ELL's Cabin

Damkerng T.

14:00

Ahh... I thought it was กรุงศรีฯ

Fantasier

Well, early Rattanakosin.

So could be late Ayuddhaya.

Damkerng T.

nods

Fantasier

It's the most hated required course at my faculty.

Introduction to Language, that is :-P

Damkerng T.

@snailboat DoA webcomic is kinda cute! :-)

Fantasier

Mainly because it's linguistics, which is science, which is exactly what most of us wish to escape from.

Damkerng T.

14:04

@Fantasier Well, I remember I was assigned to write something similar to a chat engine (both server-client) on UNIX in C in 3 weeks, when we knew absolutely nothing about C (not even its name!). The only thing our teacher gave us besides the assignment was the name of the book. :-)

That was how we learned about K&R. :-)

(Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie)

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. We had three books. One in Thai (not really useful really) Two in English (the useful ones). The thing is, the English ones' examples are, not surprisingly, English. BUT the exercises and exams are Thai, and not contemporary Thai, old Thai, like, really old.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Fantasier

I expected to have more practices before doing exams. :\

And the lecturers... If I had never read anything linguistics before the course, I would have had no idea what they talked about.

Damkerng T.

Aww

Fantasier

They are great at conducting their studies and all, but not teaching.

Damkerng T.

14:08

Teaching is a skill.

Just knowing is not enough for teaching.

Fantasier

Oh, I also get to see some strange languages in the course's exams, too. Interesting enough.

Damkerng T.

I guess you must've used the faculty's library very often. :-)

@Fantasier curious!

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Some African languages (I think). And some Tai languages as they are one of the lecturers' expertise, the one who reconstructed the Proto-Tai phonology

Damkerng T.

Oh!

Fantasier

And... some languages I don't even know where they're from! LOL

Damkerng T.

14:12

snailboat told me a few days ago that African languages are quite like English. :-)

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Well, often enough, but mainly not for what I study.

I've borrowed some book on Syntax before, I think.

Forgot the name.

Damkerng T.

An English book?

Fantasier

And some literature... You see, we have various kinds of books :-)

@DamkerngT. Yeah, it's a textbook.

Some of my friends also borrow novels. We have quite a lot of those.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier I'm sure there are lots of books there!

LOL

Fantasier

I'm so sad now that I think about the Thai Literature final exam :'(

I wish the marker didn't cut all the mark on the question :-P

Damkerng T.

14:16

:D

Was this the first or second semester?

Fantasier

Second. I'm going to be a sophomore!

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Fantasier

It's so fast I've been here more than a year!

Damkerng T.

You did well in the first semester, I guess.

Fantasier

I got one B+, one B and the rest are A

Damkerng T.

14:19

@Fantasier Time indeed flies.

@Fantasier Oh, we have B+ now?

Fantasier

I wish I could maintain the grades at this level this semester.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Hmm... I guess that would mean that your average grade was above 3.6 and you would get a certificate. :D

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Yes. B+ on Spanish I (Mainly because of my ears and my laziness) B on Eastern Civilization (Too much to memorize, and too little time I prepared :-P)

Damkerng T.

I mean there was no grades with a + or - in my days.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. I want to apply for the Honors Program. 3.75+ GPA is a prerequisite.

Damkerng T.

14:21

Your first-semester grade looks way better than mine. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, no, no, I said Afrikaans was, not "African languages", the majority of which are quite unlike English! :-)

Anonymous

Afrikaans

Afrikaans (/ˌaːfrɨˈkɑːnᵗs/ or /-ˈkɑːnz/) is one of the official languages of South Africa. It is a West Germanic language spoken in South Africa, Namibia, and to a lesser extent, Botswana and Zimbabwe. It is an offshoot of several Dutch dialects spoken by the mainly Dutch settlers of what is now South Africa, where it gradually began to develop independently in the course of the 18th century. Hence, historically, it is a daughter language of Dutch, and was previously referred to as "Cape Dutch" (a term also used to refer collectively to the early Cape settlers) or "kitchen Dutch" (a derogatory...

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, they aren't the same thing?

Anonymous

Afrikaans is a language

Damkerng T.

Oh, Afrikaans is one language!

Anonymous

14:23

It's closely related to English

Damkerng T.

See, I saw an s and thought it was about the whole language family!

English is very tricky! :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Afrikaans is the name of Afrikaans in Afrikaans

Anonymous

etymonline.com/index.php?term=Afrikaans&allowed_in_frame=0

Anonymous

The s at the end is like English -ish :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That sentence looks almost like a tautology!

Fantasier

14:25

I like that sentence. So many Afrikaanses.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

And yet, it's not! German is not the name of German in German!

Anonymous

Japanese is not the name of Japanese in Japanese!

Damkerng T.

Oh, Afrikaans is a Germanic language of South Africa!

Fantasier

But Thai is the name of Thai in Thai!

Damkerng T.

14:26

@Fantasier True!

Anonymous

None of us ignorant Americans know what the h is there for, though

Anonymous

It's okay because we happen to aspirate it anyway :-)

Fantasier

Well, the official current romanization of Thai copies almost everything from the IPA.

Damkerng T.

It's rather unfortunate that some people think it should be pronounced like thigh.

Fantasier

(Sort of)

Anonymous

14:28

@DamkerngT. Wow! I didn't know that

Anonymous

Then again, I've known Thai people practically my whole life

Anonymous

My home state of Illinois has a silent s in its spelling

Anonymous

Some people in other states pronounce it as a /z/, though :-)

Fantasier

So Thai is [tʰai]. Phuket is [pʰuːket] and so on :-)

Anonymous

Well, I know that.

Anonymous

14:29

I know like, a few things. See? I'm proud of myself.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat But some of my German friends pretended to not know that!

Anonymous

I have all sorts of other types of ignorance, though :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Wow!

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. You could be accused of being racist :-P

But when I think again it's only racist when the accuser think it's racist, thus making them racist, too.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Could be, but it was just a bad joke as an excuse for those people who come here looking for thighs!

Fantasier

14:32

:-P

Suade

Hello

Damkerng T.

(None of my friends came here for that reason, as far as I know, though. :-)

Hello, @Suade!

Fantasier

Hello!

Damkerng T.

Then again, one of them has already got married to a Thai. No, two of them!

Fantasier

Because Thai people are kind :-)

Damkerng T.

14:36

:D

Fantasier

(Wait, will I be accused of stereotyping by saying that?)

Anonymous

Well, marrying someone who speaks a different language is one way for you to learn their language. Or for them to learn yours. Or both

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I wonder what language they really use at home.

But I know that one of the two can speak Thai much much better after the marriage. :-)

I don't know much about the other one.

Suade

Sorry to intrupt your chatting but I have this question

Anonymous

Well, I think it still takes a lot of effort, but being around a native speaker and speaking freely with them all the time at least presents an opportunity :-)

Anonymous

14:38

@Suade You aren't interrupting

Fantasier

My British teacher's been here for more than 10 years now. He married a Thai woman. But his Thai is not so good, comparing to other foreigners I know.

Suade

Have or get + sth+ p.p , ,, when should I use have and when should I use get..Is there any specific rule to follow

Damkerng T.

@Suade Ah, it's a popular topic of the day!

Anonymous

@Fantasier Some people are surrounded by native speakers but never really learn

Fantasier

@snailboat Yea... He sometimes says he wished he had spent more time learning Thai.

@Suade What's P.P?

Anonymous

14:40

Presumably "past participle"

Damkerng T.

past participle form.

Fantasier

Oh, right.

Anonymous

I try to avoid that abbreviation since a PP is a Preposition Phrase

Damkerng T.

I remember we have a question about have something done and get something done.

Fantasier

I think the get version is less formal?

And there are some nuances I learnt before, but have forgotten. :-P

Anonymous

14:42

We probably won't really be typing up a comprehensive answer to that question in chat, I'm afraid

Damkerng T.

still keeps looking for that answer...

Fantasier

4

A: I had something done vs I got something done

Meaning: In the context of hair cuts specifically, you can use both without concerns as it is (usually) obvious that people get their hair done by others. (Unless it's very obvious someone did it themselves :)) However, in other situations (especially formal) I would be a little bit more attenti...

We've got this one, but it's not quite comprehensive.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

The answer is in the comment, imho.

Okay, according to PEU, it can be causative, can be about experience , and get can be about completing work on something (I think it implies by ourselves or by the subject of the sentence.)

Suade

Thanks a lot.. شـــــــــــــكرا جزيلا

Damkerng T.

[on everyone's behalf] You're welcome!

@Fantasier I think a ต้อง sentence can be rephrased with ให้.

Fantasier

14:57

@DamkerngT. เขาต้องไปทำงาน. => ?????

Damkerng T.

ให้มันไปทำงาน

Fantasier

ให้เขาไปทำงาน?

But that would generally require a subject?

And what about epistemic modality? มันต้องไม่ใช่อย่างนั้นแน่ ๆ?

Damkerng T.

I think it could be rephrased with something else.

ข้าว่ามันไม่ใช่อย่างนั้นดอก

This is like internal must vs. external must.

(i.e. have to)

Anonymous

What does internal / external mean in this context?

Damkerng T.

I must do this. <-- internal

I have to do this. <-- external

Anonymous

15:01

You mean whether you're being compelled to do it by an outside force?

Damkerng T.

Internal Thai must is closely related to speculative Thai must, I think.

@snailboat Yes!

It seems like rephrasing ต้อง with ให้ only works with the case of external must (i.e. an outside force).

Anonymous

Thanks, this is a new term for me :-)

Damkerng T.

(Instead of talking about the necessity, we talk about the external force directly.)

@snailboat I think it only exists in my idiolect. :-)

Anonymous

I'm familiar with the deontic-dynamic distinction

Damkerng T.

You must not park here <-- deontic?

Anonymous

15:06

@DamkerngT. Hold on, I found a quote in Narrog, let me type it up :-)

Anonymous

> If deontic modality is stripped of the notion of an external authority imposing action (or its 'discourse-orientedness' in terms of Palmer), it is often labeled as dynamic modality, that is, modality expressing 'inherent potential or inherent necessity/inevitability' (Nuyts 2006: 4), or 'neutral' and 'dynamic' notions (Palmer 1990: 36-37).

Anonymous

> Van der Auwera and Plungian (1998: 80) labeled this kind of modality 'participant-internal' modality, as opposed to 'participant-external' modality. The following would be an example of dynamic (inherent/participant-internal) must:

Anonymous

> > (10) I mustn't forget my keys (otherwise I won't be able to get into the office).

Anonymous

Narrog goes on to talk about how the distinction between the two can get rather muddied, and how some linguists propose a cline between deontic and dynamic

Anonymous

(Modality in Japanese, Heiko Narrog, p.12)

Damkerng T.

15:11

Ahh

But the 'participant-internal' (or external) modality is for English too, right?

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

The term isn't used in CGEL's description of modality

Anonymous

I'm really a fan of Narrog's, by the way

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. I think that's a little different. It's somewhat softer.

Damkerng T.

> Anyway, my basic idea is that the way That uses modal markers nowadays must have been influenced by other languages, very likely Indo-European ones. And quite possibly, English!

@Fantasier A stronger version would be something like หาได้เปนเช่นนั้นไม่

Fantasier

15:15

@DamkerngT. And that would be a little too strong?

Damkerng T.

Probably. :-)

Fantasier

It's assertive.

Or maybe I'm too much influenced by English.

Anonymous

Darned English!

Damkerng T.

I don't think we really used มันต้องไม่ใช่อย่างนั้น 400 years ago.

Perhaps not even 100 years ago.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Of course not.

Anonymous

15:17

How do you curse the name of English in Thai?

Damkerng T.

Except in maybe some registers.

@snailboat Umm... Hmm...

Anonymous

Sorry, I'm being silly :-)

Fantasier

How do we curse the name of any language in Thai? That's a tricky question :-P

Anonymous

In Japanese, you can just personify it

Anonymous

英語め〜！

Damkerng T.

15:18

We have some expressions but it's for people rather than the language.

(I'm thinking about ฝรั่งขี้นก)

Fantasier

Maybe use general rude words like /mâŋ/?

Damkerng T.

For any language in general, maybe ภาษาอะไรของมันวะนี่

Fantasier

I feel it's inappropriate to write the word in Thai script here.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier Yes, but I feel like it's a bit too strong.

Anonymous

Oh, I didn't mean to really be rude

Anonymous

15:20

I was just being playful :-)

Damkerng T.

ภาษาอะไรของมันวะนี่ is about as mild as "What the heck language is this?"

Fantasier

Interesting...

Damkerng T.

I also think that /mâŋ/ is probably about 50-60 yo.

Before that, it should've been /ha/ (ห่า).

Fantasier

I think /hà/ was originally the name of a disease?

Damkerng T.

Yes, so it became a curse word exactly for that reason.

Fantasier

15:27

Interesting fact I learnt yesterday: it was used to refer to at least two different diseases.

At different times.

Oh, now that I think about it, /mâŋ/ is indeed newer.

It's a shortened version of /mâ.mɯŋ/ "your mom"

Damkerng T.

nods

Fantasier

Which I guess is a very recent curse word.

Damkerng T.

I speculate that because my grandma never used /mâŋ/.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. facebook.com/pipadkrajaejun2/posts/10153505908395348 About ห่า.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think its collocate is ห่าลง.

Fantasier

15:31

Funny. I said "fact," (Interesting fact) but in fact I don't know if it's really a fact. As it's something happening in the past.

We can but guess.

Damkerng T.

I can only report what I can remember, along with what I think are reasonable guesses.

Fantasier

:-)

Damkerng T.

For example, I remember that when I was 8, some of my friends indeed said /mâŋ/.

Fantasier

I don't want to go to the territory of "what are facts?" sorts of questions... Too much philosophy in two semesters already :-P

Damkerng T.

LOL

Fantasier

15:35

I wonder, is "Faculty of Letters" a popular title for a faculty in the English-speaking world?

Damkerng T.

Faculty of Letters somehow makes me think of Her (2013).

Fantasier

(That's what my faculty literally translates to.)

Damkerng T.

What's the name in Thai?

Fantasier

อักษรศาสตร์ :-)

You've forgot already?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I thought you meant your major!

Fantasier

15:37

xD

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I don't think this อักษร really means letters.

Fantasier

My major is English (Or so I hope)

@DamkerngT. In Spanish it's "La Facultad de Letras" (Faculty of Letters)

Damkerng T.

It could mean script or character as well, I think.

@Fantasier Interesting!

Fantasier

And it's not an uncommon Spanish faculty name :-)

Faculty of Letters seems to be unusual in English, though.

Damkerng T.

Oh, yes! I remember that a lot of things we got from the West are from other countries and languages as well (like Portuguese, French, Spanish, etc.)

I remember that we got ประแจเลื่อน or กุญแจเลื่อน from Portuguese.

Fantasier

15:40

Faculty of Liberal Arts would be a more appropriate name for my faculty, though. Or better, Faculty of Humanities, because that's exactly what we study.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah, from the missionaries?

Damkerng T.

I wonder if there is a word for เลื่อน (slide) in the Portuguese word for wrench.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Also ขนมปัง (bread)!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think that too, but perhaps it was mostly through trades.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A wrench like the tool?

Damkerng T.

15:41

@snailboat Yes.

Anonymous

It's called a chave inglesa ("English key"), I believe

Damkerng T.

Literally, the word for wrench in Thai ~ sliding key

Anonymous

Like Spanish llave inglesa :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's interesting!

Anonymous

Actually, in English, Allen wrenches are also called Allen keys

Damkerng T.

15:42

@Fantasier That, too. I like pang!

@snailboat Oh, I didn't know that!

Anonymous

I have lots of Allen wrenches because of my instruments :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Is it possible that Allen --> เลื่อน because เลื่อน is pronounced "leun" (which is close enough to "Allen").

Fantasier

That seems pretty unlikely.

Let's see...

Anonymous

Allen key dates back about 100 years

Anonymous

So it's fairly recent

Damkerng T.

15:48

Another possibility is that we called it "key" too, but it didn't look like a key, so we add "sliding/slidable" to the word because one main feature of the wrench is its adjustability.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. ประแจ means กุญแจ (according to the Office of Royal Society's dictionary)

Damkerng T.

Yes, my grandma called it (a key in general) ประแจ (and ลูกแจ for ลูกกุญแจ). -- PS. She usually introduced herself ฉานข้นหยะล่า. :D

Fantasier

I think the Royal Society Dictionary should start including more detailed etymologies.

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier I'd been looking for one in my childhood. Unfortunately, I'd never found one.

Fantasier

More than just the languages words came from.

Linguistics studies are actually much ahead.

Anonymous

15:53

Yay, linguistics!

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. Looking for what?

Yes, linguistics!

Damkerng T.

@Fantasier An etymology book.

Fantasier

@DamkerngT. There's none :-), according to one lecturer on Thai at my faculty. The best we have now is the RSD where only langauges of origin are included.

Damkerng T.

So it makes sense that I couldn't find one!

0

Q: An expression or word for saying having said something from the viewpoint of someone else

Let's say I wrote the following in an essay. Hello, Anna. I love you Now I want to write something like this: This line I've written was supposedly said by Anna's boyfriend, but Anna's boyfriend didn't actually say it himself. It's a creative work of mine pretending to be Anna's boyfriend. ...

Oh, interesting!

Fantasier

I should get back to the word-pairing work. The deadline is tomorrow.

Damkerng T.

15:59

@Fantasier LOL -- Finish it quick!

I'm not very sure about the OP's intention.

Maybe they want something like: Anna's boyfriend would have said, "Hello, Anna. I love you."

Anonymous

Oh, well, it seemed pretty clear to me, but I guess I could have made a mistake

Damkerng T.

I guess it's either my previous guess or they want these sentences got corrected: This line I've written was supposedly said by Anna's boyfriend, but Anna's boyfriend didn't actually say it himself. It's a creative work of mine pretending to be Anna's boyfriend.

> This sentence was creatively written as if it were said by Anna's boyfriend, whom I pretend to be, though he had never said it.

But that would be a sentence correction, or proofreading.

Fantasier

16:15

I'm at page 204 (out of 275) and I've had almost 4,000 word pairs. This is impressive O_O

Going back

Damkerng T.

Impressive, it is!

Fantasier

A lot of short-long pairs.

I'm surprised at how much language changes :-P

Damkerng T.

:D

Oh, talking about my grandma makes me think of one important thing. A word doesn't always have to be only short or only long.

For example, I'm pretty sure that my grandma used both ชั้น and ช้าน (for ฉัน).

Fantasier

Huh? But don't we perceive only as either short or long?

Like how we perceive sounds as phonemes.

Damkerng T.

It's like in English, sometimes a sounds like "uh", sometimes it sounds like "ay", right?

Anonymous

16:23

I don't know anything about the Thai example

Anonymous

But I do know you don't always notice phonemic distinctions

Damkerng T.

I can't spell out when exactly she used the long one and when exactly she used the short one.

Anonymous

Besides which, phonemicity isn't and all-or-nothing affair

Anonymous

Like, Japanese has phonemic consonant and vowel length, but sometimes the distinctions are neutralized

Damkerng T.

That's quite similar to my grandma's case, I think!

Anonymous

16:26

And of course, words can change over time

Anonymous

格好いい kakkoo ii can become カッコいい kakko ii

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Let's see

Anonymous

English has a contrast between /t/ and /d/, between /p/ and /b/, between /k/ and /g/

Anonymous

That contrast is neutralized after, for example, /s/, right?

Anonymous

So there's no meaningful distinction to make between the two

Damkerng T.

16:28

more or less, yes.

Anonymous

Well, completely

Damkerng T.

nods

(I can't think of a word with "sd" in it.)

Anonymous

Native speakers of English can't tell the difference between school and um, sgool :-)

Damkerng T.

Maybe it's because it isn't allowed, phonotactically.

Anonymous

Well, that's just a matter of analysis

Anonymous

16:31

Some people would actually rather write spin as sbin :-)

Anonymous

John Wells wrote about this somewhere, but I can't find the link

Anonymous

I found it!

Anonymous

phonetic-blog.blogspot.com/2011/04/…

Anonymous

:-)

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

16:35

Search for "commonplace to point out"

Anonymous

John Wells is the author of the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary

Anonymous

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