Mathematics - 2017-09-15 (page 1 of 7)

Semiclassical

12:00 AM

inheritance, connections, social class

Ted Shifrin

Usually all three.

Eric Silva

usually the third generates the first two

Semiclassical

to the extent that the 'risk' bit really makes sense by and large, you don't get rich by risking your own money

you get rich by risking other peoples money

Dodsy

@Semiclassical that prof never emailed me back

Eric Silva

you really get rich by abusing the labour of other people, which is basically what Semi said

Semiclassical

12:02 AM

@Dodsy bleh, that's annoying

how's your calc hw gone? (not asking for details)

Meow Mix

Regrding inheritance

Balarka Sen

the people who are below towards the social and economic class borderline are surely at further risk than the ones above, because they are generationally doomed, cut from the social benefits which some 20% of the society gets

Meow Mix

I really agre that this might be a flaw in a capitalist system

I've yet to think of a solution for this

Balarka Sen

and can't pull themselves up from their situation because of how the capitalist system works, definitionally

Eric Silva

the poverty cycle is a real thing

Dodsy

12:03 AM

@Semiclassical good, I just have to draw a graph, which I'm putting off due to how crappy my graphs look drawn by hand.

Balarka Sen

yeah

Meow Mix

I just don't know any solutions to that

Semiclassical

@Dodsy suck it up :P

Dodsy

sir yez sir

Semiclassical

can't get better if you don't practice

Dodsy

12:04 AM

yeah :D

Ted Shifrin

I second what Semiclassic said. I had colleagues who couldn't draw at all, and I bitched that they needed to practice and make an effort.

Dodsy

the worst part is that I used to think I was an artist and I can't draw a graph to save my life.

Ted Shifrin

Well, Nate, I can draw beautiful math pictures but I can't draw a dog or a cat or ...

Dodsy

haha yes.

good point.

Ted Shifrin

I am very proud of my 3-D drawings in math ...

Meow Mix

12:05 AM

Also, what do you mean by abusing the labor of other people?

Eric Silva

you can basically see the entire last 500 years of history in latin america as a case study in how unequal relationships of exchange are naturally generated by capitalist enterprise, and how people suffer as a result @Meow, it has the pretense of being "free trade" but it often only looks free when we don't examine power relations

Meow Mix

Are you talking about businesses having workers?

Ted Shifrin

I would be talking about the president who sued his contractors when they did their job and refused to pay them for what they did.

Balarka Sen

not paying the appropriate wage for the labor they provide

Meow Mix

Here's a major issue I see with increasing the minimum wage

Balarka Sen

12:07 AM

a concurrent issue in marxism is to evaluate labor in terms of capital, and measure it

Ted Shifrin

Nate, there are little tricks to learn about drawing graphs, 3-D pictures, etc.

Meow Mix

I really think it would make things worse, not better

The large companies who have a lot of money end up being able to afford paying their workers that wage

Eric Silva

lots of businesses don't give a living wage for example, because the owners of the businesses basically are the only ones who can sell the products of the labour of the workers, so it gives the labourers an unequal position in their relationship. So they don't have the power to control their own labour, they are forced to commodify themselves to survive

Ted Shifrin

G'night, @MikeM.

Daminark

Okay so if you know that any $T_0$ topology on $\le n-1$ points has some point as a closed set, gimme a $T_0$ topology on $n$ points. Then choose a point. If it's closed we're done, otherwise we wanna restrict to a smaller topology...

Mike Miller

12:08 AM

hi

Daminark

Yo @Mike

Meow Mix

Meanwhile, the small businesses end up having to pay workers money they DONT have

which only REDUCES competition and pushes us further towards the society we all don't want

Eric Silva

@Meow Marx's answer is really that the ownership of capital is what is problematic

Meow Mix

Also, if you think people are commodifying themselves, why don't they start their own business?

Eric Silva

ok I grew up pretty poor, most labourers literally can't afford that, so that's a nonsense response.

Balarka Sen

12:12 AM

@Meow commodifying means they are trying to sell themselves. they are not in a position to strike up a deal with the consumer; they can't be producers in any sense

Meow Mix

But you can take a loan?

Dodsy

@TedShifrin night ted.

Eric Silva

it's literally impossible to form good credit if you're too poor so no @Meow

Ted Shifrin

LOL, night, Nate.

Dodsy

Oh I thought you were going to bed!

:3

but now I realize it's only 5 there

Ted Shifrin

12:13 AM

no, I greeted Mike as per my usual.

Dodsy

silly me

Meow Mix

I still think that has to do with an underlying issue of a poverty cycle

Eric Silva

poverty cycle is extremely hard to break out of. It's almost impossible to make it anywhere if you start poor, it can happen, but it takes a lot of sheer luck, just working hard is never going to be enough.

Meow Mix

Which I've yet to think of a solution for, as I mentioned earlier

Dodsy

I like commodities, I think it's an interesting concept.

Balarka Sen

12:15 AM

@Eric it's interesting to hear the point of view of someone who actually has a background on the worsts of capitalism. i haven't had that fortune.

Semiclassical

Unfortunately, there's quite a bit of "law of unintended consequences" when it comes to how one approaches capitalism

Eric Silva

@Balarka if you're interested you should read open veins of latin america

i cannot recommend it enough, a lot of my feelings are very well articulated in that book

Balarka Sen

nice, i probably should try that

Meow Mix

Okay, suppose someone is born into poverty

Semiclassical

And the people who tend to bear those unintended consequences aren't those at the top. they've got the resources to get by regardless

Meow Mix

12:16 AM

I still think they can get out of that poverty regardless

Semiclassical

when it comes to small businesses, though, I'm more sympathetic.

Meow Mix

Provided they finish high school

Dodsy

Yes Meow, they indeed can.

they may not even need to finish highschool

Semiclassical

finishing high school is frankly an accomplishment under some circumstances.

Dodsy

I know a few older people that didn't go to high school a single day because they were working on the oil rig

Eric Silva

12:17 AM

@Meow straight up, it takes luck. I grew up in a poor minority community where people worked themselves to death and very few made it out. You need to be lucky. It takes a lot of small things to build the momentum, and it's not as easy as working hard.

Dodsy

and have lots of $$$

Eric Silva

@Dodsy it's pretty hard to do that in the current day and age

Dodsy

that's an opinion.

His son is 30

Eric Silva

nah

Dodsy

and his son did the same thing

Semiclassical

12:18 AM

How Do Construction Workers Push Their Bodies To Finish Olympic Stadiums On Time?

►

Balarka Sen

it's not an opinion

Dodsy

has a house at the top of a ski hill

Eric Silva

so?

Semiclassical

it's satire, but it seems apropos

Dodsy

I'm just saying it's possible

Balarka Sen

12:18 AM

you are just giving 1 example

Meow Mix

By the way, you guys don't think any differently of me for having dissenting views?

I'd hope

Dodsy

It's an opinion that that doesn't happen much these days.

Balarka Sen

nobody said it's impossible; only a minority break out of the loop

no it's not

Dodsy

okay where are the statistics that prove that it isn't an opinion?

and which country are we talking about?

are we talking about Canada, China, India?

Meow Mix

Suppose only a minority break out of the loop

Eric Silva

12:20 AM

@Dodsy, this is what the poverty cycle is

Meow Mix

This doesn't have to be the result of capitalist society

Balarka Sen

i can give you statistics about India if you want

Dodsy

okay but that's india

you guys are talking like you're talking about a global poverty cycle

Eric Silva

it happens in america too, increasing wealth inequality is a manifestation of it that's well documented

Balarka Sen

so what country are you talking about? where are your statistics?

Dodsy

12:21 AM

like in every country in the world there is a social class that you cannot break out of.

In India, social class is still extremely important.

It is much more difficult to get out of poverty.

I don't need statistics.

I am not making a claim.

Eric Silva

you are though

Dodsy

I'm saying that to say that "people don't get breaks very often anymore" is an opinion not based on solid facts.

Eric Silva

that's a claim

Dodsy

and it's a very broad claim.

Eric Silva

you're making a claim that is literally falsifiable by google

Dodsy

12:22 AM

No.

Balarka Sen

like if you are talking about Denmark or Sweden that proportion is going to be pretty low because they are genuinely close to a socialist economy

Dodsy

I am refuting YOUR claim.

Eric Silva

that is a claim

a refutation of a claim is still a claim

Meow Mix

Anyways, if someone in poverty gets their high school degree, whats stopping them from getting a career?

Balarka Sen

i don't see any rational argument in what you are saying so i am going to stop paying attention

Meow Mix

12:23 AM

do you mean me or dodsy

Balarka Sen

dodsy

Dodsy

How?

Eric Silva

literally google statistics on poverty @Dodsy, as someone who grew up in those circumstances what you're saying is like 100% verifiably false nonsense

Meow Mix

lol high school degree

Dodsy

In canada, social class does not matter. You just need to work hard and you'll get good things.

Meow Mix

12:23 AM

im fucking tired

high school diploma*

Ted Shifrin

@Meow: I don't want to interject, but a high school diploma is basically worthless today.

Semiclassical

It's not really enough, no

Dodsy

@EricSilva you're still talking about YOUR country.

Semiclassical

necessary but not sufficient

Balarka Sen

@Dodsy so are you

Dodsy

12:24 AM

like i said, you're making broad claims.

No.

Eric Silva

I live in America, which economically isn't super dissimilar to Canada

Dodsy

I am saying that it is not true for all countries.

god

Balarka Sen

i just posited possible counterexamples up there ^^^

neither are we

Dodsy

all because I said that a stupid statement was an opinion.

Eric Silva

literally "It doesn't happen much these days" is a statement about quantity, it is a quantity with lots of published statistics on it that would support it

Ted Shifrin

12:25 AM

This has been remarkably civilized and a fair discussion ... I do want to compliment everyone.

Meow Mix

I asked before but I don't think anyone answered

Dodsy

For every country in the world?

Meow Mix

Youre view hasn't changed too much on me, right?

Dodsy

What is the rate of occurance of somebody finding a career that leads them to a fullfilling life?

Balarka Sen

@Ted lol

Dodsy

12:26 AM

in the entire world.

Meow Mix

I don't want to have rivalries because of political beliefs, lol.

Dodsy

how many times do people get good jobs a year in the entire world.

you have that data?

Ted Shifrin

I don't know that that is quantified, Nate. But I would say that most people have an unfulfilling career.

Balarka Sen

well i have said my share

i'm (face/)off

Dodsy

That's still conjecture. First we could say that the concept of being fulfilled is different from person to person.

Meow Mix

12:27 AM

Yes? No?

Dodsy

If we find that 3 billion people work at a mcdonalds do we say that none of them are fulfilled?

Ted Shifrin

We need to ask them, don't we?

Dodsy

we can't, we can't be sure what each persons wants and needs are.

Right.

Meow Mix

Oh whatever, who cares what people think of me

Ted Shifrin

I'm far from a snob in this regard.

Eric Silva

12:28 AM

@Meow I mean I was trying to present Marx's critique, which doesn't say anything about what I believe about politics

Dodsy

I like you Zach.

Eric Silva

Marx is a very old thinker, and a lot of what he says is outdated, so Idt my views are quite in line with Marx's, in any even I don't think any differently of you for you beliefs, but I do think it's important to examine what great thinkers have said

Ted Shifrin

Meow, don't be defensive. I think this has been an intelligent and undefensive discussion.

Meow Mix

I really believe that people can get out of the poverty cycle if they work hard enough. I mean, I would really like to see an example where someone who does work hard can't manage to get out.

OK OK tedulus

Eric Silva

My parents have worked their asses off their entire lives

Meow Mix

12:30 AM

teddo

Eric Silva

they are very smart people, and they are very poor

Meow Mix

what career did they choose to pursue?

Ted Shifrin

Yeah, there are plenty of people who have been screwed. Despite what the Republican party line says.

Eric Silva

"choose"

they didn't choose what they do

they didn't have the schooling, they came to america from a foreign country

Balarka Sen

yes people can pull through, but everyone needs social and economic support, which most of the society don't get

Meow Mix

12:31 AM

I don't think that some social support is necessarily bad

Eric Silva

for what it's worth my mother wanted to be a biologist and got into the top science institution in Brazil, but she couldn't afford it, so she came here, where she struggled to find work doing anything but housekeeping

@Dodsy, to be fair my claim is fundamentally a relative claim, I meant moreso that it happens less frequently that people are able to move up socio-economic strata in post-industrial parts of the world than it used to. which is straight up is verifiable since it's a far more precise claim.

Ted Shifrin

There are lots of stories about immigrants with tremendous pedigrees from foreign countries got here and were consigned to housekeeping or bookkeeping.

Meow Mix

But I think it's a system that relies too much on honor

What's stopping someone from, as some word it, "living off welfare"?

Eric Silva

it's p hard to live off welfare

<- someone who was on welfare for significant portions of their life

Ted Shifrin

Hardly any money, Meow.

Despite the stories certain politicians tell.

Eric Silva

12:33 AM

if it were more extensive, my family would've had an easier time surviving and finding work

but because it's not so extensive, my dad ended up hospitalized himself on multiple occasions with fatigue because he was working himself to death

this is all anecdotal but where i grew up this is a pretty common story for people from my background.

Ted Shifrin

Eric, it's a testament to something that you are where you are, doing superbly.

Meow Mix

I'm confused

If you can't live on welfare alone, how are those without jobs supposed to live on it until they can find a job?

Eric Silva

lol @Meow that's what I've been wondering most of my life

Ted Shifrin

Indeed.

Meow Mix

Okay, so suppose you can live on welfare

Ted Shifrin

12:37 AM

Huh?

You know that you can deduce anything from a false assumption.

Meow Mix

Suppose welfare was more extensive

I didn't mean it was the condition of today's society

I meant in the hypothetical society with more social benefits that Eric described earlier

Dodsy

oh sorry.

Meow Mix

(remove)?

why did you remove?

Dodsy

too offtopic

Meow Mix

I was replying to Ted

Dodsy

12:39 AM

np

Meow Mix

I thought it was somewhat on topic

But I guess it's too late now

Eric Silva

regardless of what ways people find to abuse the system of support it doesn't mean that people shouldn't have an extensive support system

Ted Shifrin

Yeah, I thought it was totally on topic.

Balarka Sen

It was a useful anecdote

also yikes @Dodsy

Meow Mix

If people can abuse the system isn't the system flawed by nature?

Eric Silva

12:41 AM

you will never be able to build a system people can't abuse

but just because a few do you shouldn't punish the people who need it

Ted Shifrin

Right. This is like Gödel incompleteness, except in reverse?

Eric Silva

because it is punishment, people actually suffer immensely

and really it's supposed to be a safety net, sometimes things happen that you can't work around; e.g. a hurricane destroyed my home when I was a kid and we spent some time homeless and broke, it's not a fun thing and the lack of a social safety net definitely directly contributed to my fathers poor health in those days

Ted Shifrin

Eric, you had my respect before I knew all this, but you most certainly have more respect now.

Eric Silva

@Ted I worked hard and was crazy lucky, I try to never underestimate just how much being lucky saved me, lots of people were just as smart and talented as I am but fell through the cracks and it's why i feel so strongly that poverty is not so simple.

Ted Shifrin

I agree with your viewpoints from a very lucky and entitled stance. You get no arguments from me, but I truly admire what you've accomplished, and I expect you to keep accomplishing more because of the passion and talents you have.

Eric Silva

12:47 AM

Thanks Ted, means a lot

Ted Shifrin

Of course, I too worked quite hard, but I had far fewer barriers to contend with.

I mean it.

Dodsy

@EricSilva Oh, I'd agree , never trivialise your accomplishments. You're a smart and talented man.

Ted Shifrin

And I hope that other people here will be highly successful, too. That includes you, @Dodsy.

Dodsy

Thanks, Ted. We will wait and see.

Balarka Sen

due to being on the intricate areas of Bengal I have seen the jaws of poverty but always as a third person. it does feel scary to hear from someone who actually has seen it first-hand and experienced it, and truly feel glad to talk to such a person. good luck and cheers on life in general

Dodsy

12:51 AM

well I'm off to enjoy my night.

Nice chat guys.

Hopefully we didn't get too heated.

Balarka Sen

cya

neh i just disagreed with you lol

Eric Silva

@Balarka thanks fam

Ted Shifrin

@Balarka: It's been an interesting ride getting to know you over the last 4 years (I think that's about what it is). I hope you will stay cool and be totally successful.

see ya, @Dodsy.

Eric Silva

see ya @Dodsy

Ted Shifrin

Ha! Eric. I beat you by a comma.

Eric Silva

12:52 AM

lol

i actually get super confused by commas

Ted Shifrin

Oy.

Eric Silva

I never understood where to put them

Ted Shifrin

Oh, I mean Oy,

Eric Silva

I always wanted like a class on these things just so I could be clear

Balarka Sen

@Ted hehehe, i think i'm retaining my trolliness feature from 4 years back, minus being a massive ass

Ted Shifrin

12:53 AM

I over-commaed early in my life, but then I had great English teachers in 9th and 10th grade and learned.

Eric Silva

but I usually just guess and get it right 90% of the time

Balarka Sen

thanks though

Meow Mix

sorry im back

Ted Shifrin

LOL, runs away because Zach is back

Daminark

Yo!

Balarka Sen

12:54 AM

oh definitely time to run

demon is upon us

Ted Shifrin

Zach, I think your views are largely shaped by your parents and your environment. I think you're highly intelligent and will listen and sort things out for yourself over the next years.

Oh hell, Demonark is back, too?

Eric Silva

chat is degenerating

Daminark

Unfortunately

Ted Shifrin

Demonark = degenerate.

Eric Silva

^

Balarka Sen

12:55 AM

i have mentally replaced daminark's persona with sans from undertale now

Eric Silva

omg that's so accurate

Daminark

But I'm not in the demonic state of mind right now so I'm prob gonna be talking holds breath math for once

Balarka Sen

i hope he can put up a good fight tho

Ted Shifrin

Not that I understood that one iota.

Have your parents kicked you out yet, Demonark?

Eric Silva

Daminark is lost to the Peter May camp

Ted Shifrin

12:56 AM

Thank goodness I have you to rely upon, Eric.

Daminark

Nope, still at home

Balarka Sen

lol

everyone's going cray cray on may

Ted Shifrin

I disavow any knowledge thereof.

Eric Silva

May always wears the same clothes

Ted Shifrin

Oh, are they covered in chalk?

Balarka Sen

12:57 AM

hey, that's pretty good

Eric Silva

that's basically all I know about him

Ted Shifrin

I had a prof (whom I loved) at Berkeley like that.

Black corduroys, always chalk-covered.

Meow Mix

I mean, I suppose I live in a largely conservative area

Ted Shifrin

Actually, somewhat well-known around here because of his analysis text.

Daminark

I did not notice that but I will check later

Eric Silva

12:58 AM

who is it?

Daminark

Pugh?

Ted Shifrin

@Meow: There are far worse areas for that.

Yup, Pugh.

Eric Silva

OHH

I read that book in high school

Ted Shifrin

I took a year-long grad dynamical systems course from him. He was fabulous, although I did try to teach him how to use blackboards and gave up.

Meow Mix

I'm glad I took a break from programming the last couple days

Ted Shifrin

12:58 AM

I actually don't know his book, but I can imagine it's way better than Rudin, because he actually uses/understands multivariable analysis every day.

Daminark

Wait there's a way not to get covered in chalk?

Meow Mix

I think last week i programmed 30 hours in 4 days

Eric Silva

i came into the second semester of a real analysis course at the local uni where i lived that used the book and I thought it was WAY better than rudin @Ted

Ted Shifrin

Demonark: I was never covered in chalk. Pants pockets, yeah.

Eric Silva

the first semester having been a Rudin course

Ted Shifrin

12:59 AM

I have total respect for Pugh, Eric.

Eric Silva

I was super into that book when i took that class

it was great

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ Mathematics