inheritance, connections, social class

Usually all three.

usually the third generates the first two

to the extent that the 'risk' bit really makes sense by and large, you don't get rich by risking your own money

you get rich by risking other peoples money

@Semiclassical that prof never emailed me back

you really get rich by abusing the labour of other people, which is basically what Semi said

@Dodsy bleh, that's annoying

how's your calc hw gone? (not asking for details)

Regrding inheritance

the people who are below towards the social and economic class borderline are surely at further risk than the ones above, because they are generationally doomed, cut from the social benefits which some 20% of the society gets

I really agre that this might be a flaw in a capitalist system

I've yet to think of a solution for this

and can't pull themselves up from their situation because of how the capitalist system works, definitionally

the poverty cycle is a real thing

@Semiclassical good, I just have to draw a graph, which I'm putting off due to how crappy my graphs look drawn by hand.

yeah

I just don't know any solutions to that

@Dodsy suck it up :P

sir yez sir

can't get better if you don't practice

yeah :D

I second what Semiclassic said. I had colleagues who couldn't draw at all, and I bitched that they needed to practice and make an effort.

the worst part is that I used to think I was an artist and I can't draw a graph to save my life.

Well, Nate, I can draw beautiful math pictures but I can't draw a dog or a cat or ...

haha yes.

good point.

I am very proud of my 3-D drawings in math ...

Also, what do you mean by abusing the labor of other people?

you can basically see the entire last 500 years of history in latin america as a case study in how unequal relationships of exchange are naturally generated by capitalist enterprise, and how people suffer as a result @Meow, it has the pretense of being "free trade" but it often only looks free when we don't examine power relations

Are you talking about businesses having workers?

I would be talking about the president who sued his contractors when they did their job and refused to pay them for what they did.

not paying the appropriate wage for the labor they provide

Here's a major issue I see with increasing the minimum wage

a concurrent issue in marxism is to evaluate labor in terms of capital, and measure it

Nate, there are little tricks to learn about drawing graphs, 3-D pictures, etc.

I really think it would make things worse, not better

The large companies who have a lot of money end up being able to afford paying their workers that wage

lots of businesses don't give a living wage for example, because the owners of the businesses basically are the only ones who can sell the products of the labour of the workers, so it gives the labourers an unequal position in their relationship. So they don't have the power to control their own labour, they are forced to commodify themselves to survive

G'night, @MikeM.

Okay so if you know that any $T_0$ topology on $\le n-1$ points has some point as a closed set, gimme a $T_0$ topology on $n$ points. Then choose a point. If it's closed we're done, otherwise we wanna restrict to a smaller topology...

hi

Yo @Mike

Meanwhile, the small businesses end up having to pay workers money they DONT have

which only REDUCES competition and pushes us further towards the society we all don't want

@Meow Marx's answer is really that the ownership of capital is what is problematic

Also, if you think people are commodifying themselves, why don't they start their own business?

ok I grew up pretty poor, most labourers literally can't afford that, so that's a nonsense response.

@Meow commodifying means they are trying to sell themselves. they are not in a position to strike up a deal with the consumer; they can't be producers in any sense

But you can take a loan?

@TedShifrin night ted.

it's literally impossible to form good credit if you're too poor so no @Meow

LOL, night, Nate.

Oh I thought you were going to bed!

:3

but now I realize it's only 5 there

no, I greeted Mike as per my usual.

silly me

I still think that has to do with an underlying issue of a poverty cycle

poverty cycle is extremely hard to break out of. It's almost impossible to make it anywhere if you start poor, it can happen, but it takes a lot of sheer luck, just working hard is never going to be enough.

Which I've yet to think of a solution for, as I mentioned earlier

I like commodities, I think it's an interesting concept.

@Eric it's interesting to hear the point of view of someone who actually has a background on the worsts of capitalism. i haven't had that fortune.

Unfortunately, there's quite a bit of "law of unintended consequences" when it comes to how one approaches capitalism

@Balarka if you're interested you should read open veins of latin america

i cannot recommend it enough, a lot of my feelings are very well articulated in that book

nice, i probably should try that

Okay, suppose someone is born into poverty

And the people who tend to bear those unintended consequences aren't those at the top. they've got the resources to get by regardless

I still think they can get out of that poverty regardless

when it comes to small businesses, though, I'm more sympathetic.

Provided they finish high school

Yes Meow, they indeed can.

they may not even need to finish highschool

finishing high school is frankly an accomplishment under some circumstances.

I know a few older people that didn't go to high school a single day because they were working on the oil rig

@Meow straight up, it takes luck. I grew up in a poor minority community where people worked themselves to death and very few made it out. You need to be lucky. It takes a lot of small things to build the momentum, and it's not as easy as working hard.

and have lots of $$$

@Dodsy it's pretty hard to do that in the current day and age

that's an opinion.

His son is 30

nah

and his son did the same thing

it's not an opinion

has a house at the top of a ski hill

so?

it's satire, but it seems apropos

I'm just saying it's possible

you are just giving 1 example

By the way, you guys don't think any differently of me for having dissenting views?

I'd hope

It's an opinion that that doesn't happen much these days.

nobody said it's impossible; only a minority break out of the loop

no it's not

okay where are the statistics that prove that it isn't an opinion?

and which country are we talking about?

are we talking about Canada, China, India?

Suppose only a minority break out of the loop

@Dodsy, this is what the poverty cycle is

This doesn't have to be the result of capitalist society

i can give you statistics about India if you want

okay but that's india

you guys are talking like you're talking about a global poverty cycle

it happens in america too, increasing wealth inequality is a manifestation of it that's well documented

so what country are you talking about? where are your statistics?

like in every country in the world there is a social class that you cannot break out of.

In India, social class is still extremely important.

It is much more difficult to get out of poverty.

I don't need statistics.

I am not making a claim.

you are though

I'm saying that to say that "people don't get breaks very often anymore" is an opinion not based on solid facts.

that's a claim

and it's a very broad claim.

you're making a claim that is literally falsifiable by google

No.

like if you are talking about Denmark or Sweden that proportion is going to be pretty low because they are genuinely close to a socialist economy

I am refuting YOUR claim.

that is a claim

a refutation of a claim is still a claim

Anyways, if someone in poverty gets their high school degree, whats stopping them from getting a career?

i don't see any rational argument in what you are saying so i am going to stop paying attention

do you mean me or dodsy

dodsy

How?

literally google statistics on poverty @Dodsy, as someone who grew up in those circumstances what you're saying is like 100% verifiably false nonsense

lol high school degree

In canada, social class does not matter. You just need to work hard and you'll get good things.

im fucking tired

high school diploma*

@Meow: I don't want to interject, but a high school diploma is basically worthless today.

It's not really enough, no

@EricSilva you're still talking about YOUR country.

necessary but not sufficient

@Dodsy so are you

like i said, you're making broad claims.

No.

I live in America, which economically isn't super dissimilar to Canada

I am saying that it is not true for all countries.

god

i just posited possible counterexamples up there ^^^

neither are we

all because I said that a stupid statement was an opinion.

literally "It doesn't happen much these days" is a statement about quantity, it is a quantity with lots of published statistics on it that would support it

This has been remarkably civilized and a fair discussion ... I do want to compliment everyone.

I asked before but I don't think anyone answered

For every country in the world?

Youre view hasn't changed too much on me, right?

What is the rate of occurance of somebody finding a career that leads them to a fullfilling life?

@Ted lol

I don't want to have rivalries because of political beliefs, lol.

how many times do people get good jobs a year in the entire world.

you have that data?

I don't know that that is quantified, Nate. But I would say that most people have an unfulfilling career.

well i have said my share

i'm (face/)off

That's still conjecture. First we could say that the concept of being fulfilled is different from person to person.

Yes? No?

If we find that 3 billion people work at a mcdonalds do we say that none of them are fulfilled?

We need to ask them, don't we?

we can't, we can't be sure what each persons wants and needs are.

Right.

Oh whatever, who cares what people think of me

I'm far from a snob in this regard.

@Meow I mean I was trying to present Marx's critique, which doesn't say anything about what I believe about politics

I like you Zach.

Marx is a very old thinker, and a lot of what he says is outdated, so Idt my views are quite in line with Marx's, in any even I don't think any differently of you for you beliefs, but I do think it's important to examine what great thinkers have said

Meow, don't be defensive. I think this has been an intelligent and undefensive discussion.

I really believe that people can get out of the poverty cycle if they work hard enough. I mean, I would really like to see an example where someone who does work hard can't manage to get out.

OK OK tedulus

My parents have worked their asses off their entire lives

teddo

they are very smart people, and they are very poor

what career did they choose to pursue?

Yeah, there are plenty of people who have been screwed. Despite what the Republican party line says.

"choose"

they didn't choose what they do

they didn't have the schooling, they came to america from a foreign country

yes people can pull through, but everyone needs social and economic support, which most of the society don't get

I don't think that some social support is necessarily bad

for what it's worth my mother wanted to be a biologist and got into the top science institution in Brazil, but she couldn't afford it, so she came here, where she struggled to find work doing anything but housekeeping

@Dodsy, to be fair my claim is fundamentally a relative claim, I meant moreso that it happens less frequently that people are able to move up socio-economic strata in post-industrial parts of the world than it used to. which is straight up is verifiable since it's a far more precise claim.

There are lots of stories about immigrants with tremendous pedigrees from foreign countries got here and were consigned to housekeeping or bookkeeping.

But I think it's a system that relies too much on honor

What's stopping someone from, as some word it, "living off welfare"?

it's p hard to live off welfare

<- someone who was on welfare for significant portions of their life

Hardly any money, Meow.

Despite the stories certain politicians tell.

if it were more extensive, my family would've had an easier time surviving and finding work

but because it's not so extensive, my dad ended up hospitalized himself on multiple occasions with fatigue because he was working himself to death

this is all anecdotal but where i grew up this is a pretty common story for people from my background.

Eric, it's a testament to something that you are where you are, doing superbly.

I'm confused

If you can't live on welfare alone, how are those without jobs supposed to live on it until they can find a job?

lol @Meow that's what I've been wondering most of my life

Indeed.

Okay, so suppose you can live on welfare

Huh?

You know that you can deduce anything from a false assumption.

Suppose welfare was more extensive

I didn't mean it was the condition of today's society

I meant in the hypothetical society with more social benefits that Eric described earlier

oh sorry.

(remove)?

why did you remove?

too offtopic

I was replying to Ted

np

I thought it was somewhat on topic

But I guess it's too late now

regardless of what ways people find to abuse the system of support it doesn't mean that people shouldn't have an extensive support system

Yeah, I thought it was totally on topic.

It was a useful anecdote

also yikes @Dodsy

If people can abuse the system isn't the system flawed by nature?

you will never be able to build a system people can't abuse

but just because a few do you shouldn't punish the people who need it

Right. This is like Gödel incompleteness, except in reverse?

because it is punishment, people actually suffer immensely

and really it's supposed to be a safety net, sometimes things happen that you can't work around; e.g. a hurricane destroyed my home when I was a kid and we spent some time homeless and broke, it's not a fun thing and the lack of a social safety net definitely directly contributed to my fathers poor health in those days

Eric, you had my respect before I knew all this, but you most certainly have more respect now.

@Ted I worked hard and was crazy lucky, I try to never underestimate just how much being lucky saved me, lots of people were just as smart and talented as I am but fell through the cracks and it's why i feel so strongly that poverty is not so simple.

I agree with your viewpoints from a very lucky and entitled stance. You get no arguments from me, but I truly admire what you've accomplished, and I expect you to keep accomplishing more because of the passion and talents you have.

Thanks Ted, means a lot

Of course, I too worked quite hard, but I had far fewer barriers to contend with.

I mean it.

@EricSilva Oh, I'd agree , never trivialise your accomplishments. You're a smart and talented man.

And I hope that other people here will be highly successful, too. That includes you, @Dodsy.

Thanks, Ted. We will wait and see.

due to being on the intricate areas of Bengal I have seen the jaws of poverty but always as a third person. it does feel scary to hear from someone who actually has seen it first-hand and experienced it, and truly feel glad to talk to such a person. good luck and cheers on life in general

well I'm off to enjoy my night.

Nice chat guys.

Hopefully we didn't get too heated.

cya

neh i just disagreed with you lol

@Balarka thanks fam

@Balarka: It's been an interesting ride getting to know you over the last 4 years (I think that's about what it is). I hope you will stay cool and be totally successful.

see ya, @Dodsy.

see ya @Dodsy

Ha! Eric. I beat you by a comma.

lol

i actually get super confused by commas

Oy.

I never understood where to put them

Oh, I mean Oy,

I always wanted like a class on these things just so I could be clear

@Ted hehehe, i think i'm retaining my trolliness feature from 4 years back, minus being a massive ass

I over-commaed early in my life, but then I had great English teachers in 9th and 10th grade and learned.

but I usually just guess and get it right 90% of the time

thanks though

sorry im back

LOL, runs away because Zach is back

Yo!

oh definitely time to run

demon is upon us

Zach, I think your views are largely shaped by your parents and your environment. I think you're highly intelligent and will listen and sort things out for yourself over the next years.

Oh hell, Demonark is back, too?

chat is degenerating

Unfortunately

Demonark = degenerate.

^

i have mentally replaced daminark's persona with sans from undertale now

omg that's so accurate

But I'm not in the demonic state of mind right now so I'm prob gonna be talking holds breath math for once

i hope he can put up a good fight tho

Not that I understood that one iota.

Have your parents kicked you out yet, Demonark?

Daminark is lost to the Peter May camp

Thank goodness I have you to rely upon, Eric.

Nope, still at home

lol

everyone's going cray cray on may

I disavow any knowledge thereof.

May always wears the same clothes

Oh, are they covered in chalk?

hey, that's pretty good

that's basically all I know about him

I had a prof (whom I loved) at Berkeley like that.

Black corduroys, always chalk-covered.

I mean, I suppose I live in a largely conservative area

Actually, somewhat well-known around here because of his analysis text.

I did not notice that but I will check later

who is it?

Pugh?

@Meow: There are far worse areas for that.

Yup, Pugh.

OHH

I read that book in high school

I took a year-long grad dynamical systems course from him. He was fabulous, although I did try to teach him how to use blackboards and gave up.

I'm glad I took a break from programming the last couple days

I actually don't know his book, but I can imagine it's way better than Rudin, because he actually uses/understands multivariable analysis every day.

Wait there's a way not to get covered in chalk?

I think last week i programmed 30 hours in 4 days

i came into the second semester of a real analysis course at the local uni where i lived that used the book and I thought it was WAY better than rudin @Ted

Demonark: I was never covered in chalk. Pants pockets, yeah.

the first semester having been a Rudin course

I have total respect for Pugh, Eric.

I was super into that book when i took that class

it was great