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12:25 AM
@Zizouz212: There doesn't seem to be agreement on this point yet — Casebash 4 mins ago
@Catija ^ Ideas?
 
@HenryWHHackv2.0 sure it does
 
morning
 
@YvetteColomb evening
 
@Zizouz212 :D I need coffee
 
12:40 AM
lol
I hate coffee
 
12:51 AM
goodnight
Too much coffee can be bad for you.
 
@Catija Promoting high-quality answers in various ways would help.
So long as they aren't viewed as "above and beyond", but "this is what the site should look like".
 
@HenryWHHackv2.0 night \o
 
@HenryWHHackv2.0 Night.
 
@HenryWHHackv2.0 See ya
 
12:54 AM
\o7
 
@Zizouz212 That was a greetings.
Since it's night here I was greeting everyone with goodnight.
I think I used it in a wrong way.
 
Aah. Well, hello then :)
 
if timezone() == xyz:
   print xyz
 
This room's run only on Python 2?
 
I don't like the bump thing on it's head.
 
12:57 AM
Why?
 
It looks weird.
 
Why?
 
BTW Is it a boy or girl.
 
-_-
 
@HDE226868 definitely. Being thorough should be normal, not a bonus.
@Zizouz212 That's sort of why I was concerned about linking to posts that don't actually show much consensus. I'm not sure there's much to respond. Though, we really shouldn't need a site specific policy as the network generally requires sourced answers. Posting unsupported content is a great way to earn downvotes.
 
1:08 AM
sigh, I really enjoy commenting as I lower someones score by 2...
 
They'd likely prefer it to you not commenting.
 
Yes, but I need to tell them to try to improve their answer, no?
 
Yes.
 
Now I'm confused
 
1:24 AM
Zizouz212 is confused
 
Nope, never mind.
 
lol
    def confuse_user(user):
        if room.name == 'The Awkward Silence':
            get_user(user).confuse()

    confuse_user('Zizouz212')
Zizouz212 is confused
Me wants to ask a stereotypical question, and then answer with a stereotypical answer...
Q: How can I get my Canadian friend to stop saying sorry to everything? A: Sorry, but that's just how we Canadians are. I'm sorry if that's bugging you, but we can't help ourselves. :P
And then links to Ontario's Apology Act as reference
What is wrong with me...
Oh, found it.
 
    def confuse(user):
        print(user+' is confused')

    try:
        confuse('Zizouz212')
    except NotConfusableError:
        confuse('HDE 226868')
 
Hahaha XD
 
@Zizouz212 What is wrong right with your country?
 
1:37 AM
Oh, I'm sorry that my country knows how to run itself properly :P
And sorry that we made incredible laws
Oh, and sorry for saying sorry earlier. I didn't do anything wrong! I just felt sorry for what happened!
 
import facepalm

facepalm.facepalm()
Okay, enough playing around with code formatting for me.
 
lol XD
Okay now I really want to write a question like that
 
2:12 AM
Haha!
 
2:25 AM
I have prepared a question!
[and answer too!]
Sorry for being crazy folks...
 
NVZ
2:41 AM
@HDE226868 I don't vote to close questions for simply being on topic on another site. That's just letting users know there exists another site which would've been a better place to ask. But it's okay here as well.
 
@NVZ Probably meant the comment by Joe S
 
 
2 hours later…
4:20 AM
How's the site going?
Hello there! Answers on Interpersonal Stack Exchange need to be supported by credible reference or demonstrated personal experience, as outlined in Do we want references in our answers? Please edit to improve your answer to meet the guidelines listed on meta. — Zizouz212 6 hours ago
Really don't recommend even mentioning "credible references". The comment should just focus on experience-based answers.
 
@Hamlet Meh
 
@Zizouz212 took another stab at my camp volunteer answer BTW
0
A: How can I ask an autistic volunteer at camp to be more independent?

HamletI used to work at a camp where I had volunteers. The camp I worked at was within the US, so hopefully my advice is applicable to your specific cultural situation. My experience with volunteers at a camp is the following: The campers are your responsibility, the volunteers are less so your resp...

 
You noticed that?
 
@Zizouz212 it's like, oh, you want a reference? I'll just pop a link to some reddit thread and we'll be done.
 
I just made the comment to fit whatever was mentioned on meta - either your experience, or a credible reference
Meh, I probably should've put something like "authoritative"
But heh, whatever. I can always down vote without leaving a comment (not happening) :P
 
4:26 AM
@Zizouz212 yeah, but in practice, there aren't "authoritative" references for basic social skills. If you want your comments to be helpful, don't even bother distracting the OP with talk about references.
 
Yeah... Newbie mistake
The issue that I'm having is how can personal experience be demonstrated
My bar is very low for that, and I assume it's the same for others
You brought up the idea, how did you want to see it happen?
 
@Zizouz212 find an example of a stellar experience-based answer. (Or better yet, write your own). Figure out what makes it great. Distill that idea into a easily understood comment. And go wild.
 
Thinks about stupid Canada question again...
Sorry :P
@Hamlet Any ideas for a "stellar" answer?
The thing is that I don't want to use these good answers as a standard to reference if they're not actually our quality standard
 
@Zizouz212 I think my answer meets the requirements of a good experience-based answer
0
A: How can I ask an autistic volunteer at camp to be more independent?

HamletI used to work at a camp where I had volunteers. The camp I worked at was within the US, so hopefully my advice is applicable to your specific cultural situation. My experience with volunteers at a camp is the following: The campers are your responsibility, the volunteers are less so your resp...

 
Hold on! I'm reading it :)
 
4:29 AM
Don't know if I would describe it as stellar.
 
You see, I'm conflicted. I disagree with points 2 and 3, but it's a well-written answer
Many volunteers don't do it primarily to earn experience or recognition, but because of an intrinsic desire to help (or so says from my experience)
 
@Zizouz212 point 2 and 3 are informed by point 1 and the cultural context that it's an American summer camp.
They're usually young. My volunteers were typically middle/high schoolers.
But hopefully it's a good experience-based answer?
 
@Hamlet The other issue is that IPS is a broad field. I'm not very confident at placing a single example for a good experience based answer, since the qualities of that answer may not serve as a good model to translate to an answer in a different topic
I'm much more of a guideline person
Also, I'm just putting those comments as something that I put when I down vote the answer
I think I've hit 30 to 40 downvotes on answers already :/
@Hamlet I mean, it's accurate. I'm just not sure how accurate it would be when talking about a volunteer with autism.
Hey @AJ :)
 
A J
@Zizouz212 Mornin'
 
me sees swamps of blue and thinks me talks too much :/
@AJ early mornin'
 
4:38 AM
@Zizouz212 I can't really give good advice about that without knowing more about the situation/it would be hard to spend too much time on this given point #1
 
A J
I see many good questions are asked when I am sleeping. :D
 
@Zizouz212 or find five or six good experience-based answers, figure out what makes them good, distill that knowledge into guidelines, and then go wild with comments/downvotes.
 
I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's just differing viewpoints that we have. I may make a comment showing how I disagree though :)
@Hamlet Okay, but on meta, I also need to garner support for that somehow. And support for things like that have... not been encouraging
 
@Zizouz212 again, you don't need consensus to leave constructive comments about how to improve answers.
 
When I was writing this meta post, a few users and I were going back and forth over what links to put for a "back it up"
 
4:41 AM
It's just that at the moment your comments aren't constructive.
 
By asking for reference?
 
@Zizouz212 asking for references isn't constructive because there aren't any good references, saying that answers should be "experience based" without explaining how to write an "experience-based" answer is confusing and unhelpful.
One way to start could be "could you specify the cultural background that you're writing about in this answer?"
 
But you see, that's not what I'm asking here.
 
@Zizouz212 not really sure what you mean, but I have to go soon.
 
An experience-based answer is simply something that derives from experience. Like I said before, my bar is very low - if an answers even just says "Something that has worked for me before..." is okay for me.
 
4:44 AM
@Zizouz212 well, then why are you downvoting/leaving comments?
My bar is a little higher. The answer should explain why what worked for them will work for the OP, at the very least.
 
I'd much rather put something than nothing if I will down vote, so I'm putting a link to a supported meta post, with a brief summary of what it says
@Hamlet That would be my bar, but I'm trying to start low before working my way up.
 
@Zizouz212 bad idea. Right now all you're asking people to do is change "try x" to "my experience tells me to try x"
And people are saying: those two things are the same thing.
 
@Hamlet To prevent instances like this: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/697/…
 
And they have a point; they are the same thing.
 
@Hamlet I see what you're saying now. The wording was probably very off, I should probably change it.
How would you suggest I phrase a comment?
@AJ So that you can answer 'em when you wake up! :P
 
4:49 AM
@Zizouz212 pretty sure I gave you some templates in this chat room, but I'm not going to find them now.
Anyway, gtg. Good luck!
 
I'll look for them, don't worry :)
See ya @Hamlet!
...
 
A J
5:14 AM
Hey @John
@Zizouz212 But they are already answered when I wake up.
 
I only have two questions I could ask, but they're not very good
1 is on Canadian stereotypes, the other is on... I don't remember :P
 
Then ask them and see how they fly.
 
4 hours ago, by Zizouz212
Q: How can I get my Canadian friend to stop saying sorry to everything? A: Sorry, but that's just how we Canadians are. I'm sorry if that's bugging you, but we can't help ourselves. :P
 
Give you some recent experience similar to what a newbie goes through.
 
If anything, the question is real, just from the perspective of my friend :P
Meh, I could do it... But that would probably be really bad
 
5:27 AM
Bad for you, or for the site?
 
Just in general. And maybe for me.
Especially if I want to be mod
I'll post it here and ask what you think
 
Write it in a text editor, then critique it as if you were going to answer it to see what it needs.
 
@GypsySpellweaver Yes, but that always works since what you read gets replaced by the ideas in your mind
 
Then more practice at distancing might be handy.
Do you do RPGs?
 
Nope
Okay don.
I'm visiting my friend up here in Toronto and one thing that I've noticed is that he constantly apologizes for everything that is outside of his control.

For example, yesterday we went downtown so that I could see what it was like. On our way back, we hit traffic while taking the bus back to his home. Because of the traffic, our first bus was late, so we had to wait for a while to catch our second connecting bus. During that wait, this is what part of the conversation felt like:

> Me: So the next bus is coming in 25 minutes?
That's me question
 
5:33 AM
Drats. And I had such a good parallel :(
 
@GypsySpellweaver Sorry :(
And here's me answer:
Well, Canadians are known for being very apologetic. It's a true stereotype.
Sorry about that.

The stereotype that many Canadians say sorry to everything is very true. It's often been something that [people will make fun of us for][1] (and we'll often play along with it). We say sorry so much, that the [provincial government of Ontario had to write an "Apology Act"][2] to protect us (example: if you get into a car accident, the law says that if someone says "sorry," they are not
admitting fault for the accident). Saying sorry so much has been the [source of many articles][3] as well.
Which is surprisingly long...
 
My answer would be not to tell him to stop saying 'sorry'. Why should he change the way he behaves at home to satisfy the feelings of someone else?
 
@GypsySpellweaver I just said to ignore it or play along with it...
 
The foreigner needs to adapt to the local customs, not the other way around
 
Which is adapting to local customs...
 
5:40 AM
I think playing along is, in part, making fun of the custom, not accepting it. It's saying, even if only in his mind, that there is something wrong with that behavior, but, I'll go along with it for politeness sake.
 
So expand on that?
 
Is that question already asked on-site?
 
Nope.
Just a question and answer I thought about to make fun of my own kind :P
 
Sorry, didn't catch the self-depreciating jibe there.
 
lol
It's a thing for Canadians to make fun of themselves with their own stereotypes </stereotype>
 
5:43 AM
Amazingly enough, USA tends to use "sorry" in similar context frequently
'tis more polite to poke fun at self than others of lesser wit.
 
lol
I think I'll just expand on that last point and then post it. For fun. What do you think?
 
Somehow I came to have a less than provincial world view. Not sure if that's a boon or not.
It might be better to wait for active mods to be available.
There might be a wall of argumentative posts to deal with
 
@GypsySpellweaver Such as? (Not asking to argue, just curious)
 
Would it be considered flame bait?
 
What's flame bait?
 
5:49 AM
Also, can you write the answer according to the back it up guidelines?
 
@GypsySpellweaver Yep. Answer would be mine, but question is from the perspective of the friend.
 
I think flame bait is posts that are expected, or more correctly probably wanted, to attract replies that get heated.
 
Oh. Well, I certainly don't want to get heated (but neither do I think that will happen)
 
The Q is written by a USA person visiting Canada?
And the answer would be from a Canada person?
 
@GypsySpellweaver Can be from anywhere. Didn't specify.
@GypsySpellweaver Yep
 
5:53 AM
meh, Not sure which culture the answer should be from
From the Canada perspective it would be advice on how to be accepted by other Canadians
From the culture of the foreigner, it would be advice on how to "accept" the other culture while in it.
 
Yep.
I tried to provide an introduction on the roots of the behaviour before settling into options. Do you think that worked?
 
Nope.
Well, yes, it shows the roots.
But the "friend" wouldn't have that information available.
 
What do you mean?
 
Hold. Let me scroll back on that.
 
Sure
 
6:00 AM
Ok, had Q and A blended in my brain. The Q needs some clean up in the final sentence, the actual question.
 
How so?
 
As a USA person, the Q would be more like How can I get him to stop appologizing for everything?
 
Ooh, I like that phrasing
 
I wouldn't take it that we has really sorry, just that he was apologizing all the time, and getting on my nerves.
 
Which is chronic for many Canadians
 
6:03 AM
A common phrase in many parts of the USA is I know you're sorry, now apologize.
 
Really? Never heard that before
 
Have you had a friend, or visitor, who went through that problem?
 
Yep
The question is actually modelled after what happened with a friend and I
 
k.
Too me, while the Canadian usage might be slightly more frequent, it seems within norms for me.
Then again, I am less provincial than many others.
 
For what it's worth, I can also mention that my friend was actually relatively new to Canada
 
6:09 AM
Or maybe it's my anthropological view.
Never been there my self.
 
You've never been to Canada??
How?
 
Nope. Native of the American Southwest and never left American soil
How what?
 
How is that possible?
 
You ever been to Mexico?
 
Umm... no :P
 
6:11 AM
Been to USA, more than just across the border for cheaper stuff?
 
Nope. Never crossed into the US. And not planning anytime soon
 
Any more likely I've never been to Canada than you've never been to USA?
 
Realistically speaking though, I'll probably come and do a work-term in the US while I'm in university
 
Never had the money, time, and inclination at the same time.
Though, at one point, I almost did go to Canada. Had a contact I'd have like to visit with for a while.
 
Where in Canada?
 
6:15 AM
South Bathurst
 
Ooh... Up in Nova Scotia
 
Aye.
Would liked to have met her and her hubby.
 
Haha! Me knows my geography :P
 
You know world geo too?
 
Yep
 
6:17 AM
How many time zones are there?
 
Alot?
I'm guessing 24
 
Bare minimum of 39
That's just lines on the map. It's worse if you add in the Yes/No for summer time
 
Oh. DST, +/-:30...
Mountain time, prairie time, ontario, maritimes, newfoundland that stays at +:30...
 
There are time zones, with hourly divisions, from UTC +14 to UTC -12
There are several time zones that are an extra ±:30 and a few that are ±:45
 
@GypsySpellweaver +-:45 too?
 
6:24 AM
Yup. I think there's 3 of them.
 
Didn't know there were 45 minute offsets
 
Katmandu is UTC +5:45
Western Australia is UTC +8:45
 
Really?
 
Chatham in NZ is UTC +12:45, with DST of +13:45
Somewhere, I don't recall, has only a 30min daylight time switch rather than full hour.
 
@GypsySpellweaver Probably a nation close to the equator
 
6:30 AM
Lord Howe Island in Australia
Normal is UTC + 10:30 DST is +11:00
My favorite time zone is AoE (Anywhere on Earth)
 
lol
 
Anyways, it's actually very late now, so I'm going to try to get some sleep. :)
 
You have Eastern Time, yes?
 
Yep
UTC-5 or (UTC-4 with daylight savings)
 
6:35 AM
Ya, it's late (early) there.
 
lol
 
Dormir.
 
Oui, je vais dormir. Merci :)
 
Maybe I will.
 
Oui. Allez-y. Le sommeil est bon!
 
6:40 AM
Follow your example, if you ever do leave the site that is.
 
lol then stop distracting me! Good night :)
 
7:09 AM
0
Q: How can I get out of a phone appointment for a service i no longer feel confortable in having

user1724So last week I was contacted by a financial planner who was affiliated with the tax accountant firm I go to and they talked about reviewing my Superannuation. when offered for an appointment I told them I wasn't sure I needed it but they suggested to book it anyway and when they call I can make u...

 
7:37 AM
Halloooo @AJ
 
 
1 hour later…
8:42 AM
evening all
 
Evening
Not sure how all that is. :/
 
9:03 AM
Lol morning here
And all is currently without me as I'm on holiday x3
But I sometimes come here :3
 
A J
9:41 AM
@Crafter0800 Ahh... kindly check pending edits on a post before editing.
 
9:59 AM
@AJ my apologies, I am on mobile so am unable to access review queues, rest assured if I was on my laptop/pc I would have accepted your edit before editing it myself. Sorry.
 
A J
no worries :)
 
 
3 hours later…
A J
1:13 PM
@Catija Why don't you now use that picture where hippo and Ben called a truce? It's more cute. :D
 
Haven't had the time.
 
A J
Ohh
 
 
1 hour later…
2:29 PM
I'm trying to formulate a question, but I'm struggling a bit with the wording.
 
1
Q: How do I become less self centered?

JaneDoe1337I have noticed that I am quite a self centered person, and this bothers me. Being social, caring about others and investing in a friendship are things I really value in other people, yet I fail to be like that myself. When someone asks me how I am, how my weekend was, or how my job is I am fine ...

 
NVZ
2:53 PM
@ExtrovertedMainMan Are you a bot?
Is that a bot?
NVZ here. Who's online?
Is anybody out there?
 
We had a conversation thread on one of my answers that probably should have occurred in chat instead: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/2/…
 
@NVZ Yeah, he's a bot.
 
NVZ
It feels like I'm talkin' to myself
No one seems to know my struggle
 
@Casebash If you want, you can raise a custom flag and ask for it to be moved to its own chat room.
 
NVZ
And everything I've come from
Can anybody hear me?
 
2:58 PM
If the other participants are still interested.
 
Does that work? there aren't mod yet?
 
No, but Community Managers might handle the flag. We'll likely have mods within a week or so.
 
(By we I mean Zizouz212 and Catja)
They posted:

"Hello there! Answers on Interpersonal Stack Exchange need to be supported by credible reference or demonstrated personal experience, as outlined in Do we want references in our answers? Please edit to improve your answer to meet the guidelines listed on meta."

On one of my answers. I noted that none of the other answers in the same thread met these standards (they've since added a comment to one more answer there)
It seems like this would be quite a sweeping change to current policy. Barely any of the current answers on any question meet this standard.
 
NVZ
I understand you
 
They argued that the top three upvoted answers to this question agreed with them: https://interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/10/do-we-want-references-in-our-answers/191#191, but I pointed out that the second upvoted answer said;

Want = Yes
Require = No

But they wanted to count that as supporting their side of the debate.
 
NVZ
3:05 PM
It's fine. Don't fret.
I don't think we're at that stage to enforce any rules to answering. If we start pestering visitors with "reference or experience, come on!", we'll lose everyone.
 
To be honest, our policy there is sort of a mess. I wish we had something solid.
2
 
NVZ
ELU didn't have strong rules for years.
 
Yeah, I suggested we wait until we have mods (given it'll probably be soon). But they said mods don't set the rules, but the community does
 
NVZ
It's only in the recent few that we started enforcing strict "include your research and references" rule on ELU.
It's not about appointing mods.
It's about letting this evolve into a flourishing community.
And for that we will need to relax some rules for a while.
 
And how do we do this when people have different views of what the rules are?
Like either we should all be enforcing this particular rule or nobody should. We don't want a few people deciding to enforce such a rule on their own
 
NVZ
3:10 PM
Mods are not separate from the community. They are regular users like us, plus benefits.
 
Ideally, I would suggest that someone write an answer to this that the community can get behind.
 
NVZ
So expecting mods to make rules is unfair.
Let the community evolve. Then over time, a consensus will be reached. And mods will ensure there's less friction between users.
 
Someone needs to adjudicate when a particular argument has been won
To say, "Hey guys, the community seems to support X, we will now enforce X"
Otherwise we can't coordinate
 
NVZ
Mods are supposed to be human exception handlers, not policy makers. So if you have suggestions on how the community should go about its business, propose that on meta.
And if you gain a fairly high upvote to downvote ratio, we'll consider that that is what the community as a whole wants the mods to enforce.
 
Well, notice you said "fairly high upvote to downvote ratio", which is not an objective standard
 
NVZ
3:14 PM
@HDE226868 I wish I could. But I don't get the time to write up a meaningful coherent post these days.
 
There is subjectivity there and that's what the mods are there to deal with
And if they do this badly, then the community can complain
 
NVZ
There can never be an objective rule as long as men are free to think different. We can only have a consensus, at least, in a way.
 
Exactly, that's why we need someone to decide
Even if the decision is suppose to always be about whether consensus has been achieved
 
I think the solution is to make sure men aren't free.
 
NVZ
@10Replies Provide solutions based on experience or reference. :P
@HDE226868 I was thinking your profile picture showed a stickman taking a dump. LOL
 
3:21 PM
His profile is the hat guy from XKCD
I personally prefer the french hat guy, but, thats just me,
 
@Casebash Technically, what I said was that that answer doesn't say anything about personal experience, only about citing references.
... which is true.
Your answer doesn't do either, as I went on to explain.
 
NVZ
@Catija Which answer? Let me in on the subject.
 
3:42 PM
The responses to my question have kinda gone off the rails a bit. The dark side of HNQ ;)
Actually, my question wasn't really answered...
 
4:07 PM
night all
 
NVZ
@YvetteColomb Do not go gentle into that good night
 
@YvetteColomb Goodnight, sleep well
@NVZ Rage rage against the dying of the light (I love that part of that poem, the only time poetry ever appealed to me were those few lines)
 
NVZ
Poem, yes. Beautiful. Michael Caine told me this poem, in the future. :)
When crops die. And Cooper has to save the world.
>**Elliot**: Hello, friend. Hello, friend? That's lame. Maybe I should give you a name. But that's a slippery slope. You're only in my head. We have to remember that.
Any of you seen Mr Robot?
Please invite him to IPS.
 
4:40 PM
@HDE226868 @Catija @Zizouz212 with regards to getting a good meta answer up there, here are some points you might find useful to include.
(1) List of suggestions, e.g. try doing x and y, are not answers.
(2) answers should be based on experience. (Or technically reputable sources, but that's a dead end, because there aren't reputable sources for basic social skills).
(3) Writing an experience based answer does not mean transforming "do x" into "I have experience, trust me, do x"
(4) writing an experience based answer means specifying the context of your experience, e.g. when I relocated to Canada for work, something that I had to learn was ...
 
NVZ
@Hamlet Pardon my interruption. Those are great points. Why wouldn't you write an answer there?
 
(5) a good experience-based answer explains why your advice is good. For example: I've been on both sides of the table. From my experience as a retailer, I hate it when ___ because ___. But from my experience as a customer, ______.
@NVZ my only interest in this site is trying to prevent another internet wasteland that the Stack Exchange company, despite it's mission to make the internet a better place, keeps churning out through the Area51 process.
 
NVZ
@Hamlet that's... I'm flagging it as Not An Answer. :P
Come on. You have some great points. Why don't you write an answer?
 
@NVZ I have written answers on meta, you can take a look.
 
NVZ
No no no. I'm asking. Why not write an answer with these points you just listed? It's actually strongly encouraged to answer your own questions on SE.
 
4:49 PM
I might turn this into an answer, but I wanted to see if people find this helpful first.
 
NVZ
To know if people like it, let the votes speak. Post an answer for that.
Here's how I would have done. See for example my meta post. english.meta.stackexchange.com/q/10583/50044
 
@NVZ look, I know how self-answered posts work. In fact, most of my posts on Stack Exchange have been self-answered.
 
NVZ
Ah. I see.
Also, I now notice the blue shade on your username. Apparently you're a mod somewhere. :)
*Awkward.
 
@Hamlet I've been thinking about that for a while - I'm wondering how effective an "experience" requirement would be, how it should be shown in answers, how people could lie their way through it, and how it could be enforced.
I'm wondering whether we need to use a different metric for a "back it up" after all
 
@Zizouz212 no.
 
4:59 PM
No?
 
Don't worry about people lying.
 
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