ELL's Cabin

Damkerng T.

01:51

1

Q: American's 'I've got' and British 'I've got'

So when I think I heard an American said “I got (something)”, actually he/she said “’ve” after the “I” and it’s present perfect? And this is the time where present perfect should be used? And then it's not really possession but is more about acquirement, right? (I’ve learned from Swan’s Practica...

Got is a bit of mystery!

Damkerng T.

03:30

Hmm... Garner's Modern American Usage is about $50 at Kinokuniya!

But only $19.04 on Kindle!

Maybe I'll buy its Kindle edition.

BTW, I'm still at page 4 of 時をかける少女...

I decided to slow it down a bit and work at Japanese grammar a little more. I think that's the best in the long run. (I re-read the book from the start and feel like I can read page 1 a bit more easily now.)

Oh, and CGEL on Kinokuniya is a little cheaper than on Amazon.com!

Man_From_India

04:16

@DamkerngT. now here is the pleasure :-) Ubuntu is super customizable :-) and it's far better than Windows...I really started to like it. Don't know how long this liking will last. Yes it's Ubuntu...South African Ubuntu :-D

I customized it to give a Mac look.

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Wow, that's exactly the look of Mac OS X!

Man_From_India

Oh talking about Africa, just remembered the little girl Hannah :-) hope she is doing well :-)

now I have to teak it a bit about the animations and all :-)

Damkerng T.

@Man_From_India Aww... the latest news on CBC doesn't look very good for Hannah. -- sad

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. :O what's the news by the way?

Damkerng T.

Hannah Day. cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/…. Are we talking about the same Hannah?

Man_From_India

04:22

@DamkerngT. Sorry not this one :-( that Hanna who used to visit chatroom here...

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see! Sorry for the confusion!

Man_From_India

it's okay :-) she doesn't visit here any more

Damkerng T.

I haven't seen her for maybe two months already.

Hope she's doing great with her studies.

Man_From_India

yes ...

oh just noticed about ur old msg, are u about to buy CGEL?

Damkerng T.

Maybe. I'm thinking about it. :D

Man_From_India

04:27

it's too costly here..the last time I bought any book of similar price is a book on Error coding during digital communication :-) but that was even 1 or 2 k cheaper than CGEL

Damkerng T.

On Amazon, it's about $251 (shipping cost excluded), but on a local store, I think I could buy it at $245. So it's just really a little cheaper.

Man_From_India

hmm here in indian rupee it's around 16,000

though I have a pdf :-) as i don't read the full book, only occasional topics from it, I am okay with it.

Damkerng T.

So it's bout the same price everywhere.

:D

Man_From_India

yup :-)

Fantasier

Interesting pair today: "เข้มแข็ง"-"แทง" @DamkerngT. "แข็ง" has a short vowel length, obviously (because of the ไม้ไต่คู้)

Damkerng T.

04:41

Oh, my grandma pronounced แทง like แท็ง!

And my aunts in their Southern accent would pronounce แทง somewhere between แทง and แท็ง.

Fantasier

Interesting

Since you recommended me to "open my ears," I simply leave the BBC radio on all the time my computer is on. Hope that helps :P @DamkerngT.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Judging from my own experience, that doesn't help much. :P

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Why not? You told me to listen without caring about comprehension?

That's exactly what I'm doing O|---|

Damkerng T.

I mean, passive listening could help us to get familiar with the accent.

But what you really need is active listening without caring about comprehension.

That is, focus on sounds, not words.

Fantasier

Hmm, can you elaborate?

Damkerng T.

04:46

Hmm... maybe it's easier to use metaphors.

Let's say speech is somewhat like handwriting.

We all can read printed text just fine, right?

Printed text is like careful speech. Careful speech is relatively easy to understand, even for an absolute beginner.

But real speech is like handwriting. So it could be something like this:

Now, that's a bit more difficult to read, right?

Fantasier

Yes.

Damkerng T.

And some handwriting is really, really hard to read.

Being an engineer, I came up with a two-step approach to tackle this problem.

1) See the lines, not letters. (metaphorically)

Fantasier

That's so engineer-ish

Damkerng T.

2) Get ourselves familiar with handwriting styles we're likely to have to deal with.

@Fantasier Once an engineer, always an engineer, they say. :-)

Man_From_India

What about a doctor's prescription :P

Damkerng T.

04:54

@Man_From_India I think we should consider this problem first: can the doctor read his or her own prescriptions? :P

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Still not fully understood. :\

I mean I get the metaphor, but not how to do that, exactly lol

Man_From_India

@DamkerngT. ha ha ...really...:D

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Okay. The first step is about enhancing the power of your sense of hearing.

Fantasier

I've heard nurses or whoever that needs to read a doctor's prescription simply see the symptoms and the first letter of each medicine, and then guess the medicines.

Damkerng T.

Naturally, we train ourselves to hear words, i.e something meaningful, but not the sounds.

But when we're so little, i.e under 2yo, we can hear sounds clearly. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to learn our first language.

Some say we can't do that anymore as an adult. Maybe they're right. Though I think we can enhance our ability.

Fantasier

04:57

@DamkerngT. Yes, I learnt that in Language Acquisition.

Damkerng T.

Just like we can't tell which wine is which, but wine tasters can. How can they do it?

Obviously, they didn't learn to do it before 2yo. :-)

Fantasier

Uh-huh. That's a little haunting because it was in my finals. lol

Man_From_India

ha ha :D

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier So I experimented this on myself, i.e. I basically did a similar thing a wine tester would do with their wines, but I did it with sounds.

And as far as I can tell, I improved a lot, even though I'm relatively old, linguistically.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. I see, I see.

I used to listen to sounds, too.

Damkerng T.

05:00

So, first. Catch the sounds, not the words.

@Fantasier I'm pretty sure you must've done something similar, 'cause I know that 90+% is not easy.

Fantasier

But the problem is, if I listen to sounds, I start realizing words aren't pronounced as I expect.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Try to relax, and accept the sounds as they are.

Fantasier

For example, that "practising" yesterday, /p/ was pronounced rather voiced.

(Or so I heard)

bbc.co.uk/learningenglish/english/course/intermediate/unit-2/… You probably want to hear it.

Damkerng T.

Recognize every "surprise" you get, compare the surprises to the intended sounds (subtitles are really useful for this purpose), and tell your brain this is how real people really write their words with their voices.

Fantasier

But that also varies from person to person, doesn't it?

Damkerng T.

05:03

Hmm... I can't play the audio on that page!

Fantasier

Wait a little :) It's loading.

Damkerng T.

I worry that my Flash player...

Oh, I remember it now. I can't play BBC Radio on this machine either.

I have to use my iPad.

Fantasier

There are some surprises with these "Intermediate Level" recordings on the site. Because I sometimes miss a whole bunch of words for some reason, although they were actually easy to parse.

Maybe I was trying too hard and didn't relax. Or maybe it's my concentration problem. Don't really know :O(

Damkerng T.

trying the audio...

Oh, yes. It sounds like a /b/ indeed.

Fantasier

Yeah, and that's one of my problems!

Damkerng T.

05:12

Step 2 is about dealing with the styles and imperfections in real speech (read "real world").

Though I'm sure that the speaker's intention was /p/, and perhaps all native speakers would hear it as /p/. :-)

Fantasier

Of course. Because they are native speakers :P

Damkerng T.

I've tried to listen to Thai clips sometimes, and the same phenomena exist too! :-)

Yes. :D

All sorts of imperfections are out there in the wild, if only we listen to them. :-)

Fantasier

So.. what should I do?

Damkerng T.

Just accept all these "surprises", and make mental notes, and move on.

The more you know about these "surprises", the fewer surprises you'll have. Make sense? :-)

Fantasier

Make sense.

And what do you think about the other problem, the miss-a-whole-bunch-of-word problem?

Damkerng T.

05:16

@Fantasier I think our brain basically have to do two tasks at the same time (for adult advanced learners).

Fantasier

It happens so often I've started to think it's not just accidents.

Damkerng T.

That is at the low level, we have to catch the sounds, and at the higher level, we have to grasp the meaning.

@Fantasier I think I know the problem well enough.

It usually happens to me too when I couldn't catch the sounds and tried really hard to catch the sounds.

So I missed the sounds after those unintelligible sounds.

Fantasier

Oh, and strangely, the difficulty levels don't seem to matter much. If it's gonna happen, it happens, no matter how easy.

Damkerng T.

nods

I guess you usually can recover after the "whole-bunch-of-word" problem at the next utterance, right?

Fantasier

Of course. It's usually just a clause, or a phrase.

But, you know, really frustrating when it's something easy.

Damkerng T.

05:20

nods -- I think you usually can do that because of two reasons.

One is finally your brain lets it go. :P

The other is that the small pause gives you a very good chance to start over (and move on).

I have another technique that help, but it's even more demanding that hearing sounds.

I call it "buffering".

The larger "buffer" you have, the longer duration you will be above to stash your surprises to be processed later.

I think you must have played this game.

A computer will show you a random sequence of digits, one digit at a time.

After the sequence, you repeat the number.

Fantasier

Yes, I have.

Damkerng T.

Yes, it's the same game.

But with sound.

How long can you keep an unknown sequence of sounds (let's say it's Tibetan) mentally?

Fantasier

Virtually none.

Damkerng T.

(It doesn't have to be Tibetan, but the more unfamiliar the language is the better.)

@Fantasier Hmm... I bet you can keep a few syllables. :-)

Fantasier

I cannot really parse unfamiliar sound and keep it in my head.

In case you're wondering, downloads.bbc.co.uk/learningenglish/features/6min/… 4:33 - 4:45 I missed the whole "let's not have a shower scene here (in the studio)"

Damkerng T.

05:26

@Fantasier Ah, I think I listened to only the first minute of the clip.

Fantasier

No, no, that's another clip

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Okay, then don't think of it as a language. Think of it as a song!

@Fantasier I see. -- trying...

Fantasier

As a child when I listened to Japanese songs, openings to Sentai shows, I heard like [tuke:tuke:tuke:tuke:::::] or something like that

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Have you ever watched Stargate?

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. No, why?

Damkerng T.

05:29

Hmm... okay. How about Avatar?

Fantasier

Yes.

Damkerng T.

Try to focus on the non-English part. :-)

Fantasier

You mean the na'vi part?

Damkerng T.

If you can watch it again.

When they speak Navi, I mean.

Fantasier

I see, I see.

Damkerng T.

05:31

@Fantasier Weird. It starts at 4:40 on my clip!

Fantasier

Oh, no, that's normal.

I gave you 4:33 because I didn't catch "Hitchcock's" (But I did catch "Psycho")

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see. :-)

Fantasier

That's probably relevant ... or not

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier I have a better chance, I think, because I know both Psycho and Hitchcock. :-)

But yes, unfamiliar names will require you to recognize sounds as is.

Fantasier

Another thing, should I repeat the whole recording where I didn't catch everything, or just the part I didn't catch, or just let go?

Damkerng T.

05:37

Just the part you didn't catch (i.e. "surprises") is enough.

Make sure that finally you can hear the surprise as it really is before moving on to other clips.

(You don't have to clear all the "surprises", though. Just the ones you think worth it.)

By doing that, you turn these "surprises" into something just "trivial".

FWIW, on my loudspeakers I hear it as Can you imagine Hitchcock('s) Psycho without the violin music?

No matter how I want to hear that, which makes more sense.

The "('s)" after Hitchcock is ambiguous to me.

I know I can hear more on my headset.

But I try to keep my environment a bit more realistic. (Lots of noises in the background, the volume is not too loud, etc.)

Basically, in listening, I tend to trust my ears rather than my grammar, vocabulary, and such.

Fantasier

I'll try to do that :)

Damkerng T.

Your ears are the best!

(tool for learning languages)

Freddy

06:19

A word in this sentence is misspelled. What word is it?

Damkerng T.

@Freddy Umm... Which is it?

Freddy

misspelled

:p

Damkerng T.

Oh, misspelled is misspelled!

Poor misspelled. It's misspelled every time!

Freddy

hahaha

one more

What is the longest word in the English language?

Damkerng T.

Don't tell me it's "longest"!

:D

Freddy

06:31

nope

Damkerng T.

Hmm... what is it?

Freddy

it is smile

how, can you guess?

Damkerng T.

I give up!

Freddy

There is a mile between the first letter and the last letter.
:D

Damkerng T.

LOL!

Damkerng T.

07:10

Ah, I think this illustrates well what non-native speakers have to deal with in listening tasks.

How easy is it for you to read that sample?

It's 100% English. It's unlike doctor's handwriting, because it's perfectly readable. :-)

But if you are not familiar with this handwriting, I think it's unlikely that you can read it comfortably.

Freddy

08:02

@DamkerngT. I can read about 30%. like "wrote my journal" "dressed my hair" etc..

Damkerng T.

Isn't it challenging?!

Freddy

preety much

specially underlined stuff

Damkerng T.

And you can see the paper and the ink clearly, right? :-)

Freddy

yes, it is all about handwritting

Damkerng T.

@Freddy There are two underlined words.

(Or so I think)

Freddy

08:06

ahh I see

other are "t"

Damkerng T.

Yes! :-)

Freddy

This happens when someone writes very fast

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure how fast she wrote that, but I think it was probably not too fast.

Freddy

@DamkerngT. can you read that(each and every word)?

Damkerng T.

No!

I just found it a few minutes before I posted it.

But I think I'm getting more and more used to it. :-)

Freddy

08:12

Can you write like that?

Damkerng T.

Definitely not! :-)

Freddy

@snailboat can definitely read that! :)

Damkerng T.

I doubt that. :-) Though I think she could recognize more words than me at first sight, and should be able to get herself familiar with the handwriting style much sooner.

in English Language Learners, Jan 10 at 14:33, by Damkerng T.

Some of my handwriting.

in English Language Learners, Jan 10 at 14:07, by Damkerng T.

Freddy

08:36

@DamkerngT. I can clearly read your writing :)

Damkerng T.

@Freddy Oh, even my really casual one (the last one)?

:D

Maybe it's a bit easier to read because you know what is there. :-)

Freddy

Try something which I don't know :)

Damkerng T.

Maybe later. :-)

Freddy

it is easy because first 2 to 3 letters are readable

only last word i thought it was "lenna" instead of "luna" :-)

Damkerng T.

How about that? :-)

I wrote that on iPad. My handwriting on iPad appears to be a bit different from my handwriting on paper!

Freddy

08:48

I have read about problem from wikipedia the page likelihood principle..

Anonymous

Well, I can read Damkerng's handwriting more or less effortlessly

Freddy

yes true

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yay!

Freddy

BTW which app are you using to write that? @dam

Damkerng T.

Let me see...

It's Noteshelf.

Freddy

08:50

thank you

Anonymous

That page earlier I can read most of but a number of words are difficult for me, so I'd have to spend some time working on it to transcribe it... It's quite hard to read

Damkerng T.

You're welcome! It was on iPad 2. On iPad Air, it will look much crisper.

@snailboat I think her handwriting is highly stylized.

Anonymous

Some of it is difficult because of the spelling

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Anonymous

> bringing me a bouqay of orange flowers

Anonymous

08:54

That's what it looks like to me

Damkerng T.

Oh, it's nosegay!

Anonymous

Hah!

Anonymous

No wonder, then

Anonymous

What's a nosegay?

Damkerng T.

Something smaller than bouquet?

> a small bunch of flowers, typically one that is sweet-scented.

Anonymous

08:55

See, I can read most of the words but every five or six words I get confused!

Damkerng T.

Like a non-native speaker on a listening task!

Anonymous

Well, using different parts of the brain

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

There are some similarities in the tasks

Anonymous

Both are heavily dependent on context and prior knowledge

Damkerng T.

08:57

nods

Anonymous

Bth r hvly dpdndnt n cntxt nd prr knwldg

Damkerng T.

Argh!

Anonymous

Reading that was probably easy for you

Damkerng T.

True!

prr is probably tricky, if I haven't heard its full version before.

Anonymous

The point is you used prior knowledge to solve it :-)

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