The Nineteenth Byte

Neil

00:25

@WezloOvOo probably 90% of everyone's messages are replies, but they're replying to a recent enough message that it's not worthwhile actually marking them as a reply

Wezl oOvOo

sure you can state it that way

Steffan

00:53

I wonder, can we multiply ascii-piet byte counts by log256(40) since they only use 40 chars?

Zion mycelia adamancy

@DialFrost Answers is not the way to rep :P

I've posted ~160 questions for roughly 30k rep vs ~800 answers for around 20k rep

Aiden Chow

@Zionmyceliaadamancy lol problem is i never get any good challenge ideas, idek how yall can produce so many challenges

emanresu A

I've kinda burned out on challenges

Zion mycelia adamancy

@AidenChow I see patterns in things in everyday life, browse OEIS, etc.

Uni is both a blessing and a curse for challenge ideas :P

Aiden Chow

like once in a while i get a sudden spark of inspiration but otherwise i cant really think of anything good

emanresu A

01:00

Ah well, I have 69/100 on Socratic so I'm gonna leave that for a while

Aiden Chow

nice

Zion mycelia adamancy

Keep in mind tho, that of all of the "ideas" I have for challenges, maybe 1 in 5 ever gets developed into a challenge, and only 1 in 3 of those are posted

Aiden Chow

@Steffan da hell does log256 have anything to do with anything

never seen that used before

Zion mycelia adamancy

@AidenChow There are 256 available bytes

Aiden Chow

@Zionmyceliaadamancy yes im aware

but like

log_256??

whats that supposed to do

like brainfuck only use +-,><.[]

so log_256(8) ????????

doesnt make any sense

Zion mycelia adamancy

01:04

The better scaling factor is log_2

Aiden Chow

why do u have to scale the byte count by anything??

Zion mycelia adamancy

@AidenChow If you only use 8 characters (or 40), then the amount of info that one character encodes is substantially less than in a language which uses 256 characters. For example, you can encode each bf command as 3 bits, so an argument can be made that each bf program should only be counted by scaling it to the bit level

Aiden Chow

so u saying that i can have 0.665241011861... bytes???

da hell

thats like super confusing lol

Zion mycelia adamancy

@AidenChow Not exactly, but you can "scale" the byte count according to that

Aiden Chow

ok well im not gonna do that, too weird for me

DialFrost

01:16

@Zionmyceliaadamancy um did you change your name?

Aiden Chow

lol

u changed ur profile pic too

Zion mycelia adamancy

@DialFrost Nope, I'm a brand new user here

emanresu A

Unrelated, but anyone know what happened to caird?

Unrelated String

i sure don't

Aiden Chow

ye he gone

@Zionmyceliaadamancy "brand new user" with 50k rep lol

Zion mycelia adamancy

01:28

@AidenChow Didn't you see? Some girl named "caird" gave me all her rep in bounties over the last month or so

Besides, I'm obviously not caird, she used a dog with a SE hat as pfp, my dog clearly has a santa hat

Aiden Chow

@Zionmyceliaadamancy yes that makes a lot of sense!

lyxal

Idk why y'all are making a fuss over zionmycelia having speedran 50k reps. It's a completely normal occurrence that happens at least once a Tuesday.

emanresu A

@Zionmyceliaadamancy Oh, I see. And somehow the mods didn't notice :P

lyxal

As I said, happens at least once a Tuesday. Nothing to notice

Aiden Chow

@lyxal i see... looks at this quarter's leaderboard

hyper-neutrino

01:33

@lyxal does it happen on days other than tuesdays, or does it sometimes happen more than once on a given tuesday but only on tuesdays

lyxal

Only on Tuesdays

50k rep all of a sudden on any other day (e.g Wednesday) is suspicious

emanresu A

Every Tuesday, we learn when the next Tuesday will be. For some reason, it's always consistent. We need a ~~worse~~ better calendar.

Aiden Chow

why tuesday of all days?

thejonymyster

@lyxal Sus!

lyxal

@AidenChow It just do be

DialFrost

01:35

@Zionmyceliaadamancy funny

I loved the prev name :(

Aiden Chow

@lyxal today is friday tho, you telling me i havent noticed some user gaining so much rep this past week?

Steffan

@AidenChow like you know half-byte languages like halfwit and risky? they have 16 chars in their codepage because log256(16) = 0.5

Aiden Chow

@Steffan but like... i dont understand what log has to do with this at all, whats the reason why u use log and not anything else?

Steffan

I don't know either

Aiden Chow

cool!

Steffan

01:38

Ask someone who knows math :P

thejonymyster

id go for roots instead

Steffan

Jun 27 at 17:02, by pxeger

half-byte languages don't use half the codepage of full-byte languages, they use the square root of it (since there are 256 bytes, that's 1/16th)

thejonymyster

yeah

half byte encoding means you have half as many bits

i.e. digits

half as many digits of a number is the square root (basically)

10^2 = 100

then you remember that its indexing at 0, so you subtract 1

and you get

9 => 99

thats the intuition for me anyway :P

lyxal

@AidenChow it's actually Saturday and of course you didn't notice because it happened on a Tuesday.

Aiden Chow

@lyxal time zones but ok

Steffan

01:42

exactly

So it makes sense when you consider what logarithms are: Reverse exponentiation. log_{x}(x^y) = y

thejonymyster

@Steffan insert segue into 3b1b link relevant to topic

Steffan

using log2 instead of log256 will give you the number of bits each char will take up

and 2^n would be the same as the number of bit combinations possible with n bits

Jun 25 at 9:21, by caird coinheringaahing

@emanresuA Y'all want me to change to "Zion mycelia adamancy"?

DialFrost

01:57

@Steffan noooooooooooo :(

Steffan

At least he's changing it back in a month

Jun 25 at 17:50, by Zion mycelia adamancy

Me too :P

Zion mycelia adamancy

02:26

@DialFrost FWIW, while I'm happy to change away from caird every once in a while, I'll always go back to it eventually :P

@Steffan *she, for the moment, if you don't mind

emanresu A

02:53

@hyper-neutrino Would you mind putting Piet LoTM on upcoming events?

hyper-neutrino

yeah sure

Steffan

@Zionmyceliaadamancy "for the moment"?

Now I don't know if you're a he, she, or temporarily she, or what :P

thejonymyster

03:12

thats just life sometimes

Radvylf Programs

03:24

@Steffan If you find it confusing, I'd really recommend this video (it's about gender in VRChat rather than just gender in particular, but outside of that context it's still really good)

6

DLosc

03:46

@DLosc @emanresuA @thejonymyster Added Unicode support for (non-negated) character classes in Regenerate.

thejonymyster

:D yahoo

Radvylf Programs

As a Regenerate n00b why not negated ones?

Planned feature or ASCII-only

DLosc

yesterday, by DLosc

@pxeger I guess, as long as you're willing to deal with a 144,000-character character class potentially. :P

thejonymyster

@RadvylfPrograms regenerate is reverse regex, so any character that can potentially be matched is actually being generated by the program

Radvylf Programs

Yeah it prolly wouldn't be super useful, but still :p

thejonymyster

03:48

so [^] is all of unicode :P

DLosc

I figured keeping the negated ones ASCII-only wasn't likely to prevent anyone from doing something they needed to do, and might help in some cases. If I'm proven wrong, I'll consider changing it in the future.

Radvylf Programs

@thejonymyster Nw I at least know that much about it :p (in fact I might submit a form 827 since I had a similar idea too but never bothered implementing it)

thejonymyster

~~tbh weve probably all had the idea at some point~~

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms I'll gladly give you 30% of my earnings :D

thejonymyster

im actually working on a thing i find interesting but i haven't defined any of the parts that make it work yet

Radvylf Programs

03:50

@DLosc Now all we need to do is (profit)+

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms Stonks

Radvylf Programs

CMC: Repeatedly print 30% of that ^

thejonymyster

@thejonymyster idea is this: a binary tree with a pointer on it. pointer goes down the tree, choosing either the left or right branch based on (tbd). another thing that can happen is that the pointer can optionally chop off the branch its on, keeping the bottom half and deleting the top. it does this when (tbd). finally, whenever the pointer reaches a leaf, a copy of the entire tree is pasted at the pointer, so that it can continue downward

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms Hmm, can I raise your share to 1/3? It'll make the math easier. :P

thejonymyster

~~ive been reading a lot of ais523~~

DLosc

03:54

@thejonymyster Hmm, I agree: that sounds interesting, but I don't know how it would actually work.

thejonymyster

me neither, im still stuck trying to implement the mechanics of it

js is a rough language to do this in

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms Okay, that wasn't too hard after all

thejonymyster

@DLosc first instinct for me is to have there be a "program" which loops, either going left, right, or cutting

PyGamer0

04:23

@DialFrost fun fact: caird's old name came from a compressed jelly string.. Radvylf decided to make a jelly string decompressor, and when he tried running it over the string which should decompress to "caird cairdcoinheringaahing", it decompressed to "Zion mycelia adamancy"

caird decided to leave cgcc

and someone made a new account with the other name

DLosc

Print all terminating decimal numbers

thejonymyster

04:56

js is being a menace to my binary tree thing

anyone have any lang recommendations before i go insane and try doing it with regex loops

preferably something really good with arrays - aw shid do i gotta sit down and learn apl

DialFrost

Btw does anyone here know how to add a flair to a google doc that will update by itself

PyGamer0

05:31

@thejonymyster k

or rust if you want some more "control"

or python

thejonymyster

i hate programming so much

but also thank u for the recs

PyGamer0

or just do it in minecraft lol

thejonymyster

ur right

Sandbox Posts

05:55

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Nest some addition, differently This question is a follow-up to Nest some addition. Lambda calculus is a system of computation based on single-argument functions; everything in it is such a function. Due to this functional nature, juxtaposition is commonly used to denote function application, gro...

Neil

07:11

@RadvylfPrograms tl;dw

Neil

07:54

@Zionmyceliaadamancy the point is that questions aren't easy rep. you get 7.5 times as many upvotes for a question because they're 7.5 times harder.

Zion mycelia adamancy

09:42

@Steffan I'm genderfluid

emanresu A

10:17

CMQ: Would a "transpose an infinite matrix" challenge be a dupe?

PyGamer0

@pxeger yeah so i was looking over vim9 release notes and i am surprised... they are planning to add OOP in vimscript

like WHY

syntax is now better though.

Ginger

11:12

${GREETING-82AC03A6-9D0B-4921-85D6-4196A446BE0E}

New Posts

11:50

0

Q: Draw this fractal generated by applying newtons method to cosh(x) - 1

I came across this picture the other day: (Credit to Josep M Batlle I Ferrer) Your job is to generate this picture. This graph is generated by repeatedly applying newton's method to the graph of: $$f(x)=cosh(x)-1$$ In other words, repeatedly apply the following function to every point till the r...

Neil

12:03

did you know, if you roll 4 dice and sort them into order, then on average you will roll [2, 3, 4, 5]?

CMC: write a function that happens to map the input [0, 2, 3, 4, 6] into [0, 1, 2, 3, 4] but without making it obvious

mathcat

wait I remember seeing a stand-up maths video about that yesterday

Neil

yeah I just watched it

Neil

12:28

CMP: 1 dice or 1 die?

Ginger

1 diece

pxeger

When one's heart stops, one dies. When one is cutting food into small chunks, one dices.

PyGamer0

12:51

1 diaes

Ginger

1 dyeis

mathcat

13:11

Is importing external libraries allowed here?

pxeger

Why wouldn't it be?

mathcat

Didn't notice it said "Python+Pygame"

Ginger

CMC: bash your keyboard until your computer shuts down

mousetail

FKELJFKELJFKLDJFKLJFKEWJFLK3iorudifkjsdklfjsl

Mousetail has left the chat

Ginger

how'd ya hit a 3 in the middle there

user

13:20

Not this joke again

mousetail

What can I say I'm flexible

mathcat

Hmm I thought you left, weird

Ginger

they rejoined

mousetail

SSD so my computer restarts fast

Ginger

well I want to try this now

all that happened was I saved this page to IOaIFGVYI78XDFZ8UIT67A"&.html

Zion mycelia adamancy

13:23

@Ginger ~~mousetail is a normal human typing with their human hands~~

mousetail

I'm a mouse though, not a human

Ginger

@Zionmyceliaadamancy ~~Yeah, of course. I know.~~

pxeger

13:39

not exactly right but I think it's relevant

Zion mycelia adamancy

Very true, very wise

pxeger

13:52

→ 1 message moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

PyGamer0

14:07

my java homework: print this sequence <numbers...> upto n terms

me: haha OEIS go brrr

mathcat

what's the sequence

PyGamer0

the sequences are very easy , like f(n) = n*n-1

mousetail

0 -1 0 -1 0 -1 0 -1 ...

PyGamer0

14:26

CMC:

Wezl oOvOo

14:36

APL: ∘.⌊⍨⍳

Zion mycelia adamancy

@PyGamer0 If we can use 1 to n instead of 0 to n-1, I can do it in 2 bytes. Otherwise, 4: Try it online!

Each line is a different way :P

mathcat

15:06

Vyxal, 13 bytes(?)

New Posts

15:27

0

Q: Find the best character arrangement

You want to write your English essay. However, all characters on your keyboard broke other than the arrow keys and the enter key. You want to find out how to place the characters so you can write your essay with the least movement. Formally, you have to assign to each character of !"$%&'()+,-./0...

grid fastest-code optimization

mathcat

> Your language must have a freely available interpreter/compiler capable of running on Linux

Windows team, fight

Wezl oOvOo

hehehe is there even a Windows team

mathcat

If a team can have just one member, then yes

<whisper>I use windows</whisper>

Radvylf Programs

You can Linux on Windows but it's harder to Windows on Linux

Wezl oOvOo

I mean plenty use windows but that doesn't mean they care enough to join the team :P

mathcat

15:35

Is it that hard to install a VM?

Radvylf Programs

You can also Linux on Chrome OS which is convenient for me

Wezl oOvOo

I thought it was Chrome OS on Linux :P

Radvylf Programs

I mean, Chrome OS is basically just Linux with some fancy restrictions

mathcat

more restrictions than Linux?

Wezl oOvOo

Linux has comparatively few restrictions

of course I must mention BSD here because my friend uses BSD and I'm sure it's better than all the rest in most ways :P

mathcat

15:39

I haven't used Linux often, so idk really

Radvylf Programs

Linux is in theory much more permissive than Windows but in practice you're held back from actually doing a lot of things because of lack of high quality software (and often hardware support)

Wezl oOvOo

I'll make the enraged noises in lieu of professional linux users

wait are we counting android :P

Radvylf Programs

No, since things like Android and Chrome OS add lots of additional stuff

While it creates other problems, having a big organization (and because capitalism, typically a company) backing an OS is kind of the only viable way to make it actually good and useful

mathcat

16:03

Do you think Chrome OS is better than Linux/Windows/Ubuntu?

PyGamer0

Linux = Ubuntu

LOL

mathcat

lol

PyGamer0

@mathcat i use windows but i want to switch to linux

because i cant gui with wsl2 :(

DLosc

I prefer Windows for anything with a GUI and Linux for anything command-line

PyGamer0

by gui i meant makingngui apps

Wezl oOvOo

16:07

webkit is the best OS! :P

PyGamer0

one of the project i have in my mind is a physics simulation

mathcat

@WezloOvOo no tetris os is better!

Wezl oOvOo

nah because if you draw weasels in tetris os they will get corrupted on the next tick

mathcat

@PyGamer0 physics physics or ai physics?

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms I think you should add the caveat that it depends what you want to do. For development (my use case), Linux has the highest software quality available

I know what you mean though - clearly, for things like video editing or CAD, Windows has much better options

PyGamer0

16:21

@mathcat physics physics

Radvylf Programs

17:55

@mathcat Depends. It works great for what I want to do.

It's certainly not "better" in an objective sense since there's a lot of stuff you just can't really do, and if you use Chrome OS you probably want to have another Windows/Linux computer lying around for things like gaming, video editing, using certain OS-specific software, etc., but as a laptop for taking to school and using around the house and stuff chromebooks aren't bad

It's like if you had WSL, but instead of Windows, you have a browser and a login screen. That's really all Chrome OS is, a browser with an operating system as a bonus, and the ability to use Android and Linux apps.

Steffan

@PyGamer0 in wsl2, you can launch gui stuff

it will open right up as a window

mathcat

18:13

@RadvylfPrograms intresting

> We're relatively confident that if [Vivaldi] were alive today he would have used Vivaldi as his default browser on all his devices.

<burn>Maybe that's because he was *a bad composer*</burn>

/jk lol but Vivaldi is too overrated

pxeger

the browser or the composer?

mathcat

The composer

pxeger

I don't see Vivaldi being especially rated anywhere

mathcat

I had to study about Vivaldi for two month is my crappy music class

Name me a Vivaldi piece that is not coincidentally the four seasons

heeeeeey wait a second :)

I got my second yearling badge!

Steffan

18:40

@mathcat too bad vyxal doesn't have a builtin to convert anti-diagonals to a matrix. I think I could do 5 bytes if it did

mathcat

How'd that look like?

Steffan

ʁK∞{insert non-existent builtin here}

Radvylf Programs

Is there one for normal diagonals? You could just transpose after and it's only a byte more

Steffan

Nope

Do you know of a lang that does?

Radvylf Programs

IIRC Jelly does, it's a digraph though

It has one for antidiagonals too though

I wouldn't be surprised if APL had one

pxeger

18:51

@RadvylfPrograms jht.hyper-neutrino.xyz/atoms/reconstruct-from-antidiagonals

Steffan

Awesome

mathcat

@Steffan neat

Steffan

Welp, this is much longer than I intended, but 9 bytes.

(Jelly)

mathcat

CMC: Diagonals to matrix without built-ins

pxeger

could be an interesting enough challenge to go on main tbh

mathcat

19:01

hmm okay

Steffan

It could be 7 if ¹Ƥ was 1 byte and m0 was one byte, and less if ŒḌ tolerated different order.

thejonymyster

^^^

pxeger

@mathcat if it's not a dupe, that is

the closest I could find was codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/75588 so I think it's probably ok

mathcat

I ended up with the same challenge too

A challenge idea a day keeps the boogeyman away.

Steffan

I can never think of challenges :P

mousetail

19:14

Since I started golfing I constantly think of challenges, only problem is they are all terrible

mathcat

Ask wheat-wizard or bubbler or some professional challeng-er, maybe they can give you private lessons

@mousetail Same, I was about to post "Add two numbers" before I realized it was ~~a bad challenge idea~~ a dupe.

mousetail

I wanted to do a "implement flappy bird" challange but that's probably a bit over the top in terms of complexity

pxeger

@mathcat Here's my overall process: always be writing code, and note down any time you encounter an interesting problem in your programming which could be a good challenge

To be a good challenge, ideally:

1. it can be simplified so that it doesn't need loads of obscure context to understand. (This means the challenge is not too oddly specific and is of general interest)

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail I do think a few really large, complex challenges are interesting, to break up the simpler sequence and array challenges we typically have, so if you can get it specified with enough clarity I say go for it

pxeger

2. The problem is easy for a human to solve in their head, at least for small cases (This generally means the challenge is easy to explain and understand)

3. While solving the problem yourself in code, you find yourself coming up with multiple different algorithms which can work. (This means the challenge is fun to solve)

and generally, maintain a list of challenge ideas, so that if you come up with one, you can really easily add it to the list without immediately having to write the whole challenge up before you forget it

3

then occasionally scan the list, looking for ones that are particularly good

this process can also help you come up with more ideas by combining things you see in your list

Radvylf Programs

19:24

I just use the sandbox for that. You can post drafts with a paragraph or two of explanation, not just fully fleshed out ones

pxeger

My challenge ideas list is almost all one-line descriptions. As long as I can understand what I meant, when I read it back, it's fine.

The quicker it is to make the note, the more often you'll be able to do it

mathcat

That's a great checklist to remember when writing challenges.

pxeger

These are good ways to make a good challenge, but you can definitely have a good challenge without meeting these criteria

In fact, I'd say most challenges don't meet all of those

mathcat

The Sandbox viewer isn't working anymore, right?

It would be nice to have a simple user script that notifies you if there's a new sandbox post.

pxeger

You could use Redwolf's New Posts userscript

mathcat

19:31

link?

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms do you have a link for it?

Radvylf Programs

It might be in my userscripts repo but IIRC it's broken

It doesn't do sandbox posts anyway though

pxeger

wouldn't it work on meta though, and therefore do sandbox posts?

Radvylf Programs

Oh, it might've

github.com/RedwolfPrograms/userscripts/raw/main/…

si niny bork

mathcat

looks like its broken

Sandbox Posts

19:53

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Reconstruct Matrix from its diagonals Given the diagonals of a matrix, reconstruct the original matrix. The diagonals parallel to the major diagonal will be given. Rules The matrix will be non-empty and 2-dimensional The diagonals will be given either starting with the main diagonal and then th...

Neil

ah yes, it's that time of year when sports fans get to rewrite the tv schedules

7 hours ago, by Neil

CMP: 1 dice or 1 die?

Steffan

@mathcat I fixed it up myself to make it work

I'll have to fork it

Steffan

21:25

@mathcat here's the sandbox viewer userscript I used which is fixed up a bit: gist.github.com/Steffan153/21f1f92010471a4d5393ecb00f7f031b

thejonymyster

22:26

do we have a "given a tree graph, draw it" challenge

or um

however youd phrase that

Radvylf Programs

We have lots of challenges along those lines yeah

thejonymyster

idk how to search for it then

im getting a lot of real life trees

Radvylf Programs

lol, maybe try adding the data-structures tag

thejonymyster

thank u found one

hm, we dont have a graphical output one

Radvylf Programs

Ooh, that could be interesting

emanresu A

22:30

You'd need a solid spec though

thejonymyster

yea but idk how to specify graphical output challenges yet lol

yeahh ^^

Aiden Chow

hmmm graphical output sounds interesting, im already thinking how i would implement smth like that with desmos

thejonymyster

i wonder if itd be better if it were only a binary tree

but either way i think itd be at least a little interesting

Radvylf Programs

Binary tree would be more interesting IMO yeah

thejonymyster

23:22

well i do maintain that i have no idea how to spec it but i guess i can give it a try :P main thing is i also dont know how to reference implement it or make a good graphical representation

i use paint :P

i'll read through a bunch of gfx output questions maybe

to study

Transcript for