The Nineteenth Byte

Catija

19:00

Non-diamond staff can't see PII and don't have access to all of the privileges - the diamond grants all privileges, even if unearned. So, for example, a diamond staff member with 1 rep can leave comments - a non-diamond staff member with only one rep can not.

(excepting on meta)

I think.

hyper-neutrino

can nondiamond staff do things like issue suspensions

caird coinheringaahing

@YaakovEllis I didn't know that SE had such influential people as Troy McClure in their userbase :P

Adám

(I so want Staff to have an iconic symbol like the diamond. Is there a Unicode staff?)

caird coinheringaahing

It was suggested that hexagons might be used in the original FR

user

Maybe a Dumbledore staff?

caird coinheringaahing

19:01

How about the Stack Exchange logo?

Catija

@hyper-neutrino No. They don't even have the UI for mod tooling.

hyper-neutrino

ah

Catija

We give every staff member an account - we're not going to give them all the trust of being able to do all the things. :D

caird coinheringaahing

What;s (roughly) the basis for whether a staff member needs a diamond?

user

@Adám Staff of Hermes: ⚚ :P

caird coinheringaahing

19:03

Part of the PubPlat/CM teams? Engagement? etc.

user

'Course, that's a useless symbol here

Adám

Maybe one of ᒉ⫯ʔɁ

Redwolf Programs

Then I'd associate staff with glottal stops :p

Catija

@cairdcoinheringaahing All CMs have diamonds. Most of the devs for pubplat have them, too. I don't know all of the specific rules, though. Usually, if you can get by without it, we don't give it to you.

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing Not in Unicode. Closest I've found is ≡

Redwolf Programs

19:07

A custom font could add any symbol, really

Catija

We're generally averse to using them, though. Slows down page loads.

user

CMM: If I stop thinking a feature request I asked for is good, should I just delete my answer, add a comment saying I don't support it, or do nothing?

Redwolf Programs

@Catija I'd imagine with just one character in it it wouldn't have too much of an impact, but I don't have much experience with that sort of stuff

user

@Adám Heh, is that from music?

caird coinheringaahing

@user I think deleting your answer is fine

user

19:08

Alright, thanks

caird coinheringaahing

If someone else supports that FR, they can post the answer themselves

Adám

@user Of course not! It is from APL.

user

Ah, didn't see that

Redwolf Programs

@Adám I thought it was from math, for 'congruent"

user

Who do you think those mathematicians got it from? :P

Adám

19:11

@RedwolfPrograms Used in APL to mean "match" or "identical to", as opposed to = which vectorises.

'abc'='aba' gives 1 1 0 but 'abc'≡'aba' gives 0.

user

@user In the dark ages before APL, mathematicians would write TEN PLUS TWO EQUALS TWELVE. Then Ken Iverson was sent to enlighten them

Adám

@user In the dark ages before APL, mathematicians would write [𝑥] or ⟦𝑥⟧ or even ]𝑥[ or ⟧𝑥⟦. Then Ken Iverson was sent to enlighten them with ⌊𝑥⌋.

user

Later shortened to ⌊x?

Adám

Yes, when Iverson's notation was linearised and regularised, so all functions became either infix or prefix, but never postfix (𝑥!) or omnifix (|𝑥|).

Joseph Walker

I used to be dumb and think that APL meant "Array Processing Language", and I assumed it was a lot like C.

Adám

19:18

@JosephWalker And what do you think APL means now?

Joseph Walker

A programming language

hyper-neutrino

yes APL is a programming language but what does it stand for (/s)

caird coinheringaahing

Clearly it stands for "The APL Programming Language" (the T is invisible) :P

Joseph Walker

stop messing with me

Adám

Some people have retroactively made APL stand for Array Programming Language, but it doesn't actually stand for anything.

Joseph Walker

19:20

According to wikipedia (the most reliable source in the universe), APL was named after the book "A Programming Language."

APL (programming language)

APL (named after the book A Programming Language) is a programming language developed in the 1960s by Kenneth E. Iverson. Its central datatype is the multidimensional array. It uses a large range of special graphic symbols to represent most functions and operators, leading to very concise code. It has been an important influence on the development of concept modeling, spreadsheets, functional programming, and computer math packages. It has also inspired several other programming languages. == History == === Mathematical notation === A mathematical notation for manipulating arrays was developed by...

Adám

@JosephWalker Yes, named after, but doesn't stand for.

Joseph Walker

Now i'm more of an idiot. wtf does it mean then???

caird coinheringaahing

Someone should make a processing tool for APL and call it "APL Processing Language" or APL for short :P

hyper-neutrino

> but it doesn't actually stand for anything.

user

Oh come on, surely you can't believe that! Who would be so unimaginative as to name their programming language "A Programming Language"?!

Adám

19:21

Indeed, the theoretical programming language described in that book, bears very little resemblance to APL.

@user Exactly. Nobody did.

user

Address programming language

The Address programming language (Russian: Адресный язык программирования Ukrainian: Адресна мова програмування) is one of the world's first high-level programming languages. It was created in 1955 by Kateryna Yushchenko. In particular, the Address programming language made possible indirect addressing and addresses of the highest rank – analogous to pointers.Unlike Fortran and ALGOL 60, APL (Address programming language) supported indirect addressing and addressing of higher ranks. Indirect addressing is a mechanism that appeared in other programming languages much later (1964 – in PL/1). The...

Adám

@JosephWalker Maybe apl.wiki/The_name_APL is a more reliable source?

user

@user This is the successor to the programming language described by Iverson, and it's what newer APL's built off of

Joseph Walker

Well it's not like theoretical programmers are the best at naming things. Example: The C programming language, The A programming language, The B programming language,

...

The D programming language

user

C makes sense because it was a successor to B, and likewise, D was a successor to C

Same with C# and C++

Joseph Walker

19:24

It's not very imaginative though is it?

caird coinheringaahing

If you had a magic wand that you could wave that would let you fix ONE thing that would help CGCC, what would you change (and why?), and what would the result look like?

4

user

Making people post in the Sandbox first

Joseph Walker

speaking of sandbox I edited my perceptron post. Any thoughts on it?

user

@JosephWalker I'll let you in on a little secret: the C programming language is actually the "Crap programming language," which I would say is a very descriptive an dcreative name

> You cannot just use brute force

That's unobservable, I'm afraid

Joseph Walker

I can get rid of that and let people do whatever they want then.

user

19:27

If you like, you can make it restricted-complexity, but disallowing entire approaches/algorithms isn't a great idea

@JosephWalker Even better!

caird coinheringaahing

You could require answers to complete within a minute for a specific input/set of inputs (and add the restricted-time tag) if you really want that

But ^^^^ is better :P

Joseph Walker

Ok, if that's it I'm, gonna do an edit and make it a question.

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing Am I dreaming‽

user

> The program should then output a list of weights, which will output the correct output 100% of the time when used with your perceptron. (suggestion)

hyper-neutrino

> not the network, not the company, but the specific site community with which you most closely identify

:D

caird coinheringaahing

19:28

@Adám Well, you don't actually get the magic wand, but it's close enough :P

Joseph Walker

ok

I edited it. Now is it fine?

caird coinheringaahing

@JosephWalker Giving it a quick once-over, it looks good. However, I'd suggest waiting a couple more days just to grab any more feedback - it's not like it needs to be urgently posted :)

Joseph Walker

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ok, sounds good. :)

Jk, I'll turn into a werewolf if it doesn't get posted right now

Jk again.

caird coinheringaahing

Oh wow, we've got some heavy CM activity on MSE today:

Please welcome two new members of the CM team: Slate and Vanny

user

I've requested making users use the Sandbox before posting challenges

Redwolf Programs

19:37

Your proposed system of requiring sandboxing seems unncessarily hacky

Just require a user's first post to be migrated from the sandbox, the whole pasting a link thing seems unnecessary and is still a ton of work for them

user

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Getting a nice tool made specifically for it is probably something they'd decline

@RedwolfPrograms How would you require that, though?

Redwolf Programs

@user It still requires a specific tool though

You'd have to change the ask page

user

Right, but not as advanced

Redwolf Programs

@user Just...don't let them post a question directly and only enable the "migrate from sandbox" feature?

hyper-neutrino

tbh codidact's custom categories would be a good fit for this site

user

19:39

But that would require implementing a "migrate from sandbox" feature

Redwolf Programs

Although I don't think that's the main issue with the sandbox, and I don't think either option be a worthwhile use of dev time

hyper-neutrino

codegolf.CD has a sandbox section

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ooh, someone from Puzzling. Maybe there's hope for features that target non-Q&A sites…

@cairdcoinheringaahing Maybe we should all collaborate on a draft answer on our meta?

Redwolf Programs

I think an officially supported way to have a sandbox is at the top of my list. Something like a sandbox.codegolf.stackexchange.com.

Having to use answers works fine, but it just feels like a workaround and with thousands and thousands of drafts it'd be really nice if there was something like a per-site-meta where sandbox drafts could be posted as questions and voting didn't affect reputation

Adám

@RedwolfPrograms Wouldn't it be better to have the sandbox built into the main site, so you couldn't actually post anywhere else than to the sandbox (unless for tips)?

caird coinheringaahing

19:48

@Adám I think this is a "if you could have anything, what would it be?" style question, so as to get ideas for future plans. Individual answers may be good and they may be bad, but they accurate represent what you want. A community answer might be a good idea, if we can agree on a single thing. If we do have one, we should also allow users to post their own ideas as well

In short, maybe? Not a bad idea, but definitely shouldn't be the only way we interact with this post

Adám

Of course. I was not intending to limit anyone, only to collaborate on make a well formulated answer, as I think many here agree on what we need.

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám Do you want to post it to our meta then? Worst case scenario is that we can't agree on a single thing :P

user

@RedwolfPrograms Something like that would be amazing, but I doubt they'd do it

Even Codidact's Sandbox doesn't seem to let you just finalize questions automatically, it seems :/

Adám

@user But TopAnswer's code golf sandboxing works really well, imo.

user

Unfortunately, not a lot of users will join a site with a UI that needs that much work :/

Doesn't look like there's much activity on TA's code golf site

Actually, the UI isn't that bad

New Posts

19:55

0

Q: What do we want?

The Community VP has asked what our community needs. I speculate that a lot of people here would tend towards the same kind of answer to that. Feel free to answer this post with suggestions to how we could formulate a community answer, and maybe we can come to a sort of consensus with a good word...

discussion

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing ^

Redwolf Programs

I suggested making vote counts visible regardless of reputation, although that's not as CGCC centric so I posted it as my own answer

caird coinheringaahing

Builtin leaderboards on CGCC

That's the biggest thing I like about Codidact over SE, and the only reason I still use the gradscript. Builtin support would be amazing

(Brownie points for figuring out which question I took the screenshots from :P)

Redwolf Programs

That reminds me, I need to finish my leaderboard userscript

A username

Wow the new mod badge is ugly

You have 53 8-byte answers :p

caird coinheringaahing

20:02

I wonder what my most common byte count is

hyper-neutrino

21

Q: Convince me Gabriel's Horn is possible

From Wikipedia, Gabriel's Horn is a particular geometric figure that has infinite surface area but finite volume. I discovered this definition in this Vsauce's video (starting at 0:22) where I took the inspiration for this problem. You begin with a cake (a cuboid) of dimension \$x \times y \times...

code-golf math geometry 3d

caird coinheringaahing

That was quick :P

hyper-neutrino

although i must admit i had an advantage here

caird coinheringaahing

?

hyper-neutrino

pabloferz answered this question with an unregistered account and then submitted an edit suggestion with another account

A username

20:04

Byte!

hyper-neutrino

i distinctly remember this because i mod messaged them instructions on how to merge their accounts if they wanted, which i don't think they ever did

searching for 8 byte answers from caird gave too many results

caird coinheringaahing

Mod abuse :P

Redwolf Programs

Fix a 10 year old security vulnerability

hyper-neutrino

so i picked a name that looked unfamiliar (and thus probably had fewer answers to look through), picked pabloferz, found no answers on their account but 3 rep, and immediately remembered who it was

and then i just had to go look for the edit suggestion which was easy because it gave them 2 rep so it shows in the other account's rep tab :P

@RedwolfPrograms did we ever determine whether or not you could actually get Announcer using this exploit? (don't see why not, but)

Adám

If I've previously upvoted a post. Is there a way for me to change my vote to a downvote?

caird coinheringaahing

20:06

Edit the post

Redwolf Programs

@hyper-neutrino No, but I'm 99.9% certain it's possible

caird coinheringaahing

If you don't mind the bump, add a <p> element to the end, then retract the vote

pxeger

I've done that before on meta

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms The only way it wouldn't be is if it was triggered by client side JS, which seems like it'd be a bad idea

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing you can use a markdown comment, 

hyper-neutrino

20:07

i usually just add or remove the trailing newline, but i also advise against doing that under normal circumstances of course

caird coinheringaahing

(or make a substantial edit if you can see the opportunity)

hyper-neutrino

i believe bumping posts to vote on them consistutes abuse but i am not certain on that so don't take my word on it

^^ is a better option

pxeger

it's probably abuse most of the time but for meta polls here I reckon it's fine, no?

caird coinheringaahing

I'd advice against doing it unless you have a real objection to your vote staying on the post

Otherwise, I think we can tolerate a little "abuse" so that someone's mind is put at ease

Just don't do it a lot and it's probably ok

> Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go jump up and down in excitement.

I haven't seen Mith so excited about an MSE announcement in a while, clearly this is very good :P

hyper-neutrino

@EkadhSingh - I'd share a screenshot, but it happened in the Teachers' Lounge... ;) — Mithical 15 secs ago

that just reminded me

i am not in TL rn and don't have the room starred? must've forgotten to rejoin it

pxeger

20:15

Your exact reaction was to pull grab a keyboard, hold shift, and press the ‘1’ key twice? Wierd... then again, this is meta :D — Ekadh Singh 14 mins ago

@hyper-neutrino wait you can star rooms?

hyper-neutrino

favorite

pxeger

how did I never know this

hyper-neutrino

lol

caird coinheringaahing

It makes it very easy to rejoin your favourite rooms when you leave :P

hyper-neutrino

is there a way to rejoin favorite rooms if you are in 0 or 2+ rooms?

i only can seem to find the option when i am in a room and not in any others

Redwolf Programs

20:18

Apparently I have this room favorited and that's it

> The last message was posted 1058 days ago.

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Don't think so :/

hyper-neutrino

i have 17 rooms favorited

caird coinheringaahing

22 here

hyper-neutrino

i wonder how many of them overlap :p

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Yes, with the Chat Improvements script

hyper-neutrino

20:19

ah

caird coinheringaahing

> rejoin starred / other rooms you're in show 1 more

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well, I say 22. I have 10 currently starred, but I have 12 frozen rooms that I will restar if/when they ever become unfrozen

Adám

Would it work too simply disallow answers to non-tips posts until they reach a certain threshold score?

hyper-neutrino

i don't think that's a good idea personally

Redwolf Programs

It doesn't fix the clutter issue

caird coinheringaahing

@Catija @YaakovEllis is Community supposed to have the mod badge? Idk why but it seems. ...off

hyper-neutrino

20:20

posts can be bad but still clear enough to not deserve closure

Adám

@RedwolfPrograms How so? There'd be no more sandbox.

caird coinheringaahing

Replacing the Sandbox with a Collective might work

Redwolf Programs

@Adám Cluttering main I mean

hyper-neutrino

the sandbox should not affect rep, but if we have a magic wand, we can just make that happen

caird coinheringaahing

The Articles system looks to be what we want: you can't answer, only comment on new questions

Redwolf Programs

20:21

@RedwolfPrograms Having a ton of drafts or low quality questions on the front page isn't great

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing ah. i have two frozen rooms starred lol

Adám

@RedwolfPrograms But we want sandboxed posts to be visible, so people will review them.

caird coinheringaahing

If we had some way of creating a separate area e.g. a subdomain where you could only post Articles, that would work as a Sandbox

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing Description?

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám let me go dig around on SO for one

Article

Having codegolf.stackexchange.com/sandbox/posts/id would work, and model them as "articles" in the code base

Redwolf Programs

20:25

Ugh there's some uncanny valley stuff going on with that formatting...it feels like I'm on codidact, the UI is just slightly different from the rest of SO

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing I see, but this would have as little visibility as the current system. We'd 1) all new challenges to go there, and 2) automated migration to main.

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám I'm just considering the way to remove the Sandbox as a single question with 8000 answers and change it to something that's scaleable, not the question on usage

Adám

Ah.

hyper-neutrino

1 billion views!!!

rak1507

damn, it actually has

Adám

20:28

@hyper-neutrino When I clicked on that, well knowing what it was, because I wanted to see it, did that still count as you Rick-rolling me?

caird coinheringaahing

The "Newest" page of MSE has so many of the staff/mod markers :P

Redwolf Programs

@Adám It's not a rickroll if you just want to go to that page

caird coinheringaahing

Up until a minute ago, it was 4 posts in a row by mods/staff :P

Redwolf Programs

lol my anti-rickroll script is making it so that I can't open that

hyper-neutrino

suffering from success

my script just makes rickroll links red, which is weird on certain sites where the default link color is red lol

Adám

20:35

@RedwolfPrograms @hyper-neutrino How does that work?

Redwolf Programs

@hyper-neutrino Mine does something really cool. It inverts the color of every link I hover, so if it stops working I can't accidentally self-rickroll or be overconfident.

Adám

How can a script detect if a URL is for a rick-roll?

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám Presumably it's a userscript that has @match https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

Redwolf Programs

I just match the rickroll string

dQw4w9WgXcQ

It's super unlikely a link will contain that and not be a 'roll

Adám

But there are many alternate videos.

Redwolf Programs

20:36

Those aren't the genuine thing though :p

An underhanded rickroll is cheating and I don't count it

@RedwolfPrograms If it's an actual rickroll link, it'll also make clicking it do nothing, obviously

hyper-neutrino

var s = document.createElement("style");
s.textContent += "a[href='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ']{color:red!important}";
s.textContent += "a[href='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub82Xb1C8os']{color:red!important}";
s.textContent += "a[href='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0']{color:red!important}";
document.head.appendChild(s);

Redwolf Programs

I just replace the prototype of as matching the rickroll link so that they don't work

var a = document.createElement("a");

a.id = "location";

document.location.href = "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ";
document.location.target = "__none";

[...document.querySelectorAll("a[href='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ']")].map(x => x.prototype = a);

(Obviously this is a simplified way to do it, I've got additional styling rules that you can apply either with a.style or document.location.style, depending on whether you want it added to the prototype or the actual links)

user

21:18

rak1507

I have seen this like 573075 times

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Very sus

Redwolf Programs

hovers over cancel stars button

user

You posted this exact thing 16 hours earlier

caird coinheringaahing

Clearly this person is copying me :P

user

21:20

Or maybe you're Shivaar...

caird coinheringaahing

Mine is clearly 100% original, and I would never steal jokes I've seen on the internet :P

user

Mwahaha I've successfully doxxed you

Catija

@cairdcoinheringaahing I mean, Community does have a diamond in general so... dunno. I'm not sure if there's a way to exempt the bot from the marker.

Redwolf Programs

I stole my joke too:

rak1507

lol

caird coinheringaahing

21:24

Shivaar is clearly just a TNB joke generator :P

Redwolf Programs

This is probably the first time I've gotten a notification for +3 rep

user

@RedwolfPrograms How'd that happen?

Redwolf Programs

Rep capped on meta, with -3 earlier in the day from downvoting and being downvoted once each

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

The Roly-Poly, Square-Wheeled Quine Code-Golf caddy Eddie Brackets was getting tired of quine challenges, which appeared to be two easy for the best golfers. He has this idea to put some oomph into things: Challenge: Write a quine of n^2 characters that prints itself as an n x n square (no whites...

Redwolf Programs

CMFRP (Chat Mini Feature Request Proposal): Adding captions to images when you upload them, so you don't have to hurry to add context

Or post "here's an image of [xyz]:" then have somebody else interrupt the monologue before you can upload the image

caird coinheringaahing

21:39

> Chat Feature Request

Good luck with that :P

Redwolf Programs

Chat is something that'd be really nice to have updated, maybe we can ~~bully the new VP into doing it~~ write an answer about it

Adám

Oh right, with a magic wand, I might to fix chat('s many issues).

Redwolf Programs

@user You used photo editing, you cheater :p

Adám

Fix the markdown, allow pasting images, fix the fonts,…

caird coinheringaahing

One problem I have with fixing chat is that it might get ruined in the process

Redwolf Programs

21:43

Chat looks surprisingly good with arial or roboto

user

@RedwolfPrograms How'd you do it?

@RedwolfPrograms That'd be amazing

Redwolf Programs

@user DOM manipulation

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes, I'd be very worried too. It seems that pretty much everything SE's techs touch, they make worse.

user

@RedwolfPrograms Ohh, you had the link to the original?

Redwolf Programs

No, I just used google :p

Adám

21:44

CMQ: Last technical SE change that was an improvement.

user

@RedwolfPrograms tbh my photo editing skills are nonexistent. I just used Paint

@Adám Starting SO :P (/s)

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám I like the staff badges, and am neutral on the mod badges, so I'll say that

Redwolf Programs

@Adám Seems like a bit of a pessimistic viewpoint

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám If that doesn't count, the review queues

user

@Adám Making questions give 10 rep? idk how long ago that was, though

Adám

21:45

@RedwolfPrograms OK, you name one!

@user That wasn't really a technical change, just a value.

Redwolf Programs

I can't think of too many recent ones, but the main problems with them have been lack of community input rather than just low quality work by the devs

caird coinheringaahing

@Adám I'd argue that SE's changes are mainly positive. However, when they make a negative change, it's often really bad

Redwolf Programs

It seems like they do a good job at what they're told to do, they're just being told to do the wrong things sometimes

Adám

Things I remember off-hand are all in bad or terrible basket: font stack, side bar, community ads, harmonising site designs,…

line hight, markdown engine, syntax highlighter switch

caird coinheringaahing

Two recent positive things I can think of: revamping + improving mod elections; changing the UI of the review queues

Adám

21:50

I didn't notice those changes.

user

Pretty sure there was a meta post and all about the review queues

Adám

Yeah, I remember, but I didn't register any actual change. I guess I don't review enough.

caird coinheringaahing

It didn't significantly change the reviewing process, but it made reviewing on mobile so much nicer

user

No one does here - we don't get too many of them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Adám

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh, my phone doesn't know how to access the anything online.

Redwolf Programs

21:55

The UI change was really nice IMO

caird coinheringaahing

22:37

@hyper-neutrino Does Community still raise flags here if more than 10 answers are posted within 7 days to a question?

Jo King

23:56

@cairdcoinheringaahing yes

caird coinheringaahing

That seems somewhat annoying

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