The Nineteenth Byte

Syxer

22:00

@Sparr Thus the reason for advertising - asking for people to sign up and such.

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

A language isn't inherently better than another if both are turing complete

Martin Ender

@RohanJhunjhunwala I don't think they're perfect yet, but they're definitely influenced by what features are commonly needed in this community

Sparr

@RohanJhunjhunwala the last couple of years of golf-specific esolangs that pack in overloading are much denser than the stuff of even a few years ago

@RohanJhunjhunwala that's nonsense. look up "turing tarpit". there are languages that are turing complete but intentionally hard to accomplish things in. and I don't mean hard like brainfuck. I mean hard, in ways that make brainfuck look like python.

Martin Ender

@Sparr you could just put it up for votes in the community ads

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@MartinEnder sorry, I misused the word perfect, but I meant to ask if they are compact enough to be considered similarly close to optimal?

Syxer

22:01

@MartinEnder <- This is what I mean. @Sparr

That formatting was terrible, apologies.

Sparr

@MartinEnder I don't even know what that means

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Sparr oh, yes of course There are harder languages. But I meant that people often fight over "Language A is better than B" and there usually is no right answer. There are turing Tarpits like malbodge that are so hard that programming something reasonable might take until the heat death of the universe

Sparr

blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/05/community-promotion-ads ?

DJMcMayhem

@RohanJhunjhunwala but the thing is, "optimal" is heavily influenced by the task

TùxCräftîñg

37

Q: Community Promotion Ads - 2016

You've graduated... a while ago. This is quite overdue, but let us not wait any longer. We present to you, Community Promotion Ads! What are Community Promotion Ads? Community Promotion Ads are community-vetted advertisements that will show up on the main site, in the right sidebar. The purpose...

@Sparr

Sparr

22:02

@DJMcMayhem optimal as measured by every codegolf question ever asked anywhere before is a pretty decent generalized "optimal"

Syxer

@Sparr I assume that you would make this non-revenue generating, yes?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@DJMcMayhem yup, I agree it depends on where u optimize the language spec towards

Martin Ender

@RohanJhunjhunwala that's really hard to say. An optimal language would have every byte stream be a valid program with useful programs corresponding to short byte streams without many equivalent programs.

Sparr

@Syxer probably under the wing of some non profit organization

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@MartinEnder yeah

Martin Ender

22:03

As impressive as Jelly is, I'm sure there is a lot of room between it and this (unachievable) optimum

Syxer

@MartinEnder Don't forget about METALANG.

Sparr

"a lot of room" is relative, and I'd say not linearly

Syxer

Or is that an infinite number of languages? I don't properly remember.

TùxCräftîñg

for the every byte stream being a valid and useful program, this look like a meta-lang

Sparr

Jelly and the other "every operator works on every type and does something useful" compactified languages are at least halfway from python to optimal

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

22:04

Certainly

Sparr

I've been intrigued by the different languages' decisions about what constants to include as single characters

Syxer

Meta question AWAY!:

0

Q: Site ads based on conferences made by users of said site

I come over from PPCG, and a few of the people in chat are talking about organizing a conference of sorts. This conference would have direct links to the PPCG site (what with coming from the site and all). Say that a conference was to be held by a SE user relating to an SE site, with no revenue ...

discussion support advertising community-promotion-ads

Sparr

most of them have a byte for the integer ten

some have twelve through fifteen, or twenty through hundred by tens

some have a constant for the string "abcd...z"

TùxCräftîñg

i think the minimum constants are: 10, 100, empty string, pi, phi, lowercase/uppercase/both alphabet

Martin Ender

@Sparr Jelly has powers of 10

Syxer

22:08

Don't forget about multi-stacking! (although it has proven ineffective for me so far. :( )

@TùxCräftîñg I have two of these :D

TùxCräftîñg

which cnostants?

DJMcMayhem

I have 0 of them... ;_;

TùxCräftîñg

;_;

Syxer

@TùxCräftîñg 10 and pi. No strings can really be a "constant" in my language since everything is considered as a float.

TùxCräftîñg

ak

DJMcMayhem

22:10

Everything's a float? O_o well that's new

DLosc

@TùxCräftîñg Not sure why phi is on this list; but other than that, Pip has all of these.

flawr

@DJMcMayhem Everything afloat? No, everything drowning.

DLosc

(Though uppercase alphabet and pi are two bytes each.)

orlp

chat mini challenge, write the shortest C expression given variable x, y such that

TùxCräftîñg

solution: COME TO THE DARK SIDE... Ư̢̨̨̯̠͖̟̰͚̌̎̉̈̀̾̓̾̒ͅÑ̮̖̜͔̝̗͙̝̫̈͂̂̎̑͑̓̒͝ͅI̜͍̭̞̣̹̞͙̹͑͐͑͒̉̉̋̄̊͠ͅC̰͓̥̫̟̱̅̊͆͛̓̀̓̍́͋‌̱͎̥̣Ơ̹̖̮̬̹̱̰̪̠̌̌̏͌̍̈́̓͘͠ͅD̡̠̲̘̦̩͙̼̻̖̉̎̂͋̾̃̓̈̌͠E̢̠̱̺̗̣͕͇̟̼͑̌̏͒͒̈́̒͘̚͝

orlp

22:11

x  y   r
2, 1 = 0
0, 3 = 0
1, 3 = 4
2, 0 = 4
3, 1 = 8
0, 2 = 8
1, 2 = 12
3, 0 = 12

you can ignore any other input combinations

DJMcMayhem

wat

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

0

A: Site ads based on conferences made by users of said site

Yes A sight specific "community promotion add" is created with the primary intention of promoting a community, and serving content which the users of that community would be interested in. If an add about a conference receives enough votes to be displayed, then I see no reason to exclude it from...

flawr

@TùxCräftîñg Does Unicode have a side other than the dark one?

4

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

</self-promtion>

MY first meta answer

TùxCräftîñg

@flawr idk why i added of

Syxer

22:12

@DJMcMayhem Not really - I just round and cast for strings.

DLosc

@orlp This looks familiar. Is it for the pipes screensaver question?

orlp

@DLosc yes

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

No love for my meta answer?

Sparr

@TùxCräftîñg phi seems arbitrary. it's 2-4 characters to compute in most dense esolangs. why not e?

DJMcMayhem

It's like 2 minutes old, give us some time to read it

TùxCräftîñg

22:14

becuz phi is a greek letter and greek iz cool

Syxer

@TùxCräftîñg I actually do have e as well. >.>

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@DJMcMayhem oh, sorry

TùxCräftîñg

@RohanJhunjhunwala why do you wirte sight instead of ~~sight~~ site everywhere?

Sparr

@orlp I'll try that...

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@TùxCräftîñg idk

Syxer

22:19

wow look at that meta rep

@Downgoat I found you in a HNP!

Sparr

@orlp first try: x+y==3?x%2?12:0:x%3>0?4:8

Syxer

@Sparr I would be very interested in assisting with the creation of this conference. Shall I make a chat room?

orlp

@Sparr can be shortened a bit

x+y^3?x%3?4:8:x%2*12

Sparr

sure

DJMcMayhem

Alright @Syxer Answered

Sparr

22:28

I was looking down the avenue of an answer of the format 4*...

hoping to add together a few boolean values to get 0/1/2/3

@Syxer probably not [yet]. stackexchange chat isn't a good format for planning events

if this happens, there will be a mailing list

Beta Decay

Hey, as long as I get the inputs together, this challenge is ready to go isn't it?

13

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Is it a bird, is it a plane? code-challenge image Challenge Supplied an image, you must determine if the subject of the image is a bird or a plane. If the image is a bird, your program must output bird and if the image is a plane, your program must output plane Your program must produce...

Syxer

@Sparr Ping me in chat or something with a link if you decide to go through with this, I'd love to see this through. :)

Sparr

will do

Syxer

@BetaDecay test-battery?

flawr

@BetaDecay I have another input for you:

quartata

22:31

ha

4

Beta Decay

@flawr I can't for the life of me work out what that is

quartata

Plane (tool)

A hand plane is a tool for shaping wood using muscle power to force the cutting blade over the surface of a material. Some rotary power planers is a motorized power tool used for the same types of larger tasks, but are unsuitable for fine scale planing where a miniature hand plane is used. When powered by electricity to the breadth of a board or panel, the tool may be called a thickness planer or planer which are designed to shape, flatten, and finish larger boards or surfaces. Generally all Planes are used to flatten, reduce the thickness of, and impart a smooth surface to a rough piece of lumber...

orlp

@Sparr thanks for your help, but I believe a lookup string will be shorter

Beta Decay

@quartata Ahh. I should have known that XD

flawr

@BetaDecay not a bird

@quartata that was the most half assed laugh I heard all day

quartata

22:35

@flawr It was only worthy of a half laugh

Sorry.

flawr

@quartata Apology accepted.

quartata

Why would that get three stars though? It's completely meaningless out of context

I mean, I don't normally complain about getting stars but I'm taking exception here

TùxCräftîñg

becuz TNB

quartata

I've made far better morsels of humor that have gotten less stars

@TùxCräftîñg That's a shit excuse.

Sorry. Really is.

eh, oh well

flawr

That's what you get when you only laugh half-assedly.

quartata

22:38

This actually is motivating me not to do that again

flawr

Hm what is the correct adverb for half-assed?

quartata

even though it isn't a punishment

@flawr I don't think there is one?

Beta Decay

@flawr half-assedly

quartata

I would either say what you said or say when you only do a half-assed laugh

Beta Decay

> He laughed half-assedly

quartata

22:39

That doesn't have the right ring though.

Beta Decay

That's used sometimes

flawr

@BetaDecay Thank you very much!

quartata

implying there's actual correct usage to this

Do whatever you want

When you start swearing you've already thrown most linguistic conventions out the window anyways

flawr

@quartata SURE, NOBODY'S GONNA TELL ME WHAT THE FUCK I SHOULD DO

Syxer

The Nineteenth Byte: NSFW ELA.SE

flawr

22:40

@quartata But that is not swearing, is it?

DJMcMayhem

Do whatever you want

flawr

Just because there is the word ass in it?

quartata

That's actually a good point, what does half-assed mean in a literal context anyways?

I'd say slicing off half of your ass just to do something is a lot of effort

Beta Decay

It isn't bad to use ELL.SE even though I'm fluent English, is it?

quartata

@BetaDecay No, go ahead. We need answers

Syxer

22:41

@DJMcMayhem ooh copy pasteable too

quartata

I'd say we're all still "learning" english anyways.

I mean, just think of all the new words you learn over the course of a year

flawr

@BetaDecay I'd be happy to see that!

Beta Decay

0

Q: What's the adverb for Half-Assed?

What's the adverb for the word half-assed? I thought it was Half-assedly but it seems like it might not be a real word...

adverbs

I might have tried to make it seem like I'm a learner

quartata

Although I think elu would a better place?

I don't even know

DJMcMayhem

^^

Beta Decay

22:44

Meh, too late now

It's in the lap of the gods now

DJMcMayhem

I guess it's not explicitly off-topic for native English speakers to ask on ELL but it's a little weird.

quartata

Technically Beta is a Welsh native

loophole

DJMcMayhem

Better?

Beta Decay

@quartata Pah, I was born in England, and I consider myself English. I don't particularly like Wales

quartata

Oh, OK.

Beta Decay

22:45

But on ELL, I'm Welsh

Syxer

@BetaDecay oml you actually did it kill me

quartata

So that brings up the age old question: is British English actually English

TùxCräftîñg

Cracked.com is another inexplicable browser narcotic. They could write a list of '17 worst haircuts in the Ottoman Empire' and I'd read through to the end, then click on all the links at the end.

quartata

;)

@TùxCräftîñg oh jeez that's large

Beta Decay

Mm, ELL is so good for rep whoring XD

Gimme teh repz

flawr

22:46

@BetaDecay Really? So English is not your native language?

quartata

@flawr We could always say we were asking it on your behalf

DJMcMayhem

@quartata such bait

quartata

@DJMcMayhem :P

flawr

@quartata If not, still better than the other englishes.

Or whatever the plural of english is.

DJMcMayhem

Also, as a (former) active user on ELL, thank you for tagging it decently. If I see one more grammar, I'm gonna snap.

quartata

22:48

@flawr Englishes

Although that's a rather strange sounding word

flawr

grammer

quartata

@flawr gammer

Beta Decay

gramma

TùxCräftîñg

0

Q: Usage of "interest"

Consider these sentences: 1) You have interested in reading 2) You are interested in reading. In the above sentences, is there any difference between using perfect tense(have+past participle) and passive voice('be'verb+past participle). Do these sentences have same meaning?

grammar present-perfect passive-voice

DJMcMayhem

@flawr eye twitch

TùxCräftîñg

22:48

@DJMcMayhem

flawr

[tag.gamma]

quartata

@DJMcMayhem grammah

OK, that's enough.

Syxer

flawr

grandma

Syxer

should I?

quartata

22:49

We don't want to give DJ an ulcer

TùxCräftîñg

grmmr

flawr

@Syxer no, it is not vulgar

Beta Decay

@Syxer Is that an actual tag?

DJMcMayhem

Syxer

I'm sensing a lot of disagreement in the room

TùxCräftîñg

22:49

n

Syxer

@BetaDecay yes

DJMcMayhem

me rn.

flawr

@BetaDecay So english is not your native language?

quartata

@DJMcMayhem Oh yeesh, it's a new kind of ulcer that turns you into a grinch

2

flawr

At what age did you start learning english then?

Beta Decay

22:50

@flawr I started learning English at around 4 years old

So I haven't been speaking too long

DJMcMayhem

Wanna know something funny? One of my highest voted answers on ELL was for "What does 'stop whacking off' mean?"

Beta Decay

XD

Syxer

@DJMcMayhem killll meeeeeee

how has this happened

DJMcMayhem

When I answered it, he got really angry and said "Maybe I'll go whack off in my boss's lunch" and it got deleted, but I was laughing so hard... XD

Beta Decay

@DJMcMayhem That guy's boss said stop whacking off to him?

What does he do for a job?

DJMcMayhem

22:52

No clue.

Destructible Watermelon

hi guys!

DJMcMayhem

Hello!

TùxCräftîñg

!syug ih

Beta Decay

¡Hola!

DJMcMayhem

You kinda walked in at a weird time.

Syxer

22:54

@BetaDecay I have a very funny answer to this but it'd probably be considered overly inappropriate, and, as such, I'm leaving the hint of: "It's illegal in America but many people have tried to legalize it."

TùxCräftîñg

minipoll: what is your timezone?

Syxer

@TùxCräftîñg BST

TùxCräftîñg

in GMT+/-n plz

DJMcMayhem

@Syxer Hahahaha

Beta Decay

@TùxCräftîñg BST, UTC+1

Syxer

22:54

@BetaDecay Brits in the house whuddup

Beta Decay

Woot woot

TùxCräftîñg

I'm tempted to make a language that outputs true as Why, yes, good sir or madam, this is in fact the case! — QPaysTaxes Apr 20 at 21:20

5

^ best idae evre 10/10

Syxer

I miss @QPaysTaxes. :( He disappeared for surgery and said he'd be back by now.

Destructible Watermelon

UTC+09:30

quartata

I've seen him in Charcoal HQ.

He's fine

TùxCräftîñg

22:57

wow 2 stars in 30 sec

DJMcMayhem

@TùxCräftîñg MST, GMT - 6

Syxer

@quartata oh sick

WE MUST BRING HIM BACK INTO THE FOLD

quartata

No, he quit here because he wanted to focus on writing good code

I don't blame him

DJMcMayhem

Hahaha

Syxer

aw

TùxCräftîñg

22:58

but golfed code is good ;_;

Syxer

He should seek out a way to write good AND short code! :D

quartata

Also I think he started college so

> Student at RIT in the Game Design and Development major

Syxer

@quartata oh well yup baiii

quartata

not bad

orlp

@Sparr do you have GCC on a linux machine?

quartata

22:59

@orlp Do you need something tested?

orlp

#define R rand()%
X,Y,d,e,w,h;main(c){srand(time(0));scanf("%d%d",&w,&h);
for(printf("\e[2J");;usleep(19999)){
X%-~w*(Y%-~h)||((d=e=R 4)&2?X=1+R w,Y=d&1?1:h:(Y=1+R h,X=d?1:w),c=R 8);
e^=R 5?0:2+R 2;
printf("\e[%dm\e[%d;%dH\xe2\x94%c\e[H\n",30+c,Y,X,2*"@_JF_@LHHFA_LJ_A"[d*4|e]);
*((d=e)&2?&Y:&X)+=e%2*2-1;}}

save as golf.c

Destructible Watermelon

so, if you don't remember, my language will be called turtlèd, because è is cool

orlp

gcc -w golf.c -lm && resize | sed 's/[^0-9]*//g' | ./a.out

compile and run like that

TùxCräftîñg

@DestructibleWatermelon and it's because of one of my random word generator

Destructible Watermelon

nope

TùxCräftîñg

23:00

which generated the coolest word ever: mèñém

quartata

It compiles fine

I'm a little nervous to run it....

TùxCräftîñg

the accentued words gave you the idea for the accentued letter

Destructible Watermelon

nope

orlp

@quartata it's this: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/93594/4162

it won't destroy your pc

I promise

quartata

I mean, it looks fine and I don't think it's big enough to be some form of format string attack but you'll excuse me for being a little nervous anyways

Oh wow

That's beautiful

orlp

23:02

does it run?

Beta Decay

@orlp You don't know how rubbish my computer's processor is ;)

quartata

Yes.

orlp

and it works correctly?

quartata

I can make you a GIF of it if you want but it looks like it does what the challenge asks

TùxCräftîñg

CMC: Rule 110 in CPP

orlp

23:03

@quartata I'm actually considering submitting this for IOCCC 2016

(with modifications to further obscure the program, of course)

quartata

It looks especially nice on my terminal because there's no gap between the vertical pipes

orlp

if I can golf off another 50 bytes

it'll be < 256 bytes

I doubt that'll happen though :(

DJMcMayhem

Does it have to be <256?

orlp

no, but that is a nice treshold

quartata

@orlp I'm adding a little bash script to my .bashrc that runs that after 30 minutes

orlp

23:09

@quartata :)

@quartata with a couple extra bytes it can be made nicer

it hides the cursor

but it's not in my version because you need to make a signal handler that catches ctrl+c to re-show the cursor

or else the cursor stays hidden after program exit

quartata

Yeah, I'm adding a trap to the script that does \e[?25h and clears the screen

orlp

@quartata that works too :)

@quartata you might want some code that clears the screen every N pipes as well

quartata

Hmm, yeah...

Maybe every 2 minutes

Conor O'Brien

@flawr ಠ_ಠ

orlp

#define R rand()%
X,Y,d,e,w,h,s;f(){s=1;}
main(c){srand(time(0));scanf("%d%d",&w,&h);signal(2,f);
for(printf("\33[?25l\33[2J");!s;usleep(19999)){
X%-~w*(Y%-~h)||((d=e=R 4)&2?X=1+R w,Y=d&1?1:h:(Y=1+R h,X=d?1:w),c=R 8);
e^=R 5?0:2+R 2;
printf("\33[%dm\33[%d;%dH\xe2\x94%c\33[H\n",30+c,Y,X,2*"@_JF_@LHHFA_LJ_A"[d*4|e]);
*((d=e)&2?&Y:&X)+=e%2*2-1;}printf("\33c\33[?25h\33[2J");}

@quartata slightly bigger version that cleans up on sigint

quartata

23:20

Oh, cool. Thanks.

orlp

I wonder if I should include <signal.h> and use SIGINT

TùxCräftîñg

'ñĩģʜτ

orlp

or is SIGINT = 2 everywhere?

Downgoat

question: is :not(:first-child, :last-child) valid CSS?

quartata

Pretty sure it's 2 in all UNIX flavors.

At least I know that off the top of my head it's 2 in Solaris so

Sparr

23:21

@orlp no gcc on linux easily available

Conor O'Brien

CMC: given a string S, output the string, but with the last char being the first one. E.g., "Hiya => HiyH, 1 => 1, abcbe => abcba.

Destructible Watermelon

currently not possible with turtlèd's current state ._.

Conor O'Brien

wat is that

Destructible Watermelon

how to deal with input EOF?

Downgoat

@ConorO'Brien s->s.head(-1)+s[0]

mınxomaτ

23:33

My phone provider just switched to unlimited LTE data. Yay!

Downgoat

btw note to cheddar users: Update to latest cheddar so you'll always be up to date

Conor O'Brien

What does head do?

Downgoat

gets frist n chars of string

Conor O'Brien

and with a negative?

Downgoat

it's absically .slice(0, n)

n wraps around

Destructible Watermelon

23:35

halp I can't figure out how to handle input ;_;

oh i have idea now OuO

quartata

@Downgoat Should overload it so that .head() is just the first element

Downgoat

i think ive aleady done that

Qwerp-Derp

Yay, 1k rep!

Downgoat

\o/

Destructible Watermelon

damm, bugs!

Downgoat

23:41

pls halp making filter is hard

Qwerp-Derp

:( no one cares about my achievement

@Downgoat Whoa what is that

Downgoat

3 mins ago, by Downgoat

\o/

i gave you a celebratory \o/ :D

Qwerp-Derp

Yey

Uhh @Downgoat What is that thing

Downgoat

@Qwerp-Derp Project I'm working on. It's tap secrit fer now

Qwerp-Derp

Oh yeah and you borked a page in your docs for Cheddar

Downgoat

23:43

wait wat

;_;

Qwerp-Derp

docs.cheddar.vihan.org/Mathematics/Multiplication.html

Downgoat

shit... too lazy to fix rn though

feel free to submit a GH PR though :)

github.com/cheddar-lang/docs

Conor O'Brien

interesting idea: what is the lowest class of complexity than can calculate digits of pi?

quartata

P

Conor O'Brien

as in, turing-complete is a complexity class? perhaps it's not the best term

quartata

23:49

Oh.

A complexity class is a set of problems that have similar run-time complexities in some way

Turing completeness is just a property

Conor O'Brien

oh

quartata

The esolangs folk call it computational class but that doesn't feel right

Conor O'Brien

that's what I meant :P

orlp

@quartata gist.github.com/orlp/8e45655732ebd0ef4b13637479e44847

now automatically detects your terminal size

uses a proper 'alternate buffer' mode

so that when you kill the screensaver the previous contents of your terminal are restored

(e.g. like vim)

Conor O'Brien

does it work on windows?

quartata

23:56

Oh whoa, thanks. You didn't have to :P

orlp

and it clears the screen every 100 pipes

@ConorO'Brien if you have posix emulation and an xterm escape code aware terminal

read: probably not

Conor O'Brien

I have some posix utils

orlp

@quartata oops

quartata

I was just about to say it goes a little fast now

orlp

change 999 to 19999

quartata

23:57

I think you dropped a sleep somewhere lemme see

orlp

(or copy paste from gist)

quartata

Oh.

orlp

I was debugging some stuff

(or rather, checking the 100 pipes logic)

quartata

Oh hey it hides the cursor now too

That makes most of my script logic defunct now :P

orlp

yes it shouldn't need any helper script anymore

just save as screensaver and call screensaver when you want it

quartata

23:59

Yeah, still need the if ((`xprintidle` > 9000000)); then part obviously :P

Markdown hates backticks

Transcript for