@rob I realized something - this I/me thing can't be about the "degeneration of the case system" - I read a book by Louisa May Alcott a while ago, she was from the 1800s, and her book (Eight Cousins) specifically has a character correct another character, from saying "_ and me" to "_ and I".

@heather I think the English case system was well on its way to extinction in the 1800s, and without knowing the context one could also suspect that that correction is intentionally wrong.

er...the context was that of an adult portrayed as quite wise correcting a child, so i don't think the correction was intentionally wrong.

as for the former objection, fair enough, in which case it's probably better to say "and I" because it's more commonly accepted as correct, so it makes you look better.

@heather Wait, in what kind of sentence is "and me" corrected to "and I" here?

I mean, there are sentences where 'me' is correct and there are sentences where 'I' is correct.

@ACuriousMind The two are having a conversation, and the kid says "[person's name] and me" and is corrected to "[person's name] and I"

more than that I don't remember.

Yeah, that's not enough to tell whether it's correct or not.

'me' is correct if it is the object of the sentence, 'I' if it is the subject.

what's the difference?

So you having read that in that book doesn't actually tell us anything :P

I mean, could you give an example of the difference?

@ACuriousMind heh, okay

@heather I'm not sure I understand what you're asking for - are you asking what "subject" and "object" mean gramatically?

i'm asking for an example of a sentence where "I" is used as the object, and one where "I" is used as the subject, as I'm not sure I understand the difference.

"I hit him." - here "I" is the subject and "him" the object. "He hit me" - here "me" is the object and "he" the subject. Using either in place of the other would be wrong.

ah, I see.

"She and I do better than most." - what would "I" be here?

Part of the subject, and therefore correct.

right, and most would be the object?

The subject is "She and I", and the sentence has no object.

oh...

huh.

No, "than most" is an adverbial phrase, not an object

They don't teach formal grammar in your school, apparently? :P

none of the several schools i've been to, no.

=/

In general, the subject is the thing carrying out the action described in the sentence, while the object is the thing affected by it

right, that makes sense

This doesn't really work if the verb is in passive voice, but it's true enough for most verbs in the active voice

Is the term "adverbial phrase" referring to the combination of the adverb and the verb it describes?

English grammar in Physics chat? LOL

so "most" describes "than"? would "do better" be another adverbial phrase then?

@heather "better than most" is the adverbial phrase, the verb is "do".

wow, I know nothing about grammar =P

@heather The definitive book on English grammar today is the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language by Huddleston and Pullum, at 1800 pages.

By the way, identifying subject/object is probably easiest in English through word order - non-poetic English clings pretty strongly to the subject-verb-object order.

@WillHunting thank you.

@ACuriousMind hmm, that's true, now that I think about it.

@WillHunting You'd be surprised how rarely this chat talks about actual physics :P

@heather Well, if no one taught you about it it's not your fault!

it's true. cooking tends to be a favored topic.

@ACuriousMind Same as all other SE chat rooms, always off-topic, LOL.

@ACuriousMind You just used my favourite line, it's not your fault.

oh, nice: khan academy has a course on grammar.

maybe i'll go through that (should be a little more approachable than a 1800 pg text).

@heather If you are really interested in grammar, pick up some nice books that you like. I don't think Eng SE is a good place to learn grammar.

well, i should probably stick to one project at a time.

i'm actually making progress through my physics book; it's quite exciting.

What book is it @heather?

@WillHunting Conceptual Physics, by Paul Hewitt - picked it up a while ago at a used bookstore, and I finally started seriously working through it.

amazon.com/Conceptual-Physics-10th-Paul-Hewitt/dp/0805393757/…