The Awkward Silence

apaul

12:52 AM

Did I miss anything interesting today?

Looks like @Shog has been putting the foot down.

user15026

Nope. Everything's chill. :)

Catija

Chili... I prefer chili.

Spicy!

user15026

mmmm chili :)

user15026

Chili is something i don't get to eat a lot because it's hard to make chili for just one human

user15026

Without like a GIANT PILE of leftovers

sphennings

1:01 AM

@Ash that's the best part of chili!

Catija

^^ Pretty much.

The Chili is better the next day and the day after.... you can freeze it in single portions. It's great.

apaul

Made chili last night, apparently it was good, no leftovers.

Cincinnati chili

sphennings

Cook a pot on Sunday and have an easy dinner until Thursday.

Catija

And you don't even have to eat it the same way every night... frito pie one day, over a potato another day, chili dogs... :D

sphennings

Or just serve it hot in a bowl with some buttered toast to dip in it.

Catija

1:07 AM

I have to top mine with sharp cheddar and sliced avocado.

apaul

With crispy lavash bread smothered in melted mozzarella. Mmmm

What manner of chili do you all make?

Catija

Beef chili... recently with no beans... but usually with kidney beans. Texas-style. Spicy, no sweet. Can of chiles in adobo sauce.

sphennings

@Catija Sharp cheddar on top is basically a requirement.

Jesse Barnett

I just use chili when making curries or mixtures for pasta

Catija

I don't think we're talking about the same "chili"...

Jesse Barnett

1:12 AM

on that note... what on earth is the meat section of a pasta dish called? its not sauce because it has more than just sauce in it, mind blank

sphennings

@JesseBarnett You're East of the Atlantic I assume?

Jesse Barnett

yeah, I have no idea what sort of chilli you mean

Catija

Jesse Barnett

@sphennings im Australian

apaul

Usually lean towards the savory/sweet with clove, allspice, nutmeg, and a little chocolate. No beans.

sphennings

1:13 AM

@JesseBarnett That's basically as far East of the Atlantic as you can get.

Catija

Chili con carne

Chili con carne (Spanish pronunciation: [ˈtʃili koŋ ˈkaɾne]; English: chili with meat), commonly known in American English as simply "chili", is a spicy stew containing chili peppers, meat (usually beef), and often tomatoes and beans. Other seasonings may include garlic, onions, and cumin. Geographic and personal tastes involve different types of meat and ingredients. Recipes provoke disputes among aficionados, some of whom insist that the word "chili" applies only to the basic dish, without beans and tomatoes. Chili con carne is a frequent dish for cook-offs and is used as an ingredient in other...

Jesse Barnett

:D

so its a dip

you are making a dip

sphennings

It's a stew.

Catija

It's more like a soup... or stew.

Jesse Barnett

ooh, okay

sphennings

1:14 AM

It's often served as the main item of a meal.

apaul

For some reason I only like punishing spicy when deeply drunk. Probably the numbing.

Jesse Barnett

yeah, we add chilli to stews sometimes. Would not call the stew itself a chilli though

apaul

@JesseBarnett most people dip stuff in it too though.

Jesse Barnett

cool beans

apaul

@JesseBarnett takes the name because there's often a heap of chili powder in it.

sphennings

1:16 AM

@apaul Most stews I've eaten at home end up with me dipping food in it.

apaul

An awful lot of things are about pot liquor for me.

Jesse Barnett

Can you think of one other thing that has taken the name of something that is you add to it?

that you normally***

Catija

Well... as Wikipedia says... we've just abbreviated the name... It's "chili con carne" which means "chiles with meat".

apaul

Cloves?

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How do I offer gum or mints without being misinterpreted?

I love chewing gum and mints, and when I'm around a friend or friends I feel that it's rude to not offer them one like I'm just being polite but sometimes I feel misinterpreted, none of their breathes smell but once a friend actually told me when I offer him a mint that if his breath smells I sho...

apaul

1:21 AM

Not a food stuff, but clove cigarettes have a tiny amount of clove added to the tobacco. Changes the whole thing.

@ExtrovertedMainMan Isn't that a dup?

Jesse Barnett

Picked up some funny logic in a first post interpersonal.stackexchange.com/review/first-posts/7836

50/50 :D by that logic I have a 50% chance of marrying scarlet J. Either she will say yes, or she won't

hahaah

Catija

@apaul From the other direction...

apaul

@Catija ya, found the related with a quick search.

@JesseBarnett Tempted to upvote for the humor, but that would be wrong because we hate fun.

Wait... Is this close enough to close as a dup?

8

Q: How to address a friend's misunderstanding of an intention?

One of my friends often misunderstands many friendly gestures. One of them is an offer of mint candy is taken as we are suggesting he has bad breath. It seems he suspects such gestures have a hidden motive, and conversations to have hidden criticisms. Apart from these misunderstandings, he is ...

friends indonesia

sphennings

@apaul Probably.

apaul

@sphennings Ya, OP confirmed. Dups are a little strange on this site, rarely "exact duplicates" so it usually feels like a judgement call.

Jesse Barnett

1:32 AM

I think the rule of thumb is, even if their friends and circumstances are different - If they each invite the same answers with the same reasons its a dup

apaul

@JesseBarnett That's a little fuzzy though.

Very different questions can have the same answer.

Gypsy Spellweaver

It makes a good rule of thumb for finding others to evaluate as possible dupe at least.

apaul

True.

Shog9

Mmmmm... Clove cigarettes...

apaul

Speak of the devil...

Shog9

1:35 AM

Horrible things, but oh so tasty

Gypsy Spellweaver

Especially if the reasons follow the same reasoning in both.

Greetings, oh Great Hooded Pumpkin.

Shog9

Nothin makes you feel all bohemian like walking around NOLA wearing a big hat & smoking clove cigs

apaul

@Shog9 That's how I started smoking, but I can rarely finish one anymore. Still love the smell though...

Shog9

...I may not have the highest opinion of bohemians

apaul

Who does?

Shog9

1:37 AM

Can always just chew cloves and smoke something else

All the flavor, slightly less lung damage

Gypsy Spellweaver

In Colorado you have more choices than some other places.

At least legally

Shog9

And fresh, clovey breath!

Waffles

@GypsySpellweaver you should see my indoor garden right now. So lovely on a cold winter day

sphennings

They always remind me of Goth clubs.

apaul

True. Wetting a butt and dipping it in ground clove is slightly more pleasant, but you don't get that smell.

@sphennings Easiest way to meet people at a concert...

@Shog9 Lucky.

Easiest legal way

So, @Shog9 have you been enjoying our drams?

Shog9

Same old same old

Gypsy Spellweaver

1:46 AM

:))

Shog9

But, hopefully Catija got a bit of rest

apaul

Hopefully, she deserves it.

Nothing new under the sun, I suppose.

@Shog9 any advice on handling our dude bro problem?

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: how do I get back in touch with my estranged mother?

I'm aware of this question but I think my situation is different. I cut off contact with my parents 5 years ago after a physical confrontation with my father that continues to scare me. I ignored all communication from them and several years later, they stopped trying. I hope I never see him aga...

parents

Shog9

@apaul which problem is that? Gamers?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudebro_II

All I can ever associate

Poe's Law, I guess

apaul

@Shog9 Picture the fan base of that game and picture how they would behave on this site. I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about.

Shog9

2:00 AM

"highschool kids" and "myopic"? Sounds about right

There's a reason I posted that answer full of links to past discussions on the various religion sites.

Interpersonal skills are heavily culture-dependent

But most folks aren't particularly aware of that

Heck... An awful lot of folks who study them have traditionally been somewhat blind to it

Gypsy Spellweaver

We were focused on that in the early days. Seem to have lost the light somewhere along the path

Shog9

So you get these broad assumptions about how humans work that are actually based on how upper-class europeans work

apaul

I guess calling it a culture issue is fair. When people live in the same place and still have a cultural divide, it's a little murkier.

Jesse Barnett

@Shog9 Its tough, because answering in a way that is broadly acceptable avoids your answer being seen as 'opinion-based'

Shog9

Anyway... After a few centuries of persecution, war, and mass-migration to try & get away from persecution and war... There's at least a dim awareness among most of the major religions that there are very large numbers of people who see the world very, very differently

Gypsy Spellweaver

2:04 AM

"Everyone in my world thinks X" so everyone in the world should too.

Shog9

As a result, they have a bit of a leg up when it comes to identifying and handling these problems.

NOT, of course, being in any way immune to them

But awareness is the first step to at least mitigating the damage

user15026

@Shog9 how have I been a Arqade mod for this long and not know that existed?

Shog9

The problem with interpersonal skills is that there are a ton of people who learned them growing up without ever quite realizing that they were learning anything... So they just assume that's how people work, and anyone who doesn't work that way is an asshole.

@Ash I donno... I feel like Keith should've clued you in at least

apaul

I mean... There's a difference between seeing the world differently, and being a dick about it though.

user15026

@Shog9 yeah I feel like that would have been a thing he would have informed us about

Shog9

2:06 AM

And, right, then there are a whole lot of people who didn't learn those skills growing up, because they were in a different culture, or they're just built to have more trouble learning such things and no one forced them to do so, or both.

Jesse Barnett

"Dudebro's health bar, named Brodiocity Meter, refills when the player performs certain tasks, such as killing enemies, rescuing ladies or drinking beer."

Shog9

So you get folks in Group II struggling to learn stuff that Group I doesn't even think needs to be taught.

And some of them try really hard, but don't have very good tools and so it kinda comes out wrong.

And some of them just give up and say effectively, "this is stupid, i shouldn't have to learn this, people should be easier"

(just like some portion of every group learning anything says that.)

I have a co-worker who talks about watching Friends to learn American culture. Think about that for a minute while I go yell at my dogs.

apaul

@Shog9 More often "this is stupidi I shouldn't have to learn this, f*** you people for wanting to be treated like people" often the most vocal ones, are the ones who grew up with these things in their culture, they just oppose them.

Shog9

Ok, back! So... Picture yourself trying to learn modern [American|UKian|European] middle-to-upper-class culture, without having much in the way of tools. And every time you get it wrong, someone calls you an asshole.

apaul

@Shog9 That's valid, but it doesn't look like that's what we're dealing with.

Jesse Barnett

2:12 AM

I don't think its that bad @Shog9 I mean, people watch stuff like crocodile dundee and think they are learning about Australian culture. People who don't actually know what its like... well they don't actually know what its like and everyone acknowledges that. I think it gets laughed off rather than calling someone an asshole.

Shog9

...and then someone shows up and tells you, "hey, those folks calling you an asshole? THEY'RE the real assholes - look at how complicated they've made all this stuff just to mess with you! But don't worry - we got you covered. Follow us to learn the SIMPLE TRUTH THAT WILL SET YOU FREE!"

[bullshit follows]

apaul

That part is accurate...

Just seems like otherwise educated western young men that are pissed off about being corrected or having their place in the world challenged.

Shog9

Anyway, this is what we're dealing with. It's not just culture clash, although that's part of it; the nexus of the storm here is that we purport to be a site to teach these sorts of things, but we keep getting mired in arguments over what is cultural and what is innate.

...which is, uh, a bit of a tough nut to crack on its own...

...and also apparently hosting questions that aren't so much "how do I navigate this social interaction" and more "hey, how do I win friends and manipulate people without learning to navigate social interactions?"

Gypsy Spellweaver

It's nice that we have this site where, supposedly, any interpersonal issue can be addressed with a good question receiving good, reasoned answers.

Shog9

So this is where that religion angle comes in.

Gypsy Spellweaver

2:17 AM

A lot of the questions are the SO equivalent of "do my homework for me"

Shog9

You can't just post a question like, "so I want to baptize my baby, and I'm making up my own blessing - what should I put in that?"

First off, a whole bunch of folks are gonna be like, "infant baptism is wrong"

...followed by, "and you can't just make up a blessing"

and it's gonna go all sorts of wrong

the only way this works is, you identify the sect you're looking to operate as a part of, and then get advice based on those specific beliefs

apaul

Don't be an asshole is, or at least ought to be, pretty obvious though... When one person calls you a horse's ass, you can shrug it off, when two people call you a horse's ass, you might have something to look at, when three people call you a horse's ass, it's time to buy a saddle.

Shog9

And if you say, "hey, so, I'm making up my own religion, which ignores all those restrictions that all of you do agree on, and I got a question about how to do something that none of you allow"...

...then you're on the wrong site. Off-topic. Bye!

Jesse Barnett

There was/is a pretty broad range of religious SE sites right?

Shog9

@JesseBarnett yes, lots

sorry, I skipped on context

6

A: Could/should we work this into our help center?

I don't have much of an opinion on this, beyond the feeling that it is too trite to be effective; the help center already contains extensive guidance on voting, as does the UI itself - if someone's going out of their way to vote in a manner contrary to these guidelines, chances are they either fe...

...that's the answer I was referring to

lotsa meaty links that are... pretty relevant here

Gypsy Spellweaver

2:21 AM

@JesseBarnett And not enough of them.

Jesse Barnett

however I disagree with your comments about culture. I think we should be less worried about the culture differences unless it is specifically relevant to the question

Shog9

@apaul or, y'know, emigrate

Which a lot of people have done for pretty much that reason

@JesseBarnett it's always relevant to the question

Jesse Barnett

I have seen a lot of questions get railroaded because of culture and it completely distracted from the main point of the question which was actually quite simple

Shog9

The asker might not realize it. And the answerers probably don't either, for the same reason that generations of euro-centric social anthropologists ignored it.

user15026

@JesseBarnett Isn't it always, though?

apaul

2:22 AM

Again, true, but it's deliberately missing the point.

Shog9

@JesseBarnett that's what I'm getting at here. Don't railroad folks over identifying culture. Identify the culture and use it to explain the causes of the problem and their solution.

Jesse Barnett

No, because if you include culture then you invite people to answer based off stereotypes of that culture. And there is too much of a mix/mash/individual differences within a culture that including the tag turns out to be a negative in getting your question answered

at least for me

apaul

Should we suggest that our dude bros emigrate to places where their privilege still matters, or?

Gypsy Spellweaver

I am unable, at the moment, to come up with a single norm that is universally accepted cross-culturally.

The "railroads" should be deleted.

Shog9

@apaul so, for some reason, your dudebro is on a site dedicated to explaining thorny interpersonal strategies. Do they...

...want to educate themselves?

or

...waste everyone's time?

apaul

2:24 AM

@GypsySpellweaver Treat others the way you would like to be treated seems pretty reasonable.

Shog9

'cause, if the latter it doesn't really matter what they're angle is

apaul

@Shog9 Generally that.

Gypsy Spellweaver

@apaul Tell that to the T'ban.

Shog9

but if the former... Well, in theory they're in the right place. This should be the one spot that's not going to call them an asshole for not knowing the answer and isn't going to sell them a bill of goods in lieu of the answer.

apaul

@GypsySpellweaver Obviously more complicated than that, but it's often an in-group ideal.

@Shog9 Bill of goods?

Gypsy Spellweaver

2:26 AM

13 mins ago, by Shog9

...and then someone shows up and tells you, "hey, those folks calling you an asshole? THEY'RE the real assholes - look at how complicated they've made all this stuff just to mess with you! But don't worry - we got you covered. Follow us to learn the SIMPLE TRUTH THAT WILL SET YOU FREE!"

apaul

@Shog9 ignorant, but trying, I can deal with. Ignorant and trying to sway others in that direction is... Well another thing entirely.

Shog9

Also... I mean, it ain't like any one of us is a world-renown cultural anthropologist. We all have blind spots, probably really embarrassing ones, when it comes to other cultures.

So we can probably recognize that temptation to step in and rattle on about some topic we really don't know much about.

(And by "we" of course I mean "me")

Gypsy Spellweaver

@Shog9 The key to that is, if you don't know the context, don't answer the question.

Shog9

Yep. Point is, if we can learn to recognize this in others, we can learn to recognize it in ourselves. And through that, grow better at doing this.

> I grew up in a fairly sparsely-populated area, a place where you didn't have to worry too much about social conventions most of the time - so I didn't. Moving into town meant learning a seemingly-endless list of rules: where to walk, where to stop, when to talk, how to look at others and when to avoid looking at them, how to rest, how to chew, how to say hello and when to say goodbye... It felt like every moment of my life had been taken over and dictated by a harsh set of laws that couldn't be written but would be swiftly and ruthlessly punished.

Gypsy Spellweaver

I don't even like to see when users admit, "I don't know about there but here we do x"

Shog9

2:29 AM

-- tangentially-related answer on Stack Overflow's meta

apaul

@Shog9 Is dude bro a culture worth playing to? Or is it just angry boys trying to get some? I know I'm about as biased as it gets here. I don't even attempt to hide it.

Shog9

@apaul you know you're just using that name to avoid trying to identify whatever actual cultures the folks you're talking about belong to...

There's no reason to tolerate folks who are being intentionally rude and manipulative.

But, that is a relatively small group of people a relatively small amount of the time.

apaul

@Shog9 14-30 middle to upper class white men from developed nations.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Here's a challenge, if a dude bro asked a question, in dude bro context, could you answer it in dude bro context, or refrain from answering, or would you have to do a frame challenge to the Q?

apaul

With a certain mentality.

Shog9

2:33 AM

Nearly everyone I interact with on SO/SE has been rude and manipulative at one point. If I write them off forever, I really don't have much to do since there's no one left to talk to.

(...hmm... retirement plan...)

Gypsy Spellweaver

:))

apaul

@GypsySpellweaver Frame challenge usually.

Gypsy Spellweaver

That's the same thing they do to other cultures.

Shog9

so, instead of continuing on with the ill-defined duebro thing, I'm gonna take someone who has been pinging me a lot in the past day & use my last reply to them as my answer to Gypsy's challenge:

Maybe... Maybe stop thinking about this as "how can I ask how to find a mate on IPS without actually asking that" and start thinking about where you're struggling to communicate, @D.Hutchinson. Are you having trouble evaluating others' reactions? Gauging the tone of public interactions? Making smalltalk? Conveying your mood? Buying groceries? Whatever it is you're struggling with, I suspect it's affecting a lot more than such a question would imply, much less be able to address - so drop the Rom-Com setups and get to the point. — Shog9 ♦ 2 hours ago

apaul

@GypsySpellweaver I guess that's where I hit the wall. I believe in things. Hard to pretend not to, for the purposes of SE.

Like the false equivalency and false tolerance end up being kinda bullshit at the end of the day.

Gypsy Spellweaver

2:37 AM

You don't have to believe in the other's world view, you just should respect their right to think that way. If you can answer a Q in the context that it's presented, then do so. If you cannot grasp, or stomach, that context, stay away from it.

Shog9

@apaul so do most of the folks on those religion sites. The question they have to answer for themselves - as do you - is: "am I here to show off my belief, or am I here because my belief enables me to teach?"

Gypsy Spellweaver

Maybe, just maybe, someone in their context, will offer an answer that leads them to your context.

apaul

@Shog9 Both and. Not either or. What you believe about how to treat people should matter. Admittedly I'm trying real hard to treat bigots like people, spent a session with a professional talking about that earlier today, but these things should matter.

Shog9

Lotta folks have left the Christianity and Islam sites because they couldn't handle not answering questions from the perspective of a sect they considered heretical.

That's a personal decision.

apaul

So, no moral framework to start from then?

Shog9

2:42 AM

Judaism nominally does not have a culture of evangelism, but even there I've had folks tell me that they just couldn't be a part of a site where their words might be used by folks holding beliefs they abhor

It is... not an easy decision to make, nor one that anyone can make for you.

But at some point, everyone makes it.

apaul

Trying to talk to you as a person, I assume you have beliefs beyond SE?

Shog9

Probably. Unless this beast has consumed my very soul

apaul

Like so you believe certain things?

Shog9

If nothing else, I believe that we each possess the intellect to make the right choice, given the right information. And that we owe it to others - as many as we are able - to share the information that we are given, lest they make the wrong choices for its absence.

apaul

Education is an excellent ideal.

Shog9

2:45 AM

In short, I sympathize with the evangelists; their belief comes closest to my own

apaul

But then you must believe something about that information?

Sorry to play with you, just saying that everyone has guiding principals. Things that you personally believe that are right and wrong, regardless of where they come from, you still have a belief system.

Gypsy Spellweaver

I know one teacher who advised not to cast your pearls before swine. He also said something about the wisdom of planing seed in infertile, or barren, soil.

apaul

@GypsySpellweaver I was taught that Jesus said those things...

user15026

Many called him a teacher.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Seems like sage advise, no matter how you address the adviser.

apaul

2:51 AM

Still having trouble with the feeling that fighting ignorance is the "right" thing to do. Even when it pisses people off.

Shog9

@apaul sorry, I got called away - trying to get supper

Gypsy Spellweaver

The same message, or information, can be delivered in a multitude of fashions. Some will be more effective than others.

apaul

I suspect that most people deep down feel that way, even if/when they have different versions of "right"

Shog9

I believe quite a few more specific things, as much if what I expected written attests - but the relevant one is above

apaul

@GypsySpellweaver ya, that's what the shrink said.

Gypsy Spellweaver

2:53 AM

If the tenor of the delivery is offensive, the information is likely to be discounted and rejected.

Shog9

You strike me as an evangelist, @apaul

apaul

@Shog9 clergy brat, what can I say?

Gypsy Spellweaver

@apaul There is a cure for that.

apaul

Why would I want to do that?

Gypsy Spellweaver

:))

Shog9

2:55 AM

@apaul then learn from Paul: "Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible."

Gypsy Spellweaver

Why would "dude bro" want a cure?

apaul

@GypsySpellweaver because the tide is turning?

;)

user15026

@apaul but if they honestly don't believe they're wrong as much as you believe they are....

Gypsy Spellweaver

If someone sees no error in their ways, and thoughts, they also see no reason to alter them.

Catija

I would think that some might eventually realize that they're doing something "wrong"?

apaul

2:57 AM

Things Paul also said "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!"

user15026

If anything growing up in the Mennonite church has taught me - belief is a damn powerful thing.

Jesse Barnett

But is it really our place to tell someone that their "culture" is wrong?

Gypsy Spellweaver

When they do, if someone wiser in other ways is available, that is the best, maybe only, time to offer a better way.

Catija

@JesseBarnett If it harms others, sure. We specifically prohibit questions looking for help with PUA culture for that reason.

apaul

@Ash My dad's people were Mennonites.

user15026

2:58 AM

I think there can be a difference between saying "hey this particular thing is harmful to people" and "everything you believe is wrong and so is your face"

Jesse Barnett

I think if we are allowed to answer a dude-bro question with some common sense, then we should also be allowed to ask universal common sense questions

user15026

@apaul They're not all bad folk. :) I just learned a lot about how deep faith can run.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Common sense is a rare thing.

Jesse Barnett

then just universal questions

apaul

@Ash I'm trying really hard to stay on this side of that line... It's... Challenging.

Jesse Barnett

3:00 AM

@Catija PUA ?

Catija

-12

Q: Would the scope of "Interpersonal Skills" include Pickup?

Pickup - in the sense I am using the word here - refers to the pursuit and application of interpersonal skills with the goal of increasing the length, number, or perceived quality of one's romantic engagements. The term has come to describe an entire subculture, consisting of somewhat technicall...

discussion scope

Gypsy Spellweaver

All cultures have some useful qualities, else they wouldn't survive.

user15026

@apaul Then maybe, this sort of education isn't necessarily the best spot for you to spend all your spoons? Like yes, it's good to want to work to help people with their things that can hurt people, but it's also good to know when you can't be the one to do that.

Jesse Barnett

ooh, pick up artist :D hahahah

user15026

Sometimes, going "hey this takes more spoons that I have for it to be good for anyone, I need to be elsewhere" is a very healthy thing to do

Jesse Barnett

3:01 AM

@GypsySpellweaver wow thats a bold statement

user15026

Oh, I should've prefaced that with an explanation of spoon theory

Gypsy Spellweaver

Not that they are all completely good, but have some useful quality

apaul

@Ash So far I've found a place in drawing fire. Someone asks a question, the bigots jump on them, I step in and the bigots attack me instead. Seems noble, but aggravating.

user15026

@apaul Yes, but at the same time, actively poking at them to make them react at you isn't a good way of doing that

user15026

And also, you need to recognize when your want to protect people is getting in the way of them getting to speak, or the thing avoiding being completely railroaded because you're so intent on goading them to target you instead

Gypsy Spellweaver

3:04 AM

Maybe @apaul needs an asbestos suit for the next name-day celebration.

Birthday.

apaul

I know I can't change the bigot, but for the person spared the hassle, they had a rare instance of someone in the community fighting for them.

user15026

@apaul Yes, but you also risk unnecessarily white-knighting where it isn't needed, as well.

apaul

@Ash true. I try to know the difference.

user15026

Like there's a fine line between being an ally to other people in or out of your community , and fighting their battles for them

Gypsy Spellweaver

When I read a question, before answering, I also read the comments under it. Just on the chance that there is clarification or additional data not yet added to the question.

In doing that extra reading, others can find the chain of comments that read like a fire-fight and decide that they don't want to jump into that fire with their answer.

The OP has now lost a possible solution to their problem.

apaul

3:07 AM

From what I've seen... Often someone asks a question, gets attacked, and disappears.

Jesse Barnett

@GypsySpellweaver Usually you would also read the other answers, and their comments too

Gypsy Spellweaver

If the fire-fight is strong enough I never get that far.

If the question has that much heat, why would I jump into the fire with my own answer?

If an attacking comment is rebutted with a comment, the original commentator probably feels they must comment again to be sure their point is heard, and believed. (Last word and all that). Multiple comments in the same frame only make the OP feel worse.

apaul

Regardless, stepping up still feels right. The internet is very often a very shitty place for some people. When you have the opportunity to make it less shitty, and you can, you probably should.

Jesse Barnett

@GypsySpellweaver I was not imagining that large of a fire. Just enough to keep things spicy

Gypsy Spellweaver

Flagging the comment, which the poster won't know happened, should get it removed, and avoids others coming to the defense of the attacker against the rebuttal.

No fuel will kill a fire faster than a cross fire will.

user15026

3:13 AM

@apaul but you should also know when to not.

apaul

@GypsySpellweaver If that was immediate, it would work.

user15026

Not every fight needs to be your fight

apaul

Who else is fighting? Step up and help.

Gypsy Spellweaver

The removal may not be immediate. The reply to a rebuttal might be though.

apaul

It matters when people as a community say "this won't be tolerated" it's kinda shitty when people want to play the "every culture is equally valid" game.

Shog9

3:16 AM

bit of advice for ... well, everyone answering on this site: know your audience.

More precisely, know which audience you're writing for: the asker, other answerers, other readers, other people with the problem described in the question, yourself...

You can write for more than one audience, but if you intend to write for one and find yourself writing only for another... You're not gonna be satisfied and neither is your intended audience.

user15026

@apaul Can I be blunt for a second?

Jesse Barnett

@Shog9 Reading through your comments I feel like what you really want is for people to write a short biopic style paragraph outlining their core beliefs and values rather than a culture tag, which can be quite lacking in a lot of cases

user15026

I am very tired of you acting like you are the only one who cares about people's safety and such.

apaul

@Ash Are you ever not blunt? ;)

user15026

@apaul oh, often.

Gypsy Spellweaver

3:18 AM

Maybe @Shog9 can answer a technical question. How many user-based rude/abusive flags does it take to make a comment disappear?

user15026

But when people keep pushing, it's hard not to be.

A J

Morning all!

Shog9

@GypsySpellweaver I lied - it's 3, but not always. Search MSE, there's a score-based component.

user15026

@AJ Good evening! :)

Gypsy Spellweaver

I figured it would be apropos to the instant subject.

Shog9

3:19 AM

@JesseBarnett honestly... It depends a LOT on the question. If you're asking how to interact with a traffic cop in NYC, you can probably go with a tag. If you're asking how to interact with your atheist nephew over Easter, we could probably do with a bit more detail.

Gypsy Spellweaver

So, flagging it as abusive, if it is, adds to the speed with which it will be out of the OP's way for getting good answers.

Catija

@JesseBarnett That'd probably be a really beneficial thing to have... I've found that many times, a culture tag is pretty insufficient. Say there's a question that takes place in the US, and the people involved are originally from India but also from China... The three tags alone aren't going to give the info you need... you need a little explanation and story of their backgrounds.

Gypsy Spellweaver

I see the cultural tags as "Others need not apply"

A J

@Catija like this one?

Gypsy Spellweaver

If it's a Chinese cultural issue, I have no clue what to think, let alone do.

@Shog9 That it does not require mod attention is the significant aspect, I think.

Jesse Barnett

3:23 AM

Yes exactly, culture tags don't always cut it. And forcibly including them can be harmful to the question. If you need more context, I think asking for detail (or this biopic paragraph) would be far more helpful

Catija

Really early on in this site, I argued that the culture is important... culture tags... I was sort of ambivalent about.

7

A: Are questions that lack a location tag really too broad?

This isn't something we can make a blanket statement about. Questions here tend to be very broad and limiting them by culture may help combat that. Every limiting detail makes a question (potentially) more answerable, in the Stack Exchange format. I'm actually quite happy with the answer I wrote...

HDE 226868

Culture tags do help for organization and search purposes, though. I don't think there's much harm to them . . . . but the OP would need to elaborate on why the culture is important and what sort of norms might be involved.

Shog9

@GypsySpellweaver comment flags are kinda under-used, which is a bit of a problem

Sure, Mithrandir tries to make up for all you slackers, but there's only so much he can do...

Catija

@GypsySpellweaver Unless something is really bad, it's unlikely to accumulate the necessary tags before a mod gets to it.

@Shog9 Especially on holiday days like today.

Shog9

today's a holiday?

Jesse Barnett

3:25 AM

@HDE226868 what if its false organisation though? A lot of cultures are very mixed and undefined

A J

@Catija Holiday on Thursday?

Shog9

I knew something felt different

Catija

@Shog9 Fasting day.

Shog9

I prefer feasting days

A J

@Shog9 lol

Gypsy Spellweaver

3:26 AM

@Shog9 Glutten

Catija

Well, I think it's technically over now.

HDE 226868

@JesseBarnett That's where the paragraph in the question comes in. The tag's a broader signpost.

Plus, if I see a question tagged japan, I likely won't answer it . . . because I know basically zip about Japanese culture.

Catija

So much information matters... not just "culture" as in the country you're from... but also your age, gender, race... all of this is largely lacking from questions. But it's complicated to "force" people to add it, particularly when that information narrows down who they are and makes them more recognizable.

HDE 226868

It's an easy way to let people know if they might want/be able to answer.

Catija

@HDE226868 If only everyone were so reserved... unfortunately, they often aren't.

Shog9

3:28 AM

Culture is a lot more than locale, but every little bit helps

HDE 226868

@Catija . . . and that's where interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/q/1254/102 comes in.

Shog9

you could easily have locale, language, socio-economic class and religion, and still have one tag free for the subject of the question

Catija

When I say "country you're from" I include an American with say first generation roots elsewhere.

A J

@HDE226868 However, that doesn't happen always. People tend to answer question not belonging to their culture.

HDE 226868

@Shog9 That's true; we do have a bias towards geographical descriptions of culture.

@AJ Sure. And those answers often get downvoted/deleted. At least, they should.

Gypsy Spellweaver

3:30 AM

If it's tagged japan I probably won't even read it. I know the chance of me having a useful answer are vanishingly slim.

A J

@HDE226868 Ah. Not really.

Catija

@HDE226868 Sure. But answerers don't always cop to their specific cultural experience.

HDE 226868

@AJ I could be biased; I nuked a couple today. My perspective could be skewed.

Jesse Barnett

@HDE226868 I live in Australia, have a family with british values, grew up in a primarily african neighbourhood, went to a large and very diverse public school, fit in with a group of friends who were almost all Chinese and I have recently been practicing Hinduism.... NOW, if i want to ask a question about how to politely inform someone that they may have misheard what I said... Please tell me forcing me to include the Australian tag is beneficial?

It may convince a british person not to answer, which is counter productive

Gypsy Spellweaver

More often than not, others from the same culture will upvote the out-of-culture answers.

HDE 226868

3:32 AM

@Catija True.

Catija

@JesseBarnett Where did anyone say that we were forcing people to use cultural tags? The Meta answer I linked specifically was pretty ambivalent about it.

Jesse Barnett

It was just the conversation we have been having earlier

Catija

> Also, I'd like to emphasize that I'm still not convinced that location tags need to be on every question but I do think that mentioning the location is valuable in the question.

Jesse Barnett

plus I have had a few questions put on hold because I refused to add culture

Catija

Adding culture != Adding a location tag.

Jesse Barnett

3:34 AM

sorry, i misspoke

I mean they were put on hold because I did not add a location tag

Gypsy Spellweaver

On that question I would expect that any culture-based tag was for the culture in effect for the question. Not where you are, where you are from, where you wish you were.

HDE 226868

@JesseBarnett In that case . . . you wouldn't, because Australian culture isn't necessarily relevant. Depends on the interpersonal situation.

Gypsy Spellweaver

If it was a misheard that was in context of the Hindu community you are in, then that's the culture to use.

Jesse Barnett

I know you wouldn't. Because it was not relevant to the question, that is what I am trying to say

A J

@HDE226868 I got criticised for my answers about my own culture a couple of times, though. If it does not happen in US culture, that doesn't mean it won't happen in mine.

HDE 226868

3:35 AM

@JesseBarnett . . . Right. But there's still a relevant cultural tag, in all likelihood.

Gypsy Spellweaver

If it was misheard by your Chinese friends then their culture is likely at the root of the communication gap. and theat's the tag to use

HDE 226868

^^

Catija

You don't need a tag, though... You really don't. You need to explain the complexity of the situation so that we can understand it... that's what's important.

Gypsy Spellweaver

The tag, when used, should help the readers understand more about the problem, not less.

user15026

tags should not be the only thing that tells me about the situation's finer details.

Shog9

3:38 AM

tags are great for finding stuff. Like, Ash wants to answer all Mennonite questions, so follows the [mennonite] tag. Tags are not great for explaining stuff; use words and sentences for that.

Jesse Barnett

Im not trying to argue with you guys :D I agree with most, just want @Shog9 to comment what he thinks. but for the record its a caucasian male that I have only met once before through work and don't know his race

But shouldn't the default be that its a mixed culture? and we only apply the culture after it becomes relevant

user15026

@JesseBarnett but the thing is, it always matters

user15026

There's not any real universality in these things, as much as we'd like there to be.

Jesse Barnett

there so is though

Gypsy Spellweaver

Seems that, if relevant, the only cultural tag would be workplace, if we have one, and if that's indeed part of the situation.

Catija

3:41 AM

@JesseBarnett I'm starting to wonder if you've actually read the answer I linked?

Jesse Barnett

if you are talking to an unknown cultured person.

I havent @Catija, will do so now

Gypsy Spellweaver

Unknown culture is not non-culture

The misunderstanding can be because you don't know, and understand, his culture, and he doesn't know or understand yours.

Ask the former US President, Nixon, about the "peace" sign.

Or was it "victory"? Bad memory that far back.

Jesse Barnett

@Catija okay I read it

I agree with almost all of it, except I think you missed the option that I would vote for

"Leave cultural tags to be added at the questioners discretion, prompting if it seems relevant" They can be very useful in some cases, but answerers dont have any real way of knowing when, so pushing to vtc if it seems like culture might be the problem encourages questions that have been receiving thus far inappropriate answers for reasons other than culture to suffer

A J

@Catija Why is the meta post for Best Answer Challenge still featured and being showed in the featured tab?

Catija

@AJ Because the featured sidebar is broken.

A J

3:54 AM

@Catija Huh? How?

Catija

@JesseBarnett I don't really see that as being too different than #4. Particularly considering the points made in the answer that many people don't know or accept that culture is relevant.

6

Q: Old featured meta question intermittently appearing in "Featured on Meta" box

For some reason, a Meta question on IPS has recently erroneously appeared in the sidebar "Featured on Meta" box. Not only is this question not currently featured, it's locked. The featured tag was removed February 2nd, and this is not a caching issue because it was not in the box earlier this eve...

bug sidebar featured-question

Jesse Barnett

ooh yeah, it is very similar to 4

D.Hutchinson

@Shog9 nice suggestions from your last message to me - thanks ...

sphennings

Can we make a post about "How can I talk to x about y?" and start duping all the questions that can be answered "use your words."

Or at least force people to edit their questions to be more distinct.

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