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5:00 PM
I do believe that the dimension of $\displaystyle \prod_{n \in \Bbb N} \Bbb Q$ is $\mathfrak c$.
 
I don't know.
 
Here is a proof that $\displaystyle \dim \prod_{n \in \Bbb N} \Bbb Q = |\Bbb Q^\Bbb N| = \mathfrak c$
 
Anyhow ... this stuff isn't for me.
 
@TedShifrin let's change the topic
 
I already have.
 
5:08 PM
so for real functions, sequential continuity is equivalent to epsilon-delta continuity for a specific point
what is astonishing is that choice is required
 
For most people, countable choice isn't choice.
 
and it is consistent to the negation of choice that there is a function sequentially continuous at certain point but not epsilon-delta continuous
@TedShifrin you're right
 
But if you're going to obsess over set theory, please do leave me out of it. It really does not interest me.
 
alright
@TedShifrin if you don't mind: what is the origin of your surname?
 
Russia.
 
5:12 PM
hmm, Wiki says that the name has Yiddish origin
so do you have Russian ancestry?
 
Yiddish is a language, not a country. That is not accurate.
Weird.
Most people speak of a country of origin for their relatives, not a language.
 
a name can originate from a language I suppose
 
Well, an English speaker may have come from England, Ireland, Australia, South Africa ... and lots of other places. I don't like it.
Anyhow, my grandparents emigrated from Russia.
 
I can confirm, I'm an English speaker from South Africa
 
@TedShifrin I see
 
5:16 PM
We like you anyhow, @Perturbative.
 
@TedShifrin Did you watch the US Open? ;)
 
Lots of it, but not all.
 
Lol, only mentioned it because Kevin Anderson was in the final
 
Hey there everyone!
 
Yo! @Daminark
 
5:18 PM
Yup. I remember his college tennis days in the US. Nice guy, but totally outclassed by Rafa.
hi Demonark
 
How's it going?
 
Doing ok.
 
When exactly do you have your aops class?
And @Perturbative how's it going on your side too?
 
Sunday mornings, Demonark.
Reviewing functions and graphs tomorrow. I'll see how they do with thinking that $f\circ g=\text{Id}$ means that $f$ and $g$ are inverse functions.
 
@Daminark It's going aight over here, currently on a one week mid-semester holiday so that's a plus
 
5:22 PM
@TedShifrin hmm, doesn't it?
 
Mid semester? Good lord
 
You tell me, Leaky.
 
well, at least $g$ is the right inverse of $f$
 
Careful about saying "the" right inverse, you may have many :P
 
right
 
5:23 PM
Most high school and college calculus students think the answer is yes.
 
hi chat
 
Yo @Eric
 
@Daminark Uni's in South Africa are weird
 
@TedShifrin most high school students also think that matrices are just a block of numbers
 
Nifty.
 
5:23 PM
Wassup @EricSilva
 
Well, that isn't wrong.
hi Eric
 
@Leaky that's what i think a matrix is
 
emphasis on just
 
@LeakyNun A matrix is a rectangular array of entries, it's true.
 
5:24 PM
well, then most high school students think that $\dfrac1{\sin x} = \csc x$, lol
 
That also is correct.
 
or that "function" only means "real function"
 
I mean, it turns out that the construction of a matrix makes it useful for linear algebra, but the definition of a matrix is precisely that
 
@LeakyNun Isn't that correct?
 
Well that's just context-dependent then
Well, I think Leaky in the csc example is asking to be careful about zeroes, yeah?
 
5:25 PM
@Daminark right
 
No, Leaky is wrong. They have precisely the same domains.
 
What is there to be careful about?
cosecant is defined as 1 over sine.
 
Leaky has his brain addled by all this uncountable set theory.
 
oops!
$\dfrac1{\tan x}=\cot x$.
 
5:26 PM
Maybe you are thinking about cot and 1/tan
Now that one is different.
 
@TedShifrin :c
 
rolls 7 2/3 eyes
 
Wait how is cot defined then?
 
cos/sin is not exactly the same as 1/tan
 
There the domains are not matching, Demonark, unless you define $0=1/\infty$.
 
5:29 PM
well, high school students think that domain isn't something you define before the function
 
Oh so in the case of $csc(x)$ we're just letting it be $\infty$? I guess if we're gonna do one, we do the other
:P jk
 
Take x to be half pi.
Then cos x / sin x is 0, but 1 / tan x is undefined.
So you can see that the former has more points than the latter.
 
Does "basis" have to be linearly independent?
 
Yes.
 
Yup
Sniped again...
 
5:31 PM
A basis is a linearly independent set that spans the space.
 
Is this my fate?
 
It's better than you deserve, Demonark.
 
Does "basis" in topology need to be minimal?
 
NO.
 
Nope
 
5:32 PM
no lol
 
lol, Demonark
must there be a minimal basis?
 
I give up
 
come on
 
@Leaky I know that's true for Alexandroff $T_0$ spaces
 
finally you aren't sniped :)
 
5:33 PM
Can you give me a minimal basis for the usual topology on $\Bbb R$?
 
@TedShifrin I can't.
 
Put your set theory to use and prove it.
 
why would you is the question
 
I don't think that's a bad question — trying to be maximally efficient.
 
idk i dont like point set issues
 
5:34 PM
Actually Alexandroff spaces in general I think
 
And I don't like ordinal/cardinal/choice issues.
 
in the group $S_n $ prove that $H = \{ \sigma \in S_n | \sigma (n) =n \} $ is isomorphic to $S_{n-1} $ i know tis is incredibly obvious but im having trouble stating the isomorphism
 
Between the two of us, Eric, Leaky should find another room!
 
Define $U_x$ to be the intersection of open sets containing $x$
 
I like tissues.
 
5:35 PM
@Ted i dont like those either lol
 
@Faust: Maybe go the other way?
 
hmmm
 
SSShhh, Leaky. Let him figure it out.
 
Am I the only person who cannot see Leaky's picture?
 
lol
 
5:36 PM
We can't answer that, @Jasper.
 
Why would one be interested in a minimal basis for the usual topology on $\mathbb{R}$ but?
 
All I see is the word Leaky Nun, no picture.
 
As I said, to be maximally efficient, @Perturbative.
Reboot, Jasper.
 
I think it is my browser settings.
 
Well, make us all invisible, then, Jasper.
 
5:37 PM
i usually don't like some of these maximal efficiency questions in topology precisely because it sometimes makes me think about set theory lol
 
His picture is some link from somewhere else, not an uploaded one.
 
Where's the set theory love?
 
But I can see everyone else's picture, lol.
 
@Daminark I had a friend in high school (who is now a set theory grad student) who made me read Halmos's book and straight up it almost made me give up math lol
 
Well, Eric, if we made Demonark work the exercises in my multivariable math book, he would give up math.
 
5:39 PM
@EricSilva Naive Set Theory? I tried to read it so many times, always ended up getting bored
 
@Ted true enough, different strokes for different folks
 
@EricSilva I think I read that little book long ago, nicely written but I got confused about the cardinal and ordinal arithmetic part.
 
Only naive people study naive set theory.
 
$$\begin{align}\phi(\sigma)\colon\{1,\ldots,n-1\}&\to\{1,\ldots,n-1\}\\x&\mapsto \sigma(x)\end{align} $$ ?
 
Halmos's book is poorly named though lol
 
5:40 PM
A friend of mine did his REU paper out of Halmos. He liked it at the time but I think he's much more into descriptive set theory now
 
@Perturbative yup, i thought it was boring
 
I've been meaning to read Halmos but I never got around to it
 
Halmos himself said it is axiomatic set theory from a naive viewpoint @eric
 
So you didn't go the other way, Faust. OK, that's fine. And say why it's well-defined.
 
5:40 PM
Heya @AlessandroCodenotti
 
Hi @Alessandro. Run over anyone lately?
 
Yo @Alessandro!
 
Hi @Jasper
 
Not yet, but I'm trying
 
one last question
 
5:41 PM
@Jasper sure but the point is that the way mathematicians use the term "naive set theory" and the way Halmos used it don't agree
 
Good to hear, Alessandro :)
 
@EricSilva I like that phrase, I'm gonna hijack it :P
 
@user91500 Hi, I remember you! You are the number theorist from Deutschland! =D
 
@Daminark How's Atiyah-Macdonald going?
 
I sure wish people would have actual names ... I can't tell one user from another.
 
5:42 PM
That plan never materialized
 
@Daminark I think descriptive set theory is actually way more interesting. i mean, analytic issues come up. i still don't like it as much as i like other stuff though.
 
I'll start taking driving lessons again next week. The new semester will also begin on Monday
 
prove that for any $ \sigma_{1}, \sigma_{2} \in S_n$ their left cosets $\sigma_{1} H$ and $\sigma_{2}H $ are equal iff $\sigma_{1}(n) = \sigma_{2} (n)$ what exactly is this saying?
 
I hope it's not like falling off a bicycle, Alessandro :P
Fix that, Faust.
 
lol
 
5:43 PM
The last 3 weeks of summer for me have basically been my thinking about a subject for a day or 2 and then derp
 
What's $H$?
 
@TedShifrin Isn't $\{(-\infty,r) \mid r \in \Bbb Q\} \cup \{(r,\infty) \mid r \in \Bbb Q\}$ a minimal basis?
 
crazy how lots of parts of the US don't require driving lessons lol
 
@AlessandroCodenotti I have a license, but when my parents pick me up from uni I always fall asleep on the way home, so they're probably not gonna let me drive anytime soon again
 
H is the subgroup
 
5:43 PM
Not a basis at all, @Leaky.
 
one sec ill type it back out
 
@Daminark Derp is love, derp is life
 
The one of elements fixing $n$?
 
@TedShifrin why not?
 
Though I've got reason to be more focused on the finite topology stuff so yeah, that's probably gonna be my main thing now
 
5:44 PM
Figure it out, Leaky.
 
$H= \{ \sigma \in S_n | \sigma (n) =n \}$
 
Did you see my message on discord? @Dami
 
Right, @Faust. I said that a few lines ago.
 
Yeah, go and check, I responded
Or I mean, I'll tell you here
We're gonna use Chang: Model Theory
 
@Daminark the time Peter May subbed in for my point set topology lecturer in my first year of college he wouldn't stop talking about finite topological spaces
 
5:45 PM
@Faust: So start with the easy direction. Suppose $\sigma_1$ and $\sigma_2$ fix $n$. Why is it true?
 
Thanks, I'll look it up
 
he was meant to be telling us what limit points were and then never defined them lol
 
@TedShifrin oops, intersections
 
what did i miss
 
Lol that sounds like him
 
5:45 PM
well they are in H
 
Oh, Balarka. There was a question for you about CW subcomplexes.
 
and then he made up a false theorem about finite topological spaces lol
 
So then it's obvious that the cosets are the same, Faust.
 
He took forever to actually get to the bar construction
 
H is a cubgroup
 
5:46 PM
What was that theorem?
 
LOL cubgroup ...
 
idk something about separability
 
:\
 
I think I like cubgroups.
 
@TedShifrin I thought the condition is $\sigma_1(n)=\sigma_2(n)$
 
5:47 PM
Oh, I misread. Leaky's right
 
it was like a year and a half ago @Daminark, i do my best to not remember that class
 
im not really asking why they are the same i think i can show that im asking what this is saying
 
Lol @Eric, fair
 
Still, if $\sigma_j(n)$ agree, why are the cosets the same?
 
Now $\{(q,r) \mid q,r \in \Bbb Q\}$ is a basis
 
5:48 PM
@TedShifrin Ah, let me check
 
It's saying that the cosets (i.e., sets) $\sigma_1H$ and $\sigma_2H$ are identical iff $\sigma_j(n)$ agree.
 
cause H only moves the first n-1 values?
ok i think i understand now
 
But it isn't minimal because e.g. $(0,2) = (0,1.5) \cup (0.5,2)$ can be removed
 
@Perturbative Yes, that is precisely the definition of a subcomplex. Congrats.
 
Ohh yeah @BalarkaSen, in the definition of a subcomplex $Y$ of a CW-Complex $X$, is the subcomplex $Y$ defined to be the subspace that is a union of cells of $X$, or disjoint union of cells of $X$ (with the appropriate further conditions)
 
5:49 PM
Let $h_1\in H$. Then $\sigma_1 h_1\in \sigma_1 H$. So you want to find an element $h_2$ such that $\sigma_1 h_1 = \sigma_2 h_2$
 
@Perturbative It's a union, not a disjoint union.
 
Shhhh, Semiclassic.
 
oh no i know how to show two cosets are equal
 
pah, I'm just saying the definition.
 
@Daminark i think point set is like the most boring course i think ive ever taken at our school lol, but i guess it's important or w.e.
 
5:49 PM
@LeakyNun Hey, found any more typos in the exercises yet?
 
i just couldnt read the question
 
I used to have lots of fun teaching point set, Eric, and I think most of my students enjoyed it a lot.
 
@TobiasKildetoft not yet. I've only finished 6.2
 
@Ted So I learn sheaves next in Forster
 
Point-set is one of those things which I have unnecessary prejudice about.
 
5:50 PM
The reading course I did with the two guys a year ago ... they did the hardest problems in Munkres and we got to a lot on covering spaces and $\pi_1$. They also corrected me when I screwed up something on their exam about quotient topology.
Good, @Balarka. @EricSilva is supposed to be learning sheaf cohomology from Chern, too.
 
there's probably a level of...ugh, what's the word
Sour grapes, maybe?
 
all i have to do is show that $ \sigma_{1}^{-1} \sigma_2 \in H $ no?
 
@LeakyNun That's pretty good progress, assuming you have done them all up to that
 
i remember the screw-up; there's a good counterexample that constitutes a good counter-screw-up
 
OK, @Faust.
What screw-up, Balarka? I can give you a few.
 
5:51 PM
@Ted idk if it was my teacher or if i just don't like the stuff. I think it just makes me wish i were doing more analysis
 
Oh I was thinking of covering space of non-Hausdorff fellows thing
 
that being said i like covering spaces and fundamental group stuff a lot but i wouldnt call it point set :P
 
I did emphasize analytic stuff a bit more, Eric, when I taught it several times. I wrote a bunch of my own notes on Fourier series and $\ell^p$.
 
That's what you told me to counter-screw-up, and I did, I think
 
As in, I never was in a position to take point-set topology as either an undergrad math person or as a grad physics person. So therefore it's not something I want to do
 
5:52 PM
@TobiasKildetoft lol sure
 
@Balarka: Here's a paradox to ponder.
 
ok i mean i love that stuff, my teacher focused a lot on set theory pathological stuff which really just bored me to death
 
(Oh, I think you're remembering the stack of records thing?)
 
I still have no idea how to prove that $\Bbb R$ has no minimal basis
 
Yeah.
 
5:53 PM
I didn't do that much other than mentioning $S_\Omega$ a few times, Eric.
@Balarka: So think of the sheaf of continuous functions on a top. space.
 
we had like 10 problems on $S_{\Omega}$
 
A section is a continuous function, so its zero set is closed.
On the other hand, a section is a local homeomorphism, so its zero set is open.
Not surprisingly, Eric, my viewpoint was different.
 
Thanks @BalarkaSen
 
@TedShifrin What does it mean to say a section of a sheaf is a local homeomorphism?
 
5:56 PM
Sheaves are topological spaces, and the projection is a local homeomorphism. A section, being a local inverse, must therefore be that, too.
 
@TedShifrin This is the sort of paradox I can only appreciate at the logical level, i.e. I can't actually judge the validity of the statements
 
From $X$ to the espace etale or what
I guess
 
Right. We're working with a topological space, not the algebraic definition of presheaf/sheaf. Doesn't Forster start with topological spaces there?
 
@TedShifrin so it's clopen? :D
 
so every continuous function vanishes everywhere or nowhere. Cool.
(On a connected space.)
 
5:57 PM
@TedShifrin Probably it does, I haven't started reading yet :) I know the etale space, though, so go ahead.
 
I'm done.
 
Ah, haha.
 
@TedShifrin do you have any hints for the minimal basis question?
 
Was there a resolution there? I couldn't actually tell.
 
I presented it as a paradox, Semiclassic. Unless you believe that every continuous function on a connected space is either identically 0 or nowhere 0.
Nope, Leaky.
 
5:59 PM
ok.
 

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