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8:00 PM
(Good thing I have the right to bear these things)
 
derp
third of a semicircle
 
@Semiclassical that mistake was a good case for your psychology comment ;)
 
yup
I don't have to think about 60 degrees, I just know it
 
While I don't use $\tau$, I will leave things like $\dfrac{2\pi}{10}$ unsimplified sometimes
 
whereas for pi/3 i immediately think of a semicircle divided into 3 wedges
Where this comes into physics is stuff like $\omega$ vs. $\nu$
($\nu$ is another case: I think it's better practice to use $\nu$ than $f$ for frequency, but in relating to $\omega$ I always think of $\omega=2\pi f$. but that can be chalked up to intro-level classes always using $f$)
 
8:03 PM
If $2\pi=\tau$ does $2\omega=\nu$
or $\upsilon$
 
Hold on. LaTeX test. $\nu v\upsilon$
 
$[\nu]=$ cycles per second = Hz
 
$\hat\nu={}$fancy new sombrero
 
lolyes
 
8:05 PM
Incidentally, I got a haircut and none of you noticed
I am offended
 
:( sorry
 
$!`\hat{\nu}!$
 
@Semiclassical ?
 
:(
I'm trying to do an inverted !
 
I need a haircut but I probably won't get one
 
8:06 PM
$¡\hat\nu!$
 
$\textexclamdown \hat{\nu}!$
dangit
 
Yeah so MathJax idn't all fancy-like
 
c-p-ing the inverted exclamation character just gives an i
which is a bit disappointing
 
$\text{Che boludo vení acá}$
 
8:10 PM
That's just what it looks like in this font, I guess. ¡Inaceptable!
 
right
I was trying to make a joke about you calling it a sombrero
but that failed
 
Hm. $\accent a$
$\'a$
$\acute a$
Ah
$\acute\angle$
$\obtuse\angle$
:(
 
that accent is so far up
it's in outer space
 
Right. What were we talking about?
Radians
 
I always forget the Lie derivative. If $T$ is a tensor field in general say, $\mathcal{L}_X T$ is $\partial_t \rho_t^* T$ or $\partial_t (\rho_t)_* T$?
god i have started writing like a physicist
2
i mean do you pull $T$ back by flowing for a little while or do you flow $T$ for a little while?
 
8:24 PM
Differential geometry gives a whole new meaning to "The cake is a Lie!"
 
The cake... is a pie
 
Okay the natural thing to say is it's $\partial_t (\rho_{-t})_* T$, in which case these are the same things
 
The cake is a lie because the cake is a pie
 
@AkivaWeinberger Pies, damned pies, and statistics.
2
 
@Balarka: What makes it confusing is whether $T$ is covariant, contravariant, or mixed.
Howdy, DogAteMy.
oh, hi, Tobias.
 
8:28 PM
@TedShifrin yeeeeaaaahh.....
ugh
 
@TedShifrin hearing that, I start longing for indices
 
I use plenty of indices ... and even an occasional table of contents.
 
Hey Tobias and Ted!
 
loool
 
Hi people
 
8:29 PM
@Semiclassical gulp
 
Hi Demonark ... My previous sentence was for you.
 
Oh that is pure gold
 
Started grading today
 
Grading whom/what?
 
my index finger starts twitching at the thought of indices
 
8:30 PM
hi @Ted
 
@TedShifrin written algebra exams
 
Heya, demonic Alessandro.
 
being able to write $A^{\mu\nu}$, $A^{\mu}_{\;\nu},$ and $A_{\mu\nu}$ is a good thing in my book
 
Ohhh, your students, Tobias?
 
Hi @Ted @Daminark @Balarka @Alessandro @Tobias
 
8:30 PM
Hey @Mathein!
 
Guten Abend, @Mathein
 
@TedShifrin yep. 93 exams to grade
 
Hey Mathein!
 
Now you found out how you really did, @Tobias :)
 
And Alessandro!
 
8:31 PM
I wish you god gradespeed
 
@TedShifrin Yeah
 
there we go
 
hi @Mathei
 
I like this problem, but it's the kind which there's not a lot of hints to give which don't give the game away: math.stackexchange.com/q/2611207/137524
 
I never remember how to cross stuff out in html.
 
8:32 PM
At least on exam attendance it looks good. Of the people enrolled in the course, only 4 did not qualify for the exam, and all those 4 had completely abandoned their studies. And of the people qualified for the exam, only 4 did not show up
 
--- like this --- without the spaces
like this
 
oh ... but I still won't remember unless I use it a lot.
 
what confuses me is that ---text---text doesn't work
 
You can always practice
 
it only works once I put a space in between the last dash and other text
 
8:33 PM
@Tobias: Is it like what Alessandro and Kasmir do? Students can take the exam later as well, or wait until they study more?
that makes sense, Semiclassic
 
so "text text" is fine
 
This sentence has been strikethroughed
 
so you can't cross out part of a word
 
@TedShifrin I am not actually sure what the precise rules are
 
Balarka is going to speak only in deleted sentences. I can see it now.
 
8:34 PM
Can you double strike? ---Test Here---
Naw
frick
 
Is that better or worse than speaking in memes?
 
In the US we don't allow you to retake the exam, typically, Tobias.
 
My favourite experience in grading was the statement "$G$ is isomorphic, but $H$ is not" to question whether $G$ and $H$ are isomorphic. I also liked the student who spend over four pages computing the determinant of a 5x5 matrix repeatedly using Laplace expansion on rows that had no zeroes at all, although it was a god damn lower block matrix made of 1x1,2x2 and 2x2 blocks
 
@Mathein Is that not a classic gag?
I think it's in Mathoverflow
 
@Mathein: That's like the fight I had with Faust earlier about groups being homomorphic.
 
8:35 PM
@MatheinBoulomenos One of the exam problems here has them show that a set of congruences has precisely 2 solutions in the interval from $0$ to $118$. One student claimed to have checked them all
 
it actually happened, maybe the student made a joke, but he also spend some time writing nonsense to prove it
@TobiasKildetoft lol
 
Yeah, are my two second fingers called indices?
 
@MatheinBoulomenos Dear god
 
I can't quite put my finger on that, DogAteMy.
 
@TedShifrin They can't redo the exam if they pass, only if they fail or don't show up
Not quite sure what the rules are about not showing up
 
8:37 PM
Can one say "this map is homomorphic"? I'm not actually sure
 
homomorphism rather
 
"this map is a homomorphism", sure
 
I wouldn't say it, it feels wrong
 
Yeah, I don't like it either
especially since I could just say "this map preserves the group operation"
 
Tobias: In the US, if you fail the exam typically you fail the course. I have been generous on a few occasions and broken rules to allow people a last chance to pass if they needed it to graduate (open-book retake of the final but you need to score 80 or some such) — not once has a student ever passed.
 
8:38 PM
@Mathein so I graded for discrete in the fall and one of the problems was that if you have an $n$-letter alphabet, find the probability that a word of length $k$ has no repeated letters
 
@TedShifrin Ahh, in that sense. The exam is the sole decider here as well for whether you pass the course
 
That doesn't seem unfair, Demonark.
 
The homework is purely to be qualified for the exam
 
@Tobias: For me typically the final exam is 25% to 35%.
 
And one of the students' answers was $\frac{\dbinom{27}{k}}{n^k}$
 
8:39 PM
Did someone give a finite probability when $k>n$?
 
Some courses I count homework close to 50%.
 
@TedShifrin Yeah, American students are often surprised that our exams are 100%
 
(This was on a homework problem, not a test, just in funny stories of ridiculous answers to stuff)
 
@Daminark where the heck did he get the $27$ from?
 
I do not like that, Tobias. I would NOT want to teach under such a system.
 
8:39 PM
lol
tbh it should have been 42 not 27
 
I don't know, like I just burst out laughing in the grading room, showed it to the other grader, to the prof, and naturally gave a 0
 
My favorite HW story remains the student who, when confronted with a step they didn't know how to justify, wrote "why? because f*** you that's why"
 
@TedShifrin I have never seen any huge problems with it. But then, I have been used to it since high school
 
I'm guessing he was thinking of the English alphabet having 26 letters, and then decided to add 1 for good measure
But even then, in the denominator he used $n$, like he acknowledged that the alphabet had $n$ letters
(Also if we swap out 27 with $n$ the answer is still wrong)
 
I could have been offended, but I laughed
 
8:41 PM
For one thing, Tobias, an exam can only (fairly) test a certain tiny amount of the core material. I generally want to use exams to determine competence (and maybe a little bit to delineate Bs and As), but the real challenges come on homeworks.
 
0
Q: Completely Normal--Showing Sets are Closed in a Certain Subspace

user193319 If $X$ is a completely normal topological space, then for every pair of separated sets $A,B$ (i.e., $\overline{A} \cap B = \emptyset = A \cap \overline{B}$), there exist disjoint open sets $U$ and $V$ such that $A \subseteq U$ and $B \subseteq V$ [hint: consider $X-(\overline{A} \cap \overline...

 
Demonark: This counts all anagrams of a word as the same word ... but he forgot to do that in the denominator.
 
should be n!/(n-k)!/n^k, I think?
i.e. k! (n choose k)/n^k
 
yeah I'd prefer it if the hw counts for something here, too
 
@Semiclassical mhm
 
8:42 PM
kk
and it stops making sense when n<k, phew
 
there are n(n-1)...(n-k+1) ways to choose k things out of n things without replacement
 
@user193319 What does "completely normal" mean again?
To be honest, it sounds a bit suspicious
 
most courses here just have hw for exam qualification, although some courses have graded hw (the diff geo people like to that)
 
@Balarka: What do you think about this? The OP put the same wrong tags back after I removed them ... I actually have never thought about homotopy type of 3-element topological spaces. Have you?
 
That's right Semi and Balarka
 
8:43 PM
kk
 
@TedShifrin They can be complicated... it can have the weak homotopy type of a circle....
 
Like someone claiming they are "totally not a robot"
 
And I've found that the final here is usually 40-50% of the grade, 2 hours long
Though each prof does their own thing in that regard
 
I can't even begin to visualize what a homotopy looks like, @Balarka.
 
@TedShifrin Ah, think about S^1 partitioned into 3 equal arcs.
 
8:44 PM
DogAteMy: If I remember correctly, those are spaces in which the Urysohn Lemma holds.
 
Now think about S^1/~ where ~ quotients the interior of the 3 arcs
 
@AkivaWeinberger "I probably know more about X than anyone else" = "I don't know s***"
 
@Balarka: But that's totally symmetric, for starters. The space in that question has two closed points and one non-closed point.
 
unless you're a grad student, in which case that's less a brag and more a cry for help
 
@TedShifrin Oh ok let me take a look at the q
 
8:45 PM
That thing is $[0,1]$ quotiented by the equivalence classes $\{0\}$, $(0,1)$, and $\{1\}$, right?
Representing $a$, $b$ and $c$ respectively
 
Seems like it
 
And $[0,1]$ is contractible, which probably means $\{a,b,c\}$ is as well but I'm not sure
 
Yup
 
Do homotopies translate over quotients like that?
 
I've honestly never thought about it.
 
8:47 PM
Hm, they should.
 
You can write it down explicitly.
Let f_t : [0, 1] --> [0, 1] be the nullhomotopy
 
Still, the differential geometry/topology tags really bothered me.
 
Think about g_t : [0, 1]/~ --> [0, 1]/~
 
Right. Contract $[0,1]$ to $\{0.5\}$
which corresponds to $f_0$ being the identity and $f_1$ mapping it identically to $\{b\}$
 
That space isn't connected, is it? Hmm ...
 
8:48 PM
That's it
@TedShifrin It is, isn't it?
 
Oh, I guess it is.
 
You can't write it as disjoint union of open sets
 
The one open point is the intersection of the two open non-point sets.
 
It's also a quotient of a connected space, like Akiva wrote, so.
 
Yeah, DogAteMy should post his observation as a hint.
 
8:49 PM
Hint: This is $[0,1]$ quotiented by the equivalence relation whose equivalence classes are $\{0\}$, $(0,1)$, and $\{1\}$. — Akiva Weinberger 57 secs ago
 
LOL, oh, well done.
hi Eric
 
Heyo
 
You can actually build a lot of finite topological spaces by quotienting interiors of simplicies of a simplicial complex like I or Akiva suggested
With nontrivial homotopy type
Peter May has a textbook on that
a purely combinatorial approach to homotopy theory
 
I honestly have never thought about this in my almost 50 years as a math geek.
 
@BalarkaSen gross
 
8:51 PM
If you take the sphere, and partition it into two open hemispheres, two half-equators (without the endpoints), and the two remaining points,
and quotient it by the partition, you get something equivalent in some way to the sphere. I think the phrase is "weakly homotopy equivalent"? Not sure
 
That is correct
There is a map between the spaces which are isomorphism in the homotopy groups
 
"which are isomorphism in ..."? Oy.
 
Hm I wonder how the Hopf map looks like in an finite topological space description
 
And if you take the inverse map of that partition in the Hopf map then you get the nice picture in the three sphere with the torus thing
 
I think I worked with a scheme that has the topology from the question before. It's what you get when glue two copies of the Sirpinski space (e.g. the Spec of a DVR) together along their generic point. I used that as a counterexample to something, but I can't remember for what
 
8:52 PM
which I mentioned a while ago
Uh, sniped I guess?
 
Great minds think alike
Greater minds think faster
 
:fire: :boom:
 
But I did mention that picture to you a while ago
 
Yes, you did :)
 
8:53 PM
Yeah, this reminds me of the exam question I tried to write for my take-home topology final a few years ago -- a leaf space of a foliation where, I thought, there would be a dense point.
 
It was a cool picture
@TedShifrin Is that Reeb
Reeb's leaf space is just R mod ~ where ~ is defined as x ~ -x if x > 0 I believe
 
I think I gave you the question. I was doing things like $[-1,1]\times\Bbb R$ with the leaves the two vertical lines at the end and the vertical translates of $y=\tan(\pi x/2)$.
 
@Akiva I think someone should write down the combinatorial description of the Hopf map
@TedShifrin That's the one-dimensional Reeb foliation on the strip, yeah
 
@BalarkaSen What do you mean?
 
Why do we need for the definition of measures on topological space the locally compactness?
 
8:58 PM
@AkivaWeinberger Like, triangulate S^3 and S^2 reasonably so that the Hopf map becomes simplicial. Then write it down at the level of corresponding finite topological spaces given by squishing the interior of the simplices.
It'd be a map between finite spaces, which would be kinda cool
 
Well, we already know how to triangulate $S^2$
 
How would you see linking in the finite set-up, Balarka?
 
or partition it, at least, or something
 
@TedShifrin Good question.
 
@BalarkaSen oh, a follow up to something I mentioned a few days ago
 
8:59 PM
and we already have a cool partition of $S^3$ (the inverse map of the partition of $S^2$)
 
@Akiva The challenge is to find a small triangulation of S^3 and S^2 both so that Hopf becomes simplicial
 
You'd need to see it discretely as a degree of a product map, presumably.
 
Here's a suggestive abstract from a paper from 1981:
 
@AkivaWeinberger That's not really a triangulation of S^3.
 
I guess we'd need to draw more lines to make it work
 
9:00 PM
You have to subdivide it further
 
"When translational symmetry is broken in the ground state, the homotopy theory of defects of ordered media has to be supplemented with integrability conditions, coming from the theory of foliations.
These show how some homotopy classes split into several distinct defects, while other homotopy classes do not occur physically. This framework can also be used in order to discuss defects of gauge fields, where in a first approximation classifying spaces play the role of the manifolds of internal states. "
 
Sniped again
(me this time)
 
Draw more "hyperlines"
@Semiclassical I can't tell. Is this physics?
Crystal math
 
Source: "Some Aspects of the Theory of Defects of Ordered Media
and Gauge Fields Related to Foliations", Poenaru 1981
well, it's from the journal "Communications in Mathematical Physics"
so...both?
 
9:02 PM
I think it'd be kinda trolly and fun. You have this map {null, a, b, c, {a, b}, blah blah } --> {more bullshit} given by f(a) = x y z, this is the Hopf map
Totally symbolic description
@Semiclassical I don't really know the math or physics behind this but the familiar names from topology makes me happy
:)
 
I figured
 
As finite topological spaces are equivalent to finite preordered sets, I wonder if you can see the homotopy stuff on the level of preorders
 
"Trolly and fun"?
 
alas, the copy i found is on springer and so probably behind a paywall
Sure, everyone has fun on trolleys.
 
@MatheinBoulomenos Interesting.
 
9:04 PM
@MatheinBoulomenos I'm sure you can
 
I think it's time we all learn some finite homotopy theory
 
I had a PDF talking about that at one point but I couldn't really follow
@BalarkaSen I'm surprised just to not hear you curse the name tbh
 
hahahah
Let me have a quick look at what May does in his book
 
Balarka's coming around to the good side
 
I am not reading Concise. Bullshit book
May's other stuff are good
 
9:09 PM
Balarka definitely has trouble with subject-verb agreements today :P
 
They be good tho
:P
 
I can't speak English
 
Nor write (type), apparently. :)
 
No Balarka, you're* English is grammarful.
Okay that hurt to type
I'm going back to normal now
 
"ow"
normal indeed
 
9:10 PM
@TedShifrin I disagrees
 
Shh
If this keeps up Ted's gonna have to tax us for our sins
 
Did you ever settle that dog walk question last night, DogAteMy? Oh, thanks for helping the fellow out.
 
Y'know, I am the ninth letter of the alphabet.
 
I prefer English without boundaries
stream of conciousness
 
ah, smbc is good as ever: smbc-comics.com/comic/scalars
 
9:11 PM
@TedShifrin Yeah. So he wasn't a 9th grader, it's just that someone who teaches the 9th grade gave him the problem.
 
(the alt text is great)
 
And the answer is, the dogs end up in the center but the total distance is infinite.
 
Aha ... You saw my comment re comparison with infinite products?
 
Which I guess means, more accurately, the dogs end up as close to the center as possible but never get there.
@TedShifrin I did, and I was confused
 
Oh, very cool. This is a discrete pursuit problem. There are some classic questions in dynamical systems like this.
 
9:12 PM
Darn my pun went unnoticed
"Tax us for our sins"? Syntax? Nothing?
 
Too many steps @Daminark
 
Lel
 
But yeah, scalars are vectors. In a 1D vector space. @Semiclassical
 
well yes
Mostly I just like the phrase "Time is just distance through death-space."
 
They've got magnitude, they've got direction. Right for positive, left for negative.
@Semiclassical Ya
 
9:14 PM
Ugh May's book still looks dry
 
Put it through the wash again
 
@Balarka spill some water
Oh my God
 
get sniped
 
get sniped on
 
The thing about vectors having "magnitude and direction" is that the zero vector doesn't really have a direction
 
9:15 PM
gettttttt sniped on
 
lolyes
 
I never think about vectors in terms of magnitude and direction honestly
 
You think about them as elements of a module over a field
We get it
 
it's hard to avoid thinking like that if you're using vectors in physics
 
I usually just say that a vector is a list of numbers
 
9:15 PM
It's just another way of saying $\Bbb R^n\setminus\{0\}\simeq S^{n-1}\times\Bbb R$ I guess
 
@Daminark triggered
 
@Daminark That's how it works in Comp Sci
 
Lmao
 
@BalarkaSen What's the relation between the Hopf map and CP2 again?
Would triangulating CP2 give us the triangulation of the Hopf map that you want?
 
If you glue a 4-disk to S^2 by the Hopf map, it's CP^2
 
9:17 PM
Ah, right
$D^4$ with the boundary Hopf'd
 
@Mathein I mean it's probably the best way to talk about it to high schoolers or first years
 
Is $\Bbb{R}$ with the standard topology completely normal?
 
Well, a simplicial Hopf map would give a triangulation of CP^2 but I don't see how it goes the other direction
 
Speaking of freshmen
Do alligators live in freshmen or saltmen
 
any metrizable space is completely normal @user193319
 
9:19 PM
(If you have a simplicial attachment of 4-disk to S^2 then extend the triangulation of S^3 under which you have the Hopf map as simplicial by coning off to a triangulation of D^4 then attaching that bikh)
 
@MatheinBoulomenos Really? I know any metric space is normal, but I didn't realize they were also completely normal. Thanks!
 
Any metric space is just fine, thank you very much [slams door]
 
@Akiva
 
Thark
 
One hundred percent unremarkable
 
9:20 PM
@user193319 so you know a metric space is normal, but if you pass to a subspace you can take the induced metric
So any subspace of a metric space is metric, and thus normal
So metric spaces are completely normal
 
So I looked up "completely normal" on Google hoping to find a definition, but I forgot to include the word "mathematics" in the search and I got this
> Comedy. Awkward romantic Greg falls in love from afar when he crosses paths with the beautiful but reclusive Gwen on the New York subway, little does he know she is suffering from multiple personality disorder. Touching hilarity ensues.
 
Oh that happened to me once with group presentations
 
Heh lol
 
"p-adics are weird", "I don't know what you mean, they're completely normal."
5
 
Good joke
 
9:23 PM
So normal is "every two disjoint closed sets of X have disjoint open neighborhoods" and completely normal is "every subspace of X with subspace topology is a normal space"
 
Yeh
 
I have stopped caring about the various axioms
 
What's normal but not completely normal?
That sounds like the setup to a joke but it isn't
 
Who cares?
 
Everyone
(Re Akvia, not Balarka)
 
9:29 PM
So apparently the "Tychonoff plank", which is $\{0,1,\dots,\omega\}\times\{0,1,\dots,\omega_1\}$
If you delete $(\omega,\omega_1)$ it's no longer normal
@Semiclassical Why is SMBC's image of God apparently a floating sundial
 
B/c why not
 
Fair 'nuff
I don't really expect a better answer
 
If we had an example of a Tychonoff which is not normal, then this would also give rise to a a normal, not completely normal space, because for Tychonoff spaces, the map into its Stone-Cech compactification is an embedding, and the Stone-Cech compactification is compact Hausdorff, so it's normal
I can't think of a Tychonoff not-normal space though
 
@Akiva thanks
 
9:42 PM
Stone-Cech compactification? More like Stone-Age compactification
HAHAHA..... heh heh.... no? ok
 
Queens of the Stone Cech
 
3
Q: What is actually the standard definition for Radon measure?

RubertosI see that there are various definitions for Radon measure and they are NOT equivalent, but they are equivalent on locally compact Hausdorff spaces. I think this is the reason why Radon measure has several different definitions, but I'm curious what is the standard one. On locally compact Hausdor...

In the answer to this one, why is the radon-measure only defined for Hausdorff spaces?
I mean the definition would also make sense if the space is not hausdorff isnt it
 
@quallenjäger the answer says that it's possible to extend this to non-Hausdorff spaces, but that nobody does it, because it's not useful and not well-behaved
 
But technically speaking, the definition doesn't really rely on the hausdorff property?
Radon measures are only defined for Hausdorff spaces. This is because of both the local finiteness condition as well as the inner regularity condition. Just to make sure we are on the same page:
this is the sentence I don't understand
 
9:59 PM
yeah, that's imprecise
 

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