The Nineteenth Byte

ASCII-only

23:15

@Neil crap I need to add that back in (although maybe for list - list)

Socratic Phoenix

How easy is JavaScript to learn? Discord bots are written in JavaScript, so I obviously must learn JavaScript...

ATaco

If you know any other language, it's easy to start. But it's difficult to master.

Socratic Phoenix

mastery is not required to make a bot, i assume

ATaco

Mastery is not required to make another language in it.

Pavel

@SocraticPhoenix Discord bots are written in whatever.

I wrote mine in C#

ATaco

23:25

Javascript is regarded by particular CS professors as one of those languages everyone should learn, regardless of if it's good.

Pavel

@ATaco I'd expect CS professors to lean more towards C/++ as a necessary language.

ATaco

They are obviously also on that list of languages someone should learn, but JS is definitely on that list too.

Socratic Phoenix

@Pavel Java?

javajavajavajava

Pavel

@SocraticPhoenix Sure, but C# is better in every way, and if you know Java you already know C#.

Socratic Phoenix

HAAAAAAAA github.com/DV8FromTheWorld/JDA

Anonymous

23:27

@Pavel Fusion of two other usernames I used to use, given as a nickname by a friend who knew me as both.

Socratic Phoenix

@Pavel Fite me Java is best (but I don't know C# so I have no right to an opinion...)

Pavel

Ah

ATaco

There's a Lua Module for the Discord Bot API. Shame it's for LuaJIT, but it's there.

Anonymous

@SocraticPhoenix Quite a few Discord bots are written in Python

Socratic Phoenix

@Mego ooh I sorta know Python...

ATaco

23:28

Python is another language everyone should learn.

Pavel

@SocraticPhoenix Basically, C# started as a Java clone, but then they kept adding features to make it awesome and the Java people didn't do that so much.

Socratic Phoenix

I know I'm going to learn C/C++ in college because I wanna do compilers and stuff

Pavel

A discord bot would require a lot of networking-related calls, and C# is the only language with sane async syntax.

Socratic Phoenix

@Pavel u say that but have u used every language? (though java is just plain strange when it comes to threading synchronized and atomic and volatile and all that stuff I don't get).

ATaco

C# is a pretty great language.

Socratic Phoenix

23:32

I know 9 programming languages, Python, Java, and the 7 I made myself xD

Pavel

//C# Async
async Task<int> foo() { return 5; }
var bar = foo();
Console.WriteLine(await bar);

Oh right, var allows you to omit the type of a variable if the compiler can determin it.

Threading in general is so much simpler.

MD XF

What is the difference between Groovy and Java?

Pavel

@MDXF Slightly different syntax, more expanisve stdlib, some additional features.

MD XF

@Pavel Syntax differences?

Pavel

I recommend Kotlin over Groovy, it aims to do the same thing, but does it better.

@MDXF Slightly. int[] array = [1,2,3]

Socratic Phoenix

23:36

also kotlin can target jvm, javascript, or native, and has official android support

MD XF

@Pavel Ah I see

@SocraticPhoenix Yeah Kotlin also has awesome operator overloading

Socratic Phoenix

@MDXF I really should learn kotlin

Pavel

@SocraticPhoenix Or abandon the JVM entirely and use C#.

MD XF

@SocraticPhoenix If you know Java that won't be hard

Socratic Phoenix

@MDXF I know some much Java that I understand how terrible it is, but still love it.... basically the point of no return

@Pavel But I know JVM Bytecode... I dunno assembly... and if I want (to make) a compiled language...

Pavel

23:38

@SocraticPhoenix You don't need assembly to use C#

Socratic Phoenix

meh

Pavel

You don't need to know JVM Bytecode to use java either, for that matter.

MD XF

@SocraticPhoenix Yeah that's me with C, it takes forever to program things that would be simple in other languages, yet I love it's low-level-ness and ... everything else

Socratic Phoenix

I'll probably be forced to learn it eventually

MD XF

Except memory management >.<

Socratic Phoenix

23:39

^ why i don't want to learn C/C++

MD XF

It's not that bad once you get used to it. But finding memory leaks is insanely difficult sometimes, even with valgrind.

Pavel

63

Q: Differences between MSIL and Java bytecode?

I'm new to .Net and I'm trying to understand the basics first. What is the difference between MSIL and Java bytecode?

Socratic Phoenix

But I have never done memory management...

Pavel

(.NET bytecode is called MSIL)

ATaco

@SocraticPhoenix It's less confusing than you think.

Socratic Phoenix

23:41

@ATaco I assume so... I went into designing a practical programming language with a similar mindset (how does anything work), and came out with a functioning thingy... Thing is, I have to be forced to switch languages because otherwise I just do it the way I know how...

MD XF

@SocraticPhoenix The key to memory management is: not malloc(size), but malloc(size * sizeof(variable type goes here)).

3

Socratic Phoenix

Only reason I learned python is because I had an internship in python...

despite saying that I wanted to learn python for at least 2 years before that...

ATaco

@MDXF Or just calloc(size, sizeof(variable type goes here))

MD XF

._. how did I never know that

I've even written my own implementation of calloc and I didn't know that

Socratic Phoenix

@MDXF You've been trolled by memory allocation! How does it feel?

MD XF

23:43

>_>

ATaco

It's basically just #define calloc(a,b) malloc((a)*(b))

Pavel

TIL that The Common Language Runtime (C#'s VM) supports global functions and tail call optimization, though no CLR language actually uses these features.

MSIL is designed to be human writeable/readable, so it's possible write a function that uses tail-call optimization in it and then call it from C#.

ASCII-only

@MDXF not if you do it properly

MD XF

Define "properly"

ASCII-only

@Pavel :| such a waste

@MDXF remembering to put in all your frees

Pavel

23:50

@ASCII-only why? This means C# could easily support these features in the future.

MD XF

@ASCII-only No, memory leaks as in printf("%p",pointer); causing a segmentation fault.

ASCII-only

Or just using C++ and having no memory management

Socratic Phoenix

@Pavel A waste because no one uses them...

ASCII-only

@MDXF also not doing things like that

MD XF

Wait, is groovy interpreted?!?

@ASCII-only >.<

ASCII-only

23:51

@MDXF it's JVM...

Socratic Phoenix

^

Pavel

@SocraticPhoenix BRB writing .net language to use them.

MD XF

Yeah but it doesn't have (or maybe it doesn't need) a main

Socratic Phoenix

@Pavel lol, really?

MD XF

no

Socratic Phoenix

23:51

@MDXF who needs main tho

MD XF

it's a TNB joke

@SocraticPhoenix compiled languages :P

ASCII-only

@Pavel just make a Roslyn extension...

Socratic Phoenix

I wanna make a compiled language -_-

Pavel

@MDXF the stuff not in a method is packed into a main by the compiler.

ATaco

My favourite all time bug, "Why is this pointer NULL?", followed by "Why is this pointer 0xBAADF00D"

MD XF

23:51

@Pavel Ah I see

Pavel

@ASCII-only sure

MD XF

Bitwise does that

except it's interpreted ._.

ASCII-only

@MDXF luckily VSL is an exception

Neil

@ASCII-only well, as I said before, some sort of filtering would be nice

MD XF

Odd

ASCII-only

23:52

@Neil oh yeah forgot about that >_> sorry

Neil

so that I can write Filter([1, 2, 3], Minus(i, 1)) for a similar result

Pavel

@SocraticPhoenix yes, actually. I've been working on it for a few weeks, it's called Safire due to the ruby-like syntax

Socratic Phoenix

The only problem I have with python is how u run a script... if __name__() == "__main__" or whatever it is is evil

@Pavel kewl

Neil

(obviously in reality the list and function wouldn't be hardcoded like that)

Pavel

@SocraticPhoenix It's also dynamically typed. I am going through extreme amounts of pain in order to make var foo = Console.WriteLine work, since methods and Delegates (lambdas) can't be assigned to variables of type dynamic without a ton of magic.

And it's the worst kind of magic, reflection magic. stackoverflow.com/a/46782035/3553138

At least the CLR supports a dynamic type, JVM doesn't iirc.

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