The Nineteenth Byte

AviFS

8:06 PM

Q: Are submissions officially allowed to take input in the footer?

Neil

sure, but I had to translate it just to verify that

hyper-neutrino

do you have an example @avi

it might depend on how the language processes things

AviFS

Writing it up

hyper-neutrino

what language and do you have a minimum example of how you'd take input and give output

AviFS

In ///, there is no input, and every submission in that language, and in the examples on the esolang wiki, takes it in the footer

///

It's never been a source of controversy before on /// answers

But it occurs to me we've never really said it's okay, and I have a case in mind where people will definitely call it cheating

hyper-neutrino

8:08 PM

oh if it's standard then yeah. /// doesn't have real input so it is acceptable to insert it into the code

AviFS

You're saying it's ok iff there isn't another way to take input?

caird coinheringaahing

If the language has no method of input, insertion into the source code is allowed by default

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing If and only if?

hyper-neutrino

... more or less, basically. like, if your program has no way to input, then we allow putting it in the source code, but otherwise, you can't because that's the definition of a snippet

caird coinheringaahing

Yes, iff

AviFS

8:09 PM

@hyper-neutrino I see, thanks

Thanks caird

Well, I have a submission technically following all of that, which has a high probability of being downvoted to oblivion

I'll post it now

rak1507

wow, 888 666 777

hyper-neutrino

o.O

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS You're not allowed to send another message, sorry :P

user

@rak1507 Also 111 :P

rak1507

oh yeah

user

8:14 PM

Time to add 3 more statistics there so that AviFS can get all 9 of them :P

caird coinheringaahing

Here's a link to the meta default for you @AviFS :)

ngn

@user and 109 113 are consecutive primes

user

Ooh, nice

A message that AviFS is our Lord and savior

DLosc

113 is a special number.

hyper-neutrino

cmc - who in this room has the highest this week, last week, per week, and per day (dailies are too volatile to be worth anything IMO) (also definition of "in this room" can either be people present here right now or people who have notable activity here since some active users like lyxal, redwolf, and adam aren't in the room right now)

user

8:18 PM

Watch this room get spammed with screenshots of chat profiles :P

caird coinheringaahing

I'm very high: 979, 1.2k, 1.1k and 152

user

HN has 2.8, 2.3, 2.3, and 367

caird coinheringaahing

I've also sent exactly 49602 all time chat messages (49604 now) :P

hyper-neutrino

i have 2.8k, 2.3k, 2.3k, and 367, which indicates i need to get a life

caird coinheringaahing

@user I prefer to think of it as I have a lot to say :P

user

8:20 PM

snout -> pig -> sus

hyper-neutrino

⍝

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino You are most frequently in the room of all users

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/240/…

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing although IIRC DJ has the ability to take that away from me by sending like one message

user

May 28 at 16:57, by caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino The diamond does that in fewer bytes :P

@hyper-neutrino Hasn't DJ sent some messages here?

(recently, I imean)

caird coinheringaahing

8 days ago

user

8:22 PM

Oh, do you need to be active in the past week?

caird coinheringaahing

Of the users currently in this room, me and HN have sent almost an order of magnitude more messages than anyone else (HN: 41234, me: 31191, then its totallyhuman: 13821, user: 11000, and everyone else is <10k)

Exact totals valid as of 4 minutes ago :P

hyper-neutrino

(and this is just on this account - i don't suppose you factored in my account history)

caird coinheringaahing

No, I didn't (and I don't think I can)

Hyper has (with his current account) sent 2.2% of all messages in TNB :P

hyper-neutrino

how'd you count anyway

caird coinheringaahing

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/240/the-nineteenth-byte

Little number at the bottom right of a user's card

hyper-neutrino

8:26 PM

..oh

caird coinheringaahing

I very much want to clear all these stars :P

hyper-neutrino

...what the hell happened there o.O

caird coinheringaahing

Apr 2 '15 at 18:41, by Geobits

I leave for 40 minutes and you guys trash the place. I'm calling all your parents.

AviFS

... Sorry guys. Here's 889

@cairdcoinheringaahing I held it in as long as I could

Wait... it's still at 888

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS Fair play, I didn't actually expect you to :P

@AviFS Reload?

hyper-neutrino

8:33 PM

@AviFS shouldiblamecaching.com

AviFS

I did, it's odd

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing lmao I speek to much

hyper-neutrino

@AviFS no 888 is even

AviFS

@hyper-neutrino haha, that's amazing

user

*groans*

caird coinheringaahing

8:34 PM

@hyper-neutrino Avi's joking :P

AviFS

@hyper-neutrino you're on the ball today

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing nO, tHeY'Re NoT JoKiNg, tHeY'Re AvI

AviFS

So I came to ask, how in hell's name do you find all answers in a given language?

caird coinheringaahing

@user wow such original, very not what I expected :P

AviFS

what can i say

i'm a mainstream kiddo

basic b*tch

oh wait

user

8:35 PM

@AviFS Offer up a goat to the SQL god, realize you're bad at queries, then get someone to do it for you

AviFS

i thought you were replying to me, lmao

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS SEDE might work, but we don't have a standard answer format, so it doesn't get all of them

@AviFS Why I edited :P

AviFS

@user I couldn't find any such query :(

user

AviFS is a b⍺s⍳⊂ b⍳t⊂h confirmed

caird coinheringaahing

Let me grab a query

AviFS

8:36 PM

Thanks, sorry for the lameness

Catching TIO copy/pasted submissions is more than plenty!

hyper-neutrino

anyone who knows how to write sql clearly has sold their soul to the devil

user

You could also train a deep neural network using blockchain and make it run using cryptocurrency

@hyper-neutrino The devil wouldn't accept such corrupted souls

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS good enough

If you remove the and Posts.OwnerUserId = ##UserId##, it'll just get all of them

...I have no idea why that uses an inner join

user

The user who made it must be a masochist

caird coinheringaahing

yes, the user who is not me who made it

AviFS

8:40 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Thanks, that's what I did

But how do you save the fork?

caird coinheringaahing

A better one

@AviFS Click "permalink" underneath the editor

AviFS

Hey @LuisMendo!!

Luis Mendo

o/

AviFS

Sounds promising, but no 'permalink' search results

Don't see anything

Doesn't matter so much, though

Actually, for ///, the first one got 229, and the second one got only 224 @cairdcoinheringaahing

Wait

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS /// is a bit of a weird one, as links can end with that and be included

AviFS

8:44 PM

Yes, confirmed

It is... it's annoying

caird coinheringaahing

AviFS

Oh, you have to run it first!

Thanks

Okay... ready?

Here's the highly unpopular answer

@cairdcoinheringaahing & @hyper-neutrino

hyper-neutrino

> unofficial mods

caird coinheringaahing

I'm an "unofficial mod"?

rak1507

'You may use any language except for /// itself'

AviFS

8:53 PM

I think so...

caird coinheringaahing

> official and unofficial mods

AviFS

@rak1507 F***

You're kidding me, lmao

hyper-neutrino

...

rak1507

lol

AviFS

I definitely spend ages writing that up...

rak1507

8:53 PM

I'd delete it while you can

AviFS

And collecting my evidence

caird coinheringaahing

@rak1507 You can always delete answers (barring locks)

hyper-neutrino

freehand red circle ftw

caird coinheringaahing

very good, that makes it official :P

rak1507

@cairdcoinheringaahing I mean before he gets -3749

hyper-neutrino

8:54 PM

even then deleting it just reverts that anyway

AviFS

lkejfasfdjaoiewrhnfckalnclwur

hyper-neutrino

(not the votes, but the rep)

AviFS

ugh

att

somehow I spent a few minutes browsing documentation yesterday without noticing PermutationListQ existed

AviFS

I really have to start sharing, before I spend ages on the explanation

hyper-neutrino

8:54 PM

lol

caird coinheringaahing

Unlucky there @AviFS :/

AviFS

Do I havvvvveeeeee to?

att

@AviFS or reading

AviFS

:P

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS You'll get downvoted if you don't :P

hyper-neutrino

8:55 PM

here's the thing right - people aren't gonna steal your solution if you give it away here, because a) that's rude and most people here are nice (enough at least) and b) they will get spammed with downvotes for stealing answers if it's obvious they just took it from you and c) i may or may not choose to send some nuclear warheads their way

AviFS

@att The title said it all, the post is way long & it was in the middle. Soo not fair :(

hyper-neutrino

also if you define "moderator" as any community member with moderation task abilities via reputation, then caird is officially a mod. if you define "moderator" by the title and diamond, caird is officially not :p there isn't really an in-between, caird is officially a "moderator" user via privileges rewarded by the system (and one of the most active ones too)

caird coinheringaahing

I'm with Avi here, the post is far too long and needs golfing :P

AviFS

I think that's what I meant. Take the flattery already :p

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Therefore, I'm 1/2 an official mod :P

hyper-neutrino

8:57 PM

:hmmm:

AviFS

Well... it has +1/0 so far, that's awkward

Was it one of you?

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Which half? Left or right? :P

AviFS

Maybe I'll just wait and see if anyone notices

I can also edit out that rule :p

hyper-neutrino

i don't think you have enough rep for that

what was it, 2k?

AviFS

(I don't actually have 2k rep, but with your help anything is possible...)

caird coinheringaahing

8:58 PM

It's all fun and games, but I will happily rollback, and downvote

AviFS

I know, I know

Are deleted posts saved somewhere?

hyper-neutrino

yeah they just get a "deleted" status applied they don't actually go anywhere

AviFS

Oh awesome, thanks

hyper-neutrino

if you delete it you can still see it there. if you have 10k rep you can see all deleted posts everywhere (otherwise you can only see your own posts and deleted questions if you had an answer)

AviFS

Done

In that case, I should've deleted while at +1/0 :p

hyper-neutrino

9:00 PM

nah rep is reverted

AviFS

I know, but then I look better haha

user

Including bounties :(

hyper-neutrino

lol

caird coinheringaahing

Unless it's 60 days old and scored positively :P

AviFS

And I should've left a comment on why

hyper-neutrino

9:00 PM

^^

user

Why not edit in a comment explaining why?

AviFS

I'll undelete and add that

hyper-neutrino

you can just edit in a message

caird coinheringaahing

I think you can just edit it while deleted

hyper-neutrino

although rep lost from downvoting an answer is restored if it's deleted no matter how old, I believe

or maybe that's just due to it being negatively scored and thus discarding all vote reputation

caird coinheringaahing

9:01 PM

@hyper-neutrino Can confirm

AviFS

Hey stop downvoting

:(

I'm just adding the comment

caird coinheringaahing

I've DVed and flagged old, positive invalid answers and had the rep refunded to me

hyper-neutrino

well, your undeletion prompted whoever upvoted to flip it :p

@cairdcoinheringaahing what about really old downvotes?

caird coinheringaahing

As in, the vote itself is 60 days old?

AviFS

Alright, done

hyper-neutrino

9:03 PM

yeah, like if you downvote, wait 60 days, and the positively scored post is removed

caird coinheringaahing

I don't think that matters. If you upvote something old today that gets deleted tomorrow, I think they keep the rep

AviFS

@hyper-neutrino >:{

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing huh.. okay, good to know then

AviFS

I think this was an example of the XY problem, haha

I asked "how do you find all submissions in a given language, and then how do you link to it"

It would've saved us a lot of time if I'd asked whether my submission was legal instead, haha

Still a useful thing to have, though

caird coinheringaahing

> reputation earned for posts with a score of 3 or higher, and where the post has been visible on the site for at least 60 days, is retained. This does not include reputation lost from giving bounties on them

Source

hyper-neutrino

9:07 PM

ah

apparently if a question is really popular it can require up to 10 votes before normal users can vtd it

(source)

caird coinheringaahing

Shame that it's capped at 10 :P

hyper-neutrino

yeah i want to see a post with like 50 undelete votes on it

oh wait... i can if i wanted to :p

caird coinheringaahing

QFT would take 114 votes to delete, "Produce 2014" would take 100 exactly :P

hyper-neutrino

lol

caird coinheringaahing

I think we have enough users to do that :P

Ok, we have 154 10k+ users (ignoring the 4 mods), so we'd need ~74% of them to VTD QFT :P

hyper-neutrino

9:17 PM

(if it weren't capped)

caird coinheringaahing

Well, yeah :P

A username

Btw I downvoted the make 1/2 popcon, and didn't lose any rep - what's up with that?

caird coinheringaahing

You only lose rep on answer downvotes

AviFS

I sincerely hope this doesn't also get downvoted to oblivion

This is why I was asking about erroring yesterday, but I still feel good about it

caird coinheringaahing

That's much more borderline than the Interpret /// one

I'd suggest writing up a meta discussion about it tbh

AviFS

9:29 PM

Yeah, that's what I said I'd do yesterday, but I have to go for now

caird coinheringaahing

o/ I'd be happy to do it if you'd like a consensus quickly

AviFS

Given that I can easily write another implementation that uses recursion to eventually stack overflow, it feels useless to have it not count though imo

No worries! It'd be great if you did, but I'm also happy to when I get back, I think

⍤/ Be nice to my submission in the meantime, please

A username

ø/

caird coinheringaahing

One interesting thing: if we define "error" as "returns a non-zero exit code", then TIO is an interpreter that errors if it outputs too much (Try it online!), or if it runs for 60+ seconds (Try it online!)

rak1507

I feel like halting/not halting has been an acceptable form of boolean IO in the past

AviFS

9:37 PM

Ooh, that's neat!

Boolean I/O, yes

rak1507

but I'm not 100% sure

AviFS

But not erroring

@rak1507 I am, but it's different

caird coinheringaahing

5

Q: Can Halting be considered output?

I am currently designing a language that cannot halt unless it all of its memory is cleared, this means for any practical application it has no output whatsoever. However when the program does halt it does output HALTED. In languages otherwise incapable of traditional output can halting and non...

AviFS

@cairdcoinheringaahing I've officially decided I would like to write it when I get back, haha

But I don't own the idea; you're welcome to also!

caird coinheringaahing

@AviFS No problem, feel free to use my TIO argument

AviFS

9:38 PM

Thanks caird, will def include!

Still 0/0; we'll see what people think on this one

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh... I swear that was a consensus elsewhere though...

Oh wait, sorry

It was on erroring as boolean output

Shoot, well that's a counterargument...

If implementations timeout as an error, then halting<timeout & not halting is a valid decision problem output

caird coinheringaahing

I think the argument is basically "Does TIO count as a separate interpreter, to the point where behaviour specific to TIO can make an invalid answer valid?"

AviFS

Then again, I don't see how you can possibly tell me that stackoverflow isn't an error

@cairdcoinheringaahing But if I, say, make another implementation for /// that does stack overflow, people aren't going to download my implementation and run it

They'll still just test it on TIO for convenience

caird coinheringaahing

Because, if it doesn't count, then your answer is invalid per that above consensus. But if it does, then your answer is valid

AviFS

So no one will even look at it

They'll just say, it exists therefore it's okay

But of course it can exist, that's trivial

caird coinheringaahing

Basically, yes

AviFS

9:48 PM

So requiring someone to write the implementation feels a bit useless and nitpicky

caird coinheringaahing

I think that TIO should count as a separate interpreter FWIW (because it is a separate interpreter, and has the behaviour you're looking for, plus can be easily "trivialised" by writing another interpreter than just mimics that behavious), but I'm also conscious of potential counter arguments

totallyhuman

10:17 PM

i recently rediscovered an old sandbox post of mine and i was wondering if anybody had opinions on what the output should look like

i initially thought it should just be a 2d list representation of the board

rak1507

list of lists / flat list / matrix / whatever

totallyhuman

but an alternative is a list of coordinates

and i was wondering if one or the other is better, or perhaps both as an option

rak1507

could do both

DLosc

11:06 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing I agree, TIO is an interpreter. A language is defined by an implementation, and if people can post solutions in C that require a particular compiler on a particular architecture, I don't see why "/// (TIO)" is any different.

lyxal

11:19 PM

@Adám I tried searching through there for join on newlines, but I wasn't able to find anything. Hence why I asked here instead.

hyper-neutrino

11:31 PM

tip 1: don't use unnecessary keywords and don't pluralize things, like on is largely unnecessary so just join newlines, and you don't need to pluralize

tip 2: while you're searching, type slowly so if results who up with partial entries you'll see them - for example, if you were typing join on newlines, you would've seen join on newline show one entry which disappears when you type the s :pensive:

New Posts

11:52 PM

0

Q: Find the Erdős–Woods origin

Consider, for a given positive integer \$k\$, the sequence \$(a, a+1, a+2, ..., a+k)\$, where \$a\$ is some positive integer. Is there ever a pair \$a, k\$ such that for each element \$a+i\$ in the sequence, either \$\gcd(a, a+i)\$ or \$\gcd(a+i, a+k)\$ are greater than 1? This was investigated b...

code-golf math number-theory

hyper-neutrino

@NewPosts time to suffer from trying to figure out how # works again

caird coinheringaahing

Have fun :P

I was seriously considering making it restricted-time and requiring output for \$k = 34\$, but I remembered how much I hate competing in restricted time so offered a bounty instead

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