The Awkward Silence - 2018-01-23 (page 3 of 3)

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7:01 PM

@apaul Yes. In Muslim weddings, after the girl agrees to the wedding "Nikkah", the boy sits opposite to the girl's guardian "dad, brother, uncle, etc. whoever is elder and able" and recites a few lines as per the religion. that's basically how Islamic weddings go. The girl will be seated with the boy, much later.

So basically, it's the boy asking the girl's father to allow him to marry the daughter. Not asking the mother.

@NVZ Traditional Christian weddings have a somewhat similar thing. The father walks the bride down the aisle and "gives her away"

It would also be traditional to ask the future father in-law for his blessing before proposing marriage to his daughter directly...

@apaul Yes, because all these religions are Abrahamic and they share a lot of stuff. The current American thinking is a lot different, maybe. But that level of change in thinking hasn't happened in most other parts of the world.

@NVZ True.

@apaul As I understand it, if someone were to follow the religion strictly, the whole "bf/gf" lifestyle would not be a thing, right?

People tend to forget that we still have traces of those traditions in the current culture, particularly when comparing and contrasting with other cultures.

@NVZ Depends on time period and branch/brand.

Romantic marriage has been a part of christian tradition for a long while, but it depends on things like class, denomination, and so on.

7:12 PM

Sooo... would it be a good idea to write a question about utterly destroying peoples hope? :P

@NVZ Modern Christian fundamentalists tend to "date" but it's almost like supervised courting. Little if any unsupervised time, and tend to marry young, from what I've seen.

I think my situation can be a good fit for the site, although it's one of those cases Jefromi mentions where I already know the answer :/

@Tinkeringbell We do that all the time ;)

@Tinkeringbell What situation is that?

@Tinkeringbell I'm already interested

@Tinkeringbell NO! See what I did there? I destroyed your hope. ;)

7:15 PM

I mentioned it here before... I have this thing about not wanting to have a baby/kid ever... And when dating people (or selecting possible date material) it is bound to come up sometime.

So, sometimes people say they're okay with it, I start a more serious relationship with them... and then after a while talk gets back to kids and they'll express a hope that I'll change.

That's not what I want, because that will end the relationship. So I usually break it off right then and there...

I'm wondering if there's a way to avoid reaching that step

Sounds like a good question.

@Tinkeringbell Mind sharing with us some insights? To me, babies are my everything. :(

It has to do with my character I guess... I had some issues with pets as well as my brothers, that make me think I'm really not going to be a good parent.

Also, periods hurt too much and I need to stop taking my medicine to get a cycle going again and I don't want to do that.... :/

@Tinkeringbell Already knowing the answer shouldn't really cause you a dilemma. but anyways, here's something related: english.meta.stackexchange.com/q/11144/50044

...

@Tinkeringbell Unfortunately children is hard to compromise around.

7:18 PM

@sphennings I know, which is one of the main reasons I dump people once they mention that 'I'll change eventually'.

@Tinkeringbell If it helps I've had to have that sort of conversation before. Had it for different reasons, but I can relate.

@apaul Hmmm... okay. If everyone thinks it can be a good question, I'll be taking a shower to think up some text and post it later tonight.

I'd suggest looking for people with similar goals for the future. Or when you say "I don't want kids." make it clear that it is non-negotiable and you don't want to have to remind them of that.

@Tinkeringbell You are a god among mortals. Every word you publish are well-received. Fear not.

g'morning :)

@Tinkeringbell why was my answer to mith's question deleted? I went to bed and didn't see that until now. Was it attracting negative comments or something?

7:22 PM

I'm definitely with @Tinkeringbell here. I know someone who had a kid that she secretly hated. She loved him, too, but...she was really unhappy with his existence and the effect that he had on her life. If I hadn't already taken precautions to not have kids, that would have convinced me. :-P

I thought my answer was a good one ...

@D.Hutchinson links, or it didn't happen.

@NVZ hahah ...

ugh ... that was my first answer post, too

Jarko Dubbeldam

@Catija what do you suggest I do with that question? Just claim ownership and answer questions for clarification from this account?

@JarkoDubbeldam that beats the whole point of making an anon account.

Jarko Dubbeldam

7:30 PM

@NVZ I know :/ but I messed up by editing some stuff from this account already anyways

So that ship pretty much sailed

Well, it avoid having the question show up on your profile.

Jarko Dubbeldam

I guess

but it's rather the other way around I'm careful for

subject finding the question and then linking it to me, finding out it's about them

@JarkoDubbeldam I think, since you're already responding to comments as JAD, maybe just continue so. Then once comments are used to update the posts, they're no longer needed, and once the comments are gone, you get to free yourself from the post.

Jarko Dubbeldam

@NVZ :shrugs:

@JarkoDubbeldam And JAD is not your real name, I presume. So what's the worry?

Jarko Dubbeldam

7:34 PM

@NVZ no, that's why I changed that really

<- because that is

uh, imagine a diagonal arrow there

now it works :D

@JarkoDubbeldam So all comments responding to yours will be @JAD.

And JAD can be anyone. I am JAD. You are JAD. We're all JAD.

Jarko Dubbeldam

well, linking to network profile will still show my name, but eh

@JarkoDubbeldam Once you remove your comments from there, all that's left will be @JAD mentions without any link to your profile.

And the chat transcript...

Jarko Dubbeldam

@apaul well yeah, but I am not expecting them to go full detective on it

7:38 PM

@apaul I did not know how chat worked until recently, like 3 years back. I don't expect a newbie SE user to go digging for JADs.

Just being facetious, sorry 'bout that.

@apaul hey, look, a distraction. english.meta.stackexchange.com/q/11144/50044

Well, there's this meta answer by Shog: https://interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/a/1686/1599 (it's actually on questions, but goes for answers too).

There's a reason StackExchange or IPS wasn't mentioned in the question ;-) There's a reason we'd like to keep it out of the answers too.

Left you an earlier comment on that as well

@NVZ Eh... My questions don't usually go over very well ;)

Can I get special permission to use the click bait title: 'How to utterly destroy peoples hope?' :P

7:43 PM

*disapproving look*

@Tinkeringbell Do it! 😈

user15026

@Tinkeringbell laughs I am not at liberty to judge, I come from Arqade where "clickbait" style titles happen with reasonable regularity (not always on purpose!)

@Ash Well, since we were chided by Shog once to have the title reflect the question in the body, I'll just behave :)

user15026

@Tinkeringbell hahaha probably for the best

@Tinkeringbell I'm not a fan of vague titles. "How do I destroy the hopes of my child wanting partners?" is clear though.

7:46 PM

@sphennings A: "Eat 1 or more babies in front of them."

@TheTinyMan VLQ, doesn't explain the rationale behind it.

HEY I WAS WORKING ON THAT xD

"If the anti-baby sentiment doesn't scare them away, the commitment to an alternative diet will."

There. xD

@TheTinyMan "I like kids. Sprinkle some salt and rosemary on them and they are delicious."

@TheTinyMan You still haven't provided an explanation of why all IPS solutions will fail :P

@Tinkeringbell Eating is a form of...uh...expression!

7:48 PM

@sphennings Child wanting partners? Or the other way around?

@TheTinyMan You should have gone with non-verbal communication ;)

I'll go with :How do I destroy the hopes of a (possible) partner that wants children?

@NVZ It's not my question but as I understand it Tink doesn't want kids and they want to let their partner know that this isn't going to change.

South park - Kick The Baby! (Kyle & Ike)

Still doesn't really reflect the body though, I'd probably end up asking 'How to communicate' :P

I'll write the question first and the title later!

@sphennings So, maybe, it's better said "How do I destroy the hopes of my partner wanting children?"

7:50 PM

@NVZ child wanting is an adjective phrase

@sphennings If it had a hyphen, yes.

@NVZ I don't remember the formal explanation but it parses better to me as child wanting partner.

@sphennings child-wanting partner would be fine.

I believe some linguist or other has an explanation for it but I don't have any sources. It's one of those things I just subconsciously know.

@NVZ Hyphenating it would have been clearer. Yes.

@NVZ There's an unspoken order for adjectives in english. It's also entirely possible to have sentence with ambiguous parsings.

@sphennings there's usually a hyphen: google.com/search?&q=%22child+wanting+partner%22

@sphennings Yep. The perks of... English.

Might be of interest: reddit.com/r/childfree/comments/703372/…

8:01 PM

@Tinkeringbell I just read the comments from the deleted answer of mine; your comment was particularly unfair:
"I fail to see how giving an answer so specific to moderating SE will help Arwen in moderating other online communities as well... And please don't use answers to voice your discontent with SE. There's a contact button at the bottom of each screen for that."

nowhere did I show "discontent with SE", and also, I gave both a SE answer and non-SE answer.

your interpretation of my answer was way off ...

I gave a truthful answer that I thought was supportive of Arwen

Then edit to improve... Remove the room for interpretation.

ugh ... that's demoralizing enough ... not sure that I will edit ...

but honestly ...

only supporting magisch's answer, where he / she tells you what you wanted to hear ... isn't very forward-looking ...

that's all ...

Need some proofreading, because I think I just wrote a question that's impossible to asnwer

I have had some issues with pets (and my brothers to a much lesser extent), that have convinced me that I will never have kids.

This, however, leads to some serious problems when dating/having a relationship with people. I **always** make it very clear to people before starting to date them that:

- I don't want to have children (I also explain why)
- I don't want them to hope/expect me to change my mind

Most of the time, this means we just part ways as good friends before the dating even starts. But in other cases, people say they're fine with *both* points.

@D.Hutchinson While I tend to stay away from taking sides, I do wanna say that calling out a mod in particular is not the way to go. So, do take things to the "contact" link of SE.

Eh, @Magisch answered the questions asked. Pretty well from the look of it. If moderators took the time to justify their ability/motives/age/experience/expertise to every user who had a problem, they wouldn't have much time left for moderating.

8:10 PM

@Tinkeringbell Why post here for proofreading? Isn't the main site's community-editing features enough?

@NVZ Because after writing it out fully I'm no longer sure it it's on topic

Might be better suited for a Lifehacks site :/

@Tinkeringbell If it's not on-topic, it can be closed. What more to worry about?

@NVZ Why take the effort of posting it if I can get feedback here ;)

Jarko Dubbeldam

@NVZ Negative question record :gasp!:

That isn't the final version I'll post...

Jarko Dubbeldam

8:12 PM

Questionban :gasp!!:

@Tinkeringbell feedback on the main site is easier to do though

@Tinkeringbell I am trying not to give feedback here. :P

Really, I want to know whether stuff like that would even be answerable or fit for IPS. People do scrutinize my behavior and I'm well aware of it.

@Tinkeringbell Post on the main site. Feel what others go thru when asking.

Go ahead.

Both of you are being impossible :P So, you were willing to tell me first that it was a good idea, but now you're not even going to take away doubts?

@NVZ I think I'll wait.

This pre-filtering via chat will drain the courage outta you.

8:13 PM

I'll think about myself more, and I want to go to bed soon so there's no time for moderating the question anyway

Jarko Dubbeldam

@Tinkeringbell hmm ok here goes

It's missing a culture tag

:D

@Tinkeringbell "what else/more can I do to destroy this hope before I reach the dating/serious relationship phase?" Is a bit broad and may lead to an idea generation issue.

Jarko Dubbeldam

@apaul hmm what about >How to deal with potential SOs that have the impression they can change my opinion on this?

A lot of the "how to say no" questions tend to be answered with "tell them what you just told us", or "no is a complete answer".

@JarkoDubbeldam I already know the answer to that one. break up. Which is what I've been doing. Leaving that detail out wouldn't be very helpful, I'm not interested in salvaging the relationship after that point :/

8:16 PM

Perhaps better worded as something like "how can I communicate that this is a non-negotiable?"

@apaul Might work...

@apaul Everything except death is negotiable. :P Or maybe not.

Off to sleep. Ciao.

Jarko Dubbeldam

@NVZ or the weather

@NVZ Night

@JarkoDubbeldam Not weather. It's usually death and taxes.

Jarko Dubbeldam

8:18 PM

@NVZ trust me, and weather

@JarkoDubbeldam Time are changing. We make rains here in the UAE via cloud seeding.

In some distant future, we'll all be living in artificial climates.

Jarko Dubbeldam

@NVZ manmade global warming doesn't count as artificial ;)

But... death and taxes, they'll be here for lot longer.

@JarkoDubbeldam artificial is what man made.

anyways.. tata

Jarko Dubbeldam

o/

@NVZ where have I called out a mod, though? My answer supports the OP. @apaul that's precisely the gist of my answer - to encourage the OP not to have to justify his / her abilities.

@NVZ I posted on Meta, if you wanted to reread my answer

8:34 PM

@D.Hutchinson "only supporting magisch's answer, where he / she tells you what you wanted to hear ... isn't very forward-looking ..."

user15026

@Tinkeringbell Thanks for your answer on my post - I never thought about the fact that people think they're honestly being helpful/caring, and they might not see/notice the fact that the repetition etc of this is wearing on me over time and twisting me up in the middle.

@D.Hutchinson NVZ has sufficient rep to read your answer without it being posted on meta.

@Ash You're welcome :) It was quite the revelation to me too, when I finally got that out of mom

user15026

@Tinkeringbell I think it's hard sometimes, to get out of your own head - I only see my own irritation, at this point, not other people's intent

user15026

I know they care, and I appreciate that, it's just a lot to have to deal with

8:40 PM

@Ash Telling them that might get them to understand your point of view better, people can be really blinded by good intentions sometimes :)

@catija ok, thanks ...

user15026

Very true. So I think for close friends/family, I will give that a shot.

user15026

(I know I'm not always as kind as I could be about this, the process is very...emotionally taxing. Worth it, but it's a lot of stuff to go through.)

@Ash Well, hopefully once the first people stop asking, you'll get a bit more patience to deal with others as well ;)

@Catija what's your interpretation of my answer? I don't think it was attacking Arwen at all - it was meant to be supportive. But regarding subject matter expertise, if I didn't write truthfully about my thoughts, then we'd just be answering questions to appease the OP to earn rep - that's what I meant when I said (in chat) that that's not a forward-looking model ...

and one commenter wrote: @ArwenUndómiel For example, since I know nothing about math, I wouldn't be able to say whether or not two questions on math.stackexchange are duplicates, whether an answer actually answers a question, and whether comments are still asking for clarification and suggest improvements or are debating things that are tangential to the original post. Just go over to math.SE and see if you could. – henning

he / she ^ addressed the matter of subject matter expertise, too ...

8:45 PM

@D.Hutchinson I think you're a little too snowblind trying to take his question in context of SE - and IPS specifically - and it hurts your answer. If you think the question is too broad, don't answer it. Ask for clarification. Starting an answer with "Your question is too broad so I'm going to interpret it the way I want to interpret it ... it's not helpful".

5

Your answer also seems to ignore half of what I told you in chat the other day... Mods aren't islands. FFS, do you think all of the SO mods are subject matter experts of all of the possible technologies on SO? No... because most of the moderation is done by the users, not by the moderators... so the argument relating to SME is a false one.

user15026

@Tinkeringbell One can hope!

Adventures in pot stirring...

And even then, each site has multiple mods, so if one feels like something is out of their depth, there are (usually) at least two others to help... or there's 500 others to ask for help... or the CMs. But SME isn't important as a mod. We're not judging content quality or accuracy.

Sometimes I have to wonder if people actually care about the subject at hand, or if it's just something to talk/argue about.

Jarko Dubbeldam

@apaul I guess that depends on the stack

some subjects are really inviting for arguments, like politics

8:55 PM

@JarkoDubbeldam Usually people actually have strong opinions about those subjects... Granted some will stir the pot just to keep an argument going, but I think most really have a position that's important to them personally.

@Catija my answer mostly addresses the case where a user questions the OP's experience with the subject matter

not with other aspects of moderation

Locutus of Borg

But that's not what the question is about, is it?

@D.Hutchinson The question isn't about subject matter, though. It specifically says:

> I'm not sure if I trust a teenager to be responsible enough for this.

"this" was too broad ...

^That's about responsibility, not knowledge.

8:57 PM

it was clarified later though, in the comments

Locutus of Borg

@D.Hutchinson How was it too broad? It pretty specifically said that it was about people not trusting their moderation...

@LocutusofBorg within moderation, there should be subject matter experts, network experts ... there are several aspects of moderation that perhaps each elected moderator would be most responsible for ...

^ i'm trying to generalize and not talk specifically about SE

@D.Hutchinson Trust me, you have the idea of moderation entirely wrong...

I have a 16 year old brother that moderates games he doesn't even play.

Locutus of Borg

@D.Hutchinson Why? Not every site has the same requirements as SE... and nowhere did it say that the OP was the "subject expert" anyway.

@Tinkeringbell possibly, I'm willing to listen

9:00 PM

@D.Hutchinson No. That's really not what that quote means. And, even if you do take it so literally... We've already explained to you that if there's three people moderating, only one is expected to be an SME... not all three. So expecting them all to be so is missing the point. Mith could easily be the chaos monkey.

@LocutusofBorg right, but that was clarified in the comments after my answer, though ... so it almost seemed to intentionally make my answer irrelevant ...

user image

haha ...

@D.Hutchinson Which ties in to us telling you that if you think a question is unclear, you shouldn't be answering it, you should ask for clarity first.

@Tinkeringbell the different aspects of moderation, I got directly from Shog9's comments on that MSE post

9:02 PM

@D.Hutchinson Okay. To moderate something, you need the skills you use in customer support, not be really good at playing a game. You need to know what the rules are, and be able to say 'Hi, this is the rule, live by it or die'.

(die in game... no one is actually going to murder you... )

@Catija Hi, that's a rule. Live by it or die

... probably.

@Catija Accounts get suspended/deleted over there.

I think they can even ban IP addresses.

Still not quite "die" :P

9:05 PM

@Catija Okay, still not quite die. I really should ask him sometime whether he can make people videogame die though, just to get them removed from one

Additionally, what you may not know is that they often don't take the highest reputation user when selecting site mods for beta sites... which argues against your SME point entirely. They will take active and involved users who participate on both main and meta but they very rarely take the user with the most rep.

He's doing very cool stuff, stuff I wish I would have know/be able to do when I was 16 :)

@D.Hutchinson Which is evidence that the answer was used to further arguments and discussions that had been floating around in chat. When you go seeking attention, you're not always going to like the attention you get.

I've also been told that I quote the CMs too much... so... don't always take what they say as gospel. They're users, too... a lot of what they write isn't "official".

@apaul I don't see how that's an issue that you're trying to make it out to be. Any good answers / comments can originate in chat ... and no, I wasn't seeking attention with posting what I thought was a pretty good answer - you should stop stirring the pot, because it's not working on me, seriously ... I'm not angry, sorry ...

one sec, Catija, I have to catch up to your messages ...

I see ...

@catija @Tinkeringbell I see your example of moderating gaming, however, what about my example regarding moderating a Parenting forum? or maybe even Health ...

9:16 PM

What Henning brought up wasnt relevant. I left a comment explaining that:

- Mods are picked from the community anyways. If you're not active on math you don't have a chance of winning a mod election. I'd love to see you try though :)
- Mods are human exception handlers. When I flag a user for disruptive behavior, that's where the mods come in. If I think an answer is not an answer, I raise a not an answer flag and the communit handles it.

When the community can't get users, posts or whatever under control, that's where mods use their powers. For the rest, they're just regular users.

I see ...

Oh, just wanted to say... I don't know much about Math.SE. But... I've got over 100 helpful flags there... ;)

@Mithrandir Spam doesn't count :P and only bothering mods with flags won't win their graces and have you accept them on the team! :P

Nah, not just spam... Most of those are comment flags TBH

Do you guys think 3 delete votes to delete an answer is moderation-heavy?

9:21 PM

No... that's the standard on SE...

I think Anne and AJ who also casted delete votes should be required to give a reason, like Tinkeringbell did ...

on all sites, @Mithrandir?

Yep.

I thought it was 5 or something ...

I see ...

Also... Subject area experts would often make terrible mods... Notice that the top scoring users are rarely if ever mods? I know I don't have the tact or patience for it in most cases.

@D.Hutchinson My comment has two upvotes. They probably read mine and agreed. It's what a community does so it doesn't need a moderator to step in

There's no need to go calling them out on their decisions here, now that you have a meta post up

They'll find it and answer in their own time if they feel the comments weren't explanatory enough

user15026

9:22 PM

@apaul Agreed. There's a lot more to moderation than subject knowledge. In fact I'd so far as to say in my experience with moderation, more of what I'm called to do is...not subject matter related at all.

user15026

@D.Hutchinson 5 for close/reopen, 3 for delete

again, @Tinkeringbell your escalating by saying I'm "calling them out" - it's only a recommendation. I'm choosing my words carefully here.

and in my answer, I didn't attack an SE mod in any way, which you seemed to have interpreted that was the case ...

Of course, I'm not required to give a reason. It's not even necessary, since Catija already wrote an excellent comment. All I have to add, @D.Hutchinson, is that IPS.SE is not supposed to be a repository of bad posts. That's why some have to be deleted from time to time. I hope that helps.

3

@AnneDaunted no, I meant at the time of deleting - not after the fact. Just a suggestion, though.

this way, the user doesn't feel he's being unfairly censored ...

downvoting is different, deleting is way more aggressive ...

@D.Hutchinson Would you prefer to see it undeleted and downvoted into a hole? You're one vote to undelete away...

9:31 PM

@D.Hutchinson Downvoting and deletion are to solve different problems. Downvoting is for incorrect answers and deletion is for non-answers.

You didn't answer the question. Which seems to be why it was deleted.

Trust me, that wasn't 'unfairly censored' but I'm not going to get through to you anyways. I'll just remove myself from this conversation right now because it's getting disruptive and is leading nowhere... I'd strongly advise you to take the fight to meta as you've already done and to keep it there, otherwise, this chatroom might end up closed because it's getting out of hand.

As for other people I'd like to ask them to either write their answers on this on meta, or provide me with the weather report for your location :D

WOOOOOOOO

I finally did it

I managed to stay in a wheelie position for over two seconds

@Mithrandir Oh hey, you mentioned that you were almost there recently. Congratulations, you've beaten the Dutch person with regards to biking skills :)

:P I spent a couple hours today just practicing

@Tinkeringbell It's raining which is far to warm for January.

9:34 PM

and it finally payed off

@sphennings Similar here.

Jarko Dubbeldam

@sphennings uh, it'll be 15 degrees C here tomorrow :x

@Mithrandir Niceee! So, I assume the weather over there is nice and lends itself to practicing then?

Jarko Dubbeldam

normal is like... 5?

nah, i just stopped when it started raining

9:36 PM

:42452814 Nevermind. what's the weather like?

Ugh... Fun times

@apaul Does that mean sun or snow?

adventures ... in ...

@apaul finish that ^

it's raining here :(

downpouring in New York ... ugh ...

@Tinkeringbell I got it ... thanks ...

It's unusually warm here for the time of year. I'm actually already sleeping in summer PJ's...

Nice ...

9:38 PM

@Tinkeringbell It doesn't snow here, but the BS is getting deep so...

@apaul Please, that warning goes to you too. Don't! I can kick people. I want people to answer that meta or stop it.

@D.Hutchinson Goes for you too!

@Tinkeringbell yeah, I've moved on ...

thanks :)

@Tinkeringbell current weather report: SW veering WSW 4 or 5. Occasional showers. Moderate. Thundery showers and high winds inbound by 0900 tomorrow.

@ArtOfCode High winds again? I could feel the wind picking up tonight, but will we get another storm?

Jarko Dubbeldam

@Tinkeringbell 8bft tomorrow

9:47 PM

(Since they usually pass you by first)

Jarko Dubbeldam

but only at the coast

@JarkoDubbeldam Ugh... again? Oh thank ... the trains have been horrible as is this week, I really don't need another storm!

Jarko Dubbeldam

basically parallel to the coast, so shouldn't really notice that near your place

@Tinkeringbell Unlikely... I've got 33kt gusting 50kt on the forecast for 0900 tomorrow, but the real low is currently SE Iceland at 964, expected Viking at 968 by 0000 Thursday. So, tracking well north of both of us.

@ArtOfCode Nice :)

They still haven't cleaned up all trees and branches from the last one

Introverted Meta Man.

10:23 PM

-7

Q: Why was my answer deleted last night?

Why was my answer to this question deleted? How do I effectively get people to look past my age when considering my abilities, if they know how old I am? My answer is below, for reference. I thought it was a good one - and certainly not delete-worthy: I think that the question as written i...

discussion answers

0

Q: Is this post salvageable for re-opening (the one about killing insects)?

To the best of my ability (since there was not already much meat to this post), I have edited the information in this question to not sound as biased and updated the question away from being "how do I tell someone they're wrong". I feel like it now stands as a more appropriate IPS question, and ...

discussion specific-question reopen-request

10:41 PM

I happen to like this answer.

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