The Nineteenth Byte

hyper-neutrino

4:01 PM

okay so the thing pygamer typed is like this:
あなた - you: は: topic particle
いつでも: always
グーグルトランス: google translate (katakana imported word): を: object particle
使う: to use
こと: thing: が: subject particle
できます: polite present tense conjugation of できる which means "to be able to"

actually it's 出来る but i guess it's common enough that you can just use hiragana

but yeah it's just "you can always use google translate"

PyGamer0

what on earth

Recursive Co.

@hyper-neutrino Are you from Japan? For some reason your avatar looks like it could've been made in Japan somehow

ngn

lol

hyper-neutrino

@RecursiveCo. i am not, i was born in the US, i live in canada, I am a native english/mandarin speaker, and I am ethnically chinese

Recursive Co.

ethically?

hyper-neutrino

4:03 PM

i missed a letter

PyGamer0

@RecursiveCo. isnt that the lambda symbol?

Recursive Co.

ah

hyper-neutrino

better than being unethically chinese though

also yeah it's just lambda ._.

Recursive Co.

@PyGamer0 I know, but it looks like some japanese photoshop thing. Again, no idea why.

ngn

@PyGamer0 more importantly, it's pixelated :)

PyGamer0

4:04 PM

then that becomes pixel art

@ngn wdym

hyper-neutrino

let us uh, not further explore that topic. i just made it pixels cuz i think it looks cool and it takes less effort to click on a few pixels than to do more detailed art

Recursive Co.

ok agreed

PyGamer0

@ngn ok understood

Razetime

ngn lmao

ngn

:)

Unrelated String

4:07 PM

reminds me i had no idea until yesterday that there were historical/irregular spellings in kana
は and へ being wa and e as particles but otherwise being pronounced ha and he

hyper-neutrino

ಠ_ಠ but also lol

@UnrelatedString oh yeah those are very funny

also isn't を pronounced 「お」

as a particle

caird coinheringaahing

@UnrelatedString はは very funny :P

Unrelated String

yeah i was about to say i think there's a third one i totally forgot

hehe

caird coinheringaahing

Don't you mean へへ? :P

hyper-neutrino

草

Unrelated String

4:08 PM

oh yeah that's how i found out in the first place :P

caird coinheringaahing

I reckon that we should assign "sounds" to each character in the Jelly code page so that we can "speak" Jelly :P

hyper-neutrino

i 100% agree

you need 256 sounds though. might i suggest chinese-style tonality which can pack 4 (mandarin) / 6 (cantonese) sounds per syllable/phoneme combination?

Unrelated String

the difference with を being that it doesn't exist except as the irregularly spelled particle

hyper-neutrino

oh yeah right

Unrelated String

in modern use at least

hyper-neutrino

4:09 PM

even the katakana is barely used right

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino I'll add it to my list of "Jelly related things I really should do" :P

Or, for that matter, my list of "Things I really should do" :P

pxeger

@hyper-neutrino why not just 256 syllables?

Unrelated String

yeah i'd imagine that ヲ does get used if there's ever anything foreign to transcribe a wo from but i can't imagine that comes up much either

Recursive Co.

@cairdcoinheringaahing That would be a lot of "P with a dot on the bottom, A with two dots at the top and a line 50% through the middle horizontally"

hyper-neutrino

actually how many sounds does jp have

if anyone knows spanish it should be similar apparently :p

Unrelated String

4:11 PM

you could read off the bookmarklet keyboard shortcuts :P

hyper-neutrino

lol

caird coinheringaahing

@RecursiveCo. Let's say that "underdot" means "normal letter with an "ah" sound after" and "overdot" means "normal letter with "oh" sound after". Then ṖḊḤ becomes "podoha"

(just an example, not actually a good idea :P)

hyper-neutrino

@PyGamer0 使う isn't the right verb to use btw

it means "to use" in the sense of "to spend" or "to consume"

用いる makes more sense here ("to use" as in "to make use of")

although the one you used is apparently also correct ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i guess contextually it doesn't make sense to "spend google translate" so everyone will know what you mean

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing Jelly abugida

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing then you run into issues where C has to sound like K or S because english is dumb and reeeeeee

Razetime

4:14 PM

omg jelly conlang?

hyper-neutrino

actually 用いる has some other minor implications. but it's more polite so since you used 出来ます it would make more sense

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Well yeah, you have to be careful with the choices (and really this should all be in IPA), but it's doable

hyper-neutrino

yeah

ipa chart ftw

for ease of use, each byte should be exactly one mora and ideally stress/pitch accenting should have no impact on meaning and tonality should not matter (just cuz it's hard to learn if you don't speak a language that uses it)

DLosc

... Did somebody say linguistics? =D

caird coinheringaahing

Not explicitly, but, rather fittingly, tacitly :P

hyper-neutrino

4:21 PM

:D

okay so if we assign each letter a consonant (including vowels) then we can use vowels to indicate uppercase/lowercase, none/updot/downdot so we need six vowels which is easy

and then digraphs can be mapped to single vowels to make speech a bit more recognizable maybe? idk

user

What are you doing, devil spawn?!

There's a reason no one dares speak Jelly

hyper-neutrino

maybe we can summon dennis back

user

Do you want to summon this?

bobble

@cairdcoinheringaahing my very specific use for podcasts is when I'm doing something with my hands and want some noise as a distraction; usually biking or crafts.

user

@hyper-neutrino Guess it'd be worth it then

caird coinheringaahing

4:24 PM

@bobble I mainly use music for that tbh

bobble

@cairdcoinheringaahing I don't really like listening to music for this because my mind filters it out effectively, so it doesn't actually fulfil its purpose

hyper-neutrino

listening to music while i work either goes exceptionally well because it serves as noise to stop my mind from wandering too much / hearing the environment

or it goes horribly because now i am solely focused on the music ಠ_ಠ

it's great when i am doing some non-brain-requiring task and need a distraction tho

bobble

Music without words, however, works well when I am doing something that requires the word-part of my brain to be occupied but is deathly boring (e.g. studying history notes)

Unrelated String

i always like to say i don't listen to music and have no taste in music but now i'm more at a point where it feels weird to game without music and i end up having music in my head half the time i'm doing something else

hyper-neutrino

i've played games with music but i find it too distracting usually lol

Unrelated String

4:27 PM

lol

hyper-neutrino

i even turned off the in-game league music (although that was partially to listen to my own until i decided to not)

Unrelated String

league is the game i specifically have to put music on over because the in game music is so faint

hyper-neutrino

true

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino Non-letter symbols could probably be syllables that start with a consonant that isn't one of the consonants used for letter symbols.

hyper-neutrino

although having the music be missing was kinda strange because i got used to feeling like the game was different when the music swapped phases during the game progression

league sound is not as important though cuz visuals are enough - it's especially important in overwatch cuz i can't see behind me but i can hear xd

bobble

4:29 PM

my sister loves the music from Octopath Traveler

ngn

@DLosc clicks :)

DLosc

@ngn Maybe clicks can represent quicks? [ba-dum-kssh]

caird coinheringaahing

Quicks are indicated by speeding up the talking speed :P

3

pxeger

@DLosc I don't think "kssh" counts as a click sound

hyper-neutrino

→ 8 messages moved to CG&CC-gaming

caird coinheringaahing

4:34 PM

@bobble EDM is my goto for that

DLosc

Truthfully, I wonder if APL is a better target for the "pronounce a programming language" project. So many of its characters are designed as compositions of two smaller bits already.

hyper-neutrino

probably

ngn

@DLosc it has too many primitives

user

I feel like an easy way to make a language pronounceable is to make each character be pronounced as ad, abad, ababad, abababad, etc.

hyper-neutrino

yeah but that isn't golfy

user

4:38 PM

Might get lightly verboe, though :P

> easy way

bobble

s/verboe/verbose

user

I see the pelin poleee are hear :P

DLosc

I designed an esolang once that was intended to be pronounceable: it was infix with vowels for variables and consonants for operators. Never got around to implementing it, though. It felt too clunky.

hyper-neutrino

s/ar e/are /

Adám

@RecursiveCo. An APL server.

bobble

4:39 PM

@user you added one too many "s"-s

caird coinheringaahing

@user s/spelling police/spelin poleese/ :P

bobble

okay now you're doing it on purpose, take mercy on my poor typo-checking brain

user

Better?

caird coinheringaahing

@bobble I think you mean "on purpoise" :P

bobble

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh

caird coinheringaahing

4:40 PM

"Purpose" is a sea-animal, similar to a dolphin

user

@bobble The hole thing was on purpoe; (accept for the first one, when I forgot the "s" in verboss}

bobble

you see a crown spontaneously combusting in the distance

DLosc

@bobble Ooh, pretty

user

Don't you mean "spontainiuslee"? smh get your spaylin write if you want to be a cop

caird coinheringaahing

Given that Jelly characters can be split into "groups": upper/lower case letters (each which are in one of 4 subgroups: standard, overdot, underdot, hooked), and non-letter symbols, it shouldn't be too difficult to assign sounds to each letter to distinguish it from upper/lower case, then modify those sounds based on the subgroup

user

4:43 PM

The IPA probably has sounds for many of those already, but I don't know how easy an arbitrary Jelly program would be to pronounce

caird coinheringaahing

Yes, but that's an existing standard so we need a new, universal standard :P

hyper-neutrino

relevant xkcd

caird coinheringaahing

(Yes, I know about the relevant xkcd)

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Everyone making a standard ever

hyper-neutrino

(lol)

caird coinheringaahing

4:44 PM

2 seconds ninja :P

ngn

you've been outquicked :)

user

hyper must have used an atomic banana to be so fast

DLosc

Forget universal standards, if we can decide on a hyper-localized standard that's impressive enough

hyper-neutrino

idk what's up with chat but i am getting ratelimited really hard like i try to send two messages and it makes me wait 9 seconds

doesn't help that i am chatting in four rooms i guess

caird coinheringaahing

Clearly you're a cross-room spammer

user

4:46 PM

We need checks on mods to prevent tyranny, of course

hyper-neutrino

yep, must be it. there is definitely nothing a mod can do worse than type too quickly in multiple rooms

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing For some reason I read that as spanner and I was very confused

hyper-neutrino

it's not like we can uh, edit your chat message and then remove the message history so nobody knows who edited it

pxeger

confirmed: HN's a spanner

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino I think I'll need proof of this, through a demonstration :P

user

4:47 PM

Can you do it on this message?

pxeger

edit me daddy ;)

7

I regret this immediately

DLosc

smh

hyper-neutrino

i have demonstrated

Razetime

@pxeger your mistake shall be saved forever

caird coinheringaahing

I have no idea what the original message was :P

user

4:48 PM

That but without ;)

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino However, you can make a reasonable guess

hyper-neutrino

true

caird coinheringaahing

I can see that it was edited and that there is no history, therefore eleven. RN, there's 3 mods in the room, so it was either you, Art or Cat :P

hyper-neutrino

send a test message and i will try something

caird coinheringaahing

this is a test message

Let me just 12 that for you @user :P

user

4:51 PM

Test message. All mods are most certainly not bad people don't eleven me please

Wait what?

Catija

:/

hyper-neutrino

oh wait i'm stupid

i can 11 the history and then submit a blank edit to make it show in the history again, but then it shows that i edited it .-. i am dumb

astroide

I made sort of a converter from Jelly to text <https://tinyurl.com/3m7aywkb>

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing How did my message come back after yours when you moved it?

caird coinheringaahing

@user What message?

user

4:53 PM

> Test message

hyper-neutrino

did you edit it and then caird 12'd it so it just sent instead

user

I guess that's what happened ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

caird coinheringaahing

@astroide So Jelly = "living in air", cool

hyper-neutrino

yeah if i open the edit field and the message goes away it just sends it instead

user

Might want to use another room for this

@cairdcoinheringaahing I don't know why, but somehow, that feels appropriate

caird coinheringaahing

4:59 PM

@astroide I may or may not be putting basically all my Jelly answers through this :P

This is "lyayqa", which I'm pronouncing as "lyee-eye-kuh" :P

hyper-neutrino

i will work on a more mnemonic-y mapping to hopefully make it easier to remember or smth :p

DLosc

5:24 PM

@Adám Pip, 7 bytes in a bunch of different ways:

g@?@FIg
Tg@iUii
TPOgUii
#:K0~Jg
K0~Jg$)

Only the last two work on TIO.

astroide

@cairdcoinheringaahing @cairdcoinheringaahing I didn't even notice that when writing it

user

@Adám Scala: _ indexWhere 0.!=

astroide

@cairdcoinheringaahing Sorry for the double ping, I didn't know responding to a comment also put a @

hyper-neutrino

multiple pings in the same message don't actually behave any differently from a single ping, but sending another message with a ping will :P

caird coinheringaahing

@astroide As hyper said, replying and pinging (@astroide) only pings once :P

user

5:38 PM

Jelly people, you might want to speak to this user :P

caird coinheringaahing

I love that you can tell how little people use meta by the fact that the only people who have done tag synonyms are mods :P

user

tbf we don't have that much activity on main either, so there's less activity on meta and less tag-synonymizing

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing Not sure tag synonyms are a good measuring stick--they are pretty rare in general. There's only like 20 of them on the main site.

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, there are two main things about tag synonyms: the synonym has to actually exist, which isn't always the case; and users have to have a score of 5 or more in the tag

bobble

or mod powers

user

5:46 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing ig a lot of the users who did have a score of 5 or more in meta tags have left

hyper-neutrino

other than revision redaction, is there anything else normal diamond mods can do without a higher power but not unilaterally by themselves?

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino ?

bobble

higher power = CM, I think

caird coinheringaahing

Pretty sure mod messages at least notify other mods, which seems to be fairly unique or at least half-way there, if that counts?

@hyper-neutrino Burnination?

hyper-neutrino

higher power = cm, dev, etc

@cairdcoinheringaahing they do - i guess that somewhat counts

caird coinheringaahing

5:50 PM

I have to say, it is annoying that there is no MSE faq on what exactly mods can and can't do

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing tbh i'm not actually sure what the process for that is

user

@hyper-neutrino Wait, you're an alcoholic?

caird coinheringaahing

There's the cheat sheet, but that isn't really a clear cut list of abilities

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing You could ask a question about that

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing some of our tools are best kept private, at least the details. but i guess documentation on the list of actions mods can take would be nice

caird coinheringaahing

5:51 PM

@hyper-neutrino Looking into it, I believe it requires dev interventions

@hyper-neutrino Are there any tools where users knowing you can do X would be a Very Bad Thing?

It's shouldn't necessarily detail how the tools work, but more what the tools are and what they allow y'all to do

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing Do you expect an answer to that? :P

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing not Very Bad i guess, but it gives insights into how one can potentially evade us

caird coinheringaahing

@DLosc It's a yes/no answer :P

hyper-neutrino

it wouldn't be a huge deal but it might be inconvenient

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Set community consensus

DLosc

5:53 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Ah, okay. I didn't read it literally enough

caird coinheringaahing

Mods have a louder voice on meta than most, but I don't recall a unilateral consensus being made by a single mod ever on the network

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing is there an actual mod action called that or do you just mean mods can't say what the community agrees on

caird coinheringaahing

@DLosc "Hi yes, I'm asking for a friend how I can wreak havoc, spam and vote fraudulently on your site? For a friend keep in mind" :P

@hyper-neutrino The latter

hyper-neutrino

in which case i'd argue multiple mods can't even do that

caird coinheringaahing

Check MSO - mods have recently implemented a rule about delete/undelete votes that appears to have been a mod-team-only decision (I agree with the rule but still)

Mod cheat sheet answer on "privileges and abilities" ಠ_ಠ

hyper-neutrino

5:57 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing right but is that a community consensus?

caird coinheringaahing

I suppose it's more of a "rule" than a "consensus"

hyper-neutrino

deleting memes, for example, was a mod team decision and the community did not get a say at all but i wouldn't say the community consensus is that it should be gone

even though i think most people agree

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, I guess I mean more "Mods have more power to act, but very rarely take substantial actions unilaterally"

hyper-neutrino

yeah that makes sense

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Maybe ask in the Moderator Team? :P

hyper-neutrino

6:00 PM

probably a better idea :p

caird coinheringaahing

What happens if someone clicks on a link to a Teams post and isn't part of the Team?

hyper-neutrino

you get "this team is invite-only" page

apparently activating a custom close reason also requires multiple mods

caird coinheringaahing

Hmm, only one is listed in the close stats

DLosc

Wow, there's still a ton of two-letter sequences available for builtins in Pip.

hyper-neutrino

jelly still has single characters not mapped lol

DLosc

6:14 PM

It feels like there aren't that many because I keep running into existing ones when trying to come up with names for new ones. I guess some letters are just more common than others.

caird coinheringaahing

All of them dyads/quicks unfortunately :/

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino Same--Pip needs meanings for H, j, and p. That's one of the conditions I've set for myself before I can call it Version 1.0.

But I'm thinking of making p be "()", so that would be one off the list.

hyper-neutrino

wait, pip isn't in v1.0 yet? hasn't it been around for a while lol

DLosc

Over six years :)

hyper-neutrino

since 2015-04-20 at least

DLosc

6:18 PM

The other big thing I need to do before 1.0 is give Blocks a sensible string representation. RP{a+1} should be "{a+1}", not "{[Operator(+,ADD,2,32,L), Name(a), 1]}".

hyper-neutrino

cmc think of consonant sounds other than th b ch d f g h j k l m n p q(kw) r s t ts v w sh y z

that you wouldn't mind being part of the jelly translation

caird coinheringaahing

tr

astroide

tz

caird coinheringaahing

(and basically every other consonant followed by r, basically)

hyper-neutrino

oh wait. yeah. i forgot about that combination lol

Redwolf Programs

6:22 PM

Don't those ususally count as two phonemes though?

t and r?

att

th meaning θ (think)? can add ð (the)

hyper-neutrino

yeah but as long as it fits into one syllable it's fine

DLosc

So "onset consonant clusters," then.

hyper-neutrino

i am trying to make a bijection between 256 distinct syllables and jelly's codepage

@DLosc eh, i do not know enough about linguistics so i will assume that is correct :D

@att maybe. those are kinda similar so i might say they are equivalent

att

they're as similar as t and d, just they're written the same way in english

hyper-neutrino

6:23 PM

i don't want minor differences to make differences because like there isn't really context cuz it's just a random bytestring

actually true they aren't all that identical

i'll consider it

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino Note that if people aren't native speakers of English or one of a few other languages, they might have trouble with th.

hyper-neutrino

oh, true

att

it's a pretty uncommon sound among languages, yeah

hyper-neutrino

same reason i'm probably not gonna add mandarin X to it, because it's not part of english and might cause confusion

(idk the actual name of that sound)

att

this might help if you're looking for ideas ipachart.com

DLosc

6:26 PM

@hyper-neutrino I wouldn't mind IPA x, which I think is Mandarin h.

Commonly spelled either ch or kh in conlangs, I believe

hyper-neutrino

hm. sounds very similar to english h tho

DLosc

True

att

pinyin x is ɕ

hyper-neutrino

also idk what to assign to Q cuz now that i think about it it's kinda inconsistent and the consonant part of it is just K

since it's always followed by U so QU is just KU

DLosc

If you like consonant clusters, then you can add w and y (IPA j) after almost anything: bwa, bya, fwa, fya, nwa, nya, etc.

caird coinheringaahing

6:30 PM

> nya

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_uvular_plosive but English speakers would probably confuse it with k

hyper-neutrino

true

i probably could've just referred to a kana chart and stole all of the sounds and combination sounds from it lol

@DLosc hm. yeah to me that sounds too similar to k or g

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing gocomics.com/peanuts/1967/05/03

hyper-neutrino

thing is similar sounds in normal speech are fine cuz of context but here i'm just trying to enable producing a random string of sounds and each one needs to be distinct enough

att

kana would be a syllabary

hyper-neutrino

6:32 PM

i can read the sounds without needing to have the computer sound each one out unlike IPA tho :p

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino How do you feel about consonants at the ends of syllables?

att

as in, each is (C)+V

hyper-neutrino

hm... unsure.

jp has each as (C)+V and kr has each as (C)+V+(C) right?

DLosc

Japanese can also end with a nasal or double the first consonant of the following syllable.

hyper-neutrino

right

att

6:34 PM

korean is an alphabet

hyper-neutrino

right

oh i guess i can just make Q "ky" lol

so kya, kyu, etc

although kyi doesn't work so well so i will need to select a different vowel set for consistency

i think certain consonants at the end are fine

although if two adjacent sounds end + start with the same consonant would it get confusing?

or rather, would a ka and ak a get confusing

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino I'd recommend forcing every syllable to start with a consonant.

caird coinheringaahing

Isn't that what emphasis is for?

hyper-neutrino

@DLosc that could work - i kinda wanted lone vowels to be the digraph markers but this makes sense too

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino Easier to parse that way. ;)

hyper-neutrino

6:38 PM

true :p

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino If you limit the ending consonants to a small set, it won't get confusing. Pick one nasal, one stop, and one fricative, and if their pronunciation assimilates to the following consonant, it'll still be clear enough which is which.

att

mfw forgot that python doesn't require () when assigning a tuple

hyper-neutrino

@DLosc ah, that's a good point. i am not familiar with those terms though xD is like, n nasal, k stop, f fricative? ?? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino Bingo!

att

yes

hyper-neutrino

6:42 PM

\o/

DLosc

I'd pick s for your default fricative; IIRC it's the most common one.

(Though not in every language)

hyper-neutrino

-sa and -s sa might get confusing? idk if that'd be clear enough

(same problem if i pick f of course, but)

DLosc

Yeah, one would have to really focus on pronouncing the consonant doubled.

att

@hyper-neutrino stops block then release airflow, like k, t, b

hyper-neutrino

i mean one possibility is to just have a disjoint set of starting and ending consonants

cuz if you have 10 consonants, then changing them from all starting to half starting half ending already gives you 2.5x the combinations

DLosc

6:45 PM

Ah, true that.

hyper-neutrino

although then i'll have more consonants that don't line up to their sounds - i want each of the 26 english letters to have a start consonant attached

right now i have

https://tio.run/##Fc1nUxpBGMDx9/spSNf03pu9926qndhiDqPBlOGwYECTKDOCSVRUwElEI1jY3bPM7B43h9/i2S9Cln3x@@/OPrNr622xWTtsqRRbZitslQVZiIXZHxZhm2yXHbAj4YzwCe7iP/gM93F/YpYv8iUe5mt8S4@acR7lcY4TXn5oOXHy1OkzZ89lZJ6/cPHS5StXr12/cfPW7Tt3791/8PDR4yfoaVZ2Tm5efkFhUXFJaVl5RWVVdU1tXX1DY1Pzs@cvXr563dLa1t7R2WV9093T29f/duCdYht8PzT8wT7y8dPnL2wPsS1GWIxtC3VHqLtC3RNqXKhYqESoVKiaUPeFeiDUQ0M1XIbbmDG8hl9EN40FI2hEjJgZTHqNyaTPmE0GkmFjPhlNxozQcSC5f@w0No49ZghoAPAY4CmgGHAQNDfgGOA9IE4gE6BNAfkJZAVIBLQgkEOgk6DtAJ01w4CdSJfjbn0O8KIu31nRt/QjIA4gY@YmkDkgfiABIH@BTgB1A/2W0IAuAx4HPA2UAA6B5gG8DTgOZBSIC7RpIL@ArALZYGt8D…

att

ng is a safe bet for final consonant, from an english perspective

ngn

@hyper-neutrino what sound is "j"?

hyper-neutrino

dzh? idk

ngn

other options: zh or y

caird coinheringaahing

6:47 PM

@hyper-neutrino I was trying to figure out how that worked before seeing it wasn't Jelly :/

hyper-neutrino

l o l

idk if i can make y a consonant on its own which is what i currently have mapped to y

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino I like how all the vowels are Cr.

hyper-neutrino

i might drop certain vowels (like "i" (ee)) and that way allow like kya, nya, etc

@DLosc i also tried to pick the lexicographically closest consonant to assign for mnemonic reasons

att

@hyper-neutrino in IPA y is a vowel :')

hyper-neutrino

e.g. I is close to H and J but those don't make sense, so K => kr

DLosc

6:49 PM

@hyper-neutrino Just noticed that, yeah.

hyper-neutrino

@att oh now that i think about it if i do combinations like kya and nya then i am basically just making it a double-vowel combination

ngn

"v" vs "w" may be hard to distinguish in some parts of the world

hyper-neutrino

that's a good point

att

if you're familiar with pinyin it corresponds to ü

Redwolf Programs

Add lots of click consonants :p

DLosc

6:51 PM

@RedwolfPrograms I can pronounce about four different clicks. I have no idea how some languages have dozens of them.

Redwolf Programs

Near a hundred in some

No idea how lol

att

@hyper-neutrino yeah, approximants like english y, w are kinda between vowels and consonants

hyper-neutrino

yeah... i may just drop them and replace them with clear vowel sounds. idk

if we require every sound to end with a consonant then it becomes clear

Redwolf Programs

What's this for?

DLosc

Fun ^_^

hyper-neutrino

6:54 PM

if you hear just one consonant sound, you know the previous sound ends with and the next sound starts with the same thing

@RedwolfPrograms making jelly pronounceable :D

Redwolf Programs

You're not going to be able to worry about accessibility for that lol

Why's that even a concern

hyper-neutrino

well this is clearly a very serious and important project

also if sounds are too similar it's easy to get them confused which is much worse in a language without context where every individual byte must be conveyed exactly correctly

DLosc

^

Redwolf Programs

Are you napping byes to syllables or phonemes?

hyper-neutrino

i'm awake right now

ok but typo jokes aside, syllables i think?

well, definitely not phonemes

Redwolf Programs

6:56 PM

On mobile lol

hyper-neutrino

F

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino Now that I think of it, what this really calls for is a 256-character version of the NATO phonetic alphabet.

hyper-neutrino

see this'd be easier if we allow tonality and just instantly quadruple the available sounds for free

Redwolf Programs

Oh, syllables should be doable without

Approximants

hyper-neutrino

@DLosc well sure but then we are just naming each symbol lol

att

6:58 PM

@hyper-neutrino why settle for four

hyper-neutrino

@RedwolfPrograms definitely possible but i want to make it as nice to remember as you can really get it

Redwolf Programs

Even 8 consonants would work easily

hyper-neutrino

@att true. cantonese has 6 right? and other languages might have more than i don't know about

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino As someone who doesn't speak any tonal languages, I might be able to handle two tones (high and low).

Redwolf Programs

N, T, K, B, D, G, S, Sh

Then four vowels

That's 256

DLosc

7:00 PM

@RedwolfPrograms How's that? You've got 32 consonant-vowel combos, where's the other factor of 8 coming from?

hyper-neutrino

ending

DLosc

Oh, got it.

Redwolf Programs

8 consonants, 4 vowels, 8 consonants

CVC

hyper-neutrino

i mean, making a bijection between sounds and 256 is quite easy but i want to make it not just an arbitrary map

DLosc

@RedwolfPrograms That does run into the same pronounceability problem we were talking about before--trying to distinguish among s, sh, ssh, shs, ss, and shsh for example. Unless the ending consonants are a different 8 consonants from the leading consonants.

hyper-neutrino

7:01 PM

thoughts on this? one way i can avoid ending consonants from being confusing is synonymizing -d and -t for example

so the same symbol ad can become atda or adta depending on the next symbol

Redwolf Programs

You could replace S and Sh with M and F for ending ones I guess

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino Those seem hard to pronounce/keep straight. Assimilation is going to tend to make them into atta and adda.

hyper-neutrino

true

distinguishing ata and atta in jp can get a bit confusing at times - when my friend is talking about readings sometimes i need to stop him and ask him to say it more clearly

then again, will anyone really be able to speak this quickly xD

att

with practice, why not

hyper-neutrino

mhm

ngn

7:05 PM

@hyper-neutrino you could add diphthongs

DLosc

7:17 PM

Hm. What if normal, hooked, dot above, and dot below were each a different vowel; then lowercase could be the plain vowel, and uppercase could be a diphthongized version of that vowel? Specific diphthong varying based on which base vowel it is.

Alternately, case could be represented by other pairs of vowel features: short/long, tense/lax, two different tones...

Or, for better redundancy (which is good for retrieving a message from a noisy signal), more than one of the above

E.g. lowercase = short lax vowel with low tone, uppercase = long tense vowel with high tone

hyper-neutrino

that's what i was thinking (or similar) (and why i wanted each of the 26 letters to have a distinct consonant)

so we need six vowels (or another thing we could do is a vowel + an ending consonant combination, but that might consume too many available combinations) for (lowercase, uppercase) x (normal, dot above, dot below)

Neil

7:33 PM

@felipa that's very obfuscated if you ask me. what it's doing is this: 1) swap a and b if a< b 2) swap c and d if c<d 3) swap ab and cd if a<c [a is now in top 2, so can't be the median] 4) swap b and e if b<e 5) if b<c then max(c,e) else max(b,d)

att

couldn't you do voiced/unvoiced consonant as well?

hyper-neutrino

like k vs g?

att

right

hyper-neutrino

i'm just including them as separate consonants

hyper-neutrino

7:49 PM

oh m and n might be a bit close together

have an initial draft here, just have the letters set so far

Neil

@Adám Retina, 4 bytes: \G0, (i.e. count of leading 0s)

felipa

@Neil but optimal it seems

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