The Awkward Silence

Hamlet

5:00 PM

I mean, people can lie.

But that's already happening with all of the suggestion-based answers on this site.

Like, if you come to me with a question about relationship advice, I can suggest that you end the relationship.

Zizouz212

True

Hamlet

Of course, it's a suggestion. There's no way of knowing if it's good or bad advice unless you try it.

Zizouz212

I think all of your points summed up (and actually what I came to conclusions myself as well), was to ask answers to explain why they are "qualified" to provide an answer

Hamlet

And if it's bad advice, well, you just got fooled by a place on the internet!

Zizouz212

Are you from the same cultural background? Have you had a similar experience? So on...

Hamlet

5:01 PM

@Zizouz212 nope, not true.

Zizouz212

Nope?

Hamlet

Again, I can lie and say "I have a phd in relationships, you need to break up".

But there isn't any difference between the two statements.

There's no way of knowing if the advice is good or not until you use it, at which point it's too late to go back.

Zizouz212

Now I'm really confused as to what we're arguing

Hamlet

However, if I give an answer that says "this meets all the criteria for an abusive relationship, you need to end it now before it gets worse"

or "I had a similar problem with my significant other. We talked about it, and I found that they [x]. Once I knew that, I was able to accommodate them by [y]. Our relationship improved. In my experience, you should at least talk about this issue; there's a possibility that you have incomplete information. I'm live in z and I'm 30 by the way."

Zizouz212

@Hamlet Okay, but supposed you say why the relationship is abusive, before telling why you should end it.

Hamlet

5:06 PM

These answers explain why their advice works and why their advice is applicable to the OP.

Which is what experience-based answers do.

Maybe their lying about having a significant lover, living in z, and lying about being 30 years old. But the point is that the OP has the information to evaluate if the advice is good and applicable to their situation before using it.

That's how experience-based answers work.

Zizouz212

Not so fast - "applicable" advice could be argued that such advice doesn't have to be from personal experience, nor does that have to be mentioned

@Hamlet Isn't that akin to what you argued against me yesterday? I'm kind of confused

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 we've went over this. In theory, yes, you can cite sources. In practice, everyone is writing from experience, focus your time on teaching people to write good experience based answers.

@Zizouz212 NO IT'S NOT!

Zizouz212

lol sorry :(

I'm not thinking straight right now probably...

Hamlet

Yes, you need to include information about your cultural background. That information is part of your argument that your advice is useful to the OP.

Zizouz212

@Hamlet I'm not saying cite sources, I'm asking about "hypotheticals" - well, this is totally this, so I would/you should do that

Hamlet

5:11 PM

information + argument = answer

2

or rather, arguments turn information into answers.

People can lie about the information, e.g. saying they've lived in India but they haven't.

Zizouz212

And they're not much to do to stop that

Hamlet

But if you're reading the answer looking for advice, you know whether you live in India or not.

So you say, OK, the information matches mine, now let's see if the argument makes sense.

And the argument will either make sense or it won't.

Zizouz212

@Hamlet Isn't the premise for the question then taken away?

Hamlet

If the argument doesn't make sense, that means the advice isn't good. If the argument makes sense, then maybe the advice is worth following, not because you've read it on the internet but because the argument convinced you.

But without the information in the answer, you can't tell if the argument applies to you.

information + argument = answer

Zizouz212

Information being answering to your experience, right?

Hamlet

5:15 PM

information: may or not be true. Exist so the reader can tell if your answer is applicable to then.

Zizouz212

Makes sense :)

Now, how do we judge what "good" information is?

Hamlet

argument: either valid or invalid. (arguments can't be true). Arguments exist to convince the reader that the answer/advice is worth using in their own life.

@Zizouz212 you don't judge whether the information is true or not. You judge whether there is enough information, and whether the information would be relevant to anyone reading the question.

@NVZ this is why I didn't self-answer my question BTW.

Zizouz212

Oh, I can't speak my mind! Does the mere existence of information make it suitable for the quality standards of the site?

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 pretty much. (This is because it's the internet; you can't tell if someone is lying.)

Zizouz212

And then the information would be "judged" by the community with votes?

Hamlet

5:23 PM

@Zizouz212 again, the only thing that you can judge about the information is whether it exists. So if a post doesn't include information such as what country they're in, then yes, you can judge it with downvotes.

Zizouz212

Yep

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 and leave constructive comments.

Arguments are completely different things from information.

Zizouz212

:)

I'm going to try and give it a shot to that meta question, but I'm guessing that most of what I'm going to say is going to be shaped by this conversation. Thanks :)

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 hold on, I'm not finished.

Zizouz212

Okay :D

Hamlet

5:27 PM

Here's an example of an argument. "I was in an abusive relationship. Nothing I did improved things. I later found out from a psychologist that this is normal. Meeting with the psychologist helped give me courage to walk away. I suggest that you meet with a psychologist, or someone who is a professional who can offer advice. Extra sentences."

It's a good argument. What's it missing? Information!

Specifically, how do I know by reading this whether I'm also in an abusive relationship? I would know by the information that the writer gave about their situation, and I could compare that information to my own experiences.

Here's an example of something that isn't an argument.

"I was married for fifteen years, and my spouse and I started having arguments about what to watch on TV. To solve this, I divorced my spouse."

It has information. I can tell by reading it whether it's applicable to me.

But no argument. Nothing to convince me that if I were in the same situation, that divorcing my spouse would be the right thing to do.

@Zizouz212 does this make sense?

Zizouz212

Sort of... I'm just thinking about it

Hamlet

Well, I'm going to go. Good luck with the meta answer, if you decide to write it.

Zizouz212

Thanks :)

It's fun talking to you, I'll see you soon :)

Introverted Meta Man.

-1

Q: Against the evidence or experience requirement

This post aims to argue for the following belief: That an evidence or experience requirement is harmful (epistemic status: uncertain) a) An evidence or experience requirement will not improve answers very much Just because you had one experience where you did one particular thing and it worked...

discussion

Zizouz212

@IntrovertedMetaMan. Too late for the party buddy...

Shokhet

5:58 PM

Because you mentioned that you were not familiar with some of the terms regarding disability in language, I recommend this article. It's a long read, but I think it's worth it. — Shokhet 26 secs ago

^^^ recommended reading. The article was written for authors, but I think it's equally important for everyone to read.

NVZ

@Hamlet fair enough. I spoke too soon.

Catija

7:37 PM

@IntrovertedMetaMan. Well, I've tried to answer that... Not sure if perhaps I should put the answer content somewhere else... Y'all feel free to let me know what you think.

Zizouz212

I'm reading it right now :)

Now I'm debating whether it's even worth submitting my half-written post :/

steelershark

@Zizouz212 Don't worry. It's a lot to understand the SE system, especially with new sites. You have a positive attitude and a willingness to learn. Oh, and you're easy to talk to. Those are awesome traits to have not only on SE, but in real life :)

Zizouz212

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

@Catija Why did I click on one of your links......

Catija

@Zizouz212 What? Did I break something?

Zizouz212

@Catija Oh no, it's not your fault. I clicked on one of the links in your answer, and then lost mine :/

Catija

7:50 PM

Oh, it should save it, though?

Zizouz212

The space is blank :(

Catija

My browser always says "Do you want to leave the unfinished post" or something like that.

Zizouz212

Oh well

I think I'll just send something in that builds on your answer. I like yours

I think I'll just go over why I think we need a evidence-based answers, and how simple it is to do it (highlight what Hamlet and I have been talking about over the last few days)

Catija

:( Sorry. I'm glad you like my answer, though.

Zizouz212

It's not your fault! Stop being Canadian! :P

Catija

8:02 PM

I'm not Canadian. I'm Texan.

NVZ

giphy.com/gifs/1Z02vuppxP1Pa/html5

How do I add GIF in a chat msg?

Zizouz212

I think it needs to finish with a .gif or some image

NVZ

@Catija I thought you're from the Middle East. Sounds like Khadeeja, a very popular name here in Dubai.

Zizouz212

haha

NVZ

Suggested edits take too long for review - why?

Sure, it's a new site. Fewer users. But still.

Catija

8:08 PM

... There aren't a lot of 1000 rep users, I don't think.

There are 9...

NVZ

9, I counted.

interpersonal.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/648

Catija

And it takes three of them... so you need 1/3 of the users who have the ability to be around... patience.

NVZ

Do we use tags for location, as in SCHOOL, PARK, etc?

Zizouz212

@Catija two

Catija

I would say no.

NVZ

8:10 PM

I added school and India as tags

Catija

I could have sworn it was three.

NVZ

3 for SO.

Zizouz212

@Catija Three is only on Stack Overflow - but they changed it to two because the queue was too long

NVZ

@Zizouz212 temporarily

Zizouz212

Probably for 6-8 weeks

Catija

8:11 PM

Bah... probably just until the election is over.

Extroverted Main Man

8:31 PM

0

Q: How to politely tell someone that I'm not interested to talk with them at the moment?

I have this middle aged roommate who is a bit on the talkative side. He keeps talking about his life events and stuff and doesn't bother to ask anything about me. I was ok in the beginning and sort of encouraged him. But now I'm tired of him and doesn't want to listen to silly life stories. I hav...

conversations

0

Q: How to tell someone I only want to speak to them if they don't transmit my words to e.g. Google, Amazon, or Apple?

Millions of people use smart speakers in their homes which detect all spoken words in a room and send them across an internet connection to companies such as Google (Google Home), Amazon (Amazon Echo with Alexa), and Apple (HomePod). What is a polite way to tell a person that I am only willing t...

friends politeness

Zizouz212

0

A: Against the evidence or experience requirement

I want to answer two simple questions here: Why do we need an evidence requirement? How easy it is to follow it. Why do we need an evidence requirement? Like Catija's answer, Stack Exchange communities are built on the premise that questions will be answered that are strengthened by evidence...

sigh

Me searches up "Culture" in Google Images, and finds this:

Catija

Bacteria?

Zizouz212

Catija

8:51 PM

@HDE226868 I want to ask the opposite of that question you answered... "I have a coworker who, whenever I'm with him outside of the office (on a drive from one location to another) I feel like I'm interviewing him because I just keep asking questions of him and he never responds with questions of his own." :P

HDE 226868

@IntrovertedMetaMan. I notice that Extroverted Meta Man is a bit quicker than you.

Catija

As it should be.

Zizouz212

lol

HDE 226868

@Catija The self-centered question?

Catija

@HDE226868 Yes.

HDE 226868

8:53 PM

That's interesting. I've talked to people like that.

Most of them are toddlers, but some are adults.

Catija

I don't really think it's necessarily about being self centered... personally, I just don't think about asking those questions. I get people who ask me about Ben all the time but I don't know much about their family/home life, so I don't really have anything to ask about.

I like asking questions but I also have a difficult time telling if they're actually interested in answering or if I'm digging too deep.

HDE 226868

I try to gauge that by how long there answers are - and if those lengths change when I ask different types of questions.

HDE 226868

9:43 PM

General observation: We're more active than I thought we'd be - even on none-HNQs.

Zizouz212

@HDE226868 By visits on questions?

HDE 226868

@Zizouz212 Just by the number of posts.

Zizouz212

@HDE226868 Questions or answers?

HDE 226868

Answers, I think. But sort of both.

Zizouz212

Questions are pettering off like normal. I like how we're getting new users. Answer ratio is at 3.1, so we're pretty well off

Hamlet

9:55 PM

@HDE226868 @Zizouz212

0

A: Why doesn't this site have a back it up rule?

The problem that this site currently has is that the answers are mostly suggestions. What this means is that answers will simply suggest suggestions to the problem, but there is no way for anyone reading the answer to know if the suggestion will work unless they actually try them. This leads to p...

HDE 226868

@Hamlet Reading.

Zizouz212

@Hamlet I'll take a look right now

Hamlet

Mostly wrote this because I realized there isn't a good resource on this issue.

Zizouz212

@Hamlet Good call. I think another issue we have with that subject is that "anything" we do have is now just... well... everywhere, so we can't make good use of it.

HDE 226868

@Hamlet Nicely written. I'll suggest that your example argument at the end include a bit about how the experience is relevant to the situation at hand.

Zizouz212

10:01 PM

Second that

Hamlet

@HDE226868 whoops, editing.

@HDE226868 @Zizouz212 edited, and included some examples of constructive comments.

HDE 226868

That, @Hamlet, is how you write an excellent meta answer that can hopefully be the basis for site policy. I like it.

I mean, your other meta posts were also good. But this is one that should be very citable.

Hamlet

@HDE226868 it's more that I'm hopeful this will be useful the next time SE launches a site that uses experience-based answers.

Since the CMs do such a poor job with that issue.

Although this answer makes it clear that one of the CMs at least understands the issue

8

A: Can post notices on the hard-science tag actually do something?

This is one of those areas where a topic breaks the model a bit. For questions, we have essentially two axes for voting: Closing a question - possible even if highly upvoted - makes it eligible for deletion and prevents answers from being posted, providing strong encouragement for improvemen...

Question: how do I do separate one line block quotes?

HDE 226868

I sometimes add a

> ---------------

which inserts a line in between them.

Catija

10:16 PM

I do like your answer @Hamlet I'm not sure how I feel about the last part. The very reason this became a matter of discussion is that someone felt that being asked to add evidence to their answer was unwarranted because there's no consensus that it's necessary.

Hamlet

@Catija well, just do what I do in the Literature Stack.

Downvote, leave a comment, and move on.

Extroverted Main Man

1

Q: How to say "I'm an adult now" to parent?

I have an issue with my parent meddling in personal choices. Let's say they are neutral habit, which means you can't say it's good or bad, like shaking my feet when I'm idle - note that this does not disturb anyone, just because they have taken notice to this. There are other things (not habit), ...

conflict-aversion parents

Hamlet

@Catija I also think some of the reaction to that comment was due to the fact that the comment was unconstructive.

A comment such as "answers need to either be based on academic sources or personal experience" doesn't explain how to improve the answer.

> Of course, my personal opinion is that answers that are missing either information or argument aren't actually answers, but are simply noise. So I personally am a very strong proponent of deletion for these non-answers. But for deletion to happen, you'll need a consensus. But the only way you can start building a consensus is by downvoting, leaving comments, and raising awareness at the grassroots level.

Catija

10:43 PM

@HDE226868 shog is in your questions, editing their tags

Zizouz212

The Shoggity Shog has been summoned!

HDE 226868

@Catija I see the sarcasm one; are there others?

Zizouz212

Bow down on your knees before he delivers his judgment upon you!

Catija

Should that tag be online-interaction or should it be online-interactions... or interacting-online? Or something else?

Zizouz212