The Nineteenth Byte

Redwolf Programs

14:00

Well not for the laptop, for getting here quickly (and getting into the school)

You can also open the case by holding laptop just the right distance from the rotors

I hate any SQL thing that requires more than one table

StackMeter

lol

Redwolf Programs

Almost more than I hate my $1000 laptop being not work

rak1507

maybe it'll magically start working again, my phone seemed dead for like a day and then it just turned back on again

Redwolf Programs

Most likely, it's probably just some moisture somewhere

user

@RedwolfPrograms I like how your hatred of SQL pervades everything

Bubbler

14:04

@RedwolfPrograms What about self inner join? It requires only one table, but referenced twice.

Redwolf Programs

That sounds complicated and very painful

user

That sounds like a meditation thing: "Join with your inner self"

4

@RedwolfPrograms Scala: Set(0,1), since a Set's also a function

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms just use a list

Redwolf Programs

Scala is surprisingly golfy

Bubbler

select * from posts q, posts a where q.id = a.parentid; <- a prime example of self inner join, and the building block of all meaningful SEDE queries

StackMeter

14:07

or an array

Redwolf Programs

@Bubbler That works?!

StackMeter

just use a list

or an array

they were designed for this

Redwolf Programs

Does...does anyone actually know how SQL works? Or all we just markov chains trying in vain to piece together the rubble of anything sensible, crushed long ago by SQL?

user

@StackMeter In SQL?

Redwolf Programs

@StackMeter SQL doesn't have those

Funny of you to think it'd be that reasonable

user

14:09

@RedwolfPrograms No one's seen the prequel, so we can all only guess at the SQL :P

Redwolf Programs

Listen, and understand. That SQL is out there, it cant be bargained with, it can't be reasoned with, it doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear, and it absolutely will not stop...EVER, until you are dead!

user

@RedwolfPrograms I mean, SQL's probably designed the way it is to be good at whatever it's supposed to do

Redwolf Programs

Hurt people's heads?

Pretty good at that I suppose

user

I would have said looking up and rearranging stuff, but that works too :P

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms thanks, I'm good with PREQL

Bubbler

14:11

@RedwolfPrograms Serious answer: I learned the inner workings of an SQL engine during an undergraduate course

Redwolf Programs

No! I just closed a SEDE tab before I downloaded the results and lost my query D:

user

@Bubbler Does it make sense after a while, or does it still feel painful?

@RedwolfPrograms That's what you get for disrespecting SQL :P

Redwolf Programs

Bubbler has to be lying. No mortal can possibly hope to understand SQL.

user

Bubbler is no mortal

Bubbler

@user It is painful, but conceptually it's not that different from how compiler optimizations work IMO

StackMeter

14:13

just use a list

Redwolf Programs

>:|

StackMeter

it's so much easier

user

I guess that's a bit heartening

Redwolf Programs

@StackMeter If I could use a list I would

StackMeter

there's a reason pretty much every programming languages have lists

user

14:14

@StackMeter A list/table by any other name is just as painful

StackMeter

but a list has easy indexing

user

The word "list" doesn't mean much. Are you talking about JS lists specifically?

StackMeter

list[0][1]

Redwolf Programs

So does an SQL table though

We're talking about SQL here

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms why are you using a non-TC language

pxeger

14:15

@RedwolfPrograms PostgreSQL has some pretty good documentation. You can use \? or something like that in the psql for interactive help too

Redwolf Programs

@StackMeter Why do you assume I have a choice

StackMeter

that's like, the barrier to entry for a programminhg language

user

@StackMeter I'm not Redwolf, but sometimes you need a non-TC language for specific stuff (e.g. HTML and CSS before they were TC)

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms because surely you can move your tables to ANY other mainstream language

user

SEDE uses SQL (T-SQL?)

Redwolf Programs

14:16

@StackMeter I can't move Stack Exchange's tables can I?

hyper-neutrino

why not /s

Redwolf Programs

Mar 1 at 21:21, by Redwolf Programs

We could fly to SE's headquarters, then in the dead of night we break in. We pick the lock on the server room and inject a custom payload. The site goes down for a little while. Then, we sneak out through the air ducts. We fly back to our homes, and the next morning the site's magically updated. A few people wonder how, but the meta posts magically vanish. Nobody will ever know.

ninja'd :p

StackMeter

@user yes but HTML gets patches

Redwolf Programs

I use HTML for all of my databases

2

user

@StackMeter Ok?

@RedwolfPrograms Y'all'll have to be ninjas to sneak into SE headquarters

StackMeter

14:19

@user HTML is updated

whereas only pre-2010 sites use SQL

Redwolf Programs

Citation needed?

user

I don't see how what that has to with non-TC languages being unsuitable for programming-related stuff

hyper-neutrino

wait only pre-2010 sites use SQL?

what

user

Also ^^^^ and ^^

hyper-neutrino

is it 2009 right now or something

has 2020 all been a bad dream

user

14:20

I think StackMeter means that SE was made pre-2010

Wzl

@StackMeter *disagrees*

user

Feb 28 at 1:17, by caird coinheringaahing

idk the physics behind it, but time has been on some hardcore drugs for the past 18 months

s/18 months/decade

StackMeter

SQL's last update was in 2016

Redwolf Programs

Which dialect?

Wzl

s/the past 18 months/all time/

StackMeter

14:21

s/past decade/forever

@RedwolfPrograms this one

hyper-neutrino

I don't see how that's relevant though lol, even if it's not updated recently if the most recent version works just as well and hasn't been made obsolete then it's not really outdated

Wzl

^

Redwolf Programs

^

StackMeter

@hyper-neutrino yes but it's verbose

hyper-neutrino

as the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it

@StackMeter again, I don't see how that's relevant

Redwolf Programs

14:23

Pencils haven't been updated in centuries, that's why I write everything by dipping my iphone 12 into an ink well

8

Wzl

but it is broke :P

4

StackMeter

it uses unnecessary words when list[0][1] is just easier

hyper-neutrino

right but what is list in this context

user

Meh, the syntax could maybe be better, but that's not a deal-breaker

hyper-neutrino

@Wzl you have a point there :p

StackMeter

14:23

@hyper-neutrino the list is the table that you want to index into

hyper-neutrino

like sure you could restructure tables into lists

pxeger

@hyper-neutrino NoSQL like MongoDB is all the rage nowadays

NoSQL is the JavaScript of databases

hyper-neutrino

i mean i don't like writing sql myself either, that's why i use flask-sqlalchemy when making websites

user

@pxeger So...it's broken? :P

hyper-neutrino

but it's way better than just dumping everything into a massive JSON which I used to do

user

14:25

Yeah, dump everything into a massive YAML

pxeger

@user it moves too fast

Redwolf Programs

SQL sucks but trying to fix it with some simple cure like "use list indexing!" will just make it worse

user

YAML > JSON in every way

Redwolf Programs

JSON > YAML

Fight me

user

YAML has anchors and aliases

StackMeter

14:25

@RedwolfPrograms wdym

Wzl

@user it shouldn't

pxeger

@RedwolfPrograms But YAML is quite literally a superset of JSON. So YAML > JSON

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms what's a YAML or a JSON

no

user

@Wzl Why not? It makes life a LOT easier

Wzl

@pxeger which makes it worse :/

Redwolf Programs

14:26

JSON's syntax is nicer IMO

user

I'm part of a group that uses YAML to instantiate a bunch of Java objects, and it makes it a lot easier when you can copy properties from one object to another

StackMeter

you mean JSON ⊂ YAML

hyper-neutrino

I prefer to store all of my data in my brain. That way, the formatting is accessible to me and I understand it because it's all in my head already. Every time I start up the server, I just enter all of the data from memory, and each time something updates, I just need to remember it. It's a very quick and easy process.

user

@RedwolfPrograms It's too verbose - you need double quotes around all keys

Bubbler

SQL excels at combining tables and processing queries in the fastest way possible. No other languages have built-in for that

user

14:28

@StackMeter ^ Look, you have it from the immortal being's mouth

pxeger

@Bubbler I think you'll find Excel excels at being a database

hyper-neutrino

doesn't microsoft office have a thing for databases

user

Pretty sure pxeger was being sarcastic

Bubbler

Excel cannot store a billion rows.

user

@hyper-neutrino Access?

pxeger

14:28

@hyper-neutrino Access, yes. But I wouldn't call it "good" or "innocent of war crimes"

hyper-neutrino

ah, okay. never used it so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

user

I thought Access still needed actual SQL databases to connect to or smth and it was more of a frontend

pxeger

dunno, never used it either

StackMeter

@user what immortal being

I see no god up here

except myself and Python

and xnor

user

I meant Bubbler

StackMeter

14:30

xnor's up there too

Adám

@Bubbler k

user

@StackMeter God isn't immortal (source: Nietzsche :P)

Adám

@user Oh yeah, well guess who died… Nietsche!

user

@Adám I thought k still used SQL stuff

Adám

Nope, it has its own query language, Q.

user

14:32

Oh, interesting

StackMeter

@user K is good

hyper-neutrino

it seems oK to me

user

@Adám If God died and Nietzsche died, then Nietzsche is obviously God :P

Bubbler

@Adám SQL implements query optimizer under the hood. Q might qualify, though I don't think K does by itself

Redwolf Programs

Performance doesn't matter much if all of your backend developers die of SQL exposure

ngn

14:33

@Bubbler q is a thin syntactic layer on top of k

user

@RedwolfPrograms Not all of them will die - the weak ones will be rooted out, and you'll be left with reliable ones who are tolerant to SQL, because obviously it works like that :P

@hyper-neutrino oK just doesn't have the strength of shakti :P

Bubbler

@user aka natural selection, aka evolution

user

"natural"

hyper-neutrino

CMP: sequel, es-kew-ell, squill, <whatever else>?

Bubbler

esquel

Wzl

14:36

^

Does this answer your question? :P

Redwolf Programs

I pronounce it shngil

pxeger

I pronounce it "fish"

user

@hyper-neutrino "Rise, Cthulhu!"

Redwolf Programs

/ʃŋɪl/

StackMeter

@hyper-neutrino see-quel

hyper-neutrino

14:39

outta here with you and your ipa >:-(

StackMeter

@hyper-neutrino lol

user

I'd honestly think it was a golfing language without the /'s around it

StackMeter

@user yeah

pxeger

Time to make a golfing language with an IPA codepage

StackMeter

golfing languages have all the syntax

all the UNICODE

New Main Posts

14:44

0

Q: Golf the Code Golf chatroom

Given the transcript (what I mean by transcript is you can access all days of the transcript) of The Nineteenth Byte (the general chat room of code golf), output the full transcript in text form (you only have to include messages and there posters, though including other things is allowed. You ca...

code-golf

Redwolf Programs

There is a cricket in this classroom.

user

Hit it with a baseball

Wzl

Hit it with SQL

Redwolf Programs

I wouldn't wish SQL on anyone, not my worst enemy

hyper-neutrino

oh so this time you're fast NMP, when it's a challenge I closed in 37 seconds

user

14:47

I love that y'all pretend NMP is a person holding a grudge or afraid of losing its job or something :P

Redwolf Programs

Apr 22 at 16:46, by Redwolf Programs

It's just a guy posting them by hand. His name's Tim.

user

Oh, that makes sense, then.

Adám

@pxeger What is an India Pale Ale codepage?

pxeger

@Adám I think you mean the Institute for Practitioners in Advertising!

Wzl

@pxeger it already exists (though maybe not very golfy)

Adám

14:56

CMC: Shortest acronym that Wikipedia has an article or redirect for, but does not have a disambiguation page for. (Tie-breaker is ascending lexicographical order with earlier being better.)

3

pxeger

Has anyone thought of making an esolang based on ROP chains? Something designed from this point of view?

rak1507

Axa

Axa S.A. (styled as AXA) is a French multinational insurance firm. The head office is in the 8th arrondissement of Paris. It also provides investment management and other financial services.The Axa Group operates primarily in Western Europe, North America, the India Pacific region, and the Middle East, with a presence also in Africa. It is a conglomerate of independently-run businesses, operated according to the laws and regulations of many different countries. It is a component of the Euro Stoxx 50 stock market index. == History == The company was founded in 1816 as Mutuelle de L'assurance contre...

(trying random stuff)

oh, 'ad' works

Adám

> "AXA" is not an acronym

rak1507

oh

Wzl

@rak1507 also there is a disambiguation

pxeger

14:58

Are initialisms allowed?

rak1507

@Wzl :(

Adám

@rak1507 Uh.

@pxeger Initialisms form a subset of acronyms.

rak1507

ok, I don't understand how wikipedia works, I thought if you searched for something and there was a disambiguation page, it would take you there

obviously that's not how it works :/

Adám

No, not if one meaning is much more common that the others.

rak1507

Ah, ok

ngn

15:01

@Adám the empty string?

Adám

@ngn ?

Not an acronym.

ngn

@Adám it redirects to Main_Page and there's no disambiguation

@Adám ok

Wzl

@ngn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/_(disambiguation)

pxeger

@Wzl "_" != ""

ngn

@Wzl that's disambiguation for "disambiguation", not "" :)

user

15:05

QZ decomposition

pxeger

@user what do you call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QZ

ngn

there must be some single-char acronyms

user

@pxeger Oh lol

QY

rak1507

QY

QY or qy may refer to: ABC Far North, a radio station (former call letters 4QY) European Air Transport (IATA designator QY) Quay, on maps Yamaha QY10, a hand-held music workstation == See also == YQ (disambiguation)

ngn

how do we define "has a disambiguation page"?

user

15:09

@rak1507 How'd you find that? I got this

ngn

if page x redirects to y, and y mentions a few disambiguation pages but none of them contain "x", does that count?

rak1507

just stuck it in the url

user

I guess there shouldn't be a page saying "foo may refer to: ..."

pxeger

@user a difference in capitalisation

Wzl

@ngn I think so, example?

Adám

15:10

@ngn Contains {{disambiguation}} or there exists a page called <name> (disambiguation), I think.

ngn

@Wzl ㎐

pxeger

I don't think funky Unicode characters should count

Wzl

I wouldn't count ㎐ as an acronym

ngn

@pxeger now you must define funky

Adám

Exactly. It is a symbol.

rak1507

15:12

just using Hz works too

hyper-neutrino

but that has a disambiguation page

Wzl

@rak1507 ?

rak1507

ah

hyper-neutrino

though it's for HZ not Hz technically, i guess

Wzl

@Wzl or does that not count as a disambiguation page? (it doesn't end in (disambiguation)

hyper-neutrino

15:13

but the page for Hertz links to "Hz (disambiguation)" which actually points to HZ

user

DANK? Couldn't find a disambiguation page

pxeger

Surely there's a 3 character one though. I'm more doubtful about 2 chars, but 3 chars must be possible

Adám

I've got a 3-letter one.

Wzl

@user there is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dank but I don't think that counts as a disambiguation page for DANK (all caps), so I'd say this is valid

pxeger

KAV

Adám

15:16

@Wzl Such disambiguation pages often differ in capitalisation.

pxeger

@Adám I think tie break should be lowest Scrabble score, so you have to try and find one with common letters

Wzl

@pxeger *upvotes*

Adám

@pxeger Not an acronym.

pxeger

@Adám I suppose it's just a "moniker".

Adám

Right.

Wzl

15:16

@Adám Kaspersky Anti-virus (has different capitalization)

pxeger

but that doesn't have a Wikipedia redirect

Adám

@Wzl OK, but ^

I've got QPT

ngn

does it have to be on english wikipedia?

pxeger

Yes, because some wikipedias have <1000 articles

ngn

are alphabets/writing systems other than latin allowed?

Wzl

15:18

I still think Kav still counts as a valid acronym for Kaspersky Anti-virus without redirects

rak1507

I think the acronym has to redirect to the thing that it is

Adám

@ngn Good question. I think I'll say A-Z for now, to avoid trivial answers.

pxeger

@pxeger I decided to look at some small wikipedias, and I found Norfolk, an English-Tahitian creole spoken by 500 people on some tiny islands. Here are some extracts:

> Ailen esa bet a' land t' sur'round b' wata. T' biges ailen i' t' world es Griinland. Otha em ailen a':

ngn

@Adám then it's impossible to have 2letter answer

pxeger

(Translation: "An Island is a bit of land surrounded by water. The biggest island in the world is Greenland. Other islands are:")

CMC: shortest program to find a two-letter Wikipedia article with no disambiguation page

Adám

15:27

@ngn I suspected that much. But since I've found a 3'er, the hunt it on!

Wzl

Feedback please (yes this is not a rickroll or dessert this time)

user

I love the picture, but you might want to change the title to something happier such as "Reincarnation using the magic of chocolate"

Wzl

the article is about the term. That would be wikipedia vandalism :P

user

@Wzl Is the output format a multiline string or a jagged array? I don't understand the three examples at the top

Wzl

That section is meant to list possible output formats

rak1507

15:38

I feel like it would be slightly more fun if you required an ascii art format, otherwise I think everyone will use a list format

Wzl

I disagree, because it's enough of a challenge arranging the 1s

rak1507

fair enough

Wzl

but I think I'll write another challenge converting a number to an ascii-art triangle :)

like 69 -> 1000101 -> 1010001000 -> [[1], [0,1], [0,0,0], [1,0,0,0]] -> printing that as ascii-art

Redwolf Programs

15:55

who wants to guess the most common non-whitespace character in JS answers?

Razetime

opening bracket?

Redwolf Programs

Yep, (

Razetime

FIRST TRY BABYYY

Redwolf Programs

Non-whitespace digraph?

rak1507

=>

Redwolf Programs

15:57

Nope

Razetime

probably ((

rak1507

really? huh, there are at least 1 in every answer so that's surprising

Redwolf Programs

There are roughly 6000 of those total

Adám

@RedwolfPrograms ).

Redwolf Programs

Not even close, under 3k

Adám

15:59

@RedwolfPrograms ()?

rak1507

-~ or ~-?

Redwolf Programs

Nope, even less

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