The h Bar

Jim

12:00

@Kenshin If they can't explain it to you in a way that you'd agree with, I think that indicates either a problem with your (general "you") reasoning or, much more likely, that it's not a good enough reason

@Kenshin sounds like you just encountered a specific example. Care to share?

Kenshin

@Jim no specific example I've just been thinking about this. For example, if someone loves to study, is it because people love learning or is it because that person has been conditioned to associate studying with something good

See if one tries to work out what people find to be good, it's hard to disentangle what's been conditioned upon them, and what is naturally found to be good

advertising exploits this to try to condition people into thinking their products are good. Teachers like teaching students the right way to behave etc.

Often by rewarding students with something that is actually good when they do something the teacher wants the students to think of as good (or punishing them for the reverse)

Jim

either way, studying would still be a means to an end

Kenshin

yes so I'm wondering what are the main "ends" that people tend to have

and it's hard to know what is an "end" vs what has been conditioned to feel good

Just win baby

$ for one

Kenshin

Clearly the joy of eating is a real good, but even then McDonalds has made a business of making people feel more good about eating their product by including play grounds etc.

Jim

12:05

if you've been conditioned so that it feels good. Achieving the good feeling might be the ends

Kenshin

@Jim But conditioning ultimately requires associating some experience with a good experience

So there must be some original and real good feelings

Jim

must there? If in doubt, try asking them

Kenshin

There must, because if there weren't, conditioning wouldn't be possiblle

for example, they say "sex sells":

Just win baby

because it does

Kenshin

so sex is likely a natural good feeling, and then attempts are made to associate products with sex

Jim

12:07

perhaps they were conditioned with direct dopamine release. Then there's no alternate experience they try to achieve, other than the good feeling

Kenshin

@Jim I agree with you that ultimately people are motivated by feeling good

@Jim But I think there are some natural things that make people feel good before any conditioning

Bernardo Meurer

I am motivated by segmentation faults

Just win baby

food sells when you're hungry

Sir Cumference

@Kenshin For every action?

Jim

@BernardoMeurer agreed

Kenshin

12:09

@SirCumference potentially, but I'm not 100% sure

Sir Cumference

Eh I'd dispute. Soldiers give their lives for the happiness of others

Certainly not their own

Jim

@Justwinbaby hunger sells not from a desire to feel good, but from a desire to feel not bad. However, going from bad to neutral is pretty much the same as going from neutral to good, so you could argue it's the same thing

Kenshin

@SirCumference so what motivates soldiers?

Sir Cumference

Other people

Jim

the idea that sacrificing for others is good

Kenshin

12:11

@SirCumference I'd then argue that making other people feel good is a conditioned learning

0celouvskyopoulo7

@Kenshin the tears of children, hopefully

Sir Cumference

Elaborate?

Just win baby

@Jim true

Kenshin

Usually when you make others feel good you are rewarded (either through empathy or directly). Thus this becomes conditioned in the sense that your brain associates doing good for others as a good thing

Have you heard of Pavlov's dog?

Just win baby

this is Psychology

Sir Cumference

12:12

Even if it's your life you must forfeit?

Kenshin

yes

Jim

@Kenshin not necessarily. Social collaboration is coded into us instinctively, as pack animals. Sacrificing yourself for the good of many has survival advantages for the species and so, understandably, may not be conditioned learning as much as it may be natural behaviour

Sir Cumference

Ehh

Kenshin

the power of conditioning is strong, so strong that most human behaviour is simply habititual actions resulting from being conditioned

Take drug addiction

another example wher people will die over conditioning

Sir Cumference

@Jim If someone tried to hurt your pet, you might risk getting hurt to defend it

Jim

12:13

lemmings, for example

Sir Cumference

It's not just our species

Kenshin

@Jim Jim you're right. But it again brings me back to my earlier point, it's very hard to disentangle what is conditioned and what makes us feel good in its own right

Jim

@SirCumference because we see pets as part of the family. It's like children. Most animals would die to defend their young (stupid turtles)

Sir Cumference

That's my point. We're not solely acting for our own species

Jim

@Kenshin try asking the person first

Kenshin

12:15

@Jim but the person usually doesn't know

I ask myself

Just win baby

The Axon Terminal

General discussion for psychology.stackexchange.com

2

ask here^

Jim

that'll work

Just win baby

:)

Kenshin

Dude noeone knows

that was my point earlier

it is intersting how little we know about our own motivations

Sir Cumference

Anyone here like philosophy?

Kenshin

12:16

Of course bro, this discussion borders on philosophy

0celouvskyopoulo7

I need to unthaw a block of pig by tonight. How do I do it?

Kenshin

HEre is another question. Do people like money to maximize wealth, or is maximising wealth simply a means to minimizing ruin?

Sir Cumference

@Kenshin Yup. I've found the subject surprisingly cool. Didn't ever think I'd like a philosophy class as much as hard science

The two are very different

Kenshin

Yeah even Einstein loved philosophy

they're different subjects but great minds that like physics will also like philosophy

Sir Cumference

Yeah. Though philosophy manages to spin my head even more than physics

Kenshin

12:19

Yeah because we know less about it

The laws of physics probably used to spin the heads of physicists before Newton

Slereah

they still do

Kenshin

maybe at the level of QFT yea

Slereah

even classical mechanics can be fairly hard

conceptually

Kenshin

I believe however that as science improves, most questions of philosophy will be answered scientifically

Sir Cumference

Eh, much of philosophy is not supposed to be answered, but to make you think

Slereah

12:22

Well a lot of philosophy can't be answered

Kenshin

A lot of philosophy is stupid questions

Slereah

because the scientific process rests on some philosophical assumptions

Sir Cumference

^

Slereah

Which can be questioned in philosophy

Kenshin

analgous to "what happens if I go faster than the speed of light" etc.

As science improves, the stupid questions become apparant

Sir Cumference

12:23

Nah, some is like the cosmological argument, as an example

Which is pretty awesome

Kenshin

even that could be answered through greater understanding of physics

Slereah

Part of the issue with philosophy was the big split of continental vs analytic philosophy

Also post modernist bullshit

But at its core philosophy is an interesting topic

reading some real philosophy of science can be quite interesting

Kenshin

When we have a complete model of how the brain works, moral philosophy will move to the realm of science

Sir Cumference

That's a nice philosophy, @Kenshin

Kenshin

ty

So do people maximise wealth in order to avoid ruin, or do they avoid ruin in order to maximise wealth?

Slereah

12:28

People have a variety of motivations

Just win baby

greed is one of them

Kenshin

Why are people greedy?

to ensure they are never ruined?

Slereah

A variety of reason

Money as u may be aware is of some importance in modern society

Kenshin

@Slereah and where do these reasons come from

Slereah

Hence there is some emphasis placed on acquiring it

Also by association

Money is associated with the Higher Class

Status symbol

Comfortable living

etc etc

Just win baby

12:30

they always want more because they can never get enough

Avantgarde

I think greed, at various levels, is a product of evolution

Kenshin

@Slereah but I ask then why is money associated with status and higher class etc.?

Slereah

See also

Kenshin

I think it is because money is a means of minimizing ruin

Slereah

Money didn't use to be so big

In the olden days it was more social status that was important

Nobility was much better for a high status

Money was for the plebs

Kenshin

12:32

and why is social status important

Slereah

and of course until rather recently, money was pretty rarely used

Because we r ape

Kenshin

so social status is of fundemental importance?

Slereah

We want to be top monkey

Avantgarde

In the olden days, though, most people who had high social status were very rich (aka aristocracy)

Slereah

Yes.

True, but plenty of low class people had money

And they were often reviled by the aristocracy

Merchants were pretty poorly considered

And the court jew?

Kenshin

12:33

@Slereah well this is progress. I'm curious to know all the fundementaly important factors. So far I have food, water, oxygen, and social status

Slereah

Veryrich

and very reviled

Avantgarde

I don't know what that is. Let me wiki

Slereah

u may be interested in the analysis of stimulus

Kenshin

But I do question whether social stuat is fundemental. Perhaps it is again a conditioned response because those with low social status feel suffering (e.g. through lack of resrouces)

Slereah

It is an interesting thing for that kind of study

ACuriousMind

12:35

@Kenshin Maslov is far ahead of you.

Slereah

It's the emotional reaction associated to a stimulus

Kenshin

@ACuriousMind Maslov's looks like guess work to me though

everyone quotes MAslov but I don't believe the human mind works like a pyramid

Slereah

emotion-research.net/projects/humaine/ws/plenary2005/modeling/…

for instance

Also plz consider this

Kenshin

and "self actualisation" seems more like a religion to me than science @ACuriousMind

ACuriousMind

@Kenshin No one claims the "human mind works like a pyramid".

Slereah

12:36

In evolutionary science, it is very common for more than one strategy to evolve in the same species

This corresponds to different types of personalities in humans

because it makes the group more flexible to react to different situations

Hence people will have different priorities

Kenshin

ty for that linke @Slereah

ACuriousMind

@Kenshin Then you haven't understood what it means - it's neither, it's supposed to describe a person's desire to "fulfill their potential".

Kenshin

@ACuriousMind but I"m not sure that is a real human desire. I believe it is a conditioend response

and I don't believe Maslow's work has proven that is either

ACuriousMind

What distinguishes a "real human desire" from "conditioned responses"

Avantgarde

Well, human desire is heavily influenced by outside factors

Kenshin

12:38

@ACuriousMind you can condition a human with any stimuli

Slereah

Not actually true

Kenshin

@ACuriousMind I can condition a human to want Mcdonalds, so should this brand appear in the hierachy?

@ACuriousMind clearly we are wishing to understand the fundemental needs, not the conditioned needs

ACuriousMind

@Kenshin "Proven", heh, certainly not. The soft sciences have to content themselves with far less rigorous standards.

Kenshin

@ACuriousMind I agree the need to eat is a real human desire. But the need to play video games isn't

The later is conditioned

Slereah

@Kenshin You can condition a human to be averse to human relationships

or sunlight

are those not real human desires

Kenshin

12:40

@Slereah that's right, and that's why I like to ignore the conditioned desires

and focus on the real desires

Slereah

The real human desires are to reproduce conditions that triggered a dopamine response

That is the real human desire

ACuriousMind

@Kenshin That's because you're comparing two different things there. It's not "the need to play video games", it's a "need for diversion", or a "need for entertainment".

"playing video games" is not on the level of "eating" - the proper comparison would be "eating bananas", which is certainly not a fundamental need

Kenshin

@ACuriousMind the brain doesn't care the brain just feels happiness. My point is some activities are conditioned to be pleasurable. I think self actualisation is conditioned rather than inate

Slereah

So in other words there are no real human desires

p. short list

Kenshin

wrong

eating is a real one

breathing is a real one

Slereah

12:42

Is it

ACuriousMind

@Kenshin And how is that belief of yours any less arbitrary than what you accuse Maslow's hierarchy to be?

Kenshin

these aren't conditioned

Slereah

Are you sure tho

How would u prove this

Kenshin

@ACuriousMind I hven't published my work, it's still speculation as I consider maslow's work to be

Slereah

Maybe you could condition someone to be averse to eating

ACuriousMind

12:42

lol

Slereah

ie

anorexia

Kenshin

Maslow also belives you don't seek the higher needs until you satisify the lower needs

ACuriousMind

"I can't tell you it's a secret" is not an argument.

Kenshin

@ACuriousMind you misunderstood my point

Just win baby

welcome to psych 101 @BalarkaSen

Kenshin

12:43

@ACuriousMind My believe was stated above (not a secret), but my believe above isn't published because as you said it's not science yet, just like MAslows isn't either

Balarka Sen

is kenshin discussing his narrow sensory psycho-somatic philosophy again

Just win baby

yup

Slereah

He's being a big old dummy as usual

Balarka Sen

yeah no

ACuriousMind

@Kenshin I'm pretty certain Maslow is published, if that's your criterion.

Slereah

12:44

a big thicky bobo

as one might say

Balarka Sen

i will not have anything to do with this convo

Slereah

A smart move

Kenshin

@ACuriousMind mate stop trolling. Maslow's isn't Scientific (as opposed to not published)

People who are satisfied with Maslow are like those satisfied with the ether before Einstein. The theory is clearly BS and accepting it is just mental laziness

ACuriousMind

@Kenshin Writing science with a captial S does not make your assertions any more scientific than you accuse his to be.

Slereah

I have a geometrothermodynamics question

It is hot

How do I modify the curvature of the geometrothermodynamic contact manifold to be less hot

Bernardo Meurer

12:47

@JohnRennie Get me a job

Kenshin

@ACuriousMind I understand why you and many others might be drawn to Maslow, because it provides some structure to an otherwise complicated topic, but people are drawn to it in the same way they are drawn to religion. To provide some answers to the unknown. The truth is, human needs are not nicely structured as Maslow portraits them to be.

Avantgarde

so what's your solution?

Sir Cumference

@Kenshin Because neurons

Balarka Sen

My one and only psychological need is to create and propagate hate.

Slereah

@SirCumference because of the boundary conditions of the universe

Balarka Sen

12:51

Hate in the truest and the most unadulterated sense.

Avantgarde

so vile

Kenshin

@Avantgarde well to put the discussion in context we were discussing the intricacies of human needs, and some dude comes along as says "Maslow" like as if it solves all our problems - but it doesn't.

Avantgarde

I don't think he mentioned that it solved all the problems, but that it provided a structural way of looking at it

Balarka Sen

I think we should all read psychology in greater depths than the first sentence of the wikipedia page or something and then indulge in these discussions.

Kenshin

@Avantgarde well he said "Maslow is far ahead of you", but in fact he is behind me as I am already aware of his work and the numerous criticisms of it

Avantgarde

12:55

So you have managed to come up with your own theory?

Kenshin

@Avantgarde No but I have a good understanding of what is known to date

and science has moved far away from Maslow

Sha Vuklia

Guys, say we have $12$ lamps of $50$ Watts on a plate. Is there an easy way to guess what the power is on a surface parallel to this plate, on a distance of $50$ cm?

Slereah

Sha Vuklia

This is how our set-up looks like

Avantgarde

what is that

ACuriousMind

12:59

@ShaVuklia Guess: 50 W :P

Sha Vuklia

@ACurious but 50W is what comes from the lamp right?

we should take 20% for the light

that's what our teaching assistance told us

ACuriousMind

Ah, the Watts are just what the lamps draw

Then you need to know their efficiency, yes

Sha Vuklia

and then take into account that there is a distance $50-55 cm$

well let's guess the efficiency at 20%

so the (perpendicular) distance is 50 cm

ACuriousMind

And of course not the entire power radiated by them will be on the plate - I'm not sure there is a good way to guess how to model how the power is radiated without measuring it

Sha Vuklia

well the point is

we measured it

but we got 240 W

and that seems way too little

due to other experiments done

we measured it on 9 points (3 above, 3 in the middle, 3 below)

and then averaged it

ACuriousMind

13:02

Might be better to consider the plate a point source and go with a 1/r^2 dependence, might be better to consider it, well, an infinite plate and then the power on the plate would just be the power radiated. The truth is, of course, somewhere in between

@ShaVuklia Wait, your lamp setup draws just 600 W. If the efficiency is 20% then you should at most measure 120W.

Sha Vuklia

okay,

@ACuriousMind ohhhh, gee

Mostafa

What did measure exactly? The heat is still radiated as infrared

Slereah

Is there a good source for the definitions of the various types of horizons in GR

Found a good paper on trapped surfaces, horizons is a bit trickier

arxiv.org/pdf/1612.01084.pdf

this one isn't too bad but could be better

Mostafa

Finally....one of wisdom teeth hurts a little. What the hell should I do now? :(

Sha Vuklia

@Mostafa We used the following meter:

Avantgarde

13:05

Congratulations. You're now a wise old man :)

Sha Vuklia

this is a picture that i found online

but we had the same one basically

so we measured the light, and didn't take into account that the edges might get warmer too

Avantgarde

@Mostafa No idea though. See a dentist?

Mostafa

@Avantgarde I guess it has to be removed

Just win baby

i've had that done

i never returned to that dentist

Mostafa

@Justwinbaby (ಠ_ಠ)

Balarka Sen

13:10

@Mostafa I have a paragraph or two for you that might be of interest.

Let me find it.

Mostafa

@Avantgarde A dentist told me to extract it 6 months ago

Avantgarde

Why would the dentist need your tooth?

@Mostafa And? You got dentophobia? Is that what it's called?

Balarka Sen

authorama.com/notes-from-the-underground-5.html

Mostafa

@Avantgarde I hate dentists. They're even lower than other doctors

They don't heal anything

Just remove, seal, drill, fill, bill, ....

Just win baby

they seem to get pleasure from giving pain

Avantgarde

13:14

lol okay. But it's better to have a mouth that's just about fine than one that aches

Slereah

@Mostafa Obviously you've never had a cavity go bad :p

Mostafa

@Slereah No. never.

Balarka Sen

@Avantgarde Well, the aching mouth is worth having just for the sweet sweet gratification.

Of propagating pain.

Just win baby

@addicted to what?

Sid

No, dentists are great if they don't have instruments on their hands.

Avantgarde

13:18

fangs of tooth extraction

Just win baby

the worst is the root canal

Sid

I would actually prefer they give me an anaesthetic and then do their extracting.

Avantgarde

Isn't that what they do?

Mostafa

Never do a root canal unless really really necessary.
That's just a business for them

Just win baby

he only gave me a couple of numbing needles

Avantgarde

13:21

for root canal or extraction?

Anonymous

I have learnt basic java programming. Now which is better for coding practice: TopCoder or HackerRank or something else? Ideas anyone? (TopCoder's interface looks a bit strange to me)

Just win baby

@Avantgarde both

Avantgarde

I see

Anonymous

@Justwinbaby I can't do both simultaneously :P

Just win baby

sorry

should've used @

Mostafa

13:24

I think when you sleep it gets worse. Maybe I should stay awake until I go to a dentist

Balarka Sen

did you read what I linked

Just win baby

tl;dr

Mostafa

@BalarkaSen Half of it

Balarka Sen

you should not feel the urge to go to the dentist now then

Just win baby

if the pain is bad enough go

Mostafa

13:27

@Justwinbaby The problem is that it may damage the tooth next to it

This is a HUGE HUGE bug in the human body. We need to find a way to regrow teeth ASAP.

Isn't it more important than finding out what's inside a blackhole??!

Secret

[Philosophy Bomb]
Why there seemed to be so many parallels across different religions?

Is it a coincidence, a reflection of the underlying laws of reality, or just a manifestation of the way human brains are wired?

Just win baby

@Mostafa i know, they want you back

Balarka Sen

you will eventually convince yourself that the toothache, to the intelligent man, is a weapon, which can be used to cause humiliation and suffering to your neighboring human beings, and extract pleasure out of it. if you fail to cause suffering, you will suffer for that reason yourself, and extract self-gratification out of your own suffering

so there is net sadomasochistic gain out of this.

Avantgarde

go home, Balarka

Balarka Sen

i am home bruh

Avantgarde

13:29

go to your room, crawl under your bed and just sleep

Just win baby

20 mins ago, by Just win baby

i never returned to that dentist

just get done what needs to be done

Balarka Sen

i am in my room, digging a ten feet hole under my bed

and i will crawl down that hole

and sleep

and die

Anonymous

Don't worry. Digging a ten feet hole will take you eternity. :D

Balarka Sen

I will die anyway, so I am winning either ways.

Just win baby

you're too young to want to die

because only the good die young :P

ACuriousMind

13:34

Lighten up a little, people :P Death isn't that fun a topic.

Just win baby

Only the Good Die Young

"Only the Good Die Young" is a song from Billy Joel's 1977 pop rock album, The Stranger. It was the third of four singles released from the album. The song was controversial for its time, with the lyrics written from the perspective of a young man determined to deflower a Catholic girl. == Song information == The song was inspired by a high school crush of Joel's, Virginia Callahan. The boy/narrator believes that the girl is refusing him because she comes from a religious Catholic family and that she believes premarital sex is sinful. He sings, Attempts to censor the song only made it more popular...

Secret

Mostafa

@ACuriousMind I strongly suggest you quit string theory that has not (and most probably will not) delivered anything, and join stem cell researchers and do something useful to the humanity

Sid

good idea then would be to turn evil.:P

Avantgarde

lol

yeah it'd be great if there was a quick way to grow new teeth

Anonymous

13:37

No need to grow teeth. Just transplant them. XD

Just win baby

@Secret swans and/or elephants?

Balarka Sen

@ACuriousMind Ok

Mostafa

@Avantgarde Sharks are already doing it. We just need to find out how they do it

Just win baby

@BalarkaSen the original just passed away

Slereah

Avantgarde

13:43

@Mostafa Yeah, I remember hearing about that long ago

Balarka Sen

@Justw Jack Nicholson is still alive?

Just win baby

no batman

Slereah

He is

He has aged poorly

Balarka Sen

Ah, the original Batman

Just win baby

yes

Balarka Sen

13:44

I forgot his name... what's the damn name...

Avantgarde

bruce

Sid

Nicholson was the original joker

Balarka Sen

Keaton, right

it seems he's still alive though

@Sid Yeah but he's the oldest in the series so for some reason I assumed that it was Nicholson we were talking about

Not sure why but I did

googling says it's the Adam West, the original from the show

Just win baby

yes

Balarka Sen

I have never watched the show.

It looked more like a comedy cult

Just win baby

13:48

old school

Sid

Nicholson was way better than the crap that Leto came up with.

Balarka Sen

I hate that guy

Sid

Ledger is still ahead though.

Balarka Sen

But I think Heath Ledger nailed it

Nolan's series is waaaaay better than any of the Batman movies ever made

Anonymous

Ledger was my favorite Joker too :D

Just win baby

13:50

Nicholson is the only person to win two academy awards

Balarka Sen

Dark Knight is gotta be the best superhero movie I can come up with off the top of my head

i am not big on superheroes but there's that

maybe make that "comic superhero"

Just win baby

Nicholson's 12 Academy Award nominations make him the most nominated male actor in the Academy's history.

Balarka Sen

I haven't watched a lot of his movies

Just win baby

he's ok, if you like dry humour

Sid

Nicholson was really badass in "A Few good Men".

Balarka Sen

13:55

Ok, here's a suggestion: if any of you appreciate Batman, and you like Nolan's trilogy, look at "A Serious House on Serious Earth". This was Grant Morrison's debut graphic novel; it's based on the batman storyline but is actually a psychological horror comic

Just win baby

thanks, i'll check it out

The Axon Terminal

Transcript for