The Nineteenth Byte

AviFS

08:00

And that there may be other reasonable ways of defining errors for our purpose

Bubbler

s/there's no meta consensus/there's no meta consensus you could find/

There's always a possibility that e.g. caird can give you one

and saying 'error' without further specification is considered unclear

hyper-neutrino

oh yeah redwolf is on vacation still

i was wonder what you were doing up at this hour

Redwolf Programs

"vacation" :p

Bubbler

@AviFS You can always post a meta question though. It'll just be closed as dupe in the worst case

Redwolf Programs

@hyper-neutrino I was going to do a recurring event, but we'd need 6 of them due to the scheduling rules we decided on, and that would complicate a lot of stuff

AviFS

08:06

@Bubbler Certainly, I was letting people know in case someone else would do it

Not familiar with the meta format, and don't particularly want to rn

Bubbler

@AviFS Don't wait for someone else to do it. Just write a question

There's no particular format for meta

Razetime

and meta doesn't mess with rep

StackMeter

@hyper-neutrino by my clock it's 9:07

AviFS

@Bubbler True, but it wasn't in the first multiple pages of searching "error" and other variants. So other people are unlikely to find it as well. It bodes badly

Bubbler

You can just ask anything, as long as it's about the site

hyper-neutrino

08:08

@StackMeter it's 4:08 here so it's 3:08 in texas and redwolf is never up that late, but in hawaii it's...

10:08 PM

AviFS

I can write it up tomorrow, then

Adám

@hyper-neutrino What are you doing up as such an hour‽

hyper-neutrino

uh.

lyxal

CMC: return the first truthy element of a list

AviFS

@Bubbler Defaults are good. Often people don't clarify. For instance, the error-on-odds challenge doesn't have anyone accusing them of being unclear, and they haven't defined anything

hyper-neutrino

08:10

idk how i manage to sleep so little ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i am tired when i wake up ofc but i am completely fine most of the day especially once it's later in the night

Adám

@lyxal Are we guaranteed there'll be one?

Unrelated String

@lyxal Jelly, 2 bytes: o/

i think

lyxal

@Adám yes

Unrelated String

will test in a minute lmao

Adám

@lyxal APL: 1 (don't need the input)

Redwolf Programs

08:11

@lyxal d=>d.find(x=>x)

hyper-neutrino

wait is 1 the only truthy number

lyxal

no

hyper-neutrino

(in APL)

lyxal

idk then

Adám

Yes, and 0 is the only falsey one.

AviFS

08:12

@Adám I'm figuring he means to use 0 as falsy, everything else as truthy

hyper-neutrino

huh.

AviFS

Or did you mean to have it be language dependent @lyxal?

Adám

@AviFS If so, it'd be "first non-zero"

hyper-neutrino

{(⍵~0)[1]} if first non-zero

Adám

@hyper-neutrino ⊃~∘0

Razetime

08:13

husk has a 2 byter

AviFS

@Adám wow

Redwolf Programs

I think Ḥ would be an Ash one byter

StackMeter

@hyper-neutrino redwolf goes to sleep at 3pm?

Razetime

whatsat do

hyper-neutrino

@StackMeter ... AM

Redwolf Programs

08:15

lol

Razetime

@RedwolfPrograms explainnnn

Adám

CMC: Non-negative integer list → index of first non-zero.

Redwolf Programs

@Razetime It's just the find function

I forgot whether the default function it used was identity or not

StackMeter

@hyper-neutrino that makes more sense

Razetime

@Adám ⊃⍸∘×

Redwolf Programs

08:17

Midnight is typically when I go to sleep, although being five hours off for a week is going to frick that up I think

Adám

@Razetime ⊃⍸

Razetime

you didn't say list of booleans

Adám

Indeed. Try it.

Razetime

huh

StackMeter

@Adám Python: for i in range(len(l)):if l[i];print(i)

Razetime

08:18

oh alright i get it

StackMeter

done that

Adám

You can't do if l[i];?

StackMeter

@Adám oh it's non-negative

hyper-neutrino

@StackMeter if it weren't, your solution would be wrong and adam's would be correct...

@Adám lambda a:[i for i,e in enumerate(a)if e][0]

Adám

@StackMeter What happens if there are multiple truthies?

hyper-neutrino

08:20

also that's a snippet

StackMeter

oh it's specfically the first one

hyper-neutrino

TḢ in Jelly

literally just "truthy indices => head"

StackMeter

Python snippet: for i in range(len(l)): if l[i];print(i);break

hyper-neutrino

you should probably multiline codeblock that

Adám

Anything better than L=>L.map(x=>x?1:0).indexOf(1) in JS?

StackMeter

08:22

ofc Jelly has a two-byter

it's just the way of things

Redwolf Programs

@Adám findIndex

Adám

@hyper-neutrino Same as in APL, then.

hyper-neutrino

nice

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Graph Altitude Take an array of nonnegative integers, such as [1, 0, 0, 1, 2, 4, 2, 0]. Then, draw that as a mountain where the integers represent altitude: x x x x x xx x You can optionally reverse the array, and you can use any printable non-whitespace character o...

Redwolf Programs

^ Porbably a dupe

Adám

08:26

@RedwolfPrograms So L=>L.findIndex(x=>x)?

Redwolf Programs

Yep

hyper-neutrino

well i almost just gave myself a heart attack

tried to upvote a comment and misclicked flag

ofc there are still a bunch more steps before actually flagging but still I am never sure what is undoable and what requires confirmation and i am always scared of misclicking or leaking things in screenshots

Adám

@RedwolfPrograms "reverse"?

@hyper-neutrino Same.

hyper-neutrino

fun fact: refreshing a user profile requires confirmation, but suspending a user from chat does not, and the buttons are right next to each other (vertically)...

Adám

Yay, SE chat.

PyGamer0

08:28

@hyper-neutrino misclicks

Redwolf Programs

@Adám Mirroring horizontablly

hyper-neutrino

move/delete messages and delete room are also right on top of one another

Adám

@RedwolfPrograms How about flipping the output upside down, and/or transposing it?

hyper-neutrino

fortunately delete room requires confirmation but a single accidental space bar hit and the room is gone

Redwolf Programs

@Adám Not allowed

Maybe I'll just disallow reversing it

PyGamer0

08:30

@hyper-neutrino accidentaly clicks & presses spacebar

AviFS

Looks great! Just one suggestion. There's a sentence intended to give a taste of what he have, and which could also serve as ideas for new posters.
> We host coding challenges, such as code golf, and related questions, such as code-golfing tips.
However, the first sentence is already:
> Welcome to Code Golf & Coding Challenges Stack Exchange!
Not to mention both code golf and coding challenges are in our name & logo. It'd be nice to use that sentence to give them other ideas and a broader sense of what we have to offer, and what they might have to offer us.

I'm purposely not including [tag:popularity-contests], [tag:code-bowling], [tag:busy-beaver], [tag:code-shuffleboard], [tag:duct-tape-coding] or [tag:obfuscation], since those are harder to do well, and so not ideal to recommend to newcomers. We might want a separate meta question to collect tags people want to recommend to newcomers?

Also, I'd replace the code-golfing tips example. They'll definitely see them quickly, and they're not really the core of our site. There's one tips per language, so it's not something they can hop onto. And while it is educational/helpful, it's moreso later o…

blah blahking-of-the-hill blah blah

hmmm.... why'd that not work in the text?

hyper-neutrino

multiline messages do not support markdown at all

AviFS

What counts as multiline?

hyper-neutrino

has multiple lines

Adám

@RedwolfPrograms Can we take 1-based integers instead?

Razetime

08:32

shift+enter anywhere

Redwolf Programs

@Adám Sure, will clarify

AviFS

@Razetime Ouch, I see. thanks

hyper-neutrino

yeah basically if it contains newlines

you can turn them into fixed font / code block messages and that's it

also chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/1/sandbox if you want to play around with markdown

i advise against it though, for health and safety reasons

Redwolf Programs

Chat markdown is so awful I feel like it was done on purpose

hyper-neutrino

oh if you think SE code block formatting is stupid try figuring out how discord's works

AviFS

08:34

It's really terrible... I don't get it

hyper-neutrino

nobody does

Redwolf Programs

"I don't get it" is the unofficial motto of SE chat :p

5

AviFS

hahaha

Well it's pretty impossible to read

PyGamer0

@hyper-neutrino ? isnt it triple backticks

AviFS

So at risk of annoying everyone, I'm going to repost and take up half the wall

@cairdcoinheringaahing Looks great! Just one suggestion. There's a sentence intended to give a taste of what he have, and which could also serve as ideas for new posters.

> We host coding challenges, such as code golf, and related questions, such as code-golfing tips.

However, the first sentence is already:

> Welcome to Code Golf & Coding Challenges Stack Exchange!

Not to mention both code golf and coding challenges are in our name & logo. It'd be nice to use that sentence to give them other ideas and a broader sense of what we have to offer, and what they might have to offer us.

I'm open for ideas, but I'm thinking to use "fun", diverse, not-immediately-obvious and underrepresented examples. Tags that will take them to corners of the site they might not find immediately. Things like king-of-the-hill, cops-and-robbers, metagolf & answer-chaining. (Any other ideas?)

I'm purposely not including popularity-contests, code-bowling, busy-beaver, code-shuffleboard, duct-tape-coding or obfuscation, since those are harder to do well, and so not ideal to recommend to newcomers. We might want a separate meta question to collect tags people want to recommend to newcomers?

---
Also, I'd replace the code-golfing tips example. They'll definitely see them quickly, and they're not really the core of our site. There's one tips per language, so it's not something they can hop onto. And while it is educational/helpful, it's moreso later on in the golfing career at which point they'll stumble across it. It's not so interesting at the start. This point may be more controversial, though.

PyGamer0

08:36

@hyper-neutrino ok wow stop make a challenge for this

Razetime

@Adám mans really wants to to ⍉∘↑⌽⍤↑∘'X'¨

Redwolf Programs

@AviFS Doesn't seem like the actual ask question page would be a good spot for that

hyper-neutrino

→ 4 messages moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

(just to unbreak your wall :P)

Razetime

@hyper-neutrino I use zero width spaces to mess with the backtick formatting

AviFS

haha, thanks @hyper-neutrino

Redwolf Programs

08:36

Anyway gtg for tonight

Razetime

it's the stupidest possible thing

Adám

@Razetime Upside down.

AviFS

too generous, you are

hyper-neutrino

I'm not sure about going too in-depth into tags in that box

it's not very large and too much info will make people just ignore it

Razetime

@Adám i guess ⊖ instead of ⍉ then

Adám

08:37

No.

AviFS

@hyper-neutrino It's true, I got a bit overzealous

@RedwolfPrograms Right now we have:

felipa

hi

Razetime

ah yeah that's not right

AviFS

> Welcome to Code Golf & Coding Challenges Stack Exchange!

felipa

@ngn thank you so much!

AviFS

08:39

AND

> We host coding challenges, such as code golf, and related questions, such as code-golfing tips.
However, the first sentence is already:

I'm proposing just to change the second sentence, to list other examples of things we have

hyper-neutrino

the new challenge has +3/0??

i mean, it's not a bad idea, but it literally has no wincon and was on 4/5 before i just closed it just now to avoid answers

Adám

@Razetime 12

AviFS

To expose newcomers to things like KOTH and cops & robbers

hyper-neutrino

I don't want to name any specific tags other than code-golf TBH

we could just not provide a "for example" and just say "we host [various coding challenges]" and just link that to our list of wincons

Razetime

neat

AviFS

08:42

@hyper-neutrino Wait, we have a list of wincons?? Where?

I just searched through 8 pages of tags to find those...

hyper-neutrino

- codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/305/…

it's linked in the dialog

er, wrong post. lemme find the actual list

AviFS

@hyper-neutrino Why not? Surely we're more than just codegolf. And surely we want them to know that, broaden our scope, and not scare them off if golfing happens not to be their thing

hyper-neutrino

because every other tag is harder to use properly and i don't want to increase low quality koth challenges

AviFS

I mean, that's fair

I wonder what caird will think, or have you already vetoed?

hyper-neutrino

13

A: The Tag Categorization Project

Winning Criteria/Question Type Every question should have at least one of these tags. Please use this search query to find questions without one, and tag with the correct tag if the winning criterion is specified in the question. Currently (Jan. 9, 2021) there are none! If you think there needs t...

@AviFS well we'll have to wait for them to get online. i'd like their opinion though, because i don't think it's a good idea to give the impression that we only do code golf, but i neither want to list all the tags nor highlight one non-code-golf one specifically

so i'll wait for them to mention something and probably discuss directly with caird tmr too

AviFS

08:48

@hyper-neutrino That's way cool! I'm reading through every one right now!!

It's a great source of inspiration

@hyper-neutrino What about a link to that answer for [related questions]?

> We host coding challenges, such as code golf, and related questions, such as code-golfing tips.

@cairdcoinheringaahing ^

hyper-neutrino

those aren't related questions - we could link it for [coding challenges], but related questions specifically refers to non-challenge on-topic questions

like [tips]

AviFS

Also @hyper-neutrino, if the aim is not to include questions you don't recommend for newcomers, why include [tips]?

PyGamer0

If anyone can outgolf me in my own lang; nah thats not possible codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/230482/103854

AviFS

@hyper-neutrino Ah, good point. I mean what you just said then: [coding challenges]

hyper-neutrino

because it's pretty much the only non-challenge tag and we also don't want to send the impression that non-challenge questions are strictly off-topic, because they aren't, and we've had confusion with that whole discussion in the past

@PyGamer0 hard to when you have no documentation

PyGamer0

08:53

@hyper-neutrino that is on my todo list :P

hyper-neutrino

anyway, it's nearly 5 so i'm gonna go to sleep. we can discuss further together with caird tmr. o/

wasif

hi everyone

AviFS

@hyper-neutrino That makes a lot of sense!

@hyper-neutrino Sounds good! Sleep well, I better also. I'm very happy with the conclusion being a link to objwincon under [coding challenges], by the way

wasif

@PyGamer0 your language has a fast development speed

which is nice

you might consider making a chat room for it here

PyGamer0

@wasif ok

@wasif chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/126847/the-51ac8-room

felipa

09:14

hi @ngn

ngn

hi @felipa

felipa

why do you need both P and o? Isn't P already the profit built up so far?

A username

I'm working on a challenge where you have to print your source code as full names for each character (for example A => Latin Capital Letter A) - does anyone have a good source for these?

ngn

@felipa P is only within the current slice (l..r), o is for the whole input. but maybe they can be merged somehow..

felipa

@ngn oh I see. Maybe they can be merged as you say

@ngn more importantly, the code fails if you set the capacity to 2**20

@ngn capacity 51000 is the smallest capacity I have found that fails. Is that just more than the sum of the weights?

right.. the code fails if the capacity is more than the sum of the weights

ngn

09:25

@felipa the original code (not in-place) fails for that too

wasif

@Ausername google search

you will get a lots of results

felipa

@ngn :(

A username

I tried, couldn't find anything definitive

ngn

@felipa the test for that is O(n) so it wouldn't affect the overall O(n) if it's added as a special case

felipa

@ngn true. Is there a constant time test that can be in the code too?

wasif

09:27

@Ausername maybe check this: unicode.org/charts/charindex.html

this might help

A username

Thanks!

felipa

I mean at some point l takes an illegal value it seems

ngn

@felipa i'm not sure what you mean

felipa

@ngn the error is that l is out of range when being used as an index for x[l]

in a,b=x[l]

ngn

@felipa and that only happens when the capacity is larger than the sum of weights, right?

felipa

09:30

@ngn I think so

more specifically it seems l = 100 and the length of x is 100

ngn

so, we can add if c > sum(w for p,w in x): return .. at the beginning of the function, without affecting its O( )

wasif

@Ausername welcome :-)

felipa

so it's an out by one problem it appears

@ngn true. I wonder if there is a cheaper fix

ngn

@felipa we can ask the challenge author to guarantee that this special case won't occur in the input :)

felipa

@ngn :)

how about if l == len(x) ...

would that do?

ngn

09:36

@felipa most likely

felipa

@ngn I not feeling your confidence here :)

I am going to time the code and compare with the other version in the meantime

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

From Code Golf to Coding Challenges Related to this question. Your task is, to make a program that outputs Code Golf. If I delete the last character in your code, the program should output Coding Challenges. Rules Default Loopholes apply The program must take no, or an empty unused, input Traili...

math

^ probably dumb

A username

ᑥ

U5221

math

@Ausername sorry, what?

A username

09:39

Nvm

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Full name quine quine code-golf unicode Most Unicode characters have full names, for example ” is "RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK". You can find a useful reference here, just type in the character you want to find the full name of and look in the DESCRIPTION column. Your challenge is to write a prog...

A username

^ I feel like it's a good idea with a bad implementation - help appreciated...

felipa

@ngn well that's weird. The in-place code is slightly slower!

how can that be?

ngn

@felipa you didn't ask for fastest-code :)

felipa

@ngn I didn't :) But secretly that is what I wanted

can you see why your code would be slower than the code I gave you?

ngn

09:49

@felipa i don't know. this is python. python is generally slow and it's hard to reason why one program is slower than another.

felipa

@ngn that is true.

I guess your code is easier to translate to cython

ATaco

@PyGamer0 51AC8 doesn't seem to have a custom code-page (Or rather, any way to use anything other than UTF-8), which will mean that your programs are bigger than you've claimed them to be.

Razetime

@ATaco RProgN Golflang when?

ATaco

RProgN2 exists.

felipa

CMC Take an array of integers 1,..., 10. For each i in the array pick three integers uniformly at random (with replacement) from the array. Output the exact probability that the median of these three values equals i. (We say that that median of 2,2,1 is 2 . That is we always pick one of the three values)

Razetime

09:53

@ATaco oh i need to add that

need to read some code i suppose

ATaco

It uses Windows-1251, and is pretty Janky.

It's got a pretty strange quine being «` . (Note the trailing space)

Razetime

janky as compared to?

ATaco

Don't worry, it's without a doubt Jankier than RProgN 1.

If you don't mind me asking, add it to what?

Razetime

@ATaco this bad boy

felipa

@ngn why don't you need to deal with the case that t = p/w? Is that from the dutch flag algorithm?

ATaco

09:57

Nice. I've had a few attempts at making Golf langs, but RProgN2 is my best attempt.

Although I've other esolangs.

ngn

@felipa yeah, the region with t==p/w remains in the middle, between i and j

felipa

@ngn cool

turns out the other solutions fail too if the capacity is high

well at least one of them

ATaco

(Funky2 is my favourite of my esolangs so far)

Razetime

@ATaco is there a tut for it

ATaco

I’ve got funky2.a-ta.co but that’s incomplete

Writing function documentation is tiring

Also I need to update my cert

Neil

10:05

@PyGamer0 Charcoal, 10 bytes: ←MC**‖Ｏ: Ｓ (actually the boring solution is also 10 bytes)

A username

If I had an accept for every challenge I've won...

Anush

@Ausername finish the sentence! :)

A username

I'd have 8.5k rep.

math

Has anybody noticed that Joe has the top 3 most voted questions which aren't community wiki?

felipa

is more rep better or worse?

I think it means you don't award enough bounties

whenever I write python code it's so tempting to pose a fastest-code challenge to see how much faster it could be in another language

ATaco

10:24

I updated the Cert. Been a long time commin

A username

10:47

CMP: Worst language?

I wish Calvin's Hobbies was still active...

felipa

@Ausername perl? bash? tcl?

A username

SQL maybe

or PHP

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