The Nineteenth Byte

Radvylf Programs

2:00 PM

How does that help

pxeger

@WheatWizard just replace l with whatever motion you want to find the end of X

Radvylf Programs

That adds more keystrokes without fixing any of the things I have problems with

pxeger

if you have XYZXYXZXYZ you can do 3fZ

Radvylf Programs

@RadvylfPrograms Which sums up vim, basically

Wheat Wizard

@pxeger A lot more annoying that (<esc>3fZa)

And often (<esc>%a) works well too, which wouldn't work otherwise.

pxeger

2:01 PM

Well whichever you don't have muscle memory for is more annoying

Wheat Wizard

Auto closing just has zero benefit.

It inserts random crap unintelligently into the program.

pxeger

You're entitled to your opinion, but to pretend that it doesn't have benefit for some people (e.g. me) is riduculous

Radvylf Programs

Vim is the text editing equaivalent of a cult. It starts out pretty reasonable, as an easy to get to and somewhat capable editor in the terminal, and then you either escape early or all the wack keystrokes become muscle memory and you're stuck with it and can never escape

3

Wheat Wizard

What is the benefit?

Mayube

I used to work with a lot of horrible programming software that required constantly switching between mouse and keyboard, so I learned to code quickly with one hand so i can keep the other on my mouse.
Vim users hate me

@RadvylfPrograms Arch is the linux distro equivalent of a cult. It starts out pretty reasonable, as a cutting-edge and somewhat capable distro, and then you either escape early or all the AUR packages become habit and you're stuck with it and can never escape

Radvylf Programs

2:05 PM

I tried to install it once because I disliked Ubuntu but forgot Fedora existed. Glad I got away with my life.

Mayube

I tried Arch once. It was fine for a week, then I updated my packages and bricked Xorg

Radvylf Programs

Arch was great until I tried to actually do stuff with it, like install a desktop thingy.

And pacman is awful

pxeger

@WheatWizard Exactly what it purports to do: it inserts brackets where I want them

Mayube

I'm a diehard debster

PyGamer0

btw i use ~~arch~~ neovim

Wheat Wizard

2:08 PM

@pxeger And how is that useful? It doesn't save any keystrokes since you still need to move through them.

SegFaultPlus4

@RadvylfPrograms just like JS

PyGamer0

@RadvylfPrograms except when you press <esc>

SegFaultPlus4

@WheatWizard you can CLICK where you want to go

pxeger

@WheatWizard Most of the time I don't need to move through them until after I've typed something else, and switching from typing to moving has realtively high cost for me

Wheat Wizard

A click is like +5 keystrokes.

PyGamer0

2:08 PM

clicking is slow

Radvylf Programs

Idk about you, but moving my mouse to the right spot takes twice as long as typing )

PyGamer0

hence vim and emacs

Mayube

@SegFaultPlus4 JavaScript is the programming equivalent of a cult. It starts out pretty reasonable, as an easy to get into and somewhat capable language in the browser, and then you either escape early or all the wack hacks become muscle memory and you're stuck with it and can never escape

3

Radvylf Programs

Idk about that

PyGamer0

@WheatWizard what editor do you use?

Mayube

2:09 PM

@RadvylfPrograms That's why I learned to type with one hand to keep the other on my mouse :>

SegFaultPlus4

@RadvylfPrograms ofc, you're too far gone already

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms I starred that, interpreting it as a satire of your claims earlier. I don't think it's meant to be serious

PyGamer0

@Mayube thats ... even slower

Wheat Wizard

@PyGamer0 I use neovim or emacs depending on what I'm doing.

Mayube

@PyGamer0 just gotta git gud

PyGamer0

2:10 PM

@WheatWizard oh

pxeger

@WheatWizard Do you use evil mode in emacs, or do you maintain two sets of muscle memory?

Wheat Wizard

I only use evil mode.

PyGamer0

@WheatWizard do you have your config public? (if you have one)

Mayube

@pxeger It was absolutely satire, as was my earlier arch rendition. It's just an easily applicable template for <insert thing that is generally disliked by people that don't use it>

PyGamer0

im planning to rewrite my neovim config in fennel

SegFaultPlus4

2:11 PM

@Mayube fair enough

@pxeger what is evil mode

Wheat Wizard

@PyGamer0 I keep everything vanilla. That way if I crash land on an island without my config I can use the default vim install easily.

pxeger

IIUC, it's basically vim emulation for emacs?

PyGamer0

@SegFaultPlus4 vim emulation in emacs

Mayube

@SegFaultPlus4 vim bindings in emac

SegFaultPlus4

ninja'd

Radvylf Programs

2:12 PM

One thing I hate about vim is that every. single. distro. has a different vim

PyGamer0

@WheatWizard oh

@RadvylfPrograms use neovim \o/

Radvylf Programs

The whole point of using vim is it's always there

PyGamer0

@SegFaultPlus4 double ninja'd

pxeger

@PyGamer0 The thing I dislike most about vim is its ecosystem and scripting and whatnot. Having a terrible scripting system to begin with leads to the carcophony that is Lua and fennel and all other foreign scripting interfaces

Radvylf Programs

Not going to go through the effort of installing a new text editor just to add a line to a config file

PyGamer0

2:13 PM

fennel just transpiles to lua

Mayube

@pxeger I agree, vimscript is the worst thing about vim imo

PyGamer0

lua is embedded in nvim

pxeger

I'd love a complete rewrite of vim with proper fully extensible design from the ground up

(but the same default bindings of course)

PyGamer0

^

SegFaultPlus4

@ľýxäł (or was it @lyxal?) told me flat jokes are funny

what are those

Wheat Wizard

2:14 PM

@pxeger Literally why I use emacs in evil mode. Emacs lisp is so comfy compared to vim scripting.

SegFaultPlus4

also ^^^^

PyGamer0

@Mayube yeah...apparently Bram is planning to increase the speed of vimscript in vim 9

vim9script

pxeger

@PyGamer0 yes, speed... that's clearly the biggest weakness of an incapable inconsistent language which is used only in interactive contexts where speed is no object.

PyGamer0

@WheatWizard i mean,i guess fennel + neovim does that

SegFaultPlus4

v10mscript next

then v1mscr1pt

pxeger

2:15 PM

@WheatWizard I've been putting of trying emacs for a while. Maybe I should seriously consider it

Mayube

@SegFaultPlus4 2vim2script

Radvylf Programs

Me feeling smugly superior using Text

PyGamer0

@pxeger github.com/vim/vim/blob/master/README_VIM9.md

SegFaultPlus4

@PyGamer0 me using notepad like 2007 never left:

pxeger

The problem I have with emacs is that it does too much, which is non-UNIXy and doesn't mesh with the rest of my workflow

Radvylf Programs

2:17 PM

'cause we all need more UNIX in our lives :p

Wheat Wizard

I use emacs for exactly two things: 1) text editing. 2) Resetting my network connection.

3

pxeger

I don't want my editor to have a VCS interface, file browser or window multiplexer or terminal emulator builtin, because I already have those (git CLI, coreutils, kitty, and kitty, respectively). And I want it to start up very quickly

SegFaultPlus4

question: how did we cause an argument over auto-closing

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms Yes. We do.

PyGamer0

@pxeger have you heard about impatient.nvim?

pxeger

2:19 PM

nvim already has a good startup time for me

But if I start using emacs then I feel like it might end up being my whole OS, and then clearly won't start up quickly

Wheat Wizard

My router's utility page doesn't work on firefox or chromium, but it does work in emacs' web browser for some reason.

pxeger

Oh, you were being serious

Wheat Wizard

Yes. It is a very strange situation.

Radvylf Programs

nvim user be like:

pxeger

Text user be like:

Radvylf Programs

2:22 PM

Hey, all I know is that my editor is fully customizable in a language I'm already familiar with, starts up instantly, and is really quick and convenient to navigate.

Mayube

real chads use notepad

and nano for linux

PyGamer0

@pxeger impatient should speed it up by a lot

Radvylf Programs

And I don't have to worry about people yelling at me because I spend too much time actually being productive instead of navigating

Wheat Wizard

I can open nano inside of emacs. Checkmate.

PyGamer0

github.com/lewis6991/impatient.nvim

@WheatWizard what can emacs not do.

pxeger

2:24 PM

@WheatWizard How long does emacs take to start up?

Wheat Wizard

@pxeger Obviously it depends on the emacs and the computer. On my 10 year old macbook it takes about 4 seconds to open spacemacs.

Radvylf Programs

Is startup time really an issue with terminal-based text editors? Or is it just exaggerated. I mean, in theory a GUI-based one has way more it needs to do, but I've never had an issue with those.

PyGamer0

4 seconds is too much

pxeger

Hmm. 4 seconds is too long for me

Radvylf Programs

Is that for starting the editor once and then you just open files in it, or is it per-file?

Wheat Wizard

2:26 PM

I don't usually close emacs until the end of the day.

Unlike vim where I jump in and out constantly.

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms The way I use vim, and want to use any editor really, is to have lots of mostly ephemeral instances across my terminal windows

so I want to have a startup time measured in milliseconds

Wheat Wizard

I once tried to add a commit in emacs and my default text editor is nvim, so when I ran git commit it opened nvim inside the emacs buffer. Since I use evil mode <esc> was being intercepted by emacs and so I had a hell of a time trying to close vim.

PyGamer0

@WheatWizard do you use github?

Wheat Wizard

I have to at work. But I use github as little as I possibly can.

PyGamer0

why?

pxeger

2:31 PM

Jan 17 at 15:58, by Wheat Wizard

Microsoft.

Mayube

@WheatWizard Do you use some other git service or do you avoid git in general?

ah gitlab

good choice

Radvylf Programs

Honestly Microsoft's pretty cool

PyGamer0

@pxeger ah makes sense

Mayube

@RadvylfPrograms as one of the world's 9 edge users, I agree

Wheat Wizard

@RadvylfPrograms Posts that make me want to commit 11.

4

PyGamer0

2:32 PM

@RadvylfPrograms looks at wsl2 and EEE comes to mind

SegFaultPlus4

@PyGamer0 E3

PyGamer0

some people think Microsoft is going to end linux

Radvylf Programs

Every corporation's job is, by law, to make money. And as far as I'm aware, Microsoft hasn't done anything particularly evil to make money, and they've been responsible for various things I like.

SegFaultPlus4

@Mayube as a second of the world's edge 9 users, i second this

@PyGamer0 E3

@WheatWizard make it a series

Mayube

@RadvylfPrograms well now that I don't agree with. Microsoft have done some very evil things in their past

pxeger

2:33 PM

@RadvylfPrograms Every publicly owned corporation's job is legally to please its shareholders

SegFaultPlus4

@Mayube name them

pxeger

and Microsoft definitely has done such things

Radvylf Programs

@Mayube Ah. I don't know much about Microsoft's history aside from the last few years.

@pxeger Yes. By making money.

SegFaultPlus4

@WheatWizard what other posts make you want to commit 11

pxeger

United States v. Microsoft Corp.

United States v. Microsoft Corporation, 253 F.3d 34 (D.C. Cir. 2001) is a noted American antitrust law case in which the U.S. government accused Microsoft of illegally maintaining its monopoly position in the personal computer (PC) market primarily through the legal and technical restrictions it put on the abilities of PC manufacturers (OEMs) and users to uninstall Internet Explorer and use other programs such as Netscape and Java. At trial, the district court ruled that Microsoft's actions constituted unlawful monopolization under Section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890, and the U.S. Court...

Radvylf Programs

2:34 PM

@pxeger That's not evil. That's annoying and anticompetitive.

pxeger

Define evil then

Radvylf Programs

Uh...actually causing serious harm to people or groups of people?

Mayube

@SegFaultPlus4 They have a long history of adopting standards from other companies and then adding proprietary features to them, forcing users to use their products. They were involved in multiple anti-trust cases for Windows' dependency on IE

PyGamer0

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Mayube

@RadvylfPrograms evil is a subjective term, because morality is subjective

SegFaultPlus4

2:36 PM

@Mayube fair enough, you named them

PyGamer0

@pxeger vim emulation in emacs /s

pxeger

lol

Wheat Wizard

Regardless github just on its own (perhaps influenced by microsoft) seems to be engaged in an attempt to make itself synonymous with git itself. Taking a great free piece of software and effectively tangle it up in their platform. This is obviously a good financial move, but I think it would be a shame and am not going to use github for that reason.

Radvylf Programs

@Mayube And I was the one who said "Microsoft hasn't done anything particularly evil to make money", not your or pxeger, so I get to decide what evil is :p

SegFaultPlus4

@RadvylfPrograms posts that make we want to become a mod and commit 11

hyper-neutrino

2:37 PM

@WheatWizard definitely have to agree with this (although TBH i still use github so... /shrug?) - when I first started doing coding stuff I thought git was just github

SegFaultPlus4

i use repl.i

t

Radvylf Programs

Amazon? Not evil, but close. Facebook? Not evil, but close. Google? Definitely not evil, but in some ways possibly. Apple or Microsoft? Not great, but nowhere close to evil.

Mayube

@RadvylfPrograms What about Nestle?

pxeger

I would list every single one of those as evil

2

PyGamer0

facebook doesnt exist

although i heard about a company called meta..

Radvylf Programs

2:39 PM

Meta is a joke, they're by all means still Facebook

SegFaultPlus4

lol

Mayube

@RadvylfPrograms So you don't consider malicious election manipulation to be evil?

PyGamer0

@pxeger cool all of them can be used for vim emulation in emacs /s

SegFaultPlus4

@RadvylfPrograms google could be a googol times more evil

Radvylf Programs

@Mayube Possibly.

Facebook's certainly not great but calling them "evil" just dilutes what "evil" is

Same with Amazon and Google

Mayube

2:41 PM

@RadvylfPrograms I'm still not really clear on your definition of "evil"

Wheat Wizard

Nah they're pretty fuckin evil.

SegFaultPlus4

we should be lucky Google don't store our personal data and make us "give" some "generous donations"

Radvylf Programs

@Mayube If people aren't dying in noticeable numbers it's not evil

pxeger

> Google don't store our personal data

they definitely do

Mayube

"actually causing serious harm to people or groups of people" just begs more definition. What constitutes "serious harm", what constitutes "causing" it

PyGamer0

2:42 PM

punches you with my Lbow

Radvylf Programs

It's a very fuzzy and useless definition, fit for a very fuzzy and useless word

SegFaultPlus4

@Mayube causing means bringing about as a direct result of your (in)action

Mayube

@RadvylfPrograms if it's already a fuzzy and useless word why do you care about it being diluted?

SegFaultPlus4

i thought that was self-explanatory

hyper-neutrino

i'd argue facebook is evil for intentionally using algorithms that are known to worsen mental health detriments of social media for profit

PyGamer0

2:43 PM

yeah

SegFaultPlus4

@hyper-neutrino fair enough

Mayube

@hyper-neutrino I'd argue amazon is evil for egregious employee abuse

SegFaultPlus4

that futs the def

@Mayube that's fair too

Radvylf Programs

Idk, mostly I don't know enough about these corporations to decide how I feel about them

PyGamer0

Feb 28 at 13:41, by PyGamer0

@Adám i hate the metaverse

SegFaultPlus4

2:44 PM

google isn't awful because they aren't getting into our PayPal accounts and donating billions to them

PyGamer0

and i hope it dies soon

Wheat Wizard

@RadvylfPrograms theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/13/…

hyper-neutrino

@Mayube yes I would personally argue that as well

but again, given that morality itself is subjective

pxeger

@RadvylfPrograms And no successful company is gonna make it easy to link its actions to some deaths, because then they'd be in concrete trouble

hyper-neutrino

and the definition of evil is subjective even within one framework of morality

pxeger

2:45 PM

Like en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestl%C3%A9_boycott#Baby_milk_controversy which indeed got Nestlé in trouble

Radvylf Programs

I mostly think that "evil" creates an arbitrary barrier, which is a harmful idea in the first place

hyper-neutrino

it's pretty useless to argue what's evil or not because it just comes down to what you define

Radvylf Programs

It lacks nuance

Mayube

@RadvylfPrograms you were the one who brought the word into the discussion

Radvylf Programs

Not in the context of companies

In the context of actions

And I said "particularly evil"

Evil, as I used it, is a scale. It's not binary.

PyGamer0

2:47 PM

~~it is ternary~~

Mayube

Welcome to society, where everything is polarized and there are 2 sides to every problem. Are you on Will Smith's side or Chris Rock's side? You can't be neutral because neutrality has no place in society. Pick a side.

Radvylf Programs

solution to most problems

PyGamer0

ok i shall be ai pfp side :p

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