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12:00 AM
As far as I am concerned, things I don't understand are not nice
Do you understand quantum mechanics?
Of course.
How about Galois theory?
I understood the tip of galois theory for about 1 semester
Where is this going?
12:02 AM
Nowhere in particular.
Somewhere mysterious?
Reminds me a bit of this
> Did C hurt you in the past? Emotionally? Do you want to talk about it? It's alright. – Martin Büttner♦
I always wondered what the Stack Exchange people are actually like. This is the one site where I'm scared to ask (or answer) anything.
Don't be
12:03 AM
Worst case, we'll close your question, delete it, and make it into a meme
@Skyl3r we're mostly nice people except for the occasional soul stealing
help how 2 juic avocad
i have try for fifteen minute and still no juic
Well, you can say that, but I know my eyes aren't deceiving me.
How can you be sure?
12:05 AM
@Skyl3r Is that true? I'm sorry to hear that. We're a very funloving community but we have a lot of rules that are not at all obvious at first. If you're thinking of making a challenge you could put it in the Sandbox. If you're crafting an answer, you can ask for feedback in here.
How Can Mirrors Be Real If Our Eyes Arent Real
Good question.
Many of the folks here, myself included, are always willing to help people out.
I've actually had too much religious and metaphysical debates to care if I'm sure right now.
@Skyl3r we never have those here so you can stay!
(but we do have a lot of tabs vs. spaces debates)
12:07 AM
Alex A., yeah it's actually true. It seems very easy to go wrong asking a question. I understand why most codegolf stuff is downvoted when it is downvoted, but when I start venturing into topics I'm not comfortable with, it's game over.
Spaces are obviously superior
Definitely tabs
Spaces forever
get out
I got it
12:07 AM
git out
Do you know how annoying it is accidentally hitting tab too many times and then having to type 4 or 5 backspaces? or CTRL-Z?
@Maltysen Screenshat
@Skyl3r i'm with you man, tabs are the best
12:08 AM
@Maltysen Wait, really? I thought we were friends D:
I've actually never understood why anyone would like spaces.
Me neither.
For their objective superiority
I can't see any benefits. Is there any?
12:09 AM
@AlexA. no offense, why?
@Doorknob @AlexA. has betrayed you and spaces and has gone to the side of tabs
@Maltysen well, thats gonna get some anger.
Don't believe him, @Doorknob.
Can't you just shift-tab if you accidentally tab? Or is that just a Visual Studio thing?
Alex is wrong
12:10 AM
WE HAVE THE EVIDENCE: i.stack.imgur.com/4cCsV.png
@Doorknob Alex confessed.
Is shift-tab more convenient for you then backspace?
3 hours ago, by Easterly Irk
@flawr ಠ_______________UNK_____________ಠ
This got belated stars.
What's stars ._.
@AlexA. per your space usage: ಠ_______________UNK_____________ಠ
12:11 AM
tabs are better.
Sorry for the beginning.
Spaces are better because they offer more fine-grained control of indentation
Eh, no.
12:12 AM
You can set the size of tabs...
@Mego why would you ever want that
I can't imagine why you would want one indent to be 5 spaces and the next to be 2
@Maltysen golf
tabs are one byte too.
12:12 AM
Specifically Python golf
@Mego If you need that much precision in your indentation, you're either (a) doing an art project or (b) doing something incredibly wrong.
Tabs are one byte too
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ (a) is correct too often
@EasterlyIrk do you record everything you do on your screen for instant evidence?
@Mego ._. I think (a) falls under (b)
12:13 AM
Are stars basically used as upvotes?
Yes, but they're trivial.
@Skyl3r yes, but much more irresponsibly.
@Mego oh. I concede that tabs are rubbish for ascii-art.
12:14 AM
Okay, I see.
@Skyl3r They are, but that's not their purpose. Starring a message is supposed to mean "this message is useful and/or important", but really here it means "this is a gif of a cat/goat" or "this is ironic because this message is complaining about stars not being used properly" or "this is a really bad joke/pun"
@Mego really digging for some stars there, eh ;P
> this is ironic because this message is complaining about stars not being used properly
I'm still holding out hope for a stars-to-rep conversion feature
Twice now I've wondered where in the world this music was coming from before realizing that somewhere up in my plethora of tabs, I've been rick rolled.
12:16 AM
@Optimizer Yep.
I run it 24/7. /s
@Skyl3r rofl
@Skyl3r That is a very starrable post.
@EasterlyIrk o_o
welcome to the 1 gold badge club.
Q: When is a language-specific tag appropriate?

tacIn @Doorknob's Tag Categorization Project, there's an answer outlining language-specific tags. The answer notes the format of these tags' wikis: This challenge is related to the _____ language. Note that challenges that require the answers to be in a specific language are generally discourag...

I still have 0 golds
12:19 AM
I'll probably get fanatic and electorate on the same day :P
Yay! I finally get fiber in my apartment next month!
I have 4 gold on main and 2 on meta.
@mınxomaτ What kind of fiber? Cotton?
@AlexA. Plastic optical fibers. Carrying 300D/200U instead of my measly 16/1 connection atm.
I don't know what that means.
12:24 AM
Fiber optics for internet
It means fast
Rather than pushing electrons through copper wire, it transmits data by shooting photons through a reflective tube
So single-bit transmission speeds are on the order of the speed of light
How many/are any of you entrepreneurs?
12:26 AM
@Skyl3r What do you mean exactly?
How many ways can you interpret that?
I have never started my own company
I own one company and hold shares in another. I guess this counts.
Tech related?
The closest I've gotten is starting an open-source project that I think a grand total of 5 people (including myself) have contributed to
12:30 AM
@Skyl3r Yes.
I (well technically my father) have a company that we made to hold the about $12 of app revenue from the apps and stuff i've written
that probably doesn't count
Hmm, I was just interested. I've been trying to start one and I feel like my business guy is a shady character.
Haha, I just broke $20 from ads on my app a few days ago.
Is he also slim?
Nah, but he's short
If so, could he please stand up?
12:32 AM
I'm sure we have an SE community for that somewhere
@Skyl3r Why? (I have quite a bit of experience with rogue business partners (and mitigating them)).
He's repeatedly assured me and the other developer that there's a good verbal contract binding us and that we don't have anything to worry about.
seems legit
you should hold a video call with him and all of us and we can judge if he's legit or not
He also seems to put a lot of effort into buying our friendship. Like buying us drinks and candy...
Haha, as much as I would enjoy that...
12:35 AM
@Skyl3r Aside from the candy bit that sounds like standard business brown-nosing
@Skyl3r Doesn't seem legit at all. You have to do everything in writing. Make sure you have at least an e-mail concerning every single business decision (no matter how small). For long term agreements, make contracts.
That doesn't exclude a friendly and healthy relationship though ;)
Yeah, the contract is a work in progress. He's resisted sending emails at every turn. He insists that sharing information verbally is a good way to do it and if I don't remember then I just have bad retention skills.
information != decisions.
@Skyl3r secret tape recorder?
Okay, /s/decisions/information
Yeah, we'll see. I can't imagine anything too terrible happening in the immediate future. We don't have a product ready for sale yet and he has no access to the work in progress.
12:38 AM
@Skyl3r There is really no such thing as "verbally binding", except for very few exceptions. But those can only be judged by a lawyer, since this is usually a complex problem. To prevent lawyers and general confusion, make notes, let him confirm them, and send mails whenever possible.
Okay, I'll do that.
@Skyl3r That's fine. Make sure to have them sign contracts before trading any code / products. Anyway, you should all have signed a (mutual) NDA by now, no matter what you've discussed.
Yeah an NDA is a good idea. I'll have a discussion with him about that.
Why do I feel like the captain of a sinking ship.
@Skyl3r Make sure you use at least a template from an independent party. I can recommend you sources if you want, but you'd have to write me a mail for that (since that depends on "what tech" the business is about).
The best test for sincere business partners is giving them a NDA to sign and refuse to share any information or to carry on if they don't sign or want to make huge alterations. Of course, always stay kind and sincere yourself ;)
Oh, I'm always kind and sincere.
I believe I can find a good NDA
Do you know what's ridiculous? Jelly. I can't even believe my eyes half of the time I'm looking at solutions.
12:51 AM
I'm still trying to find Jelly's weakness
@Mego Verbosity
@Skyl3r Welcome to PPCG. There's pretty much a throne on which sits a few languages that are best suited to knocking down the other languages and being a rep whore.
I've noticed rapidly.
Good! You'll do fine.
12:53 AM
It used to be GolfScript and J. Then CJam and Pyth came along and knocked them down a few pegs. Now it's Jelly time.
MATL also has it's moments
I pretty much only answer questions that interest me now. No one votes on the languages I use anyway :D
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ why :|?
@Doorknob It's annoying af
12:54 AM
Against Pyth, you at least had a semblance of a chance at winning.
I noticed the amount of hate in here: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/9/…
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ so you can't win with your language of choice. Who cares? I golf in Rust all the time.
@Doorknob s/language of choice/any other language/
I do care because I want to win sometimes.
12:56 AM
and you can win, in non-esolang-territory
or even in JS-land
One win I have, because the question did not have a lot of attention.
@Doorknob You call it winning, I call it settling for par.
well... that's your problem
to put it bluntly
why don't we see more "token" golfing?
is it because tokens are hard to define?
@NathanMerrill pretty much
May 1 '15 at 13:16, by Martin Büttner
atomic code golf is such a broken challenge type.
12:57 AM
@Doorknob duh? was it ever implied otherwise?
I generally pretend such languages don't exist.
@Doorknob I think it's a bit more interesting without esoteric languages.
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ yes, you are implying that Jelly being short is a bad thing
well, in what cases does a "token" not make sense?
If that's too hard for you to do manually, maybe you could make a JS script to filter them.
12:58 AM
@Skyl3r okay, then just don't pay attention to them
@Doorknob Never.
And that people use it to rep whore.
@Doorknob I don't unless I want to feel incredulous.
I think that's kind of a rude assumption to make.
People may just enjoy the language.
12:59 AM
Not my problem.
Not your problem.
Python is probably as good for someone who wanted to rep whore.
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ so why are you complaining about it
Nobody's problem.
@Doorknob I wasn't. You asked me, I answered.
7 mins ago, by Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ
@Skyl3r Welcome to PPCG. There's pretty much a throne on which sits a few languages that are best suited to knocking down the other languages and being a rep whore.
Languages, not jelly.
Besides, that comment was in levity.
(I need to have a tired account. Like people have drunk accounts >_>)
1:01 AM
@AlexA. He does have a point, though. Around here, popularity of languages is directly proportional to their ability to provide the shortest code.
Sure, some people may just enjoy Jelly/Pyth/CJam. But I think a lot of people use them because they want to win.
I disagree completely. Interesting and/or well golfed Python answers tend to get tons of votes.
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ yeah, sure. ":|" towards Jelly aside, point is, the negative connotation you're attributing towards languages that are actually quite impressive and that people spent lots of time and effort on comes across as a bit... I don't want to say "insensitive," but.
@Doorknob Why are you making it your problem? I have an opinion, and you have a problem with that.
isn't a tag for scoring the number of tokens in your language, it assign points values to certain operators
1:03 AM
Don't get me wrong, Jelly is a super-cool language. I just think a large part of its popularity is due to it being good at code golf, rather than its impressiveness as a language (which it should be popular for).
(the tag wiki says "tokens" but the challenges do something else)
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ compare it to me claiming that nobody should use JavaScript beacuse it's a horrible language, or something
@Doorknob Well everybody would agree with you there /s
It's rather insane.
@Doorknob That would be considered a joke and chat would move on. Why don't you? Anyone can dislike everything they want. And a smiley is not really offensive ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I'm with @CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ here.
1:05 AM
Thank you.
@mınxomaτ right, and I'm not saying that Conor should learn to program in Jelly, or even upvote Jelly answers
@Doorknob yeah, I hate JS... ._.
@Doorknob just not to call it a language used solely by "rep whores"
(disclaimer: I have never written a byte of Jelly code)
I programmed a JS engine and still kind hate JS because of weird syntax quirks :D
@Doorknob That's not at all what he said. He said (in jest) that Jelly is a good language to "rep whore" with.
1:07 AM
Yeah, it's weird.
I (and maybe some other people) explained why I don't like golfing languages here
Deny it all you want, but shorter answers get upvoted way more often than clever answers
anyone know how to set RUST_BACKTRACE=1 ?
@Mego which I don't deny
google just has a bunch of pages where people complain that this isn't the default
1:09 AM
@Liam just... like that
You could alias cargo='RUST_BACKTRACE=1 cargo' if you want
no, it's an environment variable
@Mego Or answers with (more) effort put into them.
RUST_BACKTRACE=1 cargo run
Actually I'm not sure whether the alias will work
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ That's included under "clever" for me
1:10 AM
Ah, I see.
well just typing RUST_BACKTRACE=1 didn't pop any errors... so i guess that was it.
in Bash?
actually, I'll be right back; have to go eat dinner
I was thinking it was an option to pass with cargo run
1:11 AM
For a while I was striving to be asexual, but I realized the world needs more of me.
@Doorknob how do I run your vim answer?
@Skyl3r What
I didn't see the eso vs purist conversation going anywhere, so...
It's more like golf vs nongolf
1:13 AM
@WotADong Type a test case into the editor, go to normal mode, enter the commands.
I'd rather think of myself as more pure.
@WotADong I cringe every time I see your name.
@Skyl3r There are some pretty cool (and ungolfy!) esolangs out there.
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ will it make you cringe less if I make it small caps?
I ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) every time I see your name, @WotADong.
@WotADong Yes.
1:14 AM
> E488: Trailing characters
I get that error when I run the vim program
Oh no
I clicked "save changes to all communities"
<cr> is carriage return
This reminds me of when I accidentally remotely rebooted the president of my employer's company because his last name was showing up right next to my intended victim :(
rebooted his computer*
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ fixed
even running: :s/[']//g`
throws an error
> E486: Pattern not found: [`']
1:17 AM
When he walked to my desk, that was probably the most terrifying moment in my life. "Hey Skyl3r... Are you doing some work on the server or something?"
@WᴏᴛADᴏɴɢ Did you put a test case in the editor?
@AlexA. yeah
Try something for me. Close and reopen vim. Hit escape, enter SomeThing w1th, apo'strophe's and' punc]tuation, and escape again.
Then :s/[`']//g
I just tried it and it worked fine for me
After that %0|%0 thing, I'm done running unlabeled code. No matter how innocent.
@Skyl3r He calls you Skyl3r?
1:20 AM
Of course not.
@AlexA. I agree that well-golfed and interesting Python answers some get tons of votes, but many golfing language answers get tons of votes whether or not they are interesting or well-golfed
@feersum I'm really doubtful you can rep-whore in python as effectively as someone who FGITW's in a golfing language by memorizing the built-ins and writing short answers that just chain a few of them
part of me wants to try this just to try to prove a point, but then I don't really want to be doing that
I would accept this challenge.
@xnor Beautiful points.
@WᴏᴛADᴏɴɢ Oh! Ignore that and keep typing the rest.
That's normal.
1:22 AM
@AlexA. oh ok
It's just what vim tells you when you enter a regex and there isn't a match.
It looks a lot more pissed off than it actually is.
Tags that encourage nongolfing languages
Literally everything that isn't .
perhaps people should make "expanded" versions of golfing languages
Fastest code and king of the hill are two that come to mind.
1:23 AM
basically, convert each character into a word
Code challenges with scoring that doesn't rely on length
@NathanMerrill talk to @CoolestVeto about his Vitsy's verbose mode.
your code is a bunch of words that "compiles" into a shorter code
@AlexA. wait I thought fastest code was just a myth
1:24 AM
@WᴏᴛADᴏɴɢ I don't know what you're doing but I can't reproduce it.
That sounded rude, I didn't mean to be rude. I just can't tell what the problem is.
@AlexA. ok, I guess I'm just stupid then :P
Someday, the world will fall under an apocalypse, and the Goflers will unite under the Perfect Order and will tell our sons and daughters of the glorious golden age under which fastest-code was still around and not a myth.
we can score by executable size
(which disallows interpreted languages, unless they can be compiled into a .exe or similar format)
1:27 AM
For the same code, different compilers will produce different executable sizes
that's easily solved
Is it?
you designate which compiler/OS
Not everyone has that specific compiler or OS though, so they wouldn't know how to target it appropriately to be competitive.
just like I would have a hard time running bash scripts on my windows
or powershell on my linuxbox
1:29 AM
That's just code golf with a language restriction (to machine languages).
Well, not exactly..
it's like that except worse.
its not. It's actually measuring information density
um what?
code-golf is a thing because it is an attempt to measure information density
how much can I do with the least amount of space
however, with builtins, we are saying more than actually can fit in that much space
which is why executable size can be a thing: it compiles the languages down to a common language with the same builtins
1:33 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

DowngoatRandomly Spell A Word Wrong Inspired by this CR question Spec What the probabilities are: 50% chance of spelling something wrong 50% chance of removing a random character otherwise, duplicate a random character The chance for removing/duplicating a given character in the input should be th...

That's not different than any other language-specific code golf, except that executables have a lot of very bad properties relative to this site.
e.g. being both OS- and architecture-specific, having most of the size used by required headers, and the difficulty of detecting malicious code.
TIL you can replace substrings in Batch.
you wouldn't actually post the exes, simply the code/size. I agree, they aren't actually feasible, not just because its hard to test (which I think is not the real reason), but because people don't want to have to compile their language every time they change their code to see if it got shorter
Writing in an assembly language is the only feasible choice if you wanted to be competitive there.
it'd be the golfscript of languages
1:40 AM
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

DowngoatRandomly Spell A Word Wrong code-golf string random Inspired by this CR question Spec What the probabilities are: 50% chance of spelling something wrong 50% chance of removing a random character otherwise, duplicate a random character The chance for removing/duplicating a given character ...

regardless, if we wanted "accurate" comparison between languages, you'd have to do compiled
because its a common ground they can all stand on
also, if we ever got a firm set of rules around what a "token" is, Mathematica would win every time
@NathanMerrill No.
A huge chunk of langs can't even be compiled.
right, which means that they can't be compared to other languages
1:47 AM
Which makes this idea insanely impractical.
which is why I said its not feasible
It's an utterly pointless comparison, even among those that can be compiled.
Compilers generally aren't designed for golfing.
I'm making a point that if you really want to compare information density between languages, you have to do compiled size. If you don't want to/can't do that, then the compiled size of your interpreter+size of your code
1:48 AM
Though I think we need a demoscene-like scoring category (scored by binary size), minus the art element of course.
Do we have a tag for that?
also, if we were to restrict languages to the ones listed on Wikipedia, why would people hate that?
Because it would rule out all of the languages people have put time and effort into building?
restricting language X or Y doesn't make sense (because you can simply write another), but only allowing certain languages is a whole different ball game
It would have no pro side at all.
what about the years of complaining that "I don't like all of these golfing languages"
1:53 AM
It's a (literally) arbitrary restriction. "Let's that this community-moderated list of languages from a third party site" ...
its only arbitrary unless people agree to it
literally everything on this site is arbitrary
write a program without the alphabetic letters
or do X without Y
Anyone can edit Wikipedia. They could just add the golfing languages to that list.
"You may only use languages made before the year 2000."
@AlexA. that's easy, simply link to a revision
@AlexA. Technically, original editing is forbidden, but that's what I mean.
1:57 AM
People have been trying for 5 years to "solve the problem of golfing languages." They aren't going to disappear. The best that can be done is think up an arbitrary way to exclude them.
I'm not advocating this.
Or do what @Martin is trying to do and create a challenge that no one golfing lang can do alone.
We need a programming idol that everyone looks up to to denounce eso languages

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