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12:54 AM
@derobert I meant to say, if you could take a look and possibly comment, that would be helpful.
I looked at my old one. It wasn't very good at all. So I've been redoing it from stratch.
 
1:07 AM
Sorry, that should have read "scratch".
 
Hi there
I was hoping someone may be able to explain to me as to why the command find . -maxdepth 1 -regex '.*/[.a-zA-Z0-9]+' \( -type f -exec ls -l {} + \) -o \( -type d -exec ls -l {} + \) expand the the contents in a directory but find . -maxdepth 1 -regex '.*/[.a-zA-Z0-9]+' \( -type f -exec ls -l {} + \) -o \( -type d -exec ls -ld {} + \) does not since if I run the command ls -ld it only returns the current directory i.e. .
 
 
7 hours later…
7:46 AM
@Ryan The first command lists the current directory because . (dot) does not match the regular expression that you use. Since it does not match the regular expression, the "or"-branch after -o is executed for the current directory, which means find will execute ls -l .
If you want to execute one command for regular files and another for directories, and you want both files and directories to match your regular expression, you need an extra pair of parentheses.
find . -maxdepth 1 -regex '.*/[.a-zA-Z0-9]+'            \
        \(                                              \
                \( -type f -exec ls -l {} +  \) -o      \
                \( -type d -exec ls -dl {} + \)         \
        \)
Good morning, by the way
 
8:42 AM
Hello,
this intend to be humoristic (I'd rather say it first) :
why am i answering this unix.stackexchange.com/questions/562831/… while, as always @Kusalananda do a better job than me ?
 
8:56 AM
@Kusalananda Morning Kusalananda, The command find . -maxdepth 1 -regex '.*/[.a-zA-Z0-9]+' ( -type f -exec ls -l {} + ) -o ( -type d ! -name "." -exec ls -ld {} + ) lists only files and directories. It does not include the output for . (current directory).
The command find . -maxdepth 1 -regex '.*/[.a-zA-Z0-9]+' ( -type f -exec ls -l {} + ) -o ( -type d ! -name "." -exec ls -l {} + ) doesn't list it either however expands the files in the discovered directories. In contrast, ls -ld lists only the current directory i.e. .(dot)
 
 
3 hours later…
12:04 PM
Would any of you guys give me a hand on how to install deja-dup from source code, please?
the readme.md file isn't helpful this time...
 
Good morning.
@StephenKitt I was wondering which of the "microservice concerns" on the first column of the following table OpenShift addresses in Kubernetes ecosystem?
 
 
4 hours later…
4:44 PM
I would love to know what is there of "not helpful" in this answer:unix.stackexchange.com/a/562800/265604
In fact, the question and both answers got downvoted, Why? Someone doesn't like some questions about zsh? I would tag such attitude as "not helpful".
 
5:17 PM
@FaheemMitha I can try. Feel free to email it to me.
@Archemar Don't worry, someday it'll turn out that Kusalananda and StéphaneChazelas are busy, then they'll not be able to post a better answer than all of us. That's all we can hope for <g>
@santimirandarp There is a Makefile there, what happens when you type make?
@Isaac Or someone was in a bad mood, or had just stubbed their toe, or... Your answer has a positive score and is the accepted answer, so I'd suggest ignoring the downvote. It happens.
 
@derobert Ok, thank you.
 
@Isaac If you get a lot of downvotes on a single contribution (question/answer), or your contributions always get downvotes, then that's something to worry about. If you get comments suggesting how to improve something, that's something you should consider. A random isolated downvote, though, is best ignored. It's noise.
 
Oddly, I filed a Mercurial bug report which was not completely ignored.
Though it isn't actually fixed.
 
5:35 PM
I hope ignoring bugs isn't the norm... that'd not be a good sign :-(
(Although all too often it is, yeah for overworked maintainers)
 
@derobert Well, they ignore my bugs, most of the time. Apparently they aren't important enough.
Though there is plenty of activity. Just not on fixing my bugs.
They do have an absolutely horrendous bug policy in place, but I think I've mentioned that before here, and in other places.
I.e. if they bug isn't fixed after a while, it's auto-closed as resolved.
I've protested, of course. So have other people.
 
Do they auto-close it if you confirm it still happens on newer versions, or only bugs w/o activity?
I can understand auto-closing inactive. If you go through old bugs... so many of them turn out to be unreproducable.
Especially if they were never initially reproduced.
 
@derobert The autocloser closes if a certain number of days pass without activity, I think.
But often they are reproducible.
Bugs are often very easy to reproduce in a version control system.
Most of my bugs have repro recipes.
They still get ignored and auto-closed.
I tell other people to write repro recipes. Sometimes they do. Their bugs still get ignored too.
 
Apparently, every year or whatever, you've got to add a new comment "still happens in version (current version)" :-/
 
@derobert The timeout is much shorter than one year.
I think it's a terrible idea, and disrespectful to bug reporters.
Very demotivating. Though I still do report them.
But the Mercurial project is increasingly corporate and unconcerned about its users. It was different in the early days.
 
5:44 PM
I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry if this turns into writing a program that automatically re-runs your test cases against mercurial tip(?) and pings the bug...
 
I doubt the developers would agree with that, though.
@derobert I'm not sure what you mean.
 
Not sure what mercurial calls the latest version of the branch (is it tip? master? head?). Anyway, since you have test cases you can of course re-run them against the latest version. And see if the bug is still there, and then comment on the bug. In theory, you could automate that...
 
@derobert I don't know if Bugzills even has an email interface.
And I got your general idea, but I'm not sure what the laugh or cry thing was about.
 
(Honestly, now that I think of that, I'm somewhat surprised I can't think of a bug tracker which already has that feature — but I guess writing failing tests is beyond 90% of bug reporters.)
@FaheemMitha it has an optional one, but of course it has a web interface, and those can be automated
 
@derobert Web interfaces can be automated too. That's true.
 
5:49 PM
The laugh or cry is I'm unsure how to feel if you did that. I mean, on one hand, it'd be funny that they set the auto-close interval so low that you automated pinging the bug. On the other hand, it's such a pessimal state of existence that it'd be sad. Hence cry.
 
So, yesterday's bug. Or maybe today's bug. It's hard to keep track.
Hmm, apparently it was Thursday. How time flies.
 
Does someone confirming the bug stop the auto-close?
 
@derobert No.
Anyone can confirm the bug. Even the reporter.
Bugzilla is quite primitive and ugly. I bet it's written in Java.
 
Ah. That's a weird use of Bugzilla.
@FaheemMitha Perl, actually.
 
@derobert Oh.
 
5:52 PM
Its interface is old, Bugzilla originally dates back to the 90s.
 
Someone else pinged me on IRC to say his team has run into a similar problem, but had never found a repro recipe.
I also think bugs should be fixed, not ignored. I guess I'm just weird.
Mercurial used to use Roundup once. Which isn't perfect, but I liked it better.
And somewhat surprisingly (and ironically) still uses Mercurial for version control.
 
Bugzilla might still me using Mercurial as well. Not sure if they switched to git. Mozilla projects used to all use Mercurial.
 
@derobert What is?
 
BTW, if you check bugzilla.mozilla.org ... it doesn't have to look that ugly.
 
5:59 PM
@FaheemMitha Having the submitter confirm a bug. Normally they get filed as 'NEW', then someone familiar with the project handles them (e.g., mark as duplicate, reproduce it and mark as confirmed, etc.)
 
@derobert Oh. No, I meant the submitter can. The system doesn't stop her/him.
But typically people don't, of course.
Really, the norm in Mercurial seems to be to just ignore bug reports. And not just mine.
 
Ah. That's an option in bugzilla, there is a permission system, you need a permission bit to confirm bugs. It can be granted to everyone, though, sounds like that's how they set it up
 
I guess the important ones get fixed eventually. Or get washed away by the current of new developments.
Once, I remember, my bugs used to get fixed quickly. Once I think within 1/2 hour.
 
Maybe you'll have to start sending patches :-(
 
@derobert It's fairly hard to understand the system, unless one has spent a long time on it.
At least, that's my guess. I haven't tried.
A few months, I would guess.
That's not to say there is anything wrong with Mercurial's code. There isn't.
And I simply don't have that kind of time. Maybe once I did. Not these days.
 
6:03 PM
I know that feeling. Though I currently have more free time than I want :-/
Hopefully that's very temporary.
 
@derobert Don't you have a ton of misc errands piled up?
 
@FaheemMitha Oh yeah, plenty of them.
 
@derobert Ok, then. :-)
 
 
3 hours later…
8:39 PM
So, that's your answer: More downvotes, no explanation. That's a perfect example of bullying. Thanks guys, you are in a row, keep at it!.
 
9:05 PM
@Isaac I'm missing something; the answer shows a score of 2. No flags; the comments seem ok. What is indicating "not helpful" there?
 
9:21 PM
@Isaac +1 from me
Speaking of another issue. My comment wasn't complaint about moderators on other sites, but a reply comment below it claimed I did so, and my comment was deleted. I was then silenced for 48 hours. Was I mistreated?
It was not a big deal
I just devoted more time on reading and learning and coding.
 
@JeffSchaller Question is Isaac's too.
 
9:39 PM
@StackExchangeforAll I thought that comment was unfair, since this absolutely is an appropriate place to express concerns about moderators on other sites, but it's not really a suitable place for unceasing repetition of the same comments without regard for context, and people are also certainly free to come to their own judgments on the likely validity of those complaints (which could themselves well be informed by that repetition)
And either way, the end result is about the same
 
@Isaac Please, it's probably not us (i.e., the people in /dev/chat). Votes are anonymous, even to moderators... and you should keep that in mind when considering how much they're worth. Not to mention that at least rep-wise, an upvote is worth 5 times as much as a downvote. So... don't worry about it. I have no idea why people are downvoting the question, it's weird, but... I doubt it's anything personal.
 
@MichaelHomer I was reading about microservice the other day. The contrast between Spring Cloud vs Kubernetes ecosystem is enlightening
I am now reading about docker again, because I saw it was used in microservice.
More focus on Dockerfiles. The first time a year ago, I mis placed my focus on docker shell commands, and neglect dockerfiles
Is it adding a service into a container counted as deployment, or publishing?
I felt that I suddenly can connect some dots
 
@derobert Ahh, yes it is. I was thrown off by the word "answer" and that the link pointed to an answer. I see the Q at -1. Thank you!
 
As obtuse as I am, I could tell he meant his question. That is probably because I could relate and empathize.
 
@MichaelHomer perhaps I'm again missing some context, but I disagree that /dev/chat, or most any chat room, is the appropriate escalation for dealing with other sites' moderators.
 
9:50 PM
@JeffSchaller Who said anything about escalation or dealing with?
People bring up issues they had elsewhere in here all the time and it's only Tim who gets told it's not allowed
 
Sorry for degrading the atmosphere here.
I am a bot. Beep boop
 
@MichaelHomer I'm not aware of any other users saying that other moderators are "corrupt, complicit of supremacists". scope questions, certainly, but not venting about suspensions from other sites.
@StackExchangeforAll thank you; I hope you understand what I'm concerned about.
 
Let's not discuss it any more.
 
@JeffSchaller I'm not aware of any part of that statement that's about escalating or dealing with
If the issue is that something isn't being nice, or it's repetitive, or it's just not true, that's a fair comment to raise
 
10:26 PM
@MichaelHomer I'm sorry if the word "escalating" throws you off. When I see someone complaining about moderators after being suspended, I assume that's what's going on. It certainly isn't de-escalation, and there was no indication that it was (separately) being handled appropriately, which is what I was trying to encourage.
Tim/SEfA has been and was again warned against such comments, which led to their chat suspension.
(sorry for the delay in chat; had to drive to/fro)
 
That assumption seems utterly unfounded
 
Alright; it seems Tim/SEfA is not interested in further discussions. If you are, I'm open to a separate chat room to get to the bottom of it.
 
Thanks for understanding the underlying profound inequality issues. @MichaelHomer I know I am annoying by repeating.
I can also see that some that don't suffer the same issues don't want to discuss them or listen others' miseries. There is no hope to expect them to fight with me or even understand the problem
All I can say to them is that enjoy living in your own bubbles.
 
I can't really object to saying that the content of those comments isn't suitable (if they're true it's by coincidence), but I did not at all see the stated reasoning as accurate or fair, or providing any useful guidance to anybody, participant or observer, about what is or is not acceptable; it was at best misleading, and frankly in so being it feeds into and even substantiates the persecution narrative
 
Btw, I am not SEfA.
 
10:36 PM
@JeffSchaller The answer isn't mine it is from someone else. But it got downvoted, I wonder why as I can not see any reason to regard it as "not useful". It may not be answering the new question but the edit to the new question was after the downvote, so no, that could not be the reason.
@derobert All items in that question: The question and the answers got downvoted for no aparent reason. All three? Doesn't it seem odd?
 
@StackExchangeforAll I've heard your on-network complaints; my honest comment is that from the outside for the most part the case you put forward for mistreatment isn't strong, although there are definitely things that do happen (e.g. the immediate downvotes) that shouldn't
I don't think that the manner in which you bring them up is helpful to you
 
It is not that I am not interested in discussing the issue. When I do, I lose in another fight with "time"
 
@Isaac Odd, sure. But ... not worth worrying about. The more nefarious misuses of voting (e.g., downvoting all of a user's contributions) are supposed to be caught and automatically reversed.
 
@StackExchangeforAll apologies for the abbreviation; since you renamed your account, I wasn't sure if you wanted to go by Tim or by "StackExchange for All", which is just a bit more to type, particularly on mobile.
 
@Isaac But... errr... someone having a bad day and deciding to downvote everything on a question page is, err, no reflection on the quality of the content. So you shouldn't take it personally.
 
10:42 PM
@JeffSchaller The question got downvoted again after I posted here, so i seems reasonable to think that one of the users in /dev/chat was the one that downvoted (I may be wrong, yes).
 
@StackExchangeforAll In particular, the jumps to claiming censorship, conspiracy, and corruption are quite extreme and probably leave a bad taste for readers. Over time, when they keep seeing that without anything to change their mind that builds up
 
@Isaac thanks for the missing context; I'll echo what derobert said -- do your level best to ignore the random one or two votes.
 
I think other than ignoring it, the only thing you could do is report it via the contact page (link at the very bottom of the main site page). Only SE employees can see votes... But I wouldn't bother them unless you've noticed a pattern, not just a few votes.
 
@StackExchangeforAll But, frankly, the user base across the network is pretty awful, and the moderators drawn from that user base are... mixed. I don't see either of those changing, so there's no "fight with you" that's worth buying into
 
@derobert @JeffSchaller Yes, probably I should ignore ... But it gets down to you sometimes and I got to vent off here. Sorry for the noise guys. Having said that: You, the downvoter: vote down again! I dare you!! (just kidding), I already vented it out ....
 
10:49 PM
For what it's worth, I upvoted after seeing the question posted here. It seems like a perfectly decent question. No idea why it would have been downvoted, but I also doubt that the downvoter(s) would be among the few people in this room.
 
@StackExchangeforAll It's possible that one of those new SE clones will turn out to be more to your taste, though I would doubt it personally
 
@Isaac No problem, venting can help. It just... feels a bit of a problem if it affected your mood. Unfortunately... there are people on the Internet who aren't being nice, or at least aren't being considerate. So it'll no doubt happen again. I know I certainly enjoy a better day by ignoring it, and I hope you will too.
Anyway, gotta run.
 
@MichaelHomer I have to agree with Jeff, I don't see how the chat room of this site is an appropriate venue to air your complaints about moderation in another site. Nobody here can do anything about it, after all. But that's neither here nor there.
The problem is that there is no venue where it is appropriate to imply that any group of users is a bunch of lazy, privileged power grabbers. That is Not Nice and I don't see why we should be expected to stand for it.
 
@terdon Thanks. The question is now at zero. I may understand that some zsh supporters may see the question as "not nice to what I value" but the answer from JdeBP has no flaws that I can see, that's why I asked about that answer. But yes,The question seems to me to be "reasonable".
 
@Isaac This is what I like to quote in these situations:
in Ask Ubuntu General Room, May 25 '19 at 14:03, by terdon
@Terrance It's entirely possible you didn't do anything wrong. When I get a downvote, I go look over my answer and fix anything I can find. If I can find nothing, I simply assume the downvoter misunderstood, or is having a bad day, or hates guitar players, or always downvotes any answer posted on a Tuesday or whatever.
 
10:56 PM
@derobert No problem, the bad has been flushed away already. Have a nice day too. Thanks.
 
In other words, we can never know why someone downvotes and it could be due to completely random reasons. If you don't see anything wrong with your post, it's probably fine and it's the downvoter who has some issue or other.
 
@terdon You've got an awful lot of people to kick out, in that case
@terdon Then say that! That's a legitimate reason
Telling Tim that the thing everyone else does is not ok when he does it is exactly the sort of thing he's complaining about
 
Thanks @terdon, yes, (s)he is having the problem, it seems. But it is good to hear the opinion of: I see nothing wrong, move on. That helps understand that there nothing to edit or correct,
 
@terdon When you understand my words in the way you framed it, I am not okay with it.
You are avoidng the corruption among moderators
 
@StackExchangeforAll Then you should really be more careful in choosing your words. I do not like being called lazy or privileged. Especially given how much time I have spent over the years trying to help you, stop others from attacking you, looking into your complaints about bullying. You have never shown me anything but scorn. You always assume you are the victim and seem to feel that gives you the right to attack others.
@MichaelHomer I would really appreciate it if you could be a bit more specific. You keep leaving these vague accusations but you've never shown me something I could act on. I can't do anything unless you show me something specific.
 
11:03 PM
@terdon That last sentence is very on point and Tim, I think it's something to give real consideration to
@terdon To pick a hopefully-safe example: nobody here is in a position to do anything about Indian banking regulation either, but nobody's suggesting that it wasn't ok to bring those issues up
 
@MichaelHomer No. But nobody ever said this room has any specific topic. However, coming in here with accusations about other users is not cool.
I guess I see a difference between ranting against a banking system and ranting against the moderators of another site of the network.
 
How well you can stay cool, when you are facing the same dsicriminations from some users and moderators, lose speech rights on one after another sites
How can you fire a "ticket", when you have lost every proper channel to complain?
 
@StackExchangeforAll Try Quora
 
That didn't work
How well can you stay cool, when massive number of posts are closed and deleted immediately?
 
@StackExchangeforAll Yes, I can understand that it is frustrating. But then, maybe you should try to listen to what all those people are telling you about how the sites work. We have had this conversation dozens of times by now. These sites have specific rules which you find oppressive. I can understand that, but you need to understand that you cannot expect everyone else to change in order to be more aligned with your preferences.
 
11:08 PM
How well can you stay cool, when your accounts are followed by supremacists from site to site?
 
@StackExchangeforAll Tim, what do you mean by "supremacists"?
 
@StackExchangeforAll See, there you go again. You just called other users supremacists.
Don't do that!
 
How well can I stay cool, when I hear moderators are praised for their unpaid work?
 
It seems like a very loaded term that you keep using and I don't know what you can be referring to
 
But no one dare to bring up their corruption?
 
11:10 PM
There we go again...
 
Because I can't stay cool
 
@StackExchangeforAll I just don't think they are corrupt in any meaningful sense and I can't see how they could be
 
@StackExchangeforAll Then you should probably leave. I can understand that you're frustrated. We all get frustrated. However, when you are too frustrated to stay cool, the wise thing to do is to walk away and come back when you can discuss things calmly.
 
supremacist: an advocate of the supremacy of a particular group,
by suppressing the rights of other groups
 
I don't have a terribly high regard for the network's users generally, which is why I don't post on it any more, and the moderators are part of the users. But "corruption" just seems totally infeasible for anybody here
If you were arguing that the company was corrupt in some sense, I could buy that perhaps, but users just don't have anything to be corrupt for
 
11:13 PM
Please note what Michael just did. He expressed his displeasure with users in general and moderators in particular, but he did not call anyone names and he did not insult anyone.
 
The discrimination has been on for years on multiple sites (including U&L, although I didn't bring it up this time). As someone who relied on communication with others to learn and improve, the long lasting discrimination can't be solved by walking away temporarily
 
@StackExchangeforAll That word usually has and arguably requires a qualifier (e.g. "white supremacist"). It isn't meaningful on its own
 
You are, of course, free to have your opinion of other users, including the moderation team. Most especially the mod team, since we are elected by you and are given certain powers. That should open us to criticism. But that criticism needs to be expressed civilly. And calling people "supremacists" or implying they don't need to work for a living is not civil.
 
At least in the first five years of the last decade, there was no such amount ofdiscrimination
Why no one calls out "not civil" when I am bullied?
 
@StackExchangeforAll Both of the people you are talking to have done that a lot
 
11:16 PM
@StackExchangeforAll I do. I have. But you don't seem to notice.
 
@StackExchangeforAll If you're genuinely interested in something along the SE model that works differently, there are at least two active projects working on building exactly that
Perhaps you could steer one of those in the direction you want
 
And Michael has bent over backwards to be kind and helpful to you. More so than any other user, I think.
 
Please being kind is not "bent over"
it is a virtue
not everyone has
 
Sorry, that's just an expression that means that Michael has tried very hard to be kind to you.
 
When one has a virtue, it doesn't need trying hard.
I don't want to talk any more
 
11:20 PM
@StackExchangeforAll I know I keep repeating this and you've indicated it's not feasible, but I really really think that putting some of the time you put into reading computer books into investigating local counselling options, or online options for it, or even self-guided CBT or something (from a book if you like) would be extremely helpful to you
They can't change the facts on the ground, but they might be able to help you change your responses or your feelings in a productive way
I know the health systems and availability in the US (I think that's where you are?) probably isn't great, but I hope there will be something around that's accessible to you
If nothing else, Wikipedia's list of cognitive distortions might have some recognisable points in it
 
Tim, it seems to me that there's some disconnect between what you think this is and what it is. Using a word like "rights" implies something that doesn't exist -- Stack Exchange is not a free-speech platform, so Michael's got a good suggestion with finding another platform that matches your ideals. If nothing else, to save your frustrations.
 
@StackExchangeforAll You've made some valuable contributions to the site and elsewhere on the network, but the lashing-out, insulting, leaping to conclusions of targeted persecution, and so on, is unhelpful and harmful to the people around you. Part of the moderators' ostensible role is exactly to protect people from that, including themselves
I don't remember what either of them are called but there are at least two projects ongoing and at least one of them has a U+L clone already
 
codidact and topanswers are the terms that come to mind, but I don't have direct "U&L" links handy
both have been mentioned here, so should be searchable
 
Codidact doesn't have any sites yet. Well, there's a clone of Writing but that's a special case, running on different software.
 

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