The Nineteenth Byte

thejonymyster

3:06 PM

is that to say that it's ridiculously sensitive, or is it's range of sensitivity actually large?

inclined to believe the former, but i have no context that precludes the latter :P

i.e. im noob

Aaroneous Miller

Nitrogen triiodide

Nitrogen triiodide is an inorganic compound with the formula NI3. It is an extremely sensitive contact explosive: small quantities explode with a loud, sharp snap when touched even lightly, releasing a purple cloud of iodine vapor; it can even be detonated by alpha radiation. NI3 has a complex structural chemistry that is difficult to study because of the instability of the derivatives. == Structure of NI3 and its derivatives == Nitrogen triiodide was first characterized by Raman spectroscopy in 1990 when it was prepared by an ammonia-free route. Boron nitride reacts with iodine monofluoride...

Skidsdev

> To highlight the sensitivity of the compound, it is usually detonated by touching it with a feather but even the slightest air current, laser light, or other movement can cause detonation. Nitrogen triiodide is also notable for being the only known chemical explosive that detonates when exposed to alpha particles and nuclear fission products.

thejonymyster

Wow

how do you transport it :D

Skidsdev

you don't

when it detonates it decomposes into a cloud of iodine gas, which then stains everything purple

thejonymyster

i think that its funny as hell

Skidsdev

3:12 PM

> Nitrogen triiodide has no practical commercial value due to its extreme shock sensitivity, making it impossible to store, transport, and utilize for controlled explosions.

you synthesize it, and then you detonate it wherever it was synthesized

Redwolf Programs

I mean I guess maybe you could have something sort of like a binary chemical weapon, where you have two parts that mix to form the NI3 and then you detonate it, but I doubt that'd be possible/practical

Skidsdev

cool fiction material though

thejonymyster

plus it only works on people allergic to purple

Skidsdev

I mean it still explodes

thejonymyster

psh

Skidsdev

3:21 PM

in sufficient quantities it's still gunna blow a hole in whatever you want to blow a hole in

thejonymyster

if you can make sufficient quantities without it blowing up first

Redwolf Programs

You'd probably have to worry about it "fizzling", i.e. just enough of the two mixing for it to make a smaller explosion and destroy all the ingredients

Oh ninja'd lol

> if you can make sufficient quantities without it blowing up first

thejonymyster

to be fair, that was based on intuition, not actual scientific knowledge

so its good to have the backed up version

Redwolf Programs

I have no actual scientific knowledge either lol

I just took the term used in nuclear weapons

Skidsdev

Also Iodine is a skin irritant, so everyone's allergic to it :P

thejonymyster

3:24 PM

but i got all my purple shots

Skidsdev

well it's not actually an allergy

Redwolf Programs

Problem: Iodine is a skin irritant
Solution: Lye removes skin

Can't irritate skin you don't have :p

PyGamer0

chemistry class?

also does anyone count on heir fingers using base 3?

Skidsdev

from single exposure, OSHA classifies it as a category 3 hazard to the respiratory system and central nervous system

Redwolf Programs

@PyGamer0 In what way?

Like finger fully extended, finger partially folded, finger not at all extended?

thejonymyster

3:28 PM

its a bit clumsy if you ask me

its easy to misplace a partially folded finger as a closed finger

as the hand naturally tries to relax

Skidsdev

also not everyone can control their pinky independently of their ring finger

thejonymyster

that too

Redwolf Programs

It has all of the same issues as the binary one as well

thejonymyster

plus you cant get the two extra digits from hand orientation

even though thatss just a me thing haha

Redwolf Programs

If you could manage to do it though, it'd give you the ability to count to over 6500

And well into the 10ks if you use the hand orientation thing

Skidsdev

3:33 PM

I count individual neurons in my brain. I can count to 2**86billion

thejonymyster

where do you store the number you're counting? does something weird happen when you count those

Skidsdev

don't worry about it

thejonymyster

if you think about your brain is that a quine

Wezl

it's only a quine if you clone yourself

Skidsdev

@thejonymyster and if you don't think about it, it isn't

thejonymyster

3:40 PM

are there any machines that can build copies of themselves

quine in real :O {Wow!)

Redwolf Programs

Do you count humans/viruses/turtles as machines?

thejonymyster

humans dont make identical copies, thatd be messed up if that happened

Redwolf Programs

Hmm true

thejonymyster

turtles also probably dont but i cant be sure,

viruses might, id believe it

Redwolf Programs

Asexually reproducing mobs then

Skidsdev

3:41 PM

bacteria and possibly viruses

Redwolf Programs

Bacteria, hydras, some plants

Probably more

Skidsdev

actually no, not viruses

thejonymyster

when you say mobs i imagine like, a giant mob of people lol

just like, growing into a bigger mob

Skidsdev

viruses don't reproduce, they trick other cells into producing more of them

Redwolf Programs

I couldn't think of the word organism so I just used the minecraft word lol

thejonymyster

3:42 PM

@Skidsdev ~~so like a chain quine~~

Skidsdev

gunna say, when you said mob I thought somebody's been playing too much minecraft

Redwolf Programs

@Skidsdev So...our cells are the compiler? :D

That's actually pretty cool

pxeger

@Skidsdev Cells don't reproduce, they just trick chemicals into producing more of them

thejonymyster

thats why you dont let the user execute arbitrary code

Redwolf Programs

Anyone have some cool viruses I can infect myself with? I wanna be a compiler.

5

thejonymyster

3:43 PM

sanitize your inputs and your body

just made a virus that computes fib(n)

Skidsdev

@pxeger But they produce those chemicals

thejonymyster

actually how fun would that be if we tricked viruses into doing calculations

Redwolf Programs

Luckily I already downloaded and compiled the source code for some existing viruses to ready my anti-virus software

thejonymyster

thats the scifi future i want

Skidsdev

@RedwolfPrograms some people say I'm a virus

Redwolf Programs

3:47 PM

Do we have a challenge for sexually repoducing quines?

7

Skidsdev

uhh

Redwolf Programs

Ones that when you run both of them in some way produce a program that's a mix of the two and can interbreed with the others in the species?

As opposed to standard asexually reproducing quines that theoretically produce an identical copy

Skidsdev

we have like rotating quines, where quine A outputs quine B which outputs quine A

thejonymyster

@RedwolfPrograms that sounds very hard to do but also very awesome sauce

there were extra spaces for tone reasons in that message that got removed u_u

Redwolf Programs

I'm going to put that in the sandbox as soon as I can figure out how it would work

@thejonymyster NBSP ftw :p

thejonymyster

3:51 PM

good to know, ty

@RedwolfPrograms maybe program A outputs half of program C, and program B produces the other half of C

Skidsdev

I'm moving at record pace reimplementing these built-ins

averaging one per 2 mins

Redwolf Programs

Nice!

I had to do that once with Ash (a golfing language I was making), and it wasn't fun :p

Skidsdev

@thejonymyster what does program C produce?

thejonymyster

tjats what im thinking of

Redwolf Programs

It'd probably work the same way I guess, returning a random half of it

Skidsdev

3:53 PM

C produces A, but when the source is reversed and ran it produces B

thejonymyster

wait, random halves is interesting

Redwolf Programs

And when you combine it with either A or B's C, it'd make a fourth one

Skidsdev

oh god

so what does D produce? :P

thejonymyster

that seems unethical

Redwolf Programs

Oh no...

Maybe we should start with a bigger breeding population

Skidsdev

3:53 PM

I think we're stuck in a recursion with no base case

okay here me out.
A's half of C produces B, B's half of C produces A, the full C produces C

thejonymyster

thats sick, as in awesome

Redwolf Programs

A's C plus B's C should produce program C that behaves the same as A and B would I think

thejonymyster

right it feels a bit different

Skidsdev

but A and B don't behave the same as eachother

Redwolf Programs

Where it'd return a random allele of itself

Lemme draw a diagram of what I mean

Skidsdev

3:55 PM

I dunno I think we're starting to sacrifice challenge quality in the interest of sticking to the theme too hard

Redwolf Programs

I think it could be cool though

Although your idea seems really cool

thejonymyster

how about this, A outputs randomly either C or D, B outputs randomly either E or F, and CE, DE, CF, and DF all have to.. do something? lol

Redwolf Programs

Yeah. To fit the theme all they'd do it return a random one of C/D/E/F that they have, but that seems a bit boring

Could be interesting though, I really don't know tbh

thejonymyster

i think that skidsdevs version is interesting enough to start with

and the more thematic one can be its own challenge

Skidsdev

CMQ: Braingolf has multiple stacks that you can switch between and manipulate. You can also create new stacks, and merge stacks into the 0th stack. The 0th stack cannot be merged or deleted. Currently the 0th stack is referred to as the 'master' stack, but I don't like this wording. What should I call it instead? Base stack? Main stack? First stack? Something else?

Wezl

3:59 PM

tmw U+202e makes the page crash

thejonymyster

hard stack? main/base r good though idk

honestly if i were making it id call it like, the 0 stack lol

not a good name though

Wezl

nvm the page is just crashing randomly :\

Redwolf Programs

Where there's four possible outcomes for any two pairs of programs

thejonymyster

what does G do?

Redwolf Programs

Same thing as its ancestors, picks one of B_1 and C_1 to output

They'd just continue to form new ones forever

thejonymyster

4:04 PM

oh i see

Skidsdev

I went with 'main stack'

thejonymyster

(^_^)b

Redwolf Programs

Main stack is good, +1

Huh, never seen that emoticon before ^^

thejonymyster

wait, A and B never go together

Redwolf Programs

They could though

This is just an example

thejonymyster

4:07 PM

ah, gotcha

so only 3 main parents though?

Redwolf Programs

I don't know how many would be required

thejonymyster

not a bad amount, just wanna make sure i follow

ah

Redwolf Programs

Maybe it could be part of the scoring, although an infinite amount would be easily possible I'd imagine

Maybe an exponetial sort of thing, where making two programs gives you a score multiplier of 1/2, three is 3/4, four is 7/8, and so on, and if you have the potential to make infinitely many with your approach, the multiplier would still just be 1

thejonymyster

ah, nice

will it be code-golf too?

Redwolf Programs

I don't know. Could be, I guess.

thejonymyster

4:10 PM

it just seems like thatd be hard to factor into the score haha

or uh

i guess actually what i mean is, if that number is a multiplier, it needs something to be multiplying

and if it isnt a multiplier, everyone will go for score 1

though i guess you should anyway :P

Redwolf Programs

Ooh, I like the new profile page design. I never actually looked at it until now.

thejonymyster

i dont really get the difference

Redwolf Programs

It used to look wayyy different

thejonymyster

then i guess i never saw it before the update

Redwolf Programs

It's been a gradual set of changes

thejonymyster

4:14 PM

well call me a frog and boil me slowly, i guess i just didnt notice

Redwolf Programs

Anyone have any ideas for what the quine thing should be called? Preferably something that couldn't be interpreted as nsfw

thejonymyster

but also ive only been here a few weeks, its possible i didnt see the starting form

hmm

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms Although...clickbait is an effective strategy for upvotes :p

thejonymyster

quineage (lineage)? kinda bad

something with kin -> quine but also bad

Skidsdev

genetic quines?

thejonymyster

4:16 PM

thats good yea lol

Redwolf Programs

Yeah I like that!

Thanks

Skidsdev

I like quineage but I think most people won't get it

thejonymyster

the pronunciation doesnt match, mainly

Skidsdev

yeah

pxeger

Synthetic biology

Synthetic biology (SynBio) is a multidisciplinary area of research that seeks to create new biological parts, devices, and systems, or to redesign systems that are already found in nature. It is a branch of science that encompasses a broad range of methodologies from various disciplines, such as biotechnology, genetic engineering, molecular biology, molecular engineering, systems biology, membrane science, biophysics, chemical and biological engineering, electrical and computer engineering, control engineering and evolutionary biology. Due to more powerful genetic engineering capabilities a...

Skidsdev

4:36 PM

> f - Pops the stack, pushes the absolute deltas of the stack

what the hell is an absolute delta

surely deltas are, by definition, relative

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Genetic Quines In this challenge, you'll create some programs which behave similarly to genes. When you run one, it will return one of its two "alleles" (a half of its source code), and concatenating any two alleles from your programs will result in a new, functioning program (which returns its o...

Redwolf Programs

@Skidsdev Absolute value maybe?

So [2 4 1] would be [2 3] not [2 -3] or [-3 2]

Skidsdev

@RedwolfPrograms oh maybe, lemme check the code

yep that's it

Aaroneous Miller

I just remembered another esolang idea I have yet to implement: StackAttack

Skidsdev

for i in range(0, len(stack)-1):
    newStack.append(abs(stack[i] - stack[i+1]))

thejonymyster

4:41 PM

@SandboxPosts maybe rephrase the formula so its a multiplier instead? might be less complex lol

Redwolf Programs

I did at first but it seemed more complex and arbitrary that way so idk

I'm thinking I should redo the formula used for that part

thejonymyster

fair

also, make sure to include an image description

Redwolf Programs

I did :p

thejonymyster

was about to say, idk how to check so if its there i wouldnt know haha

good :D

Redwolf Programs

I've had imgur blocked on my school wifi before, so I know the pain of having to rely on image descriptions :p

Aaroneous Miller

4:44 PM

When I was first testing out GPT-3, I used it to develop ideas for StackAttack. This is what I have so far: gist Not all of it makes perfect sense, but I feel like it could become a cool language if executed right.

Skidsdev

@AaroneousMiller that's broadly how braingolf does stacks

I was complaining to a friend that I spend more time making esolangs than I do golfing, and he said I just need to wait until I run out of esolang ideas. He then said:

"I came here to make esolangs and golf code, and I'm all out of esolangs"

Aaroneous Miller

Use GPT, then you won't run out of esolang ideas

esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas

Redwolf Programs

> A language based on the idea of communism. [...] There would be only one datatype that fits everything, so everything belongs to one single class.

lol

hyper-neutrino

> A Casino Viagra program language, where the programs are going to be caught by spam-filters and/or by anti-virus programs.

i.e. a programming language that causes CHQ to hate our entire site

Redwolf Programs

5:01 PM

We should make an IGS themed language

Call it DEWASCRIPT

Skidsdev

> A language that looks exactly like C, behaves like C but actually is not C

Redwolf Programs

How about a language that uses musical notes as code

Skidsdev

> the existing laws of physics appear to NOT be turing complete; if you try to do anything with infinity they will GET YOU!

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms Bonus points if the rickroll is something meaninful like HW or fizzbuzz

Skidsdev

@RedwolfPrograms so Fugue?

Redwolf Programs

5:07 PM

Oh nice

Skidsdev

All it does is calculate the interval between notes and map that to a Prelude instruction

it's as much a language as Vacui

hyper-neutrino

oh, prelude and fugue. that's funny.

it'd be interesting to see a language that takes music as its source code that doesn't just map it into something else and actually uses properties of the music itself

Skidsdev

Musical notes?

Redwolf Programs

If my knowledge of music wasn't limited to watching the first half of a few YT videos I'd write one

Skidsdev

Velato literally uses MIDI files as source code

Redwolf Programs

5:12 PM

Oh there's a whole music section of that page lol

esolangs.org/wiki/List_of_ideas#Music

Finites as Fredy's is one of the more cleverly named language I've seen

hyper-neutrino

the thing is just mapping either intervals to notes to commands just feels like yet another cheap brainfuck derivative so...

Redwolf Programs

Yeah

hyper-neutrino

it would be cool if you could compose chords and have that actually be meaningful somehow but that is also really difficult (i think)

Skidsdev

braingolf has an esolang wiki page and I don't remember if I wrote it. It's horribly outdated though

Redwolf Programs

Ths starboard does not currently paint me in the best light lol

hyper-neutrino

5:21 PM

~~pretty accurate representation~~

thejonymyster

@hyper-neutrino it looks like velato does just that? unless you mean something else

hyper-neutrino

oh, does look like it, that's cool

Skidsdev

> Notes played as chords are interpreted in the order the notes appear within the MIDI track, regardless of a zero duration between them.

this makes using a conventional midi editor to write Velato quite impractical

thejonymyster

i fail to see how?

Skidsdev

most midi editors will put simultaenous notes in whatever order they see fit in the file

thejonymyster

5:25 PM

ah, hm

ide bug

Skidsdev

some will put them in lowest to highest order, others in highest to lowest, some will put them in the order you input them.

thejonymyster

id say best is the last one, and then just have it display which is which

like beepbox and its derivs

imagine a velato ide though, getting sytnax errored in a midi editor lol

Skidsdev

> Depending on the compiler used, other intervals return syntax errors or are ignored.

thejonymyster

respectable

Skidsdev

Personally I would build a velato IDE on a compiler that ignores invalid intervals, to allow more freedom with the sound of the code

thejonymyster

5:28 PM

true yeah

Skidsdev

that said you can probably still cause syntax errors with valid intervals

or at least runtime errors

thejonymyster

would ctrl f to find things be out of the question

Skidsdev

oh god

thejonymyster

i wanna listen to the hello world so bad but im at workrrrk

Redwolf Programs

Do it anyway and stare your boss in the eyes the whole time

Skidsdev

5:31 PM

my boss'd probably find it interesting lol

Redwolf Programs

The key to a successful career is to assert your dominance, hunt rabbits for the rest of the pack, and prevent enemy packs from finding your den

thejonymyster

@RedwolfPrograms thats p much how it is here in the accounting office, yeah. i thought you didnt have a job

Redwolf Programs

I'm a redwolf remember

thejonymyster

and you program

your two defining features

Skidsdev

that's how it is in our software office too. The dev manager looks out for us, makes sure the other packs (teams) don't come after us, and makes sure we're cared for

Redwolf Programs

5:34 PM

Do you work together to make buffalo run off cliffs?

thejonymyster

yea, but we usually put it off til the end of the month

then its really a mad dash

Skidsdev

@RedwolfPrograms No because buffalo aren't native to this continent

thejonymyster

sequel to genetic quines: pack quines

Skidsdev

Don't give him ideas

Redwolf Programs

Wait didn't you say you were in canada? or am I misremembering lol

Skidsdev

5:35 PM

I am in Canada. Buffalo are native to Asia and Africa

Redwolf Programs

Wait what...

Skidsdev

you're thinking of North American Bison

Redwolf Programs

Ah

thejonymyster

what about Buffalo buffalo

or buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo? They cant be too far either

Redwolf Programs

I hear they buffalo Buffalo buffalo, but only if they're Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo

Skidsdev

5:37 PM

> With a population in excess of 60 million in the late 18th century, the species was down to just 541 animals by 1889.

:(

thejonymyster

oh shit

Skidsdev

> Recovery efforts expanded in the mid-20th century, with a resurgence to roughly 31,000 wild bison today, largely restricted to a few national parks and reserves.

:D

thejonymyster

oh shit

Redwolf Programs

@thejonymyster The buffalo or something else?

Skidsdev

American Bison

Redwolf Programs

5:39 PM

Oh, I was responding to thejonymyster

Skidsdev

oh

thejonymyster

the first was oh shit thats bad, the second was oh shit good job

Redwolf Programs

lol

thejonymyster

i joke to much

any progress on that formula for the quine thing?

cause personally i think its ready as is lol

Redwolf Programs

I was thinking maybe you'd add a fraction of your score, instead of multiplying something. That feels cleaner to me.

Like with two programs you'd add half your score, with three you'd add a quarter, with four you'd add an eighth

thejonymyster

5:44 PM

oh, clever!

that seems ideal yeah

Redwolf Programs

I'm going to leave it for a few days probably.

Added the new scoring rules though.

Skidsdev

is the goal of the scoring to encourage more programs or fewer?

Redwolf Programs

More

Neil

@thejonymyster how about A randomly produces the first half of either A and B and B randomly produces the second half?

Skidsdev

coming back to the Bison thing, how the heck did we know that there were >60m of them in the late 18th century?

thejonymyster

5:51 PM

@Neil makes sense yeah, but no longer fits the genetics thing. i like it though

@Skidsdev individual sightings i guess? lol idk anything about historical.. anything

i mean if its a confirmed amount today, theres a paper trail for it hopefully

Skidsdev

Maybe we determined that figure retroactively, using more recent techniques to determine how many there were

Redwolf Programs

Perhaps we know how much area they occupied and how many were typically in some unit of area

Skidsdev

@thejonymyster the only citation on that whole section is on the modern day figure of 30,000, which links to the IUCN red list of threatened species, which says there are 11,248-13,123 mature american bison in the world today

DLosc

uhh

thejonymyster

@Skidsdev \o/ {that is rather confusing!)

Skidsdev

5:55 PM

this is why we check wikipedia's sources!

thejonymyster

yea leave a note in the talk page mayybe?

Skidsdev

American Bison are categorized by the IUCN as Near-Threatened, which is only one step away from Least Concern

Redwolf Programs

Maybe there's lots of immature bison? who make jokes about other bisons' mothers?

thejonymyster

bison who buffalo bison? i cant believe it

@Skidsdev my favorite was when i found a wikipedia page with like 1 total citation for most of it, parts of the page appearing verbatim multiple times, and a sentence fragment that just got cut off mid thing

its been cleaned up a tiny bit since then, i had a link to it on my spotify though cause i thought it was so goofy

DLosc

CMQ: What's a term for the opposite of outgolfing? (Outgolfing = getting a better score than another submission; ??? = getting a worse score)

thejonymyster

5:58 PM

well, in general, whats the inverse term for out-x-ing

Skidsdev

@thejonymyster at the bottom of the wikipedia page for Nitrogen Triiodide, where it states that NI3 is the only known explosive that can be triggered by alpha radiation, there's a citation for that claim, and then a rebuttal saying that the claim is unverified, but that rebuttal is listed as citation needed

thejonymyster

@DLosc i think you either outgolf or are outgolfed, no secondary term

Skidsdev

@DLosc ingolfing?

Redwolf Programs

If the previous answer is the shorter one, it's hardly doing the outgolfing though

thejonymyster

@Skidsdev amazing

@RedwolfPrograms i disagree, i think outgolfing just means golfing better than someone

Redwolf Programs

5:59 PM

CMQ: Is there any term greater than "transformer ballistic firewall"?

Skidsdev

while it doesn't make much sense if you think of the in prefix as the word in, the antonym of out, it does kinda make sense if you think of it like the in prefix in "incompetent"

Redwolf Programs

"I'm pretty outcompetent"

user

@RedwolfPrograms ???

Redwolf Programs

It sounds so cool. Is there anything cooler?

I doubt it.

user

Lyxals fridge

Redwolf Programs

6:11 PM

I guess it probably is pretty cool, if not cold. It was launched into deep space by sustained nuclear bombardment.

DLosc

@RedwolfPrograms I dunno, but my favorite two names of world capitals are Ouagadougou and Bandar Seri Begawan.

Redwolf Programs

Is the first pronounced "oo-ga-doo-goo" or "ow-ga-dow-gow"?

emanresu A

@RedwolfPrograms Dynamic entropy

DLosc

@RedwolfPrograms wa-ga-doo-goo

emanresu A

@RedwolfPrograms I pronounce it oo-wagga-doo-goo

DLosc

6:13 PM

It's a French spelling

Redwolf Programs

Ah, makes sense

Actually it doesn't 'cause I have no idea how french spelling works but in theory it makes sense

Skidsdev

7:00 PM

Just had a wonderful presentation at work about some new C# features. More golfing material :D

Aaroneous Miller

8:13 PM

I decided that I was going to buckle down and implement one of my smaller esolang ideas, and then I realized that the spec didn't have any input or conditionals :/

thejonymyster

9:06 PM

@AaroneousMiller all the easier to implement

DLosc

@AaroneousMiller Eh, two of my esolangs don't have input. Lack of conditionals is a bigger issue.

Made any more progress with Acc!!, BTW?

user

@RedwolfPrograms I can't tell if this is a joke or not but multiple quines creating a new quine together would be quite cool

user

9:42 PM

Folks, it is with great pleasure that I announce this payload-capable Scala 3/Python polyglot. It is absolutely useless, but I couldn't resist showing off

DLosc

@user The main function took me a minute to figure out what was going on in Scala. Although, could it just be def main(x: Any): Unit = {}? (Not that it has to be golfed, I guess.)

user

Oh right, forgot Python let you do that

@DLosc You mean the one named main or the actual main method (m)?

DLosc

The former.

Well, probably both, actually.

user

Oh yeah, the extra newlines do make everything look weird

Better version (Scala)

Redwolf Programs

10:00 PM

@user Well then check out my sandboxed post :p

This

I just got an esolang idea

You have two programs, which you can jump between at will. That is the only control flow. Hitting the end of one jumps to the start of the other. You can modify the source code of the two programs while they're running.