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12:03 PM
Okay so let $q : X_n \sqcup_{\alpha}e_{\alpha}^k \to X_n \sqcup_{\alpha}e_{\alpha}^k / \sim$ be defined by $q(x) = [x]$ ($q$ is the canonical map sending each $x$ to its equivalence class in the quotient space)
Then the open sets of the quotient space are those subsets $U$ such that $q^{-1}[U]$ is open in each $e_{\alpha}^k$ and open in $X_n$
 
Right.
 
Ahh I think I see where you're getting at
 
:) I think the rest is thrashing out the rigorous terminologies. Notice that "$q^{-1}(U)$ is open in $X_n$" means $q^{-1}(U) \cap X_n$ is open in $X_n$. Now, we understand the map $q$: it sends $q(x) = x$ if $x \in X_n$ and $q(x) = \Phi_\alpha(x)$ if $x \in e_\alpha^k$ where $\Phi_\alpha$ is the characteristic map corresponding to that cell.
So, uh, $q^{-1}(U) \cap X_n$ should be the same as $U \cap X_n$ by definition of $q$.
It's just inclusion $X_n \subset X$ on the $X_n$ factor of the disjoint union of the spaces.
So for a fixed $n$, "$U \subseteq X$ is open iff $U \cap X_n$ is open in $X_n$" is nothing other than a reparsing of the definition of quotient topology: "$U$ is open iff $q^{-1}(U)$ is open". Do this for all $n$, and you're done.
 
@BalarkaSen sequential limits are defined for compact spaces right?
 
Uh? No it's defined for Hausdorff spaces in general.
 
12:15 PM
oops, what did I say
I mean sequential continuity
 
@LeakyNun You need filters/nets for general topological spaces I think
 
wait, topology doesn't even have pointwise continuity.
 
Thanks, Balarka! I'm only having some slight trouble understanding why $q(x) =X$ if $x \in X^n$, and why $q(x) = \Phi_{\alpha}(x)$ is $x \in e_{\alpha}^k$, I think it's because of your definition of $\sim$, could you define it slightly more rigorously if possible?
 
amirite?
 
@LeakyNun Yeah there are stuff about when continuity is equivalent to sequential continuity. I forget but there's a class of spaces where it's true.
Idk what "topology doesn't even have pointwise continuity" means
 
12:18 PM
@BalarkaSen First countable
 
hello
 
@Alessandro Is that enough?
 
@BalarkaSen is pointwise continuity a thing in topology?
 
@Leaky Er, sure?
 
@BalarkaSen how?
 
12:19 PM
Think about it. Sequences make sense, convergence make sense as long as you're Hausdorff...
You can just write down the Euclidean definition word for word
 
@BalarkaSen yes, I think that's even too much, sequential spaces or something
 
@Alessandro Cute!
 
Convergence of sequences makes sense even in a non Hausdorff context but limits are not necessarily unique and it's mostly a mess :P
 
Given a real polynomial P and plugging in the (complex) points of a circle. Is im(P) again a circle?
 
yeah that's what i meant
 
12:21 PM
You'll want to replace sequences by nets eventually
 
@Imago homeomorphic to a circle, or really a circle?
 
I use nets for fishing and filters for taps.
 
@Perturbative Ah, yes, so let's try to understand one skeleton up. $X_{n+1}$ is obtained from $X_n$ by attaching $(n+1)$-cells $e_\alpha$ on $X_n$; $X_{n+1} = X_n \bigcup_\alpha e_\alpha/\sim$ where $\sim$ is defined by $x \sim y$ iff $x \in e_\alpha$ and $y \in X_n$, $\varphi_\alpha(x) = y$, $\varphi_\alpha$ being the attaching map of some cell $e_\alpha$.
 
@LeakyNun, I look at the function $$g_r(s) = \frac{f(re^{2\pi is})/f(r)}{|f(re^{2\pi is})/f(r)|}$$ with f being the said polynominal. And $$ s \in S^1 $$
I am trying to figure out what $g_r(s)$ looks like and what happens, if I let r vary.
 
12:29 PM
If $q : X_n \bigsqcup_\alpha e_\alpha/\sim \to X_n$ is the quotient map corresponding to quotienting by this equivalence relation, then notice that $q(\text{int} \, e_\alpha) \subset X_{n+1}$ are the open $(n+1)$-cells in $X_{n+1}$, so $q$ restricted to $e_\alpha$ is exactly the characteristic map $\Phi_\alpha : D^{n+1} \to X_{n+1}$ of $e_\alpha$. On the other hand since $x \sim y$ for $x, y \in X_n$ iff $x = y$, $q|_{X_n} : X_n \to X_{n+1}$ is merely the inclusion map $X_n \subset X_{n+1}$.
That's really all what I meant.
 
hi chat
 
Hi @mago
Glad to see there's some math happening in the chat after a long long long long time :P
 
This chat is part of the internet, it's doomed to become memes and drama
2
 
memes are healthy for you, just like vegetables
 
drama however...
and we've been seeing more of the latter than memes lately
 
12:41 PM
cancers of the worst kind
yeah well that's because @daminark and i moved the memestash to discord
 
I noticed
 
Thanks Balarka! :)
I'll be back later in a few hours
Cheers everyone!
 
1:05 PM
Hello @MatsGranvik!
 
Have you made any progress on RH?
 
1:25 PM
Guys I'm not sure if this is the right place for this but, is there something like a function maker function which, where we can put multiple input(x) and output(x) for the result of a function that takes the given input to the given output?
Even writing this made me tired.
 
@IşıkKaplan context?
 
hello there
I have a problem about nodes and shortest path, but it involves different distances between nodes
And it seems BFS for example only works with nodes with distance "1"
 
I'm planning to try to create a function for bisectors in triangles, I'm know there are better ways such as using other formulas but I just wanted learn if there is such a way that I just explained.
 
What did I miss.
@Jasper I like your new pic dood
@IşıkKaplan wat
 
@Dodsy Do you plan to be a mathematician in future?
 
1:37 PM
Yeah! Do you?
 
Well, right now, I just hope that I will be well soon. But yeah, I still hope to do math.
I think the only time I ever enjoyed some alcohol was some red wine that was very fruity and sweet.
 
But let me explain a little. So when I was in grade 9 I took this AP art class and this guy I knew was in the class. We had another friend we would always hang out with and one day we were out on the quad and my non art friend was looking at some art online and said "woah look at that" and my art friend said "by the time we're in grade 12, we'll be able to do that!" so I said "not necessarily, it takes a lot of hard work and natural born talent to get that good at art."
and I think that applies to mathematics too.
 
@Dodsy You know how a functions takes an input and gives an output. I have the inputs and outputs and I'm looking for a way other than the trial-error way.
 
@Dodsy That's a lovely story.
 
haha thank you.
 
1:41 PM
@IşıkKaplan Nope, I don't think so. You can't guarantee that every function has a nice form.
 
@IşıkKaplan explain the bisector triangle thing. Is it a horizontal bisector?
 
@IşıkKaplan Now to add on, formally, a function is just a set of ordered pairs, where the pairs are simply those of the input and output.
 
I really hope you do get well Jasper.
 
Thanks. =D
@IşıkKaplan What kind of bisector? Angular bisector bisecting the angle, or perpendicular bisector bisecting the line?
 
@Jasper Oh since I've started learning programming I think functions as thing that you put arguments in to return something. I didn't think of it as input output pairs.
Angular
Let me show you with a picture what I'm trying to figure out
 
1:46 PM
Angular bisector.
okay
 
Subtracting the argument in the zeta zero spectum, with the third zeta zero, blacks out the spike at the third zeta zero in the spectrum.
 
pretty
 
@MatsGranvik I hope you make some progress soon! Nice graphs.
 
So here it is. imgur.com/3aOQYaj in this example the BAC angle is 60
Double of the BDC
What would the angle be if it was something like imgur.com/xcnqWeJ
 
@IşıkKaplan What other info is there other than the two pairs of equal angles indicated?
 
2:00 PM
In the original question AB is 4 and AC is 5 and asks for area of ABC
 
hey there.
 
If I'm still not making any sense, I'm trying to figure a way to find this. imgur.com/a/LkCRP
 
2:26 PM
@LucasHenrique bom dia
 
2:40 PM
hiya
 
 
2 hours later…
4:18 PM
Let $H=\Bbb R/\Bbb Q$ be a Hamel basis
What is the cardinality of $GL(|H|,\Bbb Q)$?
 
does mathjax work here?
 
@GeorgeCoote yes, as long as you follow the link in the description to activate it
 
ah, thank you
 
hello, i am trying to prove that the roots of minimal polynomial of a linear operator T is the same as characteristic roots of T on a finite dimensional vector space V. i was able to prove the converse, for the other part, i let p(x)=a0 +a1 x +a2 x^2+...+am x^m be the minimal polynomial of T and c be a root of p(x). Then p(c)=0 also p(T)=0. let v $\ne 0$ be a vector in V, then i calculated p(T)v-p(c)v = a1 (T(v)-cv) + a2 (T^2(v)-c^2v)+...+am (T^m(v)-c^mv)=0.
in the hope of proving T(v)=cv. from here, is it possible to conclude that T(v)=cv?
 
Hi, @TedShifrin
 
4:32 PM
Hi Leaky
 
@TedShifrin have you ever wondered...
 
No.
2
 
what $\operatorname{Aut}(\langle \Bbb R,+ \rangle)$ is isomorphic to?
 
Without some topological restrictions, it's pretty horrible.
 
Well we've worked out that it's $GL(|H|,\Bbb Q)$ where $H$ is a hamel basis
 
4:34 PM
As I said, horrible.
 
Right. I like to play with infinities.
 
I don't.
 
hello, can u help me with the above problem?
 
@NV: What precisely is your question (briefly)?
 
@NV-US let $A=T-cI_n$, where $n$ is the dimension of the $V$
You have proved that $p(A)\vec v = 0$ for every $\vec v \in V$, right?
 
4:36 PM
minimal polynomial of T and characteristic polynomial of T has same roots @TedShifrin
yes @LeakyNun
 
have you?
lol no you haven't. disregard what I said.
 
yes i didn't
XD
 
Hey everyone!
 
so, what i did, can it help in proving that?
 
Heya @TedShifrin :)
 
4:38 PM
so every eigenvalue must be a root of the minimal polynomial.
Hi @Perturbative.
 
yes @TedShifrin
 
Then what's to show?
 
hi chat
 
i know that i can say that characteristic polynomial annihilates T, and p is the least degree, monic, such polynomial and p is the generator of the annihilating set, so every root of p is a root of char. poly. of T
but what i did above, can i conclude that T(v)=cv, by "something"
i need to show that T(v)=cv @TedShifrin
 
So this has nothing to do with minimal polynomials. You're asking why a root of the characteristic polynomial is an eigenvalue — i.e., that there's a corresponding eigenvector?
 
4:41 PM
@NV-US you can't have T(v)=cv for all v generally
 
he means for some $v$ and some $c$ :)
 
He was trying to prove it for all v
13 mins ago, by NV-US
hello, i am trying to prove that the roots of minimal polynomial of a linear operator T is the same as characteristic roots of T on a finite dimensional vector space V. i was able to prove the converse, for the other part, i let p(x)=a0 +a1 x +a2 x^2+...+am x^m be the minimal polynomial of T and c be a root of p(x). Then p(c)=0 also p(T)=0. let v $\ne 0$ be a vector in V, then i calculated p(T)v-p(c)v = a1 (T(v)-cv) + a2 (T^2(v)-c^2v)+...+am (T^m(v)-c^mv)=0.
 
Well, I hope not.
 
"let v $\ne 0$ be a vector in V"
 
no not all, some
 
4:43 PM
missing quantifier :P
 
So the point is that $\det A = 0 \iff A$ is singular, i.e., has nontrivial kernel.
 
some v, not zero, such that T(v)=cv, so i can conclude that c is a char. value of T
 
you said you calculated that
I don't see how you can calculate that "for some v" if you haven't specified v
 
yes, @TedShifrin
 
so if $\lambda$ is a root of $p$, this means that $\det(T-\lambda I) = 0$, so $T-\lambda I$ has a nontrivial kernel. That gives you eigenvectors.
 
4:43 PM
If $X$ is a CW-Comples, is a subcomplex of $Y$ of $X$ a subspace $Y \subseteq X$ that is a union (or disjoint union?) of cells of $X$, such that if $Y$ contains a cell, it also contains its closure
 
I believe so, yes, @Perturbative, but you should check with @Balarka.
 
Okay I will
 
i have not asked my question properly i think, i'll figure it out myself. ty.
 
Communication is important for mathematics.
 
Ask your question properly.
@TedShifrin can I ask you a question regarding direct sum/product of vector spaces?
 
4:47 PM
its ok. i have another proof, ty.
 
You do need Cayley-Hamilton or some such thing to deduce that the minimal polynomial divides the characteristic polynomial, I guess.
 
can i not say that minimal polynomial is a generator of the annihilating set?
 
Like what, Leaky?
 
@TedShifrin
 
yes, @NV, that's the definition (well, ideal, yes).
And the characteristic polynomial is in that ideal because of Cayley-Hamilton.
 
4:48 PM
@TedShifrin Is $\displaystyle \prod_{n \in \kappa} \Bbb Q$ isomorphic to $\displaystyle \bigoplus_{n \in 2^\kappa} \Bbb Q$ whenever $\kappa$ is infinite, assuming choice?
 
I doubt it.
 
i.e. is $2^\kappa$ the dimension of $\displaystyle \prod_{n \in \kappa} \Bbb Q$?
 
PIE
@LeakyNun PIE!
 
lol
 
i finnaly got it!
 
4:51 PM
I don't see that the group laws work out when you have infinitely many nonzero entries. But this stuff makes my head hurt.
 
<-- not crazy
 
Faust, of course you're crazy.
 
@TedShifrin well, I did say vector space
but alright, you can think of them as groups.
 
lol
 
I meant addition structure — irrelevant.
 
4:52 PM
@TedShifrin you're right.
As $\Bbb Q$-vector spaces there is no difference.
The zero/identity is the same in a direct sum and a direct product: just the zeroes everywhere (it has finite support!)
 
Suppose you have $\kappa = \Bbb N$ and one element has entries in all the odd slots and the other has entries in all the even slots. How do you get the addition of those two vectors to work out?
 
@TedShifrin then the sum has entries in all slots?
 
right
 
so?
 
but we end up adding totally different coordinates in the infinite product.
I dunno. Maybe it's right. I don't like thinking about this.
 
4:55 PM
well both don't have finite support to begin with
 
I don't see how it works to have one basis element for each subset of $\kappa$. How would you do the vectors $(1,0,1,0,1,0,\dots)$ and $(1,0,2,0,3,0,\dots)$ in that direct product?
 
@TedShifrin oh, they're linearly independent
 
But you only have one coordinate for each subset of $\kappa$.
 
I'm not necessarily saying that $2^\kappa$ is the basis of the direct product
 
Huh?
 
4:58 PM
just that the basis has the same cardinality as $2^\kappa$
10 mins ago, by Leaky Nun
@TedShifrin Is $\displaystyle \prod_{n \in \kappa} \Bbb Q$ isomorphic to $\displaystyle \bigoplus_{n \in 2^\kappa} \Bbb Q$ whenever $\kappa$ is infinite, assuming choice?
 
It seems like you need uncountably many basis elements for each (infinite) subset.
 
it can still be same as $2^\kappa$
 
Does that work when $\kappa=\Bbb N$?
 

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