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7:00 PM
shouldn't this be deleted as it's been posted?
 
@Zacharý it's ok :)
 
@dzaima Edit a link to the post into it and delete it, while it's still fresh, good catch
 
@dzaima I don't know. It should auto-delete after it has been inactive for a bit.
 
Can someone tell me why a file whould be named ho.fss?
 
@ckjbgames No way Jose, Sandbox posts don't autodelete
 
7:02 PM
@StepHen Mine was deleted eventually. IDK what it was.
 
probably someone else deleted it
 
they're called mods...
 
^^
 
thought so
 
and no they're not there to serve your laziness
 
7:03 PM
@dzaima usually a comment on it will do the trick
 
@StepHen yep, commenting
 
(although I like to leave mine up for a bit if I linked to it on main comments, but this guy didn't)
 
@dzaima oh no you got ninja'd
 
yep
 
now just leave it alone...
 
7:05 PM
@dzaima oh no he stole your comment karma
 
you don't get karma from comments
or reputation as we call it :P
 
@EriktheOutgolfer that's the point
Anyone happen to know, can a JavaScript function know if it was called by f(undefined) or f()
 
I don't know how but I believe if you hunt around you'll find a way.
You can definitely distinguish between undefined and undeclared variables
 
@trichoplax Found it, arguments.length
 
And I think you might be able to access a list of the calling arguments - oh you got it already :)
 
7:10 PM
@trichoplax Thanks though :)
 
You're welcome. I'm learning about JavaScript recently for a project I'm working on and it seems unreasonably flexible - I hadn't realised how much it was capable of
 
@trichoplax unreasonably flexible - you've seen JSF***, right?
 
Yes - although that wouldn't be quite as practical for this particular project :P
 
C has macros -- JS has type-weirdness.
 
@trichoplax No, but I don't think many of language would let you convert false to string, then get letters from that string, and build a function with them, and then call that function, the way JS does
 
7:15 PM
JS is beautiful. A weird kind of beautiful, but beautiful nonetheless
 
@Dennis Haha XD that is solid gold. 10/10. That is just amazing
I like how my "code" does not error
 
false => "false" makes some sense. []+[]
 
ALso what does magic even do?
 
magic.
 
7:18 PM
I know ... I saw that.
 
Sheesh some of us are not on TNB non stop XD
@Dennis You want to make jelly next level golf language? It would be hard but you would end up with over 6k builtin slots...
Change the encoding from binary to ternary...
I am trying to figure the logistics of that change
 
...
 
user image
4
 
You don't understand how encoding works
2
 
@DJMcMayhem I think I used wrong word.
Someone made ternary VM
 
7:22 PM
Scores are measured in bytes ...
 
But we still measure submissions in binary bytes, so it doesn't matter
 
Wattt.
But noooo.
Gerrgahherpa
 
More builtins = using the hooked characters.
 
brb loophole huntint
 
Or in other words, it's impossible to store 3^8 distinct values in a byte because a byte already holds 256 distinct values.
 
7:24 PM
@Zacharý unless you're Mathematica
 
@Christopher I am having trouble extracting semantic meaning from this sentence, can you please clarify >___<
 
The best way to get more builtins is to use fractional bytes at end of files.
 
@Christopher I think you meant "hunting"
 
@Downgoat Well encoding is wronng word
@Downgoat basically run jelly on a ternary base not binary base
I think it may work to be a loophole on what bytes are
 
A byte is a sequence of 8 bits.
 
7:26 PM
How are fractional bytes treated?
 
What possible ambiguity could that have?
 
But how does one convert from Tryte to byte?
 
Convert entire thing from base 3 to base 2.
 
@Christopher Here's a more practical question. What byte gets stored on your hard drive when you save a ternary-jelly program that consists of this one character: £ (currently 0x02 in Jelly's encoding)
Would it be 00000002?
 
Is there a meta post on fractional byte counts?
 
7:29 PM
@DJMcMayhem but the point is. I would be using a ternary computer
 
OK, but the rest of PPCG isn't. So how do you translate your submission into bytes so that the rest of us can see what your program is? Because bytes are the standard
2
Q: How to count bytes in 7 (and other languages that use fractional numbers of bytes)

user62131(See also this question, which is similar, but talks about the situation where the language is normally stored on disk with one command per byte.) This question originally came up in connection with 7, but might be relevant to other languages. In 7, each command is only three bits long (it only...

Not to mention the fact that ternary computers don't exist currently
 
I think there's a few very old ones. And balanced binary (-1 0 1)
GTG
 
@Christopher Just store it as bits, then round up to the nearest multiple of 8
 
@DJMcMayhem But VM :P
 
The most logical way would be bytecount = trytecount * log(3)/log(2).
 
7:31 PM
@StepHen sigh The point was to avoid bits
 
It can't be done.
 
@Christopher I saw that. It really looks unfinished. (and FWIW, their definition of Trytes uses 6 Trits, giving 729 distinct bytes, not 6000-some)
 
@DJMcMayhem Huh interesting
 
@Christopher OK then, convert it to binary from ternary, then round the length up
@Christopher If you just convert number systems there's no argument about memory loss or anything, it's the same about of data stored, right?
 
If a tryte is 6 trits, then I think it becomes log(3^6)/log(2^8)
 
7:34 PM
But the bigger problem you're ignoring is that you can't submit an answer in trytes and pretend you've got a fair comparison to bytes. And even if you could, have fun getting Python to work on the ternary VM. Or re-writing super Jelly in ternary assembly or whatever
 
What's wrong with doing it in quarter bytes (2 bits)? You get one more command
 
Umm what?
 
@DJMcMayhem Who said code-golf was fair?
But I know what you mean
Also super jelly in ternary assembly sounds great
 
@CalculatorFeline Have your interpreter split the bitstream into sections of 2s instead of sections of 8s
And then parse that
 
Now you have 4 commands :/
 
7:36 PM
Somebody kill me pls.
 
That's what I said ^^ You get one more command
 
What's your address? Need to know so I can tell the assassins.
 
42 yellow brick road
 
7:53 PM
@Christopher 6k built-in slots with how many (fractional) bytes per built-in?
 
30
Q: Goodbye Cruel World!

TezraBackground Hello golfers! I would like to learn all the programming languages! But I kinda have a short attention span... and copying all the Hello World examples gets boring... but I like fire! ^w^ Challenge So here is the plan! I want you all to write the smallest code that will compile, pr...

?
:P
@EriktheOutgolfer Congrats on your gold tag badge! :)
And you too @Adám :P
 
@HyperNeutrino thanks.
 
@Christopher You were asking what magic did in Jelly?
 
hey other than 42 what kinda easter egg numbers are there
 
666
444
 
7:59 PM
:P
 
(that's crossed-out btw :P)
444 == 444
It's slightly different, but not enough that you'd be able to tell the difference.
Well, let's take a look at magic. The m means modular which takes every yth element of the list x, so for [0, 1, 2, 3], 2, this would give [0, 2].
Since there is only one argument in your example, it gives [x]m[k] for each k in x.
So [0, 1, 2, 3] would become [[0, 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1, 0], [0, 1, 2, 3], [0, 2], [0, 3]]
m0 means append the reverse because it doesn't make sense to take every 0th element, so it's overloaded.
I'm not exactly sure how ma chains together, but since ma is different from mµa, I assume that it is not doing the above task and then Logical-ANDing with the original list.
@Dennis How does [dyad][dyad] chain together on a single argument?
 
see, even jelly programmers are confused about it
 
Each dyad is called with the previous return value and the link's argument.
 
no wonder I wasn't able to understand how it would chain :P
 
I'm not an experienced Jelly programmer :P
 
8:05 PM
I think it's dyad2(dyad1(a), a)
 
@Dennis Wait I'm stupid I should be using mða.
Okay so that makes sense, thanks.
 
you've been learning for 2 months :P
 
So since ma appears to do the same thing as mða, and because Dennis says so, it first takes the modular and then does Logical AND with the original argument.
 
What does magic do?
 
@totallyhuman That's not long considering it's Jelly :P
 
8:06 PM
So +* given two is exp(sum(2, 2), 2) or exp(4, 2) or 16
 
@CalculatorFeline That's what I'm currently figuring out.
@DJMcMayhem Oh okay thanks.
 
Good to know.
w.
 
there's editing, you know that right?
:P
 
But *+ given two is sum(exp(2, 2), 2) which is sum(4, 2) which is 6 (I think, I haven't tried it)
 
@totallyhuman Too late :P
@DJMcMayhem Yes it does that.
 
8:07 PM
That's a great feeling
One I'm not familiar with
 
@HyperNeutrino ... ^^^^^^^^^^
 
oh
Yay you can mentally do 2**2+2! :D (xD ;P)
 
@Dennis So for the first dyad, that is the argument, and then for each subsequent dyad, it's the result of the last chain?
 
wait why are your emoticons in a cage
 
Ok, so ma on [0, 1, 2, 3] is a(m([0, 1, 2, 3], [0, 1, 2, 3]), [0, 1, 2, 3])
Which is a([[0, 1, 2, 3, 3, 2, 1, 0], [0, 1, 2, 3], [0, 2], [0, 3]], [0, 1, 2, 3])
now the question is how does logical and work for lists o0
Oh it vectorizes k
So it's left if not left else right in Python, as one would expect.
And if one list is longer than the other, it just does AND on the first part that overlaps and keeps the elements unmodified on the other side.
 
8:11 PM
@DJMcMayhem Yes. For dyads fgh and argument x, it computes h(g(f(x, x), x), x).
 
For a([x,y,z],k) where x,y,z,k are all lists, it gives [x&k, y&k, z&k], vectorizing each list as I stated above.
So a([[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,2],[0,3]],[0,1,2,3]) gives [[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0]a[0,1,2,3], [0,1,2,3]a[0,1,2,3], [0,2]a[0,1,2,3], [0,3]a[0,1,2,3]]).
Which is [[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]]
 
question: why is _ subtraction and why does - do nothing apparently in jelly
 
@totallyhuman - is a literal.
Or -<number>
It's convenient that the overlapping sections all have the 0s lined up.
g is GCD/HCF/GCF/HCD.
It's also a dyad, so that gives g(a(m(x,x),x),x).
Following our above example, that's g([[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]],[0,1,2,3])
GCD also vectorizes on lists, skipping non-overlapping sections of the list.
So that becomes [[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0]g[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]g[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]g[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]g‌​[0,1,2,3]]
All parts that overlap are in the form {x}g{x} which is nice.
It gives the same thing right back.
What's with the Nyan part that keeps showing up?
 
o0 jelly's nuts
@HyperNeutrino jelly is powered by the nyan cat
 
i is index.
@totallyhuman Seems legit 10/10
So magi gives i([[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]],[0,1,2,3]).
This doesn't vectorize (because that wouldn't make sense), at least not on the left side.
It doesn't seem to on the right side either.
[[0,1,2,3,3,2,1,0],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3]]i[0,1,2,3] gives 2 because the first occurrence of [0,1,2,3] is at index 2.
c is xCy.
So this becomes 2c[0,1,2,3].
That's [1, 2, 1, 0].
Because it vectorizes.
So magic on a list gives the number of ways to choose x elements from a elements for each a in the list, where x is the first occurrence of the list in y, where y is a list of lists where each inner list contains the GCD values of each element in the sublist of z and each element in the original list, where z is a list of lists where each list is every kth element of the original list for each k in the original list.
@Christopher @CalculatorFeline ^^^
I would have appended the pings to the message but that made it too long... heh
 
8:25 PM
Um k
 
Wait I messed up darnit.
It's the number of ways to choose a elements from x elements for each a in the list, ...
I wonder what magic does for numbers...
 
oook
 
OK so {x}m{x} gives [x].
Unless x is 0. Then it gives [0, 0].
a gives logical AND, which doesn't change anything for numbers.
g gives GCD, which also doesn't change anything.
i gives index which always returns 1.
And then c is choose which gives 1 for 0, 1 and 0 for anything else.
Hey @Dennis I found a way to check if a number is 0 or 1 in Jelly.
(also magic breaks on decimal input)
 
congratulations! you won the game!
 
Of course you could also use square+equal, but where's the fun in that?
 
8:35 PM
You know, I'm convinced that walking against the arrows in an IKEA will reverse the very flow of time
4
 
Can you do about 12 years?
 
Well I have to go now. I'm surprised I didn't get ratelimited for posting like 500 messages trying to figure out a simple Jelly program :P
o/
 
@HyperNeutrino wow coolio
@Dennis Hmm let me figure that math
Well it varies
It ranges from 9/8 to 13/8 bytes
1.125 to 1.625 bytes
But my math may be wrong
 
8:55 PM
@Christopher well then
 
@feersum are you ever going to cash in on the combined 1000 rep bounties offered in the comments to this?
6
 
9:24 PM
@feersum Are you going to tell me how you did that?
 
@Christopher In case you didn't notice, that's what I just asked. Along with the people offering bounties in the comments... from last year.
 
@Christopher ... not chat appropriate?
 
@Christopher Should this be flagged?
 
@Zacharý I was wondering the same thing and I'm considering it.
Not sure if it's that bad though... seems quite bad IMO.
Like swearing is one thing, but this is... different... idk
 
It should've said "Java sucks"
 
9:34 PM
Well gtg now. o/
 
@Zacharý Except that it was made for the deep dark interwebs and not for a programming community :P
 
Why are you flagging that image? What is wrong with it?
 
Wait until the very end.
 
That is exactly the sort of thing you need to use a custom flag for.
Right now it looks like a GIF... If we don't know that you need to watch the entire thing to see the "bad" content, it's difficult for you to get it removed.
 
Can you please not try to sneak offensive content under the radar?
 
9:38 PM
Huh?
 
@PhiNotPi So as far as I can see, the 16qubit quantum computer is now available. It seems I haven't got accepted. Did you?
 
@bwDraco I was going to do that, but then I realized I would be posting it too
 
(marginally NSFW)
Can't stay here for too long.
 
@CalculatorFeline There are two kinds of chat flags... one is just spam/offensive the other is a custom moderator flag and it has a place for you to explain why you've flagged the item. This is the perfect use case for that latter flag type.
 
Crap. That was the err wrong URL
 
9:45 PM
I can just clean that up for you, then.
 
:D thanks
 
Then ... what was the correct URL?
 
shh we don't talk about the correct url
 
...
 
9:58 PM
Yes ... very weird.
@Denis, if you exist, COME FORTH!
 
@Zacharý only works if Denis has been to TNB before
 
Hey guys this meta has gone unanswered for 3 months, with only 30 views. Since I can't bounty it I thought I would share it in chat.
1
Q: Mixed input output methods in Brain-Flak and Stack based languages

Wheat WizardIt seems to be the consensus that it is acceptable in Brain-Flak to decompose a list into a series of arguments when taking input. For example if you are to take the list [2,5,6] as input you may run the following Brain-Flak ruby brain_flak.rb file 2 5 6 The same is also true of output, if yo...

 
If it hasn't got a lot of attention, maybe it isn't as issue and you can do what you normally do?
 
I don't know what to do. thats why I asked the question
 
10:04 PM
just do what you want and if someone questions that, point them to that post.
 
Aren't you going to change your name again @WheatWizard ?
 
@Zacharý Why would I?
 
It seems every time I see you on here, you've got a new grain-themed name.
 
stack.push(stack.pop(stack.pop()))
one of the best lines of code i've written
 
@totallyhuman why?
 
10:08 PM
@totallyhuman Why does .pop take an argument o_O
 
its not even golfed
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing it's not supposed to be
 
@WheatWizard the index to pop
 
@WheatWizard Removes the item at that position, then returns it.
Ninja'd
 
10:09 PM
'•': # move nth item to the top
lambda stacks, stk_no, stack: stack.push(stack.pop(stack.pop()))
 
@Zacharý I don't remember
 
@totallyhuman this is code golf! You can remove 12 bytes by changing stack to s
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing it's not for code golf
why would there be comments :P
 
New language?
 
That gives me an idea ... a golfed interpreter to a golf-lang.
 
10:11 PM
I hate my phone! It never sends messages the first time on chat! O_O
> Golf your code, not your interpreters - Dennis, talk.tryitonline.net
 
(along with the non-golfed version, obviously)
 
what about making a golfing language in a golfing language?
 
i'd assume it'd be a pain to write those many lines of code both golfed and ungolfed
 
@dzaima I made a BF variant in BF
F'ed my B really bad
 
If it's just a transpile, then it's easy as hell!
 
10:14 PM
@Zacharý assuming the interpreting language has an eval function
 
Yeah ...
Or if the language being interpreted is stack-based-no-syntax (like MY)
 
new question alert!
 
Okay .... what is it ....
 
nmp will get it.
 
i will leave that up to NMP
 
10:22 PM
Meta or Main?
 
unlike others i prefer not to steal NMP's job
main
inb4 one answer finds a nice math formula and every other answer follows
 
By math ... it's OEIS mostly.
 
@totallyhuman T(n+1, k) = T(n, k-1) + T(n, k) + T(n, k+1) + T(n-1, k)
 
2
Q: Pascal's Rhombus

Wheat WizardPascal's Rhombus (which is actually a triangle) is obtained by adding in the pattern: * *** x instead of * * x This means that each cell is the sum of the three cells on the row directly above it and one cell on the row 2 above it. Just like Pascal's triangle the zeroth row has a si...

 
10:24 PM
that... wut
that will keep recursing, right?
 
@totallyhuman ffs
 
@Mendeleev ?
 
Thats the definition. You can just make the base case T(n<1,k)=0
 
oh
can you give some test cases?
 
NVM, Oasis only deals with one input, right?
chirp
 
10:37 PM
yes
 
Dang it.
 
> Passwords must contain only letters, numbers, and !@#$%^&*
Wtaf
 
if you are going to gzip your webpages, is there any reason to not just pick utf-32 instead of utf-8?
212
Q: Why would you not permit Q or Z in passwords?

Mark MayoJetblue's password requirements specify that, among other stringent requirements: Cannot contain a Q or Z I can't fathom a logical reason for this, unless it were say, extremely common for the left side of keyboards to break, but then you wouldn't allow 'A' either :) What would be the reas...

 
10:55 PM
question: what does f(x + 1) mean
in terms of math
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

caird coinheringaahingRiffle shuffle a string - Cops and Robbers A [riffle shuffle] is a way of shuffling cards where the deck is split into 2 roughly equal sections and the sections are ruffled into each other in small groups. This is how to ruffle shuffle a string. Split the string into equal sections. Starting fr...

 
@totallyhuman Unclear what you're asking
 
@totallyhuman The function f applied to the argument x+1. Or, if f is a number, f times x+1
 

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