English Language Learners

Ilan

2:01 PM

hm, the writing tips are very interesting

//15 min out //

Anonymous

So my handwriting might be a bit unusual because of all the times I've had to re-learn it

Anonymous

2

Anonymous

There, I used a colored pen :-)

Damkerng T.

A green pen!

Anonymous

That's what it looks like when I write relatively fast. I could write neater if I slowed down

Damkerng T.

2:04 PM

Oh, you can write it fast in that handwriting! Neat!

Anonymous

This is the handwriting I use for taking notes.

Anonymous

You can see my 'O' loops around at the bottom instead of the top :-)

Anonymous

But the letters are a mish-mash from different styles.

Anonymous

I re-learned my 's' for the Palm Pilot!

Anonymous

Now it looks like that.

Anonymous

2:06 PM

I'm not entirely happy with it.

Anonymous

I think that's where my 'd' comes from, too.

Anonymous

I re-learned my lowercase 'y' for the Palm Pilot, and now it's cuter. I should have written something with a 'y'.

Anonymous

(Not cuter on purpose, it just turned out that way. I'm not trying to make my handwriting cute :-)

Anonymous

I don't think I join many letters together.

Anonymous

If I write 'tt', I use one horizontal line across both of them, though.

Damkerng T.

2:07 PM

Anonymous

Oh, I like your handwriting!

Damkerng T.

That's my handwriting when I don't think nobody else will have to read it. :-)

@snailboat Thanks!

Anonymous

I'm usually the only one who has to read my own handwriting

Anonymous

So I try to go easy on my future self :-)

Anonymous

It looks like you learned cursive.

Anonymous

2:09 PM

I never did.

Damkerng T.

I learned cursive first. Then I found that printed handwriting is easier to read. So I mixed them together.

Anonymous

I was supposed to. (They still taught cursive back then.) But I couldn't make my hands make the motions.

Anonymous

For me, it was hard enough just tracing the print letters the way I was supposed to write them.

Anonymous

Cursive was too hard.

Damkerng T.

I think cursive is slow. :(

(But my teachers said it's supposed to be fast. :-)

skullpatrol

2:10 PM

I just found out google has a built in etymology feature :D

Anonymous

It's funny that only ten years later, I was able to begin learning to write Japanese the 'right' way without problems

Anonymous

@skullpatrol Yeah?

Anonymous

How's it work?

Damkerng T.

@skullpatrol Ah! I thought everyone already knew about it.

skullpatrol

@snailboat Use "etymology" first

Anonymous

2:12 PM

I'll have to set a browser to English...

Anonymous

Hmm

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I like that in 'tt'. :D

skullpatrol

google.ca/…

Anonymous

Ah, it's the same data they use for their dictionary (Oxford Dictionary of English)

Damkerng T.

Yes!

Anonymous

2:14 PM

But they put the time into making a visualization for it.

skullpatrol

@DamkerngT. how long has it been out for?

Damkerng T.

Oh, maybe you have to be a non-native speaker to expand the result of "define word".

@skullpatrol I can't remember when, but I remember that I've seen it's there since when I started using "define word".

skullpatrol

5 years?

Damkerng T.

I'm sure I know about "define word" less than two years. :-)

skullpatrol

icic

Damkerng T.

2:18 PM

Figure 1: Step 1 (after searching for "define English")

Anonymous

I've only once in my life had a need for cursive

Damkerng T.

Figure 2: Step 2 (after clicking on "Translations, word origin, and more definitions")

Anonymous

When I took the ACT, they (rather inexplicably) made us write a statement in cursive saying that we wouldn't cheat

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Only once! When was that?!

Anonymous

In doing so, they forced me to copy off my neighbor's sheet

Anonymous

2:19 PM

Since I had no idea how to write it myself.

Damkerng T.

LOL

That rule would've defeated its own purpose.

Anonymous

Yeah, it was definitely hare-brained on the part of the test designers.

skullpatrol

cursive gets too messy

Anonymous

I can fake cursive, but it ends up unreadable.

skullpatrol

there used to be penmanship classes

Anonymous

2:22 PM

Yeah, when I was little, they still taught cursive in schools

Anonymous

I couldn't do it, though

Anonymous

What do you suppose it says?

Damkerng T.

That's a tough one!

skullpatrol

:/

Anonymous

2:24 PM

"cursive gets too messy"

Damkerng T.

Oh! That's true!

skullpatrol

I think shorthand is all cursive

Anonymous

No, no

Anonymous

Shorthand is designed to be read

Anonymous

It's very different

Anonymous

2:26 PM

D'Nealian

D'Nealian is a style of writing and teaching cursive and print (block) handwriting for English. It is a derivative of the Palmer Method and was designed to ease the learning of cursive and print handwriting. D'Nealian was developed by Donald Thurber, who developed the system while teaching in a primary school, and was first introduced in 1978. The name of the script comes from Donald's first name contracted with his middle name ("Neal"). The system was designed as a method to alleviate the problems with teaching children the standard Zaner-Bloser script method and the subsequent difficulty ...

Anonymous

This is the form of cursive they used to teach in US schools in the 80s (when I was a child)

Anonymous

I couldn't do it―I'd taught myself how to write one way, then they made me re-learn print handwriting, and then immediately after tried to make me learn a third set of handwriting

Anonymous

And I never bothered to learn it as an adult since there's no use for cursive in daily life

Anonymous

Plus, it looks ugly.

Anonymous

I don't want to write the General Mills logo every time I write a capital 'G'.

Anonymous

2:29 PM

It looks like some kind of weird duckboat.

Ilan

i write d"nealian

as I see

with monkey tails

this what I call "childish"

just have realised that!

Damkerng T.

Anonymous

Oh, you have really pretty handwriting!

Damkerng T.

Thanks!

My cursive is a bit rusty. So is my lettering.

Anonymous

I can't tell

skullpatrol

2:35 PM

google.ca/…

Anonymous

I like the way cursive 's' looks like a shark fin

Ilan

the issue with this style is that "t" and "f" look similar

Anonymous

Oh, do they?

Damkerng T.

I wouldn't think so. -- curious

Anonymous

I never noticed

Damkerng T.

2:37 PM

Oh, maybe the capital T and the capital F. In that case, a little.

Anonymous

Ohh

Ilan

try it

u will c

Anonymous

I don't know capital cursive letters

Damkerng T.

@Ilan Did you mean lowercase or uppercase?

Ilan

lower

lowercase

Damkerng T.

2:42 PM

2

Ilan

brown box!

:)

Anonymous

That's so neat!

Anonymous

Is jumps supposed to look like that?

Damkerng T.

Oh, my! I forgot the s!

LOL

skullpatrol

see, cursive makes you lazy

Anonymous

2:45 PM

I thought you might have haplographized

Anonymous

@skullpatrol Yes! Everyone join the anti-cursive campaign!

skullpatrol

:D

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It looks like so.

Anonymous

Mostly because the 'p' looks like it has a bit of sharkfinnery to it.

Anonymous

And as we all know, 's' stands for 'shark fin'

Damkerng T.

2:51 PM

:-)

Anonymous

(I know cursive 's' because it's part of my name, which is the only thing I can write in cursive)

Damkerng T.

The cursive lowercase s looks indeed very different from the print one.

Anonymous

I know it can swim because it's attached to a shark, but I'm not sure how the other letters stay afloat.

Damkerng T.

I guess t could stay afloat with its top hat!

(Wondering what if Superman uses cursive S...)

Anonymous

When I look at the 't' in your 'the'

Anonymous

2:55 PM

It looks kind of like a person standing, like 大!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Say, I forgot. Does the McGurk effect work on you?

Damkerng T.

Only sometimes!

Which is strange.

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

Anyone else who wants to try, here's a sample video

Damkerng T.

3:04 PM

I think if I focus on the sound, if won't, but when I don't focus on anything, it probably will.

Ilan

amazing video

Damkerng T.

If I look at his lips, I will hear a funny "va".

Anonymous

My housemate is legally blind (she can still see with the aid of powerful glasses, but not very much) and the effect doesn't work on her

Damkerng T.

If I look at his eyes, I will hear an unaspirated "pa".

Ilan

try to play the sound but dont look at the video

Anonymous

3:08 PM

Presumably, growing up, she never had the opportunity to developed integrated sensory processing

Ilan

the sound is the same all the time

Damkerng T.

(I think he tried to pronounce "ba" in an uncommon way.)

Anonymous

So it always sounds the same to her no matter what

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That makes sense.

@Ilan Keep your eyes on his lips and you might get something weird. :-)

Ilan

ya

Damkerng T.

3:14 PM

2

Q: using the verb"blame"

I am not to be blamed Many accidents were blamed on the snow be to blame If a ship sinks, the captain is to blame The increase in crime is a sad reflection on our society The increase in crime is, sadly, to be blamed on our society I am wondering about how is the function of applying the ve...

verb

> I am wondering about how is the function of applying the verb blame, that is, I cannot differentiating when to use it as an intransitive, or passive verb.

I don't think we normally use blame intransitively.

This reminds me of one of Araucaria's answers.

Anonymous

No, but blame does occur in a particularly unusual construction

Anonymous

As the OP illustrates: "If a ship sinks, the captain is to blame ___ ."

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think Swan mentions this in PEU, too.

Anonymous

You can't normally do this with transitive verbs.

Damkerng T.

I thought it's a fixed phrase.

Anonymous

3:19 PM

Or, well, any verbs. :-)

Anonymous

Sure. You could put it that way.

Anonymous

Like with most transitive verbs, there are limited intransitive uses

Anonymous

"I blame you!" "Blame away. I don't care."

Damkerng T.

Nice example!

Ilan

do you think I can write lowercase "l" just as a bar, without a loop?

"l" i mean as in letter

Damkerng T.

3:23 PM

If we have only "The captain was to blame," it will sound like something is missing, I think.

Anonymous

As you can see from my example, that's what I do.

Ilan

because sometimes it looks like e

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes: to blame for what?

Anonymous

But I print, I don't use cursive

Damkerng T.

@Ilan I think it depends on your handwriting.

@Ilan Wait, do you mean a lowercase i without a dot?

Ilan

3:25 PM

no

Anonymous

Ilan said "as in letter"

Ilan

i mean l

Anonymous

To avoid confusion, you can spell it: "lowercase ell, as in letter"

Ilan

loose, letter, lazy

Damkerng T.

Oh, I thought you wrote "lowercase I". :-)

Ilan

3:26 PM

oh, nice

u c - it's confusing

Damkerng T.

I will blame it on the font. :-)

The font was to blame for the confusion.

Ilan

You know - if the examiner does not like some particular handwriting on IELTS they can lower the mark

Damkerng T.

Still, I think it depends on your handwriting. In print handwriting, we don't loop it, I suppose. In cursive, you can make it more different from "e" by making "l" taller.

Anonymous

They should let you type.

Anonymous

Your handwriting has nothing to do with how good you are at English.

Damkerng T.

3:29 PM

@Ilan That doesn't sound reasonable.

Anonymous

My 'l' is way taller than my 'e' :-)

Ilan

Because the main purpose of the exam - to ensure the candidate can manage with their English

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I suppose!

Anonymous

I think more than twice as tall.

Anonymous

@Ilan When you fill out forms in English, they always tell you to print anyway.

Ilan

3:30 PM

without ambiguous issues

u'r right

Anonymous

In COCA, [get] ahold of has 353 results, while [get] a hold of has 392

Anonymous

Looks like the spaceless version is nearly even with the spaced version

Damkerng T.

That's very surprising!

Anonymous

But in BNC, we find 15 for the version with a space and 0 without

Anonymous

Even accounting for the smaller size of BNC, that's a significant drop

Damkerng T.

3:34 PM

That reminds me of another pair: a while and awhile.

Anonymous

It seems get a hold of is characteristic of informal AmE but not so much of BrE

Anonymous

Where get hold of (without a) is standard

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

You can say get hold of in AmE, too.

Anonymous

But I like get a hold of better.

Anonymous

3:42 PM

By the way, Luna is starting to turn stripey.

Anonymous

When she hatched, she wasn't stripey at all:

Anonymous

I should take a new picture! :-)

Ilan

hhh

Damkerng T.

@snailboat She's still small. :-)

Anonymous

3:45 PM

Luna still isn't big enough to live with the adult snails yet

Damkerng T.

Oh! What would happen if she lived with the adults?

Anonymous

She could escape through the gap between the top of the cage and the lid!

Damkerng T.

Ah, I didn't expect that reason!

Anonymous

There are some other reasons to keep them apart.

Anonymous

Babies can't recognize snails that are orders of magnitude bigger than them as snails.

Anonymous

3:48 PM

They think their shells are moving calcium blocks for them to eat :-)

Anonymous

So the babies might nibble on the adults' shells.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

If we compare along one dimension, the baby is maybe 1/20th of the size of an adult

Anonymous

They start out really small! :-)

Damkerng T.

Quite different from humans!

Anonymous

3:55 PM

Humans at birth already weigh more than most adult snails!

Damkerng T.

Hehe! I meant proportionally, but you sure knew that.

Anonymous

Hehe, I did :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I found something interesting.

> Writing test advice
Follow this Writing test advice, and make sure you know how to manage your time.
Write your answers in pen or pencil. You may write entirely in capital letters if you wish.
http://takeielts.britishcouncil.org/prepare-your-test/test-day-advice/writing-test-advice

Anonymous

Snails grow sort of exponentially due to their shells

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, their spirals also grow exponentially!

Anonymous

3:58 PM

So they start out very tiny―their shell at birth / hatching time is the tiniest part of the spiral!

Anonymous

(Some snails are born but most hatch)

Damkerng T.

I wonder if we could see them.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Writing entirely in caps is a trick to write legibly and quickly

Anonymous

I still do it if I have to write very fast

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

3:59 PM

(If I can't keep up, I start skipping vowels)

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's new to me!

Ilan

oh, nice link @DamkerngT.

Anonymous

Oh, sure. If you strtgclly omit vwls, U cn stll rd nglsh prtty wll

Anonymous

Don't try to leave out every vowel, though! Otherwise, words like I will disappear! :-)

Anonymous

Incorporating some symbols can help a lot, too, like → for 'leads to' or ∴ for 'therefore', etc.

Damkerng T.

4:01 PM

An interesting approach for writing fast.

Anonymous

The set of symbols that's ideal for your own notes depends on what you're studying

Anonymous

But these days, I'm rarely forced to write that fast, so I just go as fast as I can while remaining legible :-)

Damkerng T.

Nowadays, students around here would simple ask their teachers for powerpoints.

Anonymous

Most slides are terrible.

Anonymous

Some people are good at it, but I think PowerPoint on the whole has damaged teaching

Anonymous

4:05 PM

The worst is when a programmer uses slides as documentation

Damkerng T.

nods -- I guess a lot of classes would be sort of like a slideshow event. The teacher would read their slides to their students. After the class, the students would copy the slides back home. And that's about it.

Anonymous

I have never encountered a set of slides that is actually adequate as documentation for anything

Anonymous

Copying down exactly what you see or hear is a very poor note-taking strategy

Anonymous

It's much easier these days, especially with laptops and so forth

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

4:06 PM

But it doesn't lead to better retention

Anonymous

(Which is not to say that copying things is never helpful, of course!)

Anonymous

(I think I'm a fan of your Big Imitation strategy :-)

Damkerng T.

Ah, my secret fan!

Anonymous

Hee

Anonymous

1

Q: Rule of thumb for using "the"?

I would like to know if there is any rule of thumb that helps a nonnative English speaker to decide on when to use "the" and when not? I am aware of many cases. But sometimes I am not sure, for example: "If you have enjoyed the scientific papers, then you are ..." or "If you have enjoyed scient...

usage articles definite-article

Anonymous

4:12 PM

"If you expect the listener to be able to identify what the noun phrase refers to, use the"? :-)

Damkerng T.

I remember I posted such a thing once.

Anonymous

I've come to like "identifiability" more than the traditional term "definiteness"

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yep!

Anonymous

That's my best attempt at a rule of thumb, anyway

Anonymous

I feel like it could be made more precise if I loaded up on jargon

Damkerng T.

4:13 PM

@snailboat I guess we could run into a problem with "identifiability" when it comes to "generic".

"identifiability" is still a nice term anyway.

Anonymous

The tiger is an animal with four legs that goes 'rar' a lot. ←　I expect the listener to be able to tell that I'm talking specifically about the set of all tigers :-)

Anonymous

Rar!

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

Mohammad

Hi, I have a question
why in the following sentence we used "was able to" not could

With a sudden burst of adrenaline, he was able to lift the car off the child's leg.

Anonymous

I don't actually know what sound tigers make.

Anonymous

4:15 PM

That's a very good question. Why don't you post it on ELL?

Damkerng T.

@Mohammad Do you have Swan's Practical English Usage?

Mohammad

@DamkerngT. I did not understand you ?

Damkerng T.

Ah, I take it that you don't have Practical English Usage. (It's a book.)

Mohammad

aha , No

Damkerng T.

Never mind that. The key idea is that in a specific event in the past, we don't normally use could.

Mohammad

4:18 PM

aha

Anonymous

That sounds like a good explanation.

Mohammad

@DamkerngT. thanks for explanation , but where can I find the book

Damkerng T.

I believe Swan would explain it more carefully.

@Mohammad You're welcome. I think the book is not that hard to find. Amazon has it, too.

Mohammad

thanks

Damkerng T.

But I remember that I've heard that students can get it real cheap in some countries.

Mohammad

4:22 PM

maybe , I do't know

Anonymous

In Japan, it costs more than in the US!

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

There's that app version, too

Damkerng T.

nods -- I use its app version.

Anonymous

It's like $30 for a print copy here.

Damkerng T.

4:25 PM

I remember that I bought it 30 something dollars when it just came out.

Ilan

hh can download for free in two clicks

Damkerng T.

Oh, well. That's up to you.

Anonymous

In India, it costs about $7.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I thought it was $3.

Anonymous

I looked just now and it says

Anonymous

4:26 PM

₹ 395.00 + ₹ 99.0 delivery charge

Damkerng T.

(Like I usually say, don't trust my memory too much. :-)

Anonymous

on Amazon.in

Anonymous

Which is US$7.83 at the current exchange rate

Damkerng T.

Still much cheaper than in the US.

Anonymous

Yeah.

Anonymous

4:27 PM

In Japan, it's about $40.

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's about the cost of the app version!

Anonymous

What? Really? I thought the app version would be cheaper than the print book

Anonymous

It says $39.99 in the App Store

Damkerng T.

No. It's more expensive. I bought it when it was came out so it was cheaper than $40, but still higher than $30. (Can't remember the exact price.)

Anonymous

But it costs less on paper!

Damkerng T.

4:29 PM

There is one good reason. They added sound clips to the book (I mean the app).

Anonymous

barnesandnoble.com/w/practical-english-usage-michael-swan/…

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, nice!

Damkerng T.

Hehe. This is interesting. I wanted to say "when it just came out" but I typed "when it was came out"!

Anonymous

Ah, I didn't notice until you pointed it out!

CopperKettle

4:48 PM

An interesting question:

2

Q: what sort of verb is " had been used to do"?

Silent and terrified, the animals crept back into the barn. In a moment the dogs came bounding back. At first no one had been able to imagine where these creatures came from, but the problem was soon solved: they were the puppies whom Napoleon had taken away from their mothers and reared priva...

verb past-tense

Damkerng T.

A backshift of "did used to do"?

CopperKettle

@DamkerngT. I dunno. It looks strange. I've read the explanation by MARamezani, but it's unclear to me still.

I'm busy doing some other stuff though. (0:

Good evening all and laters (0:

Damkerng T.

5:07 PM

@CopperKettle Oh, sorry, I should've said "was used to do" rather than "did used to do". (I'm busy with other stuff, too.) Good evening!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Right, it would be "was used to do" if that applied here

Anonymous

It doesn't seem to, but then, it doesn't seem to be grammatical

Anonymous

With very minor changes, it would be grammatical in my version of English

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, I haven't read the post yet.

Anonymous

I suppose it might have been grammatical in the author's dialect at the time

Damkerng T.

5:23 PM

Hmm... using be used to is strange in that sentence.

Anonymous

5:47 PM

> The harness-room at the end of the stables was broken open; the bits, the nose-rings, the dog-chains, the cruel knives with which Mr. Jones had been used to castrate the pigs and lambs, were all flung down the well.

Anonymous

> It was noticed that they wagged their tails to him in the same way as the other dogs had been used to do to Mr. Jones.

Anonymous

> It did not seem strange when Napoleon was seen strolling in the farmhouse garden with a pipe in his mouth — no, not even when the pigs took Mr. Jones's clothes out of the wardrobes and put them on, Napoleon himself appearing in a black coat, ratcatcher breeches, and leather leggings, while his favourite sow appeared in the watered silk dress which Mrs. Jones had been used to wear on Sundays.

Anonymous

So there you go, three clearly purposeful occurrences of that construction

Anonymous

All in the same story

Anonymous

It must have been grammatical in the author's English

Laure

6:35 PM

@DamkerngT. @snailboat @CopperKettle @Maulik V Could you help me get "I am Charlie" in whatever languages you can write. Thai Japanese Russian Hindi... and whoever else reads this. All I can manage besides English is French Spanish German and Italian.

Damkerng T.

@Laura "I am Charlie" ผมชาร์ลีครับ. "My name is Charlie" ผมชื่อชาร์ลีครับ. (Both have approximately the same meaning, but because Thai has no copula be for "I am Charlie", its direct translation, ผมชาร์ลีครับ, could sound a bit too brief. I've already added a politeness particle ครับ, so it should be okay. I mentioned another version "My name is Charlie" only just in case.)

(PS. Actually, we could use คือ for the copula be of "I am Charlie", but it would sound quite arrogant, which I think is not what you want.)

Laure

@DamkerngT. Thanks. How has the Thai press translated the slogan that has taken on in France after the Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris. Taht's what I need. Is it ผมชาร์ลีครับ ?

CopperKettle

Good evening, @Laure! "Чарли - это я!", but better "Charlie - это я", because Чарли is a known name in Russian and associates with Charlie Chaplin.

Radio Freedom uses the form "Шарли Эбдо – это я"

The hyphen is the Russian zero copula

Damkerng T.

6:52 PM

@Laure If "I am Charlie" is a complete sentence, ผมชาร์ลีครับ is perfect. If it's just a quick introduction of a longer sentence, e.g. "I'm Charlie, bringing you a live report from ...", then the politeness particle will normally be moved to the end of the sentence: ผมชาร์ลี รายงานสดจาก ... ครับ.

Laure

@CopperKettle I've just realised I should have been precise. I want to know how the various newspapers throughout the world have translated the slogan that has taken on in France after the Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris. So, it's Шарли Эбдо – это я I gather ? Thanks

Thanks

CopperKettle

@Laure - judging by a quick google session, "Charlie - это я" is used widely, with "Шарли Эбдо - это я" used by some. This second sentence spells out the full name of the magazine to make it more understandable.

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