The h Bar

0celo7

00:01

Maybe all of science is flawed

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 No, it's the world that is flawed because it does not correspond to the ideal model in your head

0celo7

@rob Can you explain what "there is no spoon" means and why it's significant enough to be quoted in Chow et al.'s chapter on Ricci flow Harnack inequalities?

Bernardo Meurer

@0celo7 See if you like this youtube.com/watch?v=BuQG6_evFc8

@ACuriousMind You too

0celo7

@ACuriousMind The world cannot be flawed. Flawed wrt. what?

ACuriousMind

You're imposing a structure on the world - that of following mathematical laws, of bending to our feeble description of it - that you cannot ever show is actually there.

0celo7

00:04

Don't tell me Fantano likes this

Bernardo Meurer

@0celo7 He does

I like it too

0celo7

@ACuriousMind So that's why I said science is flawed

I don't understand your objection

The world cannot be flawed...I don't really know what that means.

The world...just is. It's not something that could be improved

Bernardo Meurer

Idles - Brutalism ALBUM REVIEW

►

8/10 brah

0celo7

the man is insane

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Oh, science is also flawed - because it's only ever an approximation. But it's a flaw that's both indelible and doesn't actually prevent us from making progress

@0celo7 Not with that attitude

0celo7

00:10

@ACuriousMind It's the humans that are flawed

ACuriousMind

Oh, we are also flawed, but in yet another and more different ways

Everything's flawed, basically.

0celo7

@ACuriousMind World = universe in that context

Bernardo Meurer

What the fuck are you guys talking about?

ACuriousMind

But in interesting ways

0celo7

@ACuriousMind I haven't thought about building a nuke and ending it all until this conversation

Thank you for the idea

ACuriousMind

00:11

::raises secret FBI flag::

0celo7

I meant nuka cola, clearly

and by ending it all I meant ending thinness

...

@ACuriousMind Should I tell my advisor that there's a TeX command for $\esssup$

Oh

Maybe there isn't :P

$\essup$

Huh

his $ess.sup$ is giving me cancer

Sir Cumference

Quick question. My parents want me to do medicine. I have no interest in it.

Should I do it?

0celo7

Yes.

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 I don't think people survive in that field without a passion for it

0celo7

Unless, are you completely self-sufficient?

Bernardo Meurer

00:23

@SirCumference Absolutely no

bolbteppa

What do you want to do

Sir Cumference

@bolbteppa Well, if astronomy wasn't hell to get a job in and it payed well, I'd pick it

0celo7

@SirCumference unless you can make your own way, your parents are still your bosses

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference Why would you?

0celo7

none of this "follow your dreams" crap

Bernardo Meurer

00:24

@SirCumference Give me their phone number and I'll scream with them for you

I love fighting

Sir Cumference

@BernardoMeurer Jesus

They're certainly right that astronomy is hell to get through, what with the competition, low salary and amount of schooling needed

bolbteppa

You could do an undergrad in astronomy and do med school pre-reqs then go to med school after if you need it

Sir Cumference

@bolbteppa I don't think I'd survive in medicine without an interest though

Nor am I a fan of blood

Bernardo Meurer

@SirCumference Give me a good fight, come on

0celo7

@SirCumference I don't know what these hippies are trying to tell you, but you owe your parents for the 18 years they paid for you and wiped your butt etc.

Sir Cumference

00:27

@0celo7 That's not what I'm asking

Bernardo Meurer

20 minutes and I get them to let you do anything you want

0celo7

Unless you can pay them back the $200,000 it took to raise you or whatever, you must do what they want.

+ all of the money they're likely paying for your college

@SirCumference You're asking if you should follow their wishes or not. It's your duty to do that.

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 No I'm not. I'm asking if I should follow something I have no interest in, and might not survive in.

bolbteppa

It's a very good idea to do an undergrad before med school regardless, as long as you do the med school pre-reqs like biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, you can justify it, buy time, try astronomy and other stuff, and leave the med school door open, doesn't have to deal with blood, could do medical physics, or research, do an md-phd, etc

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference My response wasn't meant flippantly. You asked us if you should do it, but I want to know why you think you (possibly) should first.

Sir Cumference

00:29

@bolbteppa MD-PhDs are hell to get tho

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Honestly? Sod that kind of "duty".

OBE

@ACuriousMind why does having fields with compact support in field theory imply that your hilbert (fock space) is separable?

bolbteppa

You'll get into one if you are committed to getting into one

0celo7

@ACuriousMind Your parents made an investment in you, it's ridiculous to ignore that

@SirCumference ...but your parents want you to do that, no?

Otherwise why are we having this conversation

Sir Cumference

@ACuriousMind Well, astronomy is interesting as hell, but it isn't very viable as a future (in some regards)

@0celo7 Because it's not that easy to just "become a medical doctor"

0celo7

00:31

Plenty of morons do it, I'm sure you can

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 My parents didn't make an "investment" in me; I am absolutely certain they would both be furious if you ever suggested that to them as anything but a joke.

0celo7

You're not a moron

bolbteppa

@0celo7 some questions:
Is it more important to raise a child to be
(1) respectful or independent?
(2) obedient or self-reliant?
(3) well-behaved or considerate?
(4) well-mannered or curious?

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 ...that's not the point, but thanks

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference That's a possible reason to not do astronomy, not a reason to do medicine

0celo7

00:32

@ACuriousMind Then you have good parents.

Sir Cumference

@ACuriousMind Medicine pays better, you get more opportunities with an MD

bolbteppa

You could do a PhD in astronomy in an md-phd

0celo7

@SirCumference Why is it astronomy vs. medicine?

Sir Cumference

@bolbteppa That's a lot of school

0celo7

@bolbteppa You want him to get a PhD in astronomy and then go to med school, and then get another PhD?

So he's 35 when he finishes school?

bolbteppa

00:33

MD–PhD

The Doctorate of Medicine and of Philosophy (MD–PhD) is a dual doctoral degree for physician–scientists. The degree is granted by medical schools often through the Medical Scientist Training Program or other non-MSTP MD–PhD programs. The National Institutes of Health currently provides 43 medical schools with Medical Scientist Training Program grants that support the training of students in MD–PhD programs at these institutions through tuition and stipend allowances. These programs are often competitive, with some admitting as few as two students per academic year. The MCAT score and GPA of MD...

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 Most astronomers start working at 35. I'd probably be 40 if I get an MD-PhD

0celo7

What does an astronomer even do?

Sir Cumference

Study the Universe, figure out cool stuff like what's out there and how the universe will evolve

OBE

wait what are you guys talking about?

bolbteppa

Clearly they just study Weinberg's cosmology

OBE

00:34

@SirCumference you're quitting astro?

Sir Cumference

@OBE Well, I never really planned to do it as a professional

My favorite comment is here

1

Q: Astronomy as a profession for moderately good software engineer

I'm a software engineer (a moderately good one). I like programming, mathematics and I love everything about astronomy. What would be best way to go ahead?

software

> Get a PhD with a hot professor at a top school and write a killer Dissertation: Many publications, lots of High profile collaborators. Do a couple very productive post docs, and prove you can write fundable grant proposals, by doing so repeatedly. Beat all the other candidates in the academic interview process. Write, and get, big grants. Write highly cited papers in major peer reviewed journals.

> Play department politics at least until they grant you tenure, then repeat the grant, papers, politics thing til age 65. Or, you could stick to doing Astronomy as a dedicated amateur.

Goddamn

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference That's a (weak, in my eyes, but whatever) reason to do medicine instead of astronomy, not a reason to do medicine.

0celo7

^

That's my question

Sir Cumference

@ACuriousMind Well, rephrased: Pays well, lots of opportunities

0celo7

Why the medicine/asto dichotomy

ACuriousMind

00:37

@SirCumference Lots of things pay well. Why medicine?

0celo7

Why not astro/useful job dichotomy

Because that's what it really is.

Sir Cumference

@ACuriousMind That's what they're insisting

Bernardo Meurer

@SirCumference Let me fight them, please

Sir Cumference

@BernardoMeurer ...No thanks

0celo7

@SirCumference so is it about your parents or not?

Sir Cumference

00:40

@0celo7 ...

0celo7

@SirCumference why not something in the middle?

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference That's not really a reason, either. Are you asking us "Should I do medicine?" or are you asking us "Should I do what my parents tell me?"

Sir Cumference

It's more than just "my parents tell me to do it $\therefore$ I must do it"

0celo7

@ACuriousMind oh but when I ask that it's a stupid question

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 Like what?

0celo7

00:41

engineering

Sir Cumference

Is that much better than astronomy?

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 Didn't say that. Sometimes it helps rephrasing things. I see you're trying to make the same or at least a similar point as mine.

heather

@SirCumference, I don't know anything about any of this, but here's what I'd say. Do what you love. It's better to not be rich but be happy than to be rich but miserable in your daily job. Whatever you do, you're going to be doing it for the majority of the rest of your life. Make sure it's something you want to do. =)

whether that's med school or astronomy.

Sir Cumference

@heather That's valuable advice, I appreciate it. But it's tough, since astronomy is so darn hard to do as a professional

0celo7

@ACuriousMind I have very strong views on the duty of children. If SC doesn't care about that fine. But I don't really understand his problem unless it's a "should I do what my parents want me to do" thing

And I don't know how strongly his parents feel about this

If they disown him if he doesn't do medicine, that's different than if they would like him to do medicine

Sir Cumference

00:43

@0celo7 Quite strongly

@0celo7 They think I'm making a huge mistake if I don't do it

0celo7

So they won't pay for college unless you do medicine?

@SirCumference Yeah, you probably are. But who cares about that?

heather

dude, 0celo!

astronomy isn't a "mistake"

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 ...uh, "who cares"?

heather

heck, everyone always says that stuff that doesn't pay well as a mistake. for once and for all, it isn't. do what you'll like to do for the rest of your life so you can live a happy one!

0celo7

@SirCumference I'm saying the only one who can tell us if it's a mistake is you in 20 years once you pick

So it's not really relevant

Sir Cumference

00:45

@0celo7 welp...

0celo7

No one is going to be able to tell you which is a mistake

Sir Cumference

Now I'm where I started

bolbteppa

If you do what your parents want you to do and you don't really want to do it, you'll massively regret it someday

4

Bernardo Meurer

@SirCumference Here's my honest experience. I'm the son of a dentist, and a lawyer, both of which were born in farms in Brazil, and none of which know or care for science. My mother as far as I can tell would've liked for me to do something in culture, and my father would like me to be a lawyer. They never quite pressured me to go their way, but I always felt like I was a disappointment to them by becoming a Computer Engineer, also, they both absolutely despise computers. [TBC]

0celo7

@BernardoMeurer Michelle is still a disappointment to Bob

That and she's a girl

Her turning to banking only confirmed his bias that women have no place in STEM

Bernardo Meurer

00:47

@SirCumference Mostly because of academic reasons my relationship with my parents has greatly deteriorated, to the point where I talk more to @0celo7's older sisters than to any of my parents, and even though I cannot say I regret one bit of it. I just don't think I'd be as useful for the world doing anything else apart from computer engineering.

See the talent you have, take pride in it and dive head in into the field you love, because otherwise I don't think there's much else to live for, apart from superficial stuff

Sir Cumference

Ok, I'll take what you guys are saying into account

Thanks

0celo7

@SirCumference My honest advice is that you need to figure out if you want to do medicine because your QoL will be better if you do it or because your parents want you to do it.

You're arguing the former, but your intense focus on medicine doesn't make sense without the latter.

If it's the latter, you will be miserable.

vzn

@heather consider you might feel differently after being reqd to pay for a living

0celo7

Also this^

Bernardo Meurer

@SirCumference I think it was Einstein who said "Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile", I try to think of that a lot, would I be doing better to society as a shitty lawyer or as a good engineer? I believe the latter.

ACuriousMind

00:50

@heather Ah, that's bright advice but people change. I'm not saying there's not a ring of truth to it but "the rest of your life" is a very long time. You may well find in 10, or 20, or 30 years that you don't love what you once did. That doesn't mean that was a mistake, but you also need to be wary of doing thing because they once were your dream.

0celo7

@SirCumference Don't take advice from a bunch of people who are living high on the horse from parents or scholarships or whatever.

vzn

@BernardoMeurer lol sorry dont think that was einstein...

heather

@vzn i freely admit that i don't know what it's all like, but I do know that right now, i'd rather be happy and be poor than be unhappy and rich. that's a proverb in many cultures, it's not just me.

@vzn actually, remember that quote, i think it was.

Bernardo Meurer

@0celo7 I'm not living "high on the horse" :/

Sir Cumference

@heather Your job is more than how you support yourself tho, it's how you support your children and family

Bernardo Meurer

00:51

@heather That's easier said than done

0celo7

@heather You're only saying that because you're not poor

Sir Cumference

I do appreciate @heather's advice, tho it's tough to balance things like that

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Proverbs can be bullshit, don't guide yourself by "common knowledge"

0celo7

@BernardoMeurer I know, but I also think your judgement is clouded by your relationship with your parents

heather

@BernardoMeurer i understand that. again, "i freely admit that i don't know what it's all like"

0celo7

00:52

And I can't follow your argument :P

You seem to be arguing both sides :P

Bernardo Meurer

@0celo7 Everyone's judgement is clouded by something

heather

^

vzn

@heather ahem ok googling that, it is defn attributed to him, but einstein is misquoted quite a bit & dont see the ref yet...

heather

ah, well. the point is someone said that ;)

Bernardo Meurer

@heather Moving away from home I was in the shit a couple times and heck did I question my decisions :)

Sir Cumference

00:53

All roads here lead back to Einstein

ACuriousMind

@BernardoMeurer Ah, such a simple truth rarely really acknowledged ;P

Bernardo Meurer

@0celo7 My argument?

0celo7

Can we change topics

Bernardo Meurer

@ACuriousMind I'm a cynic by nature :P

ACuriousMind

@SirCumference Think you misspelt Rome there if we're doing proverbs ;)

Bernardo Meurer

00:53

Yes let's change topics

let's talk about PROPRIETARY MALWARE

0celo7

@ACuriousMind ?

heather

@0celo7, also, for the record - I had to pay for a not insignificant amount of the books I own, etc. I worked for that by doing odd jobs, and not just around the house. So, while I'm not poor, and I'm not rich, and I don't claim to be knowledgeable about these things, I'd like to think I'm not some rich kid who doesn't know a thing about the world.

vzn

@heather ok, further digging, think youre right, apparently it was from a NYT interview. a bit surprised. einstein didnt exactly live his whole life for others it would seem... en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 I really think detailed descriptions of your bodily discharged don't belong here.

0celo7

@heather I didn't say you were rich.

ACuriousMind

00:55

→ 3 messages moved to Trash

Bernardo Meurer

@heather You know nothing about the world. Neither do I, nor do most of us

0celo7

But paying for your own books is different than struggling for rent

vzn

new topic?! another octopus lover in the news dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4332962/…

Bernardo Meurer

^

Wait until you're alone away from home and you get proper sick and you'll see the shit :P

ACuriousMind

@BernardoMeurer Think you might get a tiiiiiny bit obsessed about that? :P

0celo7

00:55

...which is why I said @SirCumference needs to talk to adults

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 We are adults

0celo7

not really

no one in this chat right now is one

Bernardo Meurer

@ACuriousMind I refuse to run half the software I need to complete my stuff this semester :^)

0celo7

@BernardoMeurer umm, how are you going to survive if you transfer?

everything has to be in Word, Excel, Matlab, or something else similar

Bernardo Meurer

I'll figure something out

LibreOffice

Matlab I'll use Octave

0celo7

00:57

@ACuriousMind I don't know why you are deleting my things

This is a chat for physicians, no?

ACuriousMind

@0celo7 There's no mystical threshhold where you become an adult and suddenly have life figured out. Everyone's struggles are different, what works for me need not work for you, and we're all making most of it up as we go along, anyway.

Bernardo Meurer

lol

I hope I get to transfer

0celo7

@ACuriousMind I'm not taking life advice from an AI, sorry :P

ACuriousMind

@BernardoMeurer Where to?

Bernardo Meurer

@ACuriousMind I'm sorry but I really dislike Europe :P

@ACuriousMind Waterloo

0celo7

00:58

Europe has the wrong shaped plugs and length/temperature measurements. It's turrble.

ACuriousMind

@BernardoMeurer To meet with defeat as Napoleon did?

vzn

@heather btw there are a bunch of respectable astronomers/ astrophysicists whove visited this room. 0celo7 says hes not even interested in gravity waves, so dont be surprised

ACuriousMind

(sorry)

Bernardo Meurer

Lol, no, Waterloo Canada you goof

ACuriousMind

@vzn You mean gravitational waves there ;) Gravity waves are fluid dynamics

@BernardoMeurer </3

vzn

00:59

@ACuriousMind right! sorry thx for the correction, gotta get those details right around here huh

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