstrate that it is viable. I think the point of Area 51 is to demonstrate that. If the people who put Area 51 together and are looking for new site ideas are not buying in to ELL, then those who think ELL needs to happen need to listen and figure out what to do differently.

Cerberus

@simchona Thanks.

simchona

Like, you're in commitment? Never mind, we don't like you anyway.

Cerberus

6:31 PM

Yeah.

simchona

@MετάEd We were in commitment. We had a definition. We weren't even allowed into Beta

Cerberus

Yeah, why not let us try? What's the harm?

MετάEd

Okay, so the "community team" is not well informed. So inform them. Make constructive comments and answers on the "why we closed it" thread that was posted.

I did.

Cerberus

@MετάEd This has nothing to to with science or an informed decision, because there is no harm in trying. No, it smells of bureaucracy and arbitrariness, like many other things.

@MετάEd Yes, my compliments.

But I already know nothing is going to come of it.

They never listen.

I respect tough decisions. But not this.

Well, never mind me.

I'll crawl back into my hole.

And grump on my own.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus why on your own? we can all grump together!

Cerberus

6:36 PM

You're too friendly!

You wouldn't.

KitFox

@Cerberus Well, to be fair, there is harm in trying.

Cerberus

In trying what?

KitFox

Just in trying. There is harm.

Cerberus

In trying the beta?

KitFox

Yes.

Cerberus

6:37 PM

What harm?

KitFox

Well, it requires resources and time commitment. It has the potential of irrevocably splitting an existing community in a bad way.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I wouldn't what? Grump? Maybe I misunderstand what grumpping is.

Cerberus

What resources? Hosting the site? And what time commitment? Surely they have a template?

KitFox

Don't be one of those people, @Cerb. Those kind of people make me very angry.

Cerberus

As to this split, why would we split up instead of answering questions on both sites at the same time? I would?

@KitFox If you don't want to argue, then let's not.

KitFox

6:40 PM

You would, but would you equally? Would I?

I'd rather shoot fish in a barrel with a breeze than listen to my people bitch about my decisions here.

Cerberus

@KitFox Probably yes. I have been addicted to an ELL site. It was great fun. I have answered lots more questions than here, mainly because they just take far less time.

KitFox

And for those who would bridge, there would inevitably be a schism over what should be migrated or not.

It could be bad. It could be good.

But you can't say that it wouldn't have some sort of impact.

simchona

@KitFox Shying away from impact doesn't help anyone, though

There are risks with anything

KitFox

I'm not arguing that.

MετάEd

@KitFox I don't see a schism occurring. People will simply carry on. The occasional gray area question will get moderated across the border.

KitFox

6:43 PM

I'm countering Cerb's claim that there is no harm in trying.

MετάEd

Lots of the ELL questions here will not get migrated. They will just get deleted.

They are too local for migration to do anybody any good.

simchona

I think we should still close things as GR.

Just because we can't have ELL doesn't mean all that crap is good here

MετάEd

@simchona Yes.

Post that as a meta.

simchona

It's basically just an answer to @MattЭллен's question there

MετάEd

Have you read the first sentence of the "GR" close reason? This question is too basic.

Matt Эллен

6:45 PM

@simchona then what do we do with the basic questions that are only suitable for ELL, of which we have loads, that are apparently on topic for here?

sorry

simchona

@MattЭллен Just because the Team says they are, doesn't mean that they are

Cerberus

@KitFox "Some sort of impact", sure. "The potential of irrevocably splitting the community in a bad way"?

Matt Эллен

my rage at Robert is spilling over

3

KitFox

3 mins ago, by KitFox

I'm countering Cerb's claim that there is no harm in trying.

Cerberus

@KitFox The split between ELU and linguistics (many Ling questions came from here, whether closed or open) happened without any friction, or did it?

KitFox

6:47 PM

That is beside the point.

Cerberus

This discussion is probably not going to solve anything, so let's change the subject.

KitFox

I find it charming the way Excel blocks me from using my own macros in order to protect me.

Cerberus

Just look at this list.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox it's like an overbearing parent

Cerberus

Robotics and Portuguese seem OK.

Tridion, no idea.

KitFox

6:52 PM

@Cerberus That's not changing the subject.

Cerberus

The rest?

@KitFox Which subject?

halo

David Wallace

People, you all seem to be forgetting something. This entire network is Joel Spolsky's house. We are visitors. He has opened up lots of rooms in his house, for us to play various games. But if he doesn't want us to play the "help pineapples with their English" game, that is his right. We should be saying "thank you Mr Spolsky for allowing us to play the games that we DO play".

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…