The Nineteenth Byte

dzaima

19:00

shouldn't this be deleted as it's been posted?

ckjbgames

@Zacharý it's ok :)

Step Hen

@dzaima Edit a link to the post into it and delete it, while it's still fresh, good catch

ckjbgames

@dzaima I don't know. It should auto-delete after it has been inactive for a bit.

Zacharý

Can someone tell me why a file whould be named ho.fss?

Step Hen

@ckjbgames No way Jose, Sandbox posts don't autodelete

ckjbgames

19:02

@StepHen Mine was deleted eventually. IDK what it was.

dzaima

probably someone else deleted it

Erik the Outgolfer

they're called mods...

Step Hen

^^

dzaima

thought so

Erik the Outgolfer

and no they're not there to serve your laziness

Step Hen

19:03

@dzaima usually a comment on it will do the trick

dzaima

@StepHen yep, commenting

Step Hen

(although I like to leave mine up for a bit if I linked to it on main comments, but this guy didn't)

Erik the Outgolfer

@dzaima oh no you got ninja'd

dzaima

yep

Erik the Outgolfer

now just leave it alone...

Step Hen

19:05

@dzaima oh no he stole your comment karma

Erik the Outgolfer

you don't get karma from comments

or reputation as we call it :P

Step Hen

@EriktheOutgolfer that's the point

Anyone happen to know, can a JavaScript function know if it was called by f(undefined) or f()

trichoplax

I don't know how but I believe if you hunt around you'll find a way.

You can definitely distinguish between undefined and undeclared variables

Step Hen

@trichoplax Found it, arguments.length

trichoplax

And I think you might be able to access a list of the calling arguments - oh you got it already :)

Step Hen

19:10

@trichoplax Thanks though :)

trichoplax

You're welcome. I'm learning about JavaScript recently for a project I'm working on and it seems unreasonably flexible - I hadn't realised how much it was capable of

Step Hen

@trichoplax unreasonably flexible - you've seen JSF***, right?

trichoplax

Yes - although that wouldn't be quite as practical for this particular project :P

Zacharý

C has macros -- JS has type-weirdness.

Step Hen

@trichoplax No, but I don't think many of language would let you convert false to string, then get letters from that string, and build a function with them, and then call that function, the way JS does

trichoplax

19:15

JS is beautiful. A weird kind of beautiful, but beautiful nonetheless

Christopher

@Dennis Haha XD that is solid gold. 10/10. That is just amazing

I like how my "code" does not error

Zacharý

false => "false" makes some sense. []+[]

Christopher

ALso what does magic even do?

Zacharý

magic.

Christopher

@Zacharý Talking about jelly here

tio.run/##y0rNyan8/z83MT0z@f///wY6CsjIUEfBSEfBGAA

Zacharý

19:18

I know ... I saw that.

Christopher

Sheesh some of us are not on TNB non stop XD

@Dennis You want to make jelly next level golf language? It would be hard but you would end up with over 6k builtin slots...

Change the encoding from binary to ternary...

I am trying to figure the logistics of that change

DJMcMayhem

...

Phoenix

4

DJMcMayhem

You don't understand how encoding works

2

Christopher

@DJMcMayhem I think I used wrong word.

tunguska.sourceforge.net

Someone made ternary VM

Zacharý

19:22

Scores are measured in bytes ...

DJMcMayhem

But we still measure submissions in binary bytes, so it doesn't matter

Christopher

Wattt.

But noooo.

Gerrgahherpa

Zacharý

More builtins = using the hooked characters.

Christopher

brb loophole huntint

DJMcMayhem

Or in other words, it's impossible to store 3^8 distinct values in a byte because a byte already holds 256 distinct values.

Mr. Xcoder

19:24

@Zacharý unless you're Mathematica

Downgoat

@Christopher I am having trouble extracting semantic meaning from this sentence, can you please clarify >___<

Zacharý

The best way to get more builtins is to use fractional bytes at end of files.

Mr. Xcoder

@Christopher I think you meant "hunting"

Christopher

@Downgoat Well encoding is wronng word

@Downgoat basically run jelly on a ternary base not binary base

I think it may work to be a loophole on what bytes are

DJMcMayhem

A byte is a sequence of 8 bits.

Zacharý

19:26

How are fractional bytes treated?

DJMcMayhem

What possible ambiguity could that have?

Christopher

But how does one convert from Tryte to byte?

Zacharý

Convert entire thing from base 3 to base 2.

DJMcMayhem

@Christopher Here's a more practical question. What byte gets stored on your hard drive when you save a ternary-jelly program that consists of this one character: £ (currently 0x02 in Jelly's encoding)

Would it be 00000002?

Zacharý

Is there a meta post on fractional byte counts?

Christopher

19:29

@DJMcMayhem but the point is. I would be using a ternary computer

DJMcMayhem

OK, but the rest of PPCG isn't. So how do you translate your submission into bytes so that the rest of us can see what your program is? Because bytes are the standard

2

Q: How to count bytes in 7 (and other languages that use fractional numbers of bytes)

(See also this question, which is similar, but talks about the situation where the language is normally stored on disk with one command per byte.) This question originally came up in connection with 7, but might be relevant to other languages. In 7, each command is only three bits long (it only...

Not to mention the fact that ternary computers don't exist currently

Zacharý

I think there's a few very old ones. And balanced binary (-1 0 1)

GTG

Step Hen

@Christopher Just store it as bits, then round up to the nearest multiple of 8

Christopher

@DJMcMayhem But VM :P

PhiNotPi

The most logical way would be bytecount = trytecount * log(3)/log(2).

Christopher

19:31

@StepHen sigh The point was to avoid bits

CalculatorFeline

It can't be done.

DJMcMayhem

@Christopher I saw that. It really looks unfinished. (and FWIW, their definition of Trytes uses 6 Trits, giving 729 distinct bytes, not 6000-some)

Christopher

@DJMcMayhem Huh interesting

Step Hen

@Christopher OK then, convert it to binary from ternary, then round the length up

@Christopher If you just convert number systems there's no argument about memory loss or anything, it's the same about of data stored, right?

PhiNotPi

If a tryte is 6 trits, then I think it becomes log(3^6)/log(2^8)

DJMcMayhem

19:34

But the bigger problem you're ignoring is that you can't submit an answer in trytes and pretend you've got a fair comparison to bytes. And even if you could, have fun getting Python to work on the ternary VM. Or re-writing super Jelly in ternary assembly or whatever

Step Hen

What's wrong with doing it in quarter bytes (2 bits)? You get one more command

CalculatorFeline

Umm what?

Christopher

@DJMcMayhem Who said code-golf was fair?

But I know what you mean

Also super jelly in ternary assembly sounds great

Step Hen

@CalculatorFeline Have your interpreter split the bitstream into sections of 2s instead of sections of 8s

And then parse that

CalculatorFeline

Now you have 4 commands :/

Christopher

19:36

Somebody kill me pls.

totallyhuman

no

Step Hen

That's what I said ^^ You get one more command

CalculatorFeline

What's your address? Need to know so I can tell the assassins.

totallyhuman

42 yellow brick road

Dennis

19:53

@Christopher 6k built-in slots with how many (fractional) bytes per built-in?

HyperNeutrino

30

Q: Goodbye Cruel World!

Background Hello golfers! I would like to learn all the programming languages! But I kinda have a short attention span... and copying all the Hello World examples gets boring... but I like fire! ^w^ Challenge So here is the plan! I want you all to write the smallest code that will compile, pr...

code-challenge hello-world

?

:P

@EriktheOutgolfer Congrats on your gold code-golf tag badge! :)

And you too @Adám :P

Adám

@HyperNeutrino thanks.

HyperNeutrino

@Christopher You were asking what magic did in Jelly?

totallyhuman

hey other than 42 what kinda easter egg numbers are there

HyperNeutrino

666

~~444~~

totallyhuman

19:59

:P

HyperNeutrino

(that's crossed-out btw :P)

444 == ~~444~~

It's slightly different, but not enough that you'd be able to tell the difference.

Well, let's take a look at magic. The m means modular which takes every yth element of the list x, so for [0, 1, 2, 3], 2, this would give [0, 2].

Since there is only one argument in your example, it gives [x]m[k] for each k in x.

So [0, 1, 2, 3] would become [[0, 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1, 0], [0, 1, 2, 3], [0, 2], [0, 3]]

m0 means append the reverse because it doesn't make sense to take every 0th element, so it's overloaded.

I'm not exactly sure how ma chains together, but since ma is different from mµa, I assume that it is not doing the above task and then Logical-ANDing with the original list.

@Dennis How does [dyad][dyad] chain together on a single argument?

totallyhuman

see, even jelly programmers are confused about it

Dennis

Each dyad is called with the previous return value and the link's argument.

totallyhuman

no wonder I wasn't able to understand how it would chain :P

HyperNeutrino

I'm not an experienced Jelly programmer :P

DJMcMayhem

20:05

I think it's dyad2(dyad1(a), a)

HyperNeutrino

@Dennis Wait I'm stupid I should be using mða.

Okay so that makes sense, thanks.

totallyhuman

you've been learning for 2 months :P

HyperNeutrino

So since ma appears to do the same thing as mða, and because Dennis says so, it first takes the modular and then does Logical AND with the original argument.

CalculatorFeline

What does magic do?

HyperNeutrino

@totallyhuman That's not long considering it's Jelly :P

DJMcMayhem

20:06

So +* given two is exp(sum(2, 2), 2) or exp(4, 2) or 16

HyperNeutrino

@CalculatorFeline That's what I'm currently figuring out.

@DJMcMayhem Oh okay thanks.

CalculatorFeline

Good to know.

w.

totallyhuman

there's editing, you know that right?

:P

DJMcMayhem

But *+ given two is sum(exp(2, 2), 2) which is sum(4, 2) which is 6 (I think, I haven't tried it)

HyperNeutrino

@totallyhuman Too late :P

@DJMcMayhem Yes it does that.

DJMcMayhem

20:07

Yay, I got something in Jelly right without running it!

That's a great feeling

One I'm not familiar with

CalculatorFeline

@HyperNeutrino ... ^^^^^^^^^^

HyperNeutrino

oh

Yay you can mentally do 2**2+2! :D (xD ;P)

DJMcMayhem

@Dennis So for the first dyad, that is the argument, and then for each subsequent dyad, it's the result of the last chain?

totallyhuman

wait why are your emoticons in a cage

HyperNeutrino

Ok, so ma on [0, 1, 2, 3] is a(m([0, 1, 2, 3], [0, 1, 2, 3]), [0, 1, 2, 3])

Which is a([[0, 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1, 0], [0, 1, 2, 3], [0, 2], [0, 3]], [0, 1, 2, 3])

now the question is how does logical and work for lists o0

Oh it vectorizes k

So it's left if not left else right in Python, as one would expect.

And if one list is longer than the other, it just does AND on the first part that overlaps and keeps the elements unmodified on the other side.

Dennis

20:11

@DJMcMayhem Yes. For dyads fgh and argument x, it computes h(g(f(x, x), x), x).

HyperNeutrino

For a([x,y,z],k) where x,y,z,k are all lists, it gives [x&k, y&k, z&k], vectorizing each list as I stated above.

So a([[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,2],[0,3]],[0,1,2,3]) gives [[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0]a[0,1,2,3], [0,1,2,3]a[0,1,2,3], [0,2]a[0,1,2,3], [0,3]a[0,1,2,3]]).

Which is [[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]]

totallyhuman

question: why is _ subtraction and why does - do nothing apparently in jelly

HyperNeutrino

@totallyhuman - is a literal.

Or -<number>

It's convenient that the overlapping sections all have the 0s lined up.

g is GCD/HCF/GCF/HCD.

It's also a dyad, so that gives g(a(m(x,x),x),x).

Following our above example, that's g([[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]],[0,1,2,3])

GCD also vectorizes on lists, skipping non-overlapping sections of the list.

So that becomes [[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0]g[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]g[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]g[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]g‌[0,1,2,3]]

All parts that overlap are in the form {x}g{x} which is nice.

It gives the same thing right back.

tio.run/##y0rNyan8/z83Mf3///8GOoY6RjrGAA

What's with the Nyan part that keeps showing up?

totallyhuman

o0 jelly's nuts

@HyperNeutrino jelly is powered by the nyan cat

HyperNeutrino

i is index.

@totallyhuman Seems legit 10/10

So magi gives i([[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]],[0,1,2,3]).

This doesn't vectorize (because that wouldn't make sense), at least not on the left side.

It doesn't seem to on the right side either.

[[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]]i[0,1,2,3] gives 2 because the first occurrence of [0,1,2,3] is at index 2.

c is xCy.

So this becomes 2c[0,1,2,3].

That's [1, 2, 1, 0].

Because it vectorizes.

So magic on a list gives the number of ways to choose x elements from a elements for each a in the list, where x is the first occurrence of the list in y, where y is a list of lists where each inner list contains the GCD values of each element in the sublist of z and each element in the original list, where z is a list of lists where each list is every kth element of the original list for each k in the original list.

@Christopher @CalculatorFeline ^^^

I would have appended the pings to the message but that made it too long... heh

CalculatorFeline

20:25

Um k

HyperNeutrino

Wait I messed up darnit.

It's the number of ways to choose a elements from x elements for each a in the list, ...

I wonder what magic does for numbers...

totallyhuman

oook

HyperNeutrino

OK so {x}m{x} gives [x].

Unless x is 0. Then it gives [0, 0].

a gives logical AND, which doesn't change anything for numbers.

g gives GCD, which also doesn't change anything.

i gives index which always returns 1.

And then c is choose which gives 1 for 0, 1 and 0 for anything else.

Hey @Dennis I found a way to check if a number is 0 or 1 in Jelly.

(also magic breaks on decimal input)

totallyhuman

congratulations! you won the game!

CalculatorFeline

Of course you could also use square+equal, but where's the fun in that?

LegionMammal978

20:35

You know, I'm convinced that walking against the arrows in an IKEA will reverse the very flow of time

4

CalculatorFeline

Can you do about 12 years?

HyperNeutrino

Well I have to go now. I'm surprised I didn't get ratelimited for posting like 500 messages trying to figure out a simple Jelly program :P

o/

CalculatorFeline

bye

totallyhuman

bye

Christopher

@HyperNeutrino wow coolio

@Dennis Hmm let me figure that math

Well it varies

It ranges from 9/8 to 13/8 bytes

1.125 to 1.625 bytes

But my math may be wrong

totallyhuman

20:55

@Christopher well then

Step Hen

@feersum are you ever going to cash in on the combined 1000 rep bounties offered in the comments to this?

6

Christopher

21:24

@feersum Are you going to tell me how you did that?

Step Hen

@Christopher In case you didn't notice, that's what I just asked. Along with the people offering bounties in the comments... from last year.

HyperNeutrino

@Christopher ... not chat appropriate?

Zacharý

@Christopher Should this be flagged?

HyperNeutrino

@Zacharý I was wondering the same thing and I'm considering it.

Not sure if it's that bad though... seems quite bad IMO.

Like swearing is one thing, but this is... different... idk

Zacharý

It should've said "Java sucks"

HyperNeutrino

21:34

Well gtg now. o/

Step Hen

@Zacharý Except that it was made for the deep dark interwebs and not for a programming community :P

Catija

Why are you flagging that image? What is wrong with it?

Zacharý

Wait until the very end.

Catija

That is exactly the sort of thing you need to use a custom flag for.

Right now it looks like a GIF... If we don't know that you need to watch the entire thing to see the "bad" content, it's difficult for you to get it removed.

bwDraco

Can you please not try to sneak offensive content under the radar?

CalculatorFeline

21:38

Huh?

mınxomaτ

@PhiNotPi So as far as I can see, the 16qubit quantum computer is now available. It seems I haven't got accepted. Did you?

Step Hen

@bwDraco I was going to do that, but then I realized I would be posting it too

bwDraco

(marginally NSFW)

Can't stay here for too long.

Catija

@CalculatorFeline There are two kinds of chat flags... one is just spam/offensive the other is a custom moderator flag and it has a place for you to explain why you've flagged the item. This is the perfect use case for that latter flag type.

Christopher

Crap. That was the err wrong URL

Catija

21:45

I can just clean that up for you, then.

Christopher

:D thanks

Zacharý

Then ... what was the correct URL?

totallyhuman

shh we don't talk about the correct url

Zacharý

...

caird coinheringaahing

Its weird seeing Dennis with normal rep

Zacharý

21:58

Yes ... very weird.

@Denis, if you exist, COME FORTH!

caird coinheringaahing

@Zacharý only works if Denis has been to TNB before

totallyhuman

here

Wheat Wizard

Hey guys this meta has gone unanswered for 3 months, with only 30 views. Since I can't bounty it I thought I would share it in chat.

1

Q: Mixed input output methods in Brain-Flak and Stack based languages

It seems to be the consensus that it is acceptable in Brain-Flak to decompose a list into a series of arguments when taking input. For example if you are to take the list [2,5,6] as input you may run the following Brain-Flak ruby brain_flak.rb file 2 5 6 The same is also true of output, if yo...

discussion

caird coinheringaahing

If it hasn't got a lot of attention, maybe it isn't as issue and you can do what you normally do?

Wheat Wizard

I don't know what to do. thats why I asked the question

caird coinheringaahing

22:04

just do what you want and if someone questions that, point them to that post.

Zacharý

Aren't you going to change your name again @WheatWizard ?

Wheat Wizard

@Zacharý Why would I?

Zacharý

It seems every time I see you on here, you've got a new grain-themed name.

totallyhuman

stack.push(stack.pop(stack.pop()))

one of the best lines of code i've written

caird coinheringaahing

@totallyhuman why?

Wheat Wizard

22:08

@totallyhuman Why does .pop take an argument o_O

caird coinheringaahing

its not even golfed

totallyhuman

@cairdcoinheringaahing it's not supposed to be

caird coinheringaahing

@WheatWizard the index to pop

totallyhuman

^

Zacharý

@WheatWizard Removes the item at that position, then returns it.

Ninja'd

totallyhuman

22:09

'•': # move nth item to the top
lambda stacks, stk_no, stack: stack.push(stack.pop(stack.pop()))

Christopher

@Zacharý I don't remember

caird coinheringaahing

@totallyhuman this is code golf! You can remove 12 bytes by changing stack to s

totallyhuman

@cairdcoinheringaahing it's not for code golf

why would there be comments :P

caird coinheringaahing

New language?

Zacharý

That gives me an idea ... a golfed interpreter to a golf-lang.

caird coinheringaahing

22:11

I hate my phone! It never sends messages the first time on chat! O_O

> Golf your code, not your interpreters - Dennis, talk.tryitonline.net

Zacharý

(along with the non-golfed version, obviously)

dzaima

what about making a golfing language in a golfing language?

totallyhuman

i'd assume it'd be a pain to write those many lines of code both golfed and ungolfed

caird coinheringaahing

@dzaima I made a BF variant in BF

F'ed my B really bad

Zacharý

If it's just a transpile, then it's easy as hell!

caird coinheringaahing

22:14

@Zacharý assuming the interpreting language has an eval function

Zacharý

Yeah ...

Or if the language being interpreted is stack-based-no-syntax (like MY)

totallyhuman

new question alert!

Zacharý

Okay .... what is it ....

Wheat Wizard

nmp will get it.

totallyhuman

i will leave that up to NMP

Zacharý

22:22

Meta or Main?

totallyhuman

unlike others i prefer not to steal NMP's job

main

inb4 one answer finds a nice math formula and every other answer follows

Zacharý

By math ... it's OEIS mostly.

Wheat Wizard

@totallyhuman T(n+1, k) = T(n, k-1) + T(n, k) + T(n, k+1) + T(n-1, k)

New Main Posts

2

Q: Pascal's Rhombus

Pascal's Rhombus (which is actually a triangle) is obtained by adding in the pattern: * *** x instead of * * x This means that each cell is the sum of the three cells on the row directly above it and one cell on the row 2 above it. Just like Pascal's triangle the zeroth row has a si...

code-golf number

Wheat Wizard

:P

totallyhuman

22:24

that... wut

that will keep recursing, right?

Mendeleev

@totallyhuman ffs

totallyhuman

@Mendeleev ?

Wheat Wizard

Thats the definition. You can just make the base case T(n<1,k)=0

totallyhuman

oh

can you give some test cases?

Zacharý

NVM, Oasis only deals with one input, right?

chirp

Wheat Wizard

22:37

yes

Zacharý

Dang it.

Downgoat

> Passwords must contain only letters, numbers, and !@#$%^&*

Wtaf

Nathan Merrill

if you are going to gzip your webpages, is there any reason to not just pick utf-32 instead of utf-8?

212

Q: Why would you not permit Q or Z in passwords?

Jetblue's password requirements specify that, among other stringent requirements: Cannot contain a Q or Z I can't fathom a logical reason for this, unless it were say, extremely common for the left side of keyboards to break, but then you wouldn't allow 'A' either :) What would be the reas...

passwords password-policy

totallyhuman

22:55

question: what does f(x + 1) mean

in terms of math

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Riffle shuffle a string - Cops and Robbers A [riffle shuffle] is a way of shuffling cards where the deck is split into 2 roughly equal sections and the sections are ruffled into each other in small groups. This is how to ruffle shuffle a string. Split the string into equal sections. Starting fr...

trichoplax

@totallyhuman Unclear what you're asking

Zacharý

@totallyhuman The function f applied to the argument x+1. Or, if f is a number, f times x+1

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