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4:01 PM
okay so the thing pygamer typed is like this:
あなた - you: は: topic particle
いつでも: always
グーグルトランス: google translate (katakana imported word): を: object particle
使う: to use
こと: thing: が: subject particle
できます: polite present tense conjugation of できる which means "to be able to"
actually it's 出来る but i guess it's common enough that you can just use hiragana
but yeah it's just "you can always use google translate"
 
what on earth
 
@hyper-neutrino Are you from Japan? For some reason your avatar looks like it could've been made in Japan somehow
 
ngn
lol
 
@RecursiveCo. i am not, i was born in the US, i live in canada, I am a native english/mandarin speaker, and I am ethnically chinese
 
ethically?
 
4:03 PM
i missed a letter
 
@RecursiveCo. isnt that the lambda symbol?
 
better than being unethically chinese though
also yeah it's just lambda ._.
 
@PyGamer0 I know, but it looks like some japanese photoshop thing. Again, no idea why.
 
ngn
@PyGamer0 more importantly, it's pixelated :)
 
4:04 PM
then that becomes pixel art
@ngn wdym
 
let us uh, not further explore that topic. i just made it pixels cuz i think it looks cool and it takes less effort to click on a few pixels than to do more detailed art
 
ok agreed
 
@ngn ok understood
 
ngn lmao
 
ngn
:)
 
4:07 PM
reminds me i had no idea until yesterday that there were historical/irregular spellings in kana
は and へ being wa and e as particles but otherwise being pronounced ha and he
 
ಠ_ಠ but also lol
@UnrelatedString oh yeah those are very funny
also isn't を pronounced 「お」
as a particle
 
@UnrelatedString はは very funny :P
 
yeah i was about to say i think there's a third one i totally forgot
hehe
 
Don't you mean へへ? :P
 
4:08 PM
oh yeah that's how i found out in the first place :P
 
I reckon that we should assign "sounds" to each character in the Jelly code page so that we can "speak" Jelly :P
 
i 100% agree
you need 256 sounds though. might i suggest chinese-style tonality which can pack 4 (mandarin) / 6 (cantonese) sounds per syllable/phoneme combination?
 
the difference with を being that it doesn't exist except as the irregularly spelled particle
 
oh yeah right
 
in modern use at least
 
4:09 PM
even the katakana is barely used right
 
@hyper-neutrino I'll add it to my list of "Jelly related things I really should do" :P
Or, for that matter, my list of "Things I really should do" :P
 
@hyper-neutrino why not just 256 syllables?
 
yeah i'd imagine that ヲ does get used if there's ever anything foreign to transcribe a wo from but i can't imagine that comes up much either
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing That would be a lot of "P with a dot on the bottom, A with two dots at the top and a line 50% through the middle horizontally"
 
actually how many sounds does jp have
if anyone knows spanish it should be similar apparently :p
 
4:11 PM
you could read off the bookmarklet keyboard shortcuts :P
 
@RecursiveCo. Let's say that "underdot" means "normal letter with an "ah" sound after" and "overdot" means "normal letter with "oh" sound after". Then ṖḊḤ becomes "podoha"
(just an example, not actually a good idea :P)
 
@PyGamer0 使う isn't the right verb to use btw
it means "to use" in the sense of "to spend" or "to consume"
用いる makes more sense here ("to use" as in "to make use of")
although the one you used is apparently also correct ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
i guess contextually it doesn't make sense to "spend google translate" so everyone will know what you mean
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Jelly abugida
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing then you run into issues where C has to sound like K or S because english is dumb and reeeeeee
 
4:14 PM
omg jelly conlang?
 
actually 用いる has some other minor implications. but it's more polite so since you used 出来ます it would make more sense
 
@hyper-neutrino Well yeah, you have to be careful with the choices (and really this should all be in IPA), but it's doable
 
yeah
for ease of use, each byte should be exactly one mora and ideally stress/pitch accenting should have no impact on meaning and tonality should not matter (just cuz it's hard to learn if you don't speak a language that uses it)
 
... Did somebody say linguistics? =D
 
Not explicitly, but, rather fittingly, tacitly :P
 
4:21 PM
:D
okay so if we assign each letter a consonant (including vowels) then we can use vowels to indicate uppercase/lowercase, none/updot/downdot so we need six vowels which is easy
and then digraphs can be mapped to single vowels to make speech a bit more recognizable maybe? idk
 
What are you doing, devil spawn?!
There's a reason no one dares speak Jelly
 
maybe we can summon dennis back
 
Do you want to summon this?
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing my very specific use for podcasts is when I'm doing something with my hands and want some noise as a distraction; usually biking or crafts.
 
@hyper-neutrino Guess it'd be worth it then
 
4:24 PM
@bobble I mainly use music for that tbh
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing I don't really like listening to music for this because my mind filters it out effectively, so it doesn't actually fulfil its purpose
 
listening to music while i work either goes exceptionally well because it serves as noise to stop my mind from wandering too much / hearing the environment
or it goes horribly because now i am solely focused on the music ಠ_ಠ
it's great when i am doing some non-brain-requiring task and need a distraction tho
 
Music without words, however, works well when I am doing something that requires the word-part of my brain to be occupied but is deathly boring (e.g. studying history notes)
 
i always like to say i don't listen to music and have no taste in music but now i'm more at a point where it feels weird to game without music and i end up having music in my head half the time i'm doing something else
 
i've played games with music but i find it too distracting usually lol
 
4:27 PM
lol
 
i even turned off the in-game league music (although that was partially to listen to my own until i decided to not)
 
league is the game i specifically have to put music on over because the in game music is so faint
 
@hyper-neutrino Non-letter symbols could probably be syllables that start with a consonant that isn't one of the consonants used for letter symbols.
 
although having the music be missing was kinda strange because i got used to feeling like the game was different when the music swapped phases during the game progression
league sound is not as important though cuz visuals are enough - it's especially important in overwatch cuz i can't see behind me but i can hear xd
 
4:29 PM
my sister loves the music from Octopath Traveler
 
ngn
@DLosc clicks :)
 
@ngn Maybe clicks can represent quicks? [ba-dum-kssh]
 
Quicks are indicated by speeding up the talking speed :P
3
 
@DLosc I don't think "kssh" counts as a click sound
 
4:34 PM
@bobble EDM is my goto for that
 
Truthfully, I wonder if APL is a better target for the "pronounce a programming language" project. So many of its characters are designed as compositions of two smaller bits already.
 
probably
 
ngn
@DLosc it has too many primitives
 
I feel like an easy way to make a language pronounceable is to make each character be pronounced as ad, abad, ababad, abababad, etc.
 
yeah but that isn't golfy
 
4:38 PM
Might get lightly verboe, though :P
> easy way
 
s/verboe/verbose
 
I see the pelin poleee are hear :P
 
I designed an esolang once that was intended to be pronounceable: it was infix with vowels for variables and consonants for operators. Never got around to implementing it, though. It felt too clunky.
 
s/ar e/are /
 
@RecursiveCo. An APL server.
 
4:39 PM
@user you added one too many "s"-s
 
@user s/spelling police/spelin poleese/ :P
 
okay now you're doing it on purpose, take mercy on my poor typo-checking brain
 
Better?
 
@bobble I think you mean "on purpoise" :P
 
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh
 
4:40 PM
"Purpose" is a sea-animal, similar to a dolphin
 
@bobble The hole thing was on purpoe; (accept for the first one, when I forgot the "s" in verboss}
 
you see a crown spontaneously combusting in the distance
 
@bobble Ooh, pretty
 
Don't you mean "spontainiuslee"? smh get your spaylin write if you want to be a cop
 
Given that Jelly characters can be split into "groups": upper/lower case letters (each which are in one of 4 subgroups: standard, overdot, underdot, hooked), and non-letter symbols, it shouldn't be too difficult to assign sounds to each letter to distinguish it from upper/lower case, then modify those sounds based on the subgroup
 
4:43 PM
The IPA probably has sounds for many of those already, but I don't know how easy an arbitrary Jelly program would be to pronounce
 
Yes, but that's an existing standard so we need a new, universal standard :P
 
(Yes, I know about the relevant xkcd)
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Everyone making a standard ever
 
(lol)
 
4:44 PM
2 seconds ninja :P
 
ngn
you've been outquicked :)
 
hyper must have used an atomic banana to be so fast
 
Forget universal standards, if we can decide on a hyper-localized standard that's impressive enough
 
idk what's up with chat but i am getting ratelimited really hard like i try to send two messages and it makes me wait 9 seconds
doesn't help that i am chatting in four rooms i guess
 
Clearly you're a cross-room spammer
 
4:46 PM
We need checks on mods to prevent tyranny, of course
 
yep, must be it. there is definitely nothing a mod can do worse than type too quickly in multiple rooms
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing For some reason I read that as spanner and I was very confused
 
it's not like we can uh, edit your chat message and then remove the message history so nobody knows who edited it
 
confirmed: HN's a spanner
 
@hyper-neutrino I think I'll need proof of this, through a demonstration :P
 
4:47 PM
Can you do it on this message?
 
edit me daddy ;)
7
I regret this immediately
 
smh
 
i have demonstrated
 
@pxeger your mistake shall be saved forever
 
I have no idea what the original message was :P
 
4:48 PM
That but without ;)
 
@hyper-neutrino However, you can make a reasonable guess
 
I can see that it was edited and that there is no history, therefore eleven. RN, there's 3 mods in the room, so it was either you, Art or Cat :P
 
send a test message and i will try something
 
this is a test message
Let me just 12 that for you @user :P
 
4:51 PM
Test message. All mods are most certainly not bad people don't eleven me please
Wait what?
 
:/
 
oh wait i'm stupid
i can 11 the history and then submit a blank edit to make it show in the history again, but then it shows that i edited it .-. i am dumb
 
I made sort of a converter from Jelly to text <https://tinyurl.com/3m7aywkb>
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing How did my message come back after yours when you moved it?
 
@user What message?
 
4:53 PM
> Test message
 
did you edit it and then caird 12'd it so it just sent instead
 
I guess that's what happened ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@astroide So Jelly = "living in air", cool
 
yeah if i open the edit field and the message goes away it just sends it instead
 
Might want to use another room for this
@cairdcoinheringaahing I don't know why, but somehow, that feels appropriate
 
4:59 PM
@astroide I may or may not be putting basically all my Jelly answers through this :P
This is "lyayqa", which I'm pronouncing as "lyee-eye-kuh" :P
 
i will work on a more mnemonic-y mapping to hopefully make it easier to remember or smth :p
 
5:24 PM
@Adám Pip, 7 bytes in a bunch of different ways:
g@?@FIg
Tg@iUii
TPOgUii
#:K0~Jg
K0~Jg$)
Only the last two work on TIO.
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing @cairdcoinheringaahing I didn't even notice that when writing it
 
@Adám Scala: _ indexWhere 0.!=
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Sorry for the double ping, I didn't know responding to a comment also put a @
 
multiple pings in the same message don't actually behave any differently from a single ping, but sending another message with a ping will :P
 
@astroide As hyper said, replying and pinging (@astroide) only pings once :P
 
5:38 PM
Jelly people, you might want to speak to this user :P
 
I love that you can tell how little people use meta by the fact that the only people who have done tag synonyms are mods :P
 
tbf we don't have that much activity on main either, so there's less activity on meta and less tag-synonymizing
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Not sure tag synonyms are a good measuring stick--they are pretty rare in general. There's only like 20 of them on the main site.
 
Yeah, there are two main things about tag synonyms: the synonym has to actually exist, which isn't always the case; and users have to have a score of 5 or more in the tag
 
or mod powers
 
5:46 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing ig a lot of the users who did have a score of 5 or more in meta tags have left
 
other than revision redaction, is there anything else normal diamond mods can do without a higher power but not unilaterally by themselves?
 
@hyper-neutrino ?
 
higher power = CM, I think
 
Pretty sure mod messages at least notify other mods, which seems to be fairly unique or at least half-way there, if that counts?
@hyper-neutrino Burnination?
 
higher power = cm, dev, etc
@cairdcoinheringaahing they do - i guess that somewhat counts
 
5:50 PM
I have to say, it is annoying that there is no MSE on what exactly mods can and can't do
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing tbh i'm not actually sure what the process for that is
 
@hyper-neutrino Wait, you're an alcoholic?
 
There's the cheat sheet, but that isn't really a clear cut list of abilities
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing You could ask a question about that
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing some of our tools are best kept private, at least the details. but i guess documentation on the list of actions mods can take would be nice
 
5:51 PM
@hyper-neutrino Looking into it, I believe it requires dev interventions
@hyper-neutrino Are there any tools where users knowing you can do X would be a Very Bad Thing?
It's shouldn't necessarily detail how the tools work, but more what the tools are and what they allow y'all to do
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Do you expect an answer to that? :P
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing not Very Bad i guess, but it gives insights into how one can potentially evade us
 
@DLosc It's a yes/no answer :P
 
it wouldn't be a huge deal but it might be inconvenient
 
@hyper-neutrino Set community consensus
 
5:53 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing Ah, okay. I didn't read it literally enough
 
Mods have a louder voice on meta than most, but I don't recall a unilateral consensus being made by a single mod ever on the network
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing is there an actual mod action called that or do you just mean mods can't say what the community agrees on
 
@DLosc "Hi yes, I'm asking for a friend how I can wreak havoc, spam and vote fraudulently on your site? For a friend keep in mind" :P
@hyper-neutrino The latter
 
in which case i'd argue multiple mods can't even do that
 
Check MSO - mods have recently implemented a rule about delete/undelete votes that appears to have been a mod-team-only decision (I agree with the rule but still)
 
5:57 PM
@cairdcoinheringaahing right but is that a community consensus?
 
I suppose it's more of a "rule" than a "consensus"
 
deleting memes, for example, was a mod team decision and the community did not get a say at all but i wouldn't say the community consensus is that it should be gone
even though i think most people agree
 
Yeah, I guess I mean more "Mods have more power to act, but very rarely take substantial actions unilaterally"
 
yeah that makes sense
 
@hyper-neutrino Maybe ask in the Moderator Team? :P
 
6:00 PM
probably a better idea :p
 
What happens if someone clicks on a link to a Teams post and isn't part of the Team?
 
you get "this team is invite-only" page
apparently activating a custom close reason also requires multiple mods
 
Hmm, only one is listed in the close stats
 
Wow, there's still a ton of two-letter sequences available for builtins in Pip.
 
jelly still has single characters not mapped lol
 
6:14 PM
It feels like there aren't that many because I keep running into existing ones when trying to come up with names for new ones. I guess some letters are just more common than others.
 
All of them dyads/quicks unfortunately :/
 
@hyper-neutrino Same--Pip needs meanings for H, j, and p. That's one of the conditions I've set for myself before I can call it Version 1.0.
But I'm thinking of making p be "()", so that would be one off the list.
 
wait, pip isn't in v1.0 yet? hasn't it been around for a while lol
 
Over six years :)
 
6:18 PM
The other big thing I need to do before 1.0 is give Blocks a sensible string representation. RP{a+1} should be "{a+1}", not "{[Operator(+,ADD,2,32,L), Name(a), 1]}".
 
cmc think of consonant sounds other than th b ch d f g h j k l m n p q(kw) r s t ts v w sh y z
that you wouldn't mind being part of the jelly translation
 
tz
 
(and basically every other consonant followed by r, basically)
 
oh wait. yeah. i forgot about that combination lol
 
6:22 PM
Don't those ususally count as two phonemes though?
t and r?
 
att
th meaning θ (think)? can add ð (the)
 
yeah but as long as it fits into one syllable it's fine
 
So "onset consonant clusters," then.
 
i am trying to make a bijection between 256 distinct syllables and jelly's codepage
@DLosc eh, i do not know enough about linguistics so i will assume that is correct :D
@att maybe. those are kinda similar so i might say they are equivalent
 
att
they're as similar as t and d, just they're written the same way in english
 
6:23 PM
i don't want minor differences to make differences because like there isn't really context cuz it's just a random bytestring
actually true they aren't all that identical
i'll consider it
 
@hyper-neutrino Note that if people aren't native speakers of English or one of a few other languages, they might have trouble with th.
 
oh, true
 
att
it's a pretty uncommon sound among languages, yeah
 
same reason i'm probably not gonna add mandarin X to it, because it's not part of english and might cause confusion
(idk the actual name of that sound)
 
att
this might help if you're looking for ideas ipachart.com
 
6:26 PM
@hyper-neutrino I wouldn't mind IPA x, which I think is Mandarin h.
Commonly spelled either ch or kh in conlangs, I believe
 
hm. sounds very similar to english h tho
 
True
 
att
pinyin x is ɕ
 
also idk what to assign to Q cuz now that i think about it it's kinda inconsistent and the consonant part of it is just K
since it's always followed by U so QU is just KU
 
If you like consonant clusters, then you can add w and y (IPA j) after almost anything: bwa, bya, fwa, fya, nwa, nya, etc.
 
6:30 PM
> nya
 
@hyper-neutrino en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_uvular_plosive but English speakers would probably confuse it with k
 
true
i probably could've just referred to a kana chart and stole all of the sounds and combination sounds from it lol
@DLosc hm. yeah to me that sounds too similar to k or g
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing gocomics.com/peanuts/1967/05/03
 
thing is similar sounds in normal speech are fine cuz of context but here i'm just trying to enable producing a random string of sounds and each one needs to be distinct enough
 
att
kana would be a syllabary
 
6:32 PM
i can read the sounds without needing to have the computer sound each one out unlike IPA tho :p
 
@hyper-neutrino How do you feel about consonants at the ends of syllables?
 
att
as in, each is (C)+V
 
hm... unsure.
jp has each as (C)+V and kr has each as (C)+V+(C) right?
 
Japanese can also end with a nasal or double the first consonant of the following syllable.
 
right
 
att
6:34 PM
korean is an alphabet
 
right
oh i guess i can just make Q "ky" lol
so kya, kyu, etc
although kyi doesn't work so well so i will need to select a different vowel set for consistency
i think certain consonants at the end are fine
although if two adjacent sounds end + start with the same consonant would it get confusing?
or rather, would a ka and ak a get confusing
 
@hyper-neutrino I'd recommend forcing every syllable to start with a consonant.
 
Isn't that what emphasis is for?
 
@DLosc that could work - i kinda wanted lone vowels to be the digraph markers but this makes sense too
 
@hyper-neutrino Easier to parse that way. ;)
 
6:38 PM
true :p
 
@hyper-neutrino If you limit the ending consonants to a small set, it won't get confusing. Pick one nasal, one stop, and one fricative, and if their pronunciation assimilates to the following consonant, it'll still be clear enough which is which.
 
att
mfw forgot that python doesn't require () when assigning a tuple
 
@DLosc ah, that's a good point. i am not familiar with those terms though xD is like, n nasal, k stop, f fricative? ?? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@hyper-neutrino Bingo!
 
att
yes
 
6:42 PM
\o/
 
I'd pick s for your default fricative; IIRC it's the most common one.
 
-sa and -s sa might get confusing? idk if that'd be clear enough
(same problem if i pick f of course, but)
 
Yeah, one would have to really focus on pronouncing the consonant doubled.
 
att
@hyper-neutrino stops block then release airflow, like k, t, b
 
i mean one possibility is to just have a disjoint set of starting and ending consonants
cuz if you have 10 consonants, then changing them from all starting to half starting half ending already gives you 2.5x the combinations
 
6:45 PM
Ah, true that.
 
although then i'll have more consonants that don't line up to their sounds - i want each of the 26 english letters to have a start consonant attached
right now i have

https://tio.run/##Fc1nUxpBGMDx9/spSNf03pu9926qndhiDqPBlOGwYECTKDOCSVRUwElEI1jY3bPM7B43h9/i2S9Cln3x@@/OPrNr622xWTtsqRRbZitslQVZiIXZHxZhm2yXHbAj4YzwCe7iP/gM93F/YpYv8iUe5mt8S4@acR7lcY4TXn5oOXHy1OkzZ89lZJ6/cPHS5StXr12/cfPW7Tt3791/8PDR4yfoaVZ2Tm5efkFhUXFJaVl5RWVVdU1tXX1DY1Pzs@cvXr563dLa1t7R2WV9093T29f/duCdYht8PzT8wT7y8dPnL2wPsS1GWIxtC3VHqLtC3RNqXKhYqESoVKiaUPeFeiDUQ0M1XIbbmDG8hl9EN40FI2hEjJgZTHqNyaTPmE0GkmFjPhlNxozQcSC5f@w0No49ZghoAPAY4CmgGHAQNDfgGOA9IE4gE6BNAfkJZAVIBLQgkEOgk6DtAJ01w4CdSJfjbn0O8KIu31nRt/QjIA4gY@YmkDkgfiABIH@BTgB1A/2W0IAuAx4HPA2UAA6B5gG8DTgOZBSIC7RpIL@ArALZYGt8D
 
att
ng is a safe bet for final consonant, from an english perspective
 
ngn
@hyper-neutrino what sound is "j"?
 
dzh? idk
 
ngn
other options: zh or y
 
6:47 PM
@hyper-neutrino I was trying to figure out how that worked before seeing it wasn't Jelly :/
 
l o l
idk if i can make y a consonant on its own which is what i currently have mapped to y
 
@hyper-neutrino I like how all the vowels are Cr.
 
i might drop certain vowels (like "i" (ee)) and that way allow like kya, nya, etc
@DLosc i also tried to pick the lexicographically closest consonant to assign for mnemonic reasons
 
att
@hyper-neutrino in IPA y is a vowel :')
 
e.g. I is close to H and J but those don't make sense, so K => kr
 
6:49 PM
@hyper-neutrino Just noticed that, yeah.
 
@att oh now that i think about it if i do combinations like kya and nya then i am basically just making it a double-vowel combination
 
ngn
"v" vs "w" may be hard to distinguish in some parts of the world
 
that's a good point
 
att
if you're familiar with pinyin it corresponds to ü
 
Add lots of click consonants :p
 
6:51 PM
@RedwolfPrograms I can pronounce about four different clicks. I have no idea how some languages have dozens of them.
 
Near a hundred in some
No idea how lol
 
att
@hyper-neutrino yeah, approximants like english y, w are kinda between vowels and consonants
 
yeah... i may just drop them and replace them with clear vowel sounds. idk
if we require every sound to end with a consonant then it becomes clear
 
What's this for?
 
Fun ^_^
 
6:54 PM
if you hear just one consonant sound, you know the previous sound ends with and the next sound starts with the same thing
@RedwolfPrograms making jelly pronounceable :D
 
You're not going to be able to worry about accessibility for that lol
Why's that even a concern
 
well this is clearly a very serious and important project
also if sounds are too similar it's easy to get them confused which is much worse in a language without context where every individual byte must be conveyed exactly correctly
 
^
 
Are you napping byes to syllables or phonemes?
 
i'm awake right now
ok but typo jokes aside, syllables i think?
well, definitely not phonemes
 
6:56 PM
On mobile lol
 
@hyper-neutrino Now that I think of it, what this really calls for is a 256-character version of the NATO phonetic alphabet.
 
see this'd be easier if we allow tonality and just instantly quadruple the available sounds for free
 
Oh, syllables should be doable without
Approximants
 
@DLosc well sure but then we are just naming each symbol lol
 
att
6:58 PM
@hyper-neutrino why settle for four
 
@RedwolfPrograms definitely possible but i want to make it as nice to remember as you can really get it
 
Even 8 consonants would work easily
 
@att true. cantonese has 6 right? and other languages might have more than i don't know about
 
@hyper-neutrino As someone who doesn't speak any tonal languages, I might be able to handle two tones (high and low).
 
N, T, K, B, D, G, S, Sh
Then four vowels
That's 256
 
7:00 PM
@RedwolfPrograms How's that? You've got 32 consonant-vowel combos, where's the other factor of 8 coming from?
 
ending
 
Oh, got it.
 
8 consonants, 4 vowels, 8 consonants
CVC
 
i mean, making a bijection between sounds and 256 is quite easy but i want to make it not just an arbitrary map
 
@RedwolfPrograms That does run into the same pronounceability problem we were talking about before--trying to distinguish among s, sh, ssh, shs, ss, and shsh for example. Unless the ending consonants are a different 8 consonants from the leading consonants.
 
7:01 PM
thoughts on this? one way i can avoid ending consonants from being confusing is synonymizing -d and -t for example
so the same symbol ad can become atda or adta depending on the next symbol
 
You could replace S and Sh with M and F for ending ones I guess
 
@hyper-neutrino Those seem hard to pronounce/keep straight. Assimilation is going to tend to make them into atta and adda.
 
true
distinguishing ata and atta in jp can get a bit confusing at times - when my friend is talking about readings sometimes i need to stop him and ask him to say it more clearly
then again, will anyone really be able to speak this quickly xD
 
att
with practice, why not
 
ngn
7:05 PM
@hyper-neutrino you could add diphthongs
 
7:17 PM
Hm. What if normal, hooked, dot above, and dot below were each a different vowel; then lowercase could be the plain vowel, and uppercase could be a diphthongized version of that vowel? Specific diphthong varying based on which base vowel it is.
Alternately, case could be represented by other pairs of vowel features: short/long, tense/lax, two different tones...
Or, for better redundancy (which is good for retrieving a message from a noisy signal), more than one of the above
E.g. lowercase = short lax vowel with low tone, uppercase = long tense vowel with high tone
 
that's what i was thinking (or similar) (and why i wanted each of the 26 letters to have a distinct consonant)
so we need six vowels (or another thing we could do is a vowel + an ending consonant combination, but that might consume too many available combinations) for (lowercase, uppercase) x (normal, dot above, dot below)
 
7:33 PM
@felipa that's very obfuscated if you ask me. what it's doing is this: 1) swap a and b if a< b 2) swap c and d if c<d 3) swap ab and cd if a<c [a is now in top 2, so can't be the median] 4) swap b and e if b<e 5) if b<c then max(c,e) else max(b,d)
 
att
couldn't you do voiced/unvoiced consonant as well?
 
like k vs g?
 
att
right
 
i'm just including them as separate consonants
 
7:49 PM
oh m and n might be a bit close together
have an initial draft here, just have the letters set so far
 
@Adám Retina, 4 bytes: \G0, (i.e. count of leading 0s)
 
@Neil but optimal it seems
 

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